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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984

Vol. 348 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Inquiry into Placing of Listening Devices: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Woods on Tuesday, 28 February 1984:
That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established under the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Acts, 1921 and 1979 for—
1. Inquiring into the following definite matter of urgent public importance:
the circumstances in which listening devices were placed in a private house in Del-Val Avenue, Kilbarrack.
2. Making such recommendations, as the Tribunal having regard to its findings, thinks proper.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To add after "Kilbarrack", the following words:
"and other such incidences of telephone tapping or electronic eavesdropping which may be drawn to its attention; and to examine whether existing legislation offers sufficient protection to citizens against unwarranted intrusions into their privacy".
—(Deputy De Rossa).

Last night I was making a point with regard to the tardiness, vindictiveness and carelessness of the Government. Since then I had the opportunity to read the Minister's speech to the House and to read a transcript of his interview on the RTE 9 o'clock news. I am even more convinced of the need for a tribunal to be set up such as we call for in our motion. The Minister has raised many questions which need to be answered. I made a point last night which the Minister did not attempt to answer with regard to the delay by the Minister in acting on the instructions given to him by the Taoiseach to have the complaint made by Séamus Mallon on behalf of the Moyna family investigated by the Garda.

The Minister seems to be totally unaware of the urgency and national importance of having this matter clarified. It is very serious if the home of any citizen is bugged or if an attempt is made to bug it. It is much more serious from a national point of view to have a home used by the Deputy Leader of the constitutional Nationalist party of Northern Ireland bugged. Approximately this time last year the Minister was assuring the Irish people that the political performance of the Department of Justice was in his safe hands, that people could sleep in their beds at night and be assured that he would attend to every detail, that he would look after their welfare and they could rest easy.

Last night the Minister was asked by Seán Duignan on the 9 o'clock news whether he thought it had any implications for his continuation as Minister. He said: "No, I do not, but I am always aware, and I have said it publicly, that in the Department of Justice things happen over which you have no control and because they happen while you are Minister you are always politically at risk in such a Department". How different that is from his attitude 12 months ago, and since then, when he assured the Irish people of his total control over all the minutiae in the Department.

The Minister cannot have it both ways. He cannot hurl abuse at his predecessor and at the citizens of this land and, at the same time, hide behind this type of reply. He talked about misunderstandings with regard to the manner of the investigation. Why is it that the Garda will not investigate a matter unless the Minister specifically instructs them on the manner of the investigation? The Minister has to tell them to interview this person and that person. What sort of a ludicrous situation has arisen? The Garda are entitled to better treatment from the Department of Justice and the political head of the Department.

Those are the type of questions which need to be cleared up by a tribunal. Last night the Minister failed to clear up the question about the technical capacity of the bugging equipment. This is still confused and it needs to be clarified. It can be clarified only by setting up this type of tribunal we are calling for. I should also like the Minister to clarify whether a warrant was signed before or after 16 November. That has not been clarified.

In his contribution here last night the Minister was spiteful enough to throw out a suggestion about Provo involvement. He attacked us on the basis that we were supposed to take the word of the Provos rather than of the Garda. That approach should be beneath the Minister. On the 9 o'clock news last night the Minister was asked who exactly was responsible. He said that until we find the actual people who placed the bug in the house no possibility can be ruled out. Yet he is prepared to say definitely it was the Provos. He is not prepared to consider the suggestion made by Deputy Woods that quite possibly it could have been some maverick outfit within his own responsibility. He is not prepared to have that investigated. He said that is not the type of thing a tribunal could investigate.

Of course a tribunal could investigate it. A tribunal investigated Stardust. A tribunal investigated Whiddy. Many tribunals have investigated very serious matters. Very serious questions have been raised and the most important one concerns the Minister's responsibility. He is guilty at least of carelessness and tardiness and the Taoiseach is guilty of vindictiveness in his comments on Séamus Mallon. It is unworthy of this House that a former Member of the Oireachtas and Deputy Leader of the constitutional Nationalist party of Northern Ireland, a member of the Forum, should be under a cloud of innuendoes which the GIS have been spewing out over the past ten days and innuendoes from the Minister and the Taoiseach. A tribunal of inquiry is required to remove the cloud from Séamus Mallon and the Moyna family.

The Moyna family were spoken about here last night. They are entitled to protection by the State from the type of political charges and slurs which were thrown at them to protect the political necks of the Taoiseach and his Minister for Justice. This tribunal of inquiry is justified. Having flushed the Minister out after ten days into the Dáil and into his patty cake interview on the 9 o'clock news last night, more questions have been raised and deserve to be answered, and can only be answered before a tribunal of inquiry.

According to a revised timetable the Deputy has until 7.15 p.m. I then propose to call a Government speaker from 7.15 p.m. to 7.35 p.m., an Opposition speaker from 7.35 p.m. to 8.05 p.m., a Government speaker from 8.05 p.m. to 8.15 p.m. and a Fianna Fáil speaker to conclude at 8.15 p.m. The Deputy has five minutes more.

Thank you a Cheann Comhairle. This gives me an opportunity to continue to speak on a subject I was discussing last night, that is, the contents of the amendment proposed by The Workers' Party. I said last night that I saw considerable merit in the amendment which refers to "...other such incidences of telephone tapping or electronic eaves-dropping which may be drawn to its attention; ..." and, in particular, "to examine whether existing legislation offers sufficient protection to citizens against unwarranted intrusions into their privacy". Existing legislation with regard to telephone tapping was introduced at a time of fairly primitive technical advances. Since then we have seen a technological revolution and we have today no adequate protection for the citizen. We have no protection against microbugging of homes or cars or places of business. We have no protection against bugging of places of business and business procedures. We need protection to ensure confidentiality in regard to financial affairs. We have no such protection. This is something that a tribunal of inquiry could investigate with benefit to the State and to the individual.

It is very important that the law should protect confidentiality in regard to individual political associations. As the law stands there is no such protection. That is something at which a tribunal of inquiry could with advantage have a look. It would be something that would benefit the State. As things stand there is no confidentiality in the case of political associations. It would be right and proper that a tribunal of inquiry should have a look at that situation. We need controls with regard to the type of information being stored on computers. We need to know that in this year of 1984 Big Brother is not looking at us quite as much as we sometimes feel he is. Considering the matters we are discussing here this evening maybe he is. It would be appropriate for the inquiry to have a look at the whole question of what is happening in other countries in regard to legislation designed to protect the privacy of the citizen and what international treaty may exist which we could with benefit ratify.

One area I would be particularly concerned about is the question of the financial affairs of an individual. What black lists are held, for example, by credit card companies? What black lists are held by business companies? The citizen who appears on such a black list has no knowledge that his name is on it. A citizen who is the holder of a credit card and has a disagreement with a company finds himself with his card cancelled. His name is put on a black list and he will no longer receive credit from credit card companies. These are things the tribunal could look at.

This amendment has merit in it. To come back to the nub of the matter this Government owe an explanation to the Deputy Leader of the SDLP, to the family he stayed with and to the nation as a whole as to what happened, who was involved, who attempted the bugging. This can only be clarified in my view by the type of tribunal we recommend. The Minister has proved himself totally deficient as far as the performance of his duties are concerned in not following up for a period of two months this complaint by the Taoiseach and I suggest that the only course open is for the tribunal of inquiry we suggest to be set up forthwith.

I agree with Deputy Burke there should be no innuendo and no allegations and that holds for both sides. Both sides have equal cause to want to know the facts.

I propose to confine my remarks on the reported bugging of the house of the telephone subscriber concerned to my Department's direct involvement in the investigation of it and I intend to deal also with the reported tapping of that subscriber's telephone. I should perhaps open my contribution by stating that the Post Office investigation of the bugging incident falls into two parts—the inquiries made last November and some further inquiries made in the past week to clarify some points that had arisen from public comment.

I wonder could we have a copy of the Minister's statement?

I have no control over that.

There are copies on the way.

Checks show that there is a record that the telephone subscriber's telephone was first reported out of order on Saturday, 29 October at 10.36 a.m. The report was stated to have been made from another telephone in the Sutton area, the number of which was quoted. Only faults on high priority subscribers' lines get attention at week-ends and this subscriber's phone did not qualify for such treatment. Another fault is recorded as having been reported at 9.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 1 November, the first working day after the bank holiday. The name or telephone number of the person reporting the fault on the morning of 1 November is not recorded but according to statements in the news media the report was made by the subscriber himself. The relevant docket prepared by the staff in the fault report centre is noted to the effect "old person in house", "urgent". Both of these faults were reported to the telephone operating staff at the fault report centre. The two fault reports were passed by the telephone operating staff to the technician staff at the Belcamp fault repair centre on the morning of 1 November; the precise time is not recorded but it is believed to have been between 9.30 a.m. and 10.20 a.m.

The line is recorded as having been diagnostically tested at the repair centre on 1 November by the staff, and the circuit was found to be normal, giving a ringing tone but no reply from the subscriber. There was nothing unusual about this as many lines reported faulty are found to be working when tested by the repair centre staff. No further action was regarded as called for by the repair staff. There is no record of the subscriber's house having been visited by any repair staff that day and there would have been no need for them to do so in the circumstances.

I should perhaps explain at this point that it has been reported in the news media that one of the Department's staff who had been interviewed by the Garda had said that he had been told by the subscriber's wife that the phone went out of order on Friday, 28 October and was out of order on Saturday, 29 October, but "came back" on Monday, the bank holiday. It was claimed in the Sunday Tribune last Sunday that this could not have been so because it had not been reported out of order until Tuesday, 1 November. In fact, as I have already stated, the telephone was reported as being out of order on Saturday, 29 October, but no action was taken on the report until Tuesday, 1 November, the next working day. It is not abnormal for service to come back of its own accord and, indeed, no repairs were carried out on 1 November on foot of the fault reports made on 29 October and 1 November, the circuit having been found to be working normally when tested.

The next contact by the subscriber that I am aware of was made on Monday, 7 November, when he phoned the Department's depot at Distillery Road which does not cover his own area but where an official with whom he is acquainted works. This official was not there at the time and he spoke to another staff member. The latter understood the complaint to have been about loose wires and this was reported by the staff member concerned to the repair staff at Belcamp. In the belief that it was the external wiring leading from the pole serving the subscriber to the house that was involved, departmental staff visited the area on 7 November and inspected the external wiring serving the subscriber in question as well as some others in the area, but found no wires down. The examination carried out was a visual one and the repair staff did not regard it as necessary to call to the subscriber's premises and would not ordinarily do so in such circumstances.

The subscriber called to Distillery Road depot on the same or the next day and met the official with whom he was acquainted. That official, however, had no direct involvement in the type of work in question and did not become involved in the further treatment of the case. This is significant for reasons which I will explain later.

The subscriber called to the Department's depot at Russell Street, the headquarters for that area, on 8 or 9 November and spoke to an engineering superintendent there. The subscriber explained that some time previously three men purporting to be Post Office staff arrived at his house and installed a wire at the back of the house which they said was for use in connection with the telephone. He also said that they appeared to have a post office van. He indicated that he himself was not there when they called but his wife who was in the house on her own when the men called noted that one of the men stood in front of the door of the van. He added that his wife was suspicious of what the men were doing and that the work was of a very shoddy nature, not like Post Office work. In reply to a question he said that his wife had not sought any identification from them. The subscriber made no reference to finding a microphone or transmitter or to Mr. Mallon being involved.

So far as this engineering superintendent could ascertain none of the installation staff under his control was involved and he therefore contacted the repair centre at Belcamp to inquire if any staff from there had been to the house. He was told there was no record of any staff there having done so. He then spoke to the line technician at Belcamp and asked him to call to the house and to check the installation of the wire with a view to establishing if it was official or otherwise. This having been arranged, the subscriber left. The engineering superintendent concluded something irregular had occurred as the subscriber had told him that the line to his telephone was directed in through the front of the house whereas the three men had placed a wire at the rear of the house without apparently making any effort to remove the wire at the front. He also formed the view that the subscriber was very concerned about the standing of the three men.

The line technician, as arranged, called to the subscriber's house on, so far as he can recall, the evening of 9 November but it may have been on 8 November — the precise date is not, in any event, of any particular importance. When he entered the house he picked up the telephone which is situated in the hall and found it working. The telephone is connected from a distribution point at the front of the house and was not near the loose wiring. The line technician inspected the wiring in the kitchen at the rere of the house. The subscriber's wife pointed out the wire which was coming down the external wall from a hole which had been drilled through the wall about six inches from the window and about six feet above floor level — these are approximate, being the technician's recollection of the facts. The wire was run straight down the wall and led under the carpet. When he pulled at the wire to see where it was going, the end came up in his hand as it was leading nowhere. There was nothing attached to the end of the wire. He inspected the wire from the outside but beyond seeing it extending through a tree to an ESB pole, he could not say where it ended — he had no ladder and this would have been needed to examine it further. The clips holding the wire to the eaves of the house were of a kind which he believed could be bought in any store.

From his examination the technician suspected that the work was not done by Post Office staff but deferred forming a firm opinion until he had traced the other end of the wire over the builder's yard. He told the subscriber's wife he would call back the following day to carry out a further examination. She said she would not be there that day and he indicated that he would ring her later in the week.

He asked the subscriber's wife about who had done the wiring and when. She said the men arrived on the morning of 1 November in what appeared to be a Post Office van. In reply to questions, she said she did not see the fleet number of the van or the Posts and Telegraphs sign as one of the men had stood in front of the door of the vehicle, that she did not ask them for nor did they produce identity cards, that they gave as their reason for the work that they were rewiring for a new exchange which was opening in the area, and that they could not finish the work as there was a strike on in Athlone. She did not supply any description of the men. She added that the men wanted to bring the wire in through the open window but that she objected and told them they would have to drill a hole in the wall. She had been minding her grandson on the day the work was done and when her son called to collect the child, he remained on until they had left. No mention was made to the technician of a microphone, a transmitter or of any association with Mr. Mallon.

The technician formed the opinion that the van used was a Renault, of the type used by the Department. He told the subscriber's wife that he thought the men might have been planning a robbery at the time. He formed the impression that the subscriber's wife suspected that the work was not done by Post Office staff. On the following day the technician, with the local lineman, went to a lane at the back of the subscriber's house and traced the wire from an ESB pole, along the top of the wall surrounding the builder's yard, to a point about 30 metres away where it came down and was lying on waste ground. It was not connected to anything. They left the wire where they found it. The two men did not enter the house as they had been told the subscriber's wife would not be there.

Having considered the matter, the technician concluded that the work was not done by Post Office staff. He reached this conclusion on the basis of the position of the hole in the wall of the house and of its size — it was bigger than it normally should be — the facts that there was no bracket on the eave of the house, that the wire was lying limp going through the branches of the tree contrary to Post Office practice as this would have resulted in an earthing fault quickly, and because of the way in which the wire was bound in on the bracket on the ESB pole and of the manner in which the wire was slung along the wall. The technician telephoned the subscriber's wife on 11 November and told her of the opinion he had formed that the work was not done by Post Office staff and told her she would be well advised to ring the Garda in Howth in case her house was going to be robbed. She thanked him but did not comment otherwise.

Recent newspaper reports indicate that the hole in the wall through which the wire came when the premises were inspected by the Department's technician was drilled by the subscriber and not by the three men. It follows that the wire coming through the hole and down along the wall was also placed there by the subscriber. I quote from the article by Vincent Browne in the Sunday Tribune which said:

When Michael Moyna saw this later on in the evening of 1 November, he bored a hole through the 18" outside wall and was about to thread the wire through it when he discovered the microphone. After he had discovered the microphone he threaded the wire through the hole anyway, so that the wire would be visible for the P and T officials and anybody else who was to examine it later. Mrs. Moyna forgot to inform Séamus Moran of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs that it was her husband — not the installation team — who had bored the hole.

If these reports are correct, these facts were not brought to the notice of the technician who visited the house. That these were not brought to his notice is confirmed in the report in last Sunday's issue of the Sunday Tribune. The result was that the work inspected by the Post Office technician was not that done by the three men but at least in significant part by the subscriber himself and the technician can testify only to the standard of the work he saw. The Department's conclusions in this matter were based on the assumption that the work they saw was that done by the three men; the technician concerned was not, of course, aware of a microphone and transmitter having been found. The result was that the Post Office inspection was, in effect, of quite an unreal situation and bore very little relationship to the actual position.

The technician discussed the matter with his engineering superintendent — this engineering superintendent was not one of those on whom the subscriber called earlier. The technician said he did not think the wiring was carried out by Post Office staff and expressed the view that it might have been placed there as part of a plan to carry out a robbery in the house. So far as the engineering superintendent was aware there were no plans to improve the telephone service at that address and therefore the wiring at the rear of the house had nothing to do with the working of the telephone. He was reinforced in his suspicions when he received a report about the same time that men in the Portmarnock area had been inquiring about Northern Telecom telephones. It was most unusual to have as many as three men in groups engaged on light repair work and, particularly, working from a Renault van, as a larger vehicle is needed for three men. Having examined the diaries of staff under his control and having established that none of them was due to be in that area on 1 November, the engineering superintendent reported the incident at Howth Garda Station on 14 November and furnished a report to his district headquarters. He also telephoned the subscriber's wife on that day and told her that so far as he could establish the three men who called on 1 November were not Post Office staff under his control and he advised her to notify the Garda as the only conclusion he could come to was that the house was being inspected for a robbery.

I might add that the engineering superintendent whom the subscriber had contacted at Russell Street depot telephoned the subscriber's wife about 11 November — he cannot be certain of the exact date — to confirm that engineering staff had called. She confirmed that she had a visit from a Post Office official who had found an additional wire coming from the rear of the house but she made no reference to any other items having been found. The engineering superintendent told her that he felt she should get in touch with the Garda, but she replied that her husband was looking after the matter and thanked the engineering superintendent for his help.

I should say that in some instances, as I have indicated, it is not possible to be certain of the precise dates for certain events, but where there was any doubt I have indicated that. In any event, I do not regard precise dates after 1 November as having any particular significance or of having any special importance insofar as the events concerned my Department.

I have had further inquiries made by my Department's investigation staff recently. These have not thrown any new light of substance on the matter except in one instance. In that case an officer at the Department's Distillery Road depot who was an acquaintance of the subscriber, and to whom I have referred earlier, indicated that he had been told by the subscriber about the microphone and transmitter and of the association with Mr. Mallon. That officer is responsible for major overhead maintenance works and, as I mentioned earlier, was not involved in the treatment of the case. He took it that the subscriber was looking for advice from him in a personal capacity and, on the basis that the problem had already been reported and was having attention, he did not pass on the information he obtained. If he had done so, the matter would have been treated differently by the Department. In fairness to him, it would appear that the subscriber did not expect him to pass on the information because, according to reports in the news media, he did not want Post Office personnel to be aware of the details. The fact that this officer was so aware came to light only last week when he was interviewed in some further inquiries being made by my Department.

That is a full account of the position insofar as my Department's direct involvement in the matter is concerned and I would hope that it may be helpful in shedding light on the events surrounding this case. The thought that anyone might seek to invade the privacy of another as in this case is something to be deplored in the strongest possible terms.

This action, it would appear, had nothing to do with the telephone service and there was, apparently, no attempt to connect the wire in question to the telephone line in any way. As the Dáil will be aware, action was taken last year in the Postal and Telecommunications Services Bill to introduce heavy penalties for those intercepting or attempting to intercept telephone calls, except in duly authorised circumstances, but it is clear that interception of telephone calls was not the target in this instance.

I propose to deal now with the alleged tapping of the telephone of the subscriber concerned which was given some prominence over the last few days, following a report in the Sunday News. It is clear that what is alleged here is the existence of an unauthorised tap. What was claimed in that newspaper was that the subscriber's telephone was tapped at a roadside junction box called a “cabinet” about 500 yards from the subscriber's home. Some details were given of how this was alleged to have been done and the report went on to claim that the method of tapping involved was often used in Northern Ireland by both the IRA and by Army and police intelligence for operations which cannot be officially authorised or acknowledged. The report quoted Post Office officials in the Republic as the sources of this information in regard to the tapping of the phone.

It is the position that for many housing estates and built-up areas in Dublin telephone service is provided from what are called distribution cabinets. These are locked steel-clad cabinets, usually placed on footpaths, as stated in the report. Normally big cables are led out from exchanges to a convenient central location and distributed from there along various roads to provide service to individual subscribers. Indeed, some of the Sutton area is served from a cable distribution cabinet. In describing the general position the report is correct and what was said may sound quite plausible.

But — and this is the critical and only factor of relevance — Bord Telecom Éireann who have checked the matter at my request have informed me that telephone service for the subscriber concerned is not provided from a distribution cabinet as claimed in the report — I repeat "not". In fact, the cable is led directly from the local exchange via an underground cable to a distribution pole within 50 metres of the subscriber's house, and service from there is provided via an overhead drop wire to the house. The cable is not led from a distribution cabinet about 500 yards from the house, as was stated in the report; it is led from a distribution pole not more than 50 metres away. I might say that this house was served from a distribution cabinet up to June 1983, when, in a re-arrangement of cables in the area to meet more applications, this subscriber as well as some others had their cables changed from the distribution cabinet. I will leave it to the House to judge the reliability of that report in the light of those facts and of the motives of those who invented this story.

I should say, nevertheless, that following the report, the distribution pole was checked on Monday, 27 February. There was no tap on it when inspected and there was no evidence that one had ever been placed on it. The condition of the wire was such that it is believed that if it had been interfered with in this way it would be possible to detect this now.

The Minister will have to conclude. He has gone over his time.

I should like to thank the Chair for giving me the extra minute. I should like to point out that in the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, there are severe penalties which I insisted on being included to be imposed on any person found guilty of interfering or attempting to interfere with the telephone system.

One matter that has been proved in the debate, and in particular by the contributions of the two Ministers, is that there is a vital need for the adoption of our motion which calls for the establishment of a tribunal to inquire into this whole question as a matter of urgent public importance. It is apparent from the contributions by the Minister for Justice last night, and the Minister for Communications today, that they are not prepared to make any real contribution towards ascertaining the facts of this matter. The Ministers, and everybody else concerned, can only make a real contribution towards ascertaining the truth when they are put on oath giving evidence before a tribunal with trained lawyers to examine and cross-examine them and all people concerned. That tribunal would investigate what I regard as a test case as far as our society is concerned. We have here fundamental issues concerning the security of the State and the management of the nation's security affairs. Those matters are germane to the sort of investigation that can only be conducted in a legal and judicial manner with full examination and cross-examination.

It is apparent that all we have done is made a prima facie case. A number of questions need to be answered. We have raised those questions but they have not been answered. The fact is that they cannot be answered under the procedures which operate here or obtain in any Parliament. In raising this we have shown the complete inadequacy of the Government's position in this matter. By reason of the inadequacy of the Ministers for Justice and Communications it is apparent that the questions that need to be answered can only be answered before a judicial tribunal where sworn testimony can be tested by legally trained personnel through examination and cross-examination. There has not been any attempt to answer some basic key questions which I should like to reiterate. The most important aspect that arises in regard to this matter is the delay from 16 November when the statement by Mr. Moyna was given to an aide of the Taoiseach for transmission. It is common case that that was transmitted by the Taoiseach to the Minister for Justice within two days of 16 November. Why was that statement not investigated fully, or partially, by Garda and security personnel between then and 11 January? This raises serious questions. The communication came from the Deputy Leader of the SDLP, a much respected person. He made a complaint to the Taoiseach and the nature of the complaint was fully set out by him as published in last Sunday's issue of the Sunday Tribune. Apparently, all that happened between then and 11 January was that Garda personnel asked for Post Office engineering reports and these two reports predated the production of the statement by Mr. Mallon to the Taoiseach. The only investigation carried out by Garda personnel over a period of two months resulted in the receiving of copies of statements from Post Office officials, statements which had already been made prior to that furnished by Mr. Mallon. These Post Office statements were handed to the Taoiseach via the Minister for Justice and produced to Mr. Mallon on 11 January.

That delay must be explained. Where does Mr. Moyna's statement lie during that period? Was it in the Minister for Justice's office, with the Garda, or in the Taoiseach's office? Why was not an investigation made into the house itself, or a statement taken from its occupiers? Why was Mr. Mallon not interviewed by the Garda during that period? A whole range of questions require to be answered. In my view, it is not likely that our Garda would tarry in a matter of this sort. In my three-and-a-half-years' experience as Minister for Justice, I found that when the Taoiseach of the day gave an order that something was to be done, it was done very quickly. I do not believe that in this case the Garda are to be blamed in any respect.

The reports of the Post Office officials were handed to Mr. Mallon on 11 January and it is remarkable that, there not having been any action up to that, on 12 January a member of the Garda Síochána came to the Moyna household and was handed the transmitter and the microphone. These matters, if nothing else, would justify the holding of a judicial inquiry to establish the facts. It must be asked why these matters were dealt with in such a cavalier manner. There is a cover up, a silence, or a withdrawal syndrome and nothing happens between January 12 and February 19, when the story emerges in the Sunday Tribune. That story we now know was based fully on fact and in accordance with the truth. At that stage, the Garda had the transmitter and the microphone.

On February 19, we have the most serious and bizarre aspect of the whole matter emerging into the open when, apparently, the Press Secretary of the Government, Mr. Prendergast, or some of his assistants, were made aware of the story appearing in the Sunday Tribune. The Taoiseach is then taken out, at 12 o'clock midnight, to work into the early hours of the morning on a statement in Government Buildings. The result is a statement which is completely inaccurate, one which does not refer at all to the major, central theme of the Moyna statement handed to him, which would be apparent on any casual examination of that statement, namely the finding of the microphone and the transmitter, a very sophisticated transmitter, to quote the wording. The essence of the Moyna statement furnished to the Taoiseach on 11 November and investigated by the Garda personnel eventually on 12 January is not even referred to in the statement coming from Government buildings. There has been a series of incomprehensible delays from 16 November until 11 January, made much more serious because the matter concerns the Deputy Leader of the SDLP, the main constitutional national party of Northern Ireland and particularly so when the Forum deliberations are involved in the matter. That such matters would be dealt with in such a cavalier and, may I say, even sinister manner must be investigated.

We have this midnight ride of the Government Press Officer and the Taoiseach into Government Buildings to prepare a statement for the edification of the public. Nobody knows the reason why this was done. That statement opens up with a deliberate smear against the occupiers of that house and the family involved, a respected family in regard to Mr. Michael Moyna living in that house and his brother, Mr. Thomas Moyna living in Scotstown, County Monaghan, a highly respected family in our society with strong trends of the SDLP and of the constitutional nationalism. These particular people are smeared in the opening paragraphs of the Taoiseach's statement following this midnight ride into Government Buildings. Furthermore, there was not a single reference to the basic nub of the whole complaint made by Mr. Michael Moyna which related to the transmitter and the microphone.

These are facts which, straight away, require the assertive, thorough investigation which can be given to them by a judicial tribunal like we suggest, where there can be careful sifting of the facts and careful cross-examination of the various witnesses concerned can ascertain the truth. We are basically here about the truth. There has been an attempt by the Government at all stages since they went into office to plagiarise the truth, twist the truth and give a cosmetic account of their activities. The Government Information Service, a service which is basically a service of the nation and to the nation is to disseminate legitimate news about Government activities, but in this situation has been perverted and thwarted to the extent that these people paid out of the public funds, are now in the course of laundering the truth.

I have met many journalists in this House and outside it in the last few days who are very perturbed by this as many police officers throughout the country are very perturbed by the manner in which security and police affairs have been politicised. We are reaping the whirlwind of an attitude of mind which started when the Government came into office 14 months ago and, in particular, early last year, when for the first time, the Government proceeded on a campaign of politicisation of the police force and of security. We have a situation in which decent men in the police force have suffered because of this politicisation and in which confidential files have been revealed in a most opportunistic and unscrupulous manner, a situation which never arose before in the history of the State. I speak advisedly as a former Minister for Justice and I know of security matters that I will never breathe a word of to anybody. In 1932, when Fianna Fáil achieved power, there were more security secrets available that could have been used and were never used because of the honour Eamon de Valera paid to William T. Cosgrave, the honour of one Irish Government leader to a previous Irish Government leader.

Over the past 14 months we have had the most dishonourable and unscrupulous attempt to bring the whole area of security and the police force within the ambit of politics. This is the price we are paying for it now when nobody knows where they stand within the force and nobody knows where they stand with regard to security. The security and the police force of the State 14 months ago were used by opportunistic politicians, including the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, to abuse power and to use the power they had for nefarious political purposes.

I want to give one guarantee here. If we ever get back into power we will never do that, because we care about the nation and its national future. The Government in this respect have done the most disgraceful thing that has ever been done since the State was established. There is no pretence about saying anything else about it. They are reaping the whirlwind in this particular case. Let them come clean if they can, be honest about it, have the type of investigation which we say should take place, not an investigation behind closed doors but the full investigation of a judicial inquiry in full open, legal and judicial manner.

The other aspects which arise in the course of this particular matter relate to a certain aspect which I would like to query the Minister for Justice about. It arose in the course of his contribution last night and in the course of his television interview later last night. It is very interesting that the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner have made it quite clear that there was no involvement by the Minister or the Garda Commissioner in this particular matter. That has been a consistent, clever, defensive attitude adopted. I am ignoring the nonsense which arose originally that this House was being cased for a robbery or that the Provisional IRA were involved. If the Provisional IRA were involved or if a robbery was being planned that would have been discovered long ago. I am concerned about people who, for their own maverick reasons, may seek to organise themselves to get information of this kind.

Information of what kind?

Information of the kind that was sought to be obtained because of Mr. Séamus Mallon's presence in this House which could only be obtained from a conversation taking place around a table by reason of where a bug was placed and where a sophisticated transmitter was placed for further radio delivery. All of this is in the interests of the Garda force. The insulting jibe of the Minister for Justice last night did him no credit. This sort of politics from a Minister for Justice is totally out of place. This is not an issue of whether, as he sneeringly said last night, we either believe the Garda Síochána or the Provisional IRA. The Provisional IRA have nothing to do with this. Let us get that out of the way.

(Interruptions.)

The Garda Síochána are a force we have stood up for over the years and which we want to protect. They are entitled to protection from interfering politicians like the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice. They are entitled to protection from the politicisation which has taken place over the past 14 months in regard to security and Garda affairs in this country.

(Interruptions.)

Will the Deputy keep quiet, or we will put him out of the House.

The Chair can manage its affairs without the interference of Deputy Haughey.

On a point of order, I want to tell you that I have no great faith in your ability to manage them impartially. If you permit Deputy John Kelly to interrupt once more we will give effect to that.

Will the Deputy allow Deputy Lenihan to continue?

Will you allow him to continue and stop that political thug over there from interrupting?

I want to see established here in particular out of this debate and out of the inquiry we want to secure, the good name of a great police force, that were marvellous in their impartiality and non-involvement in politics until they were dragged into politics by the Government 15 months ago. In this respect, I want to refer to what the Minister for Justice said last night on television. I will quote directly what he said and I will answer the challenge he made on television last night. He said:

They will be dealt with, and be they a maverick group from any walk of life they will be dealt with, and I know that is the view of the Garda Commissioner as well.

Taking up his challenge I give him a list of names. I will not divulge them but ask that they are passed to the Minister so that he can investigate them. We in this party have carried out an investigative job which might have been done by the Minister and the Government if they were serious about it. These may be of help to him in finalising the investigations.

I emphasise one important aspect: We want to have this matter out in the open by way of judicial inquiry to protect the Garda and the institutions of State. We do not want it to drift as happened in the case of Watergate in the US. Make no mistake about it, the similarities are quite frightening between what happened here and in Watergate. Watergate started off as a bungled bugging attempt of the democratic national headquarters. The first allegation made was that the equipment was not sophisticated. It subsequently proved to be sophisticated even though the operation was bungled. All the official agencies at the time ignored it. President Nixon and John Mitchell pooh-poohed it as it has been pooh-poohed here by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice. If it was not for the persistence of one newspaper in the US and a vigilant opposition the matter might never have been pursued.

The matter, which led to the ultimate downfall of President Nixon, was compounded by public misstatements and untruths made by him and his Attorney General, John Mitchell. In an effort to cloak up and cover up things, they stumbled from one disaster to another. Before it is too late and the Government stumble into that situation, I appeal to them to set up the judicial inquiry. Let us have it all out in the open. If mistakes were made we will not be found lacking in generosity. Mistakes will always be made in security matters but what the country cannot afford is systematic lying to cover up something that need not be covered up. If a blunder was made let it be admitted that it was. They should either do that or proceed to have a judicial inquiry which would ascertain the facts and establish whether there was a blunder.

One thing is clear from the facts which we have before us: there is no doubt but that it is a catalogue of ineptitude, stupidity, delay, tardiness and vindictiveness. Right across the board there is an attitude towards this matter that bespeaks not corruption but rank bad government, a Government unable to face up to the facts and adopts all kinds of techniques through their Press Office, Minister for Justice and Taoiseach, that establishes a cloud of cover up around a matter which at the end of the day may prove to be a blunder. If it is a blunder, why not admit it and be straight? I can forgive a blunder but if it is anything more sinister and a deliberate attempt to corrode the privacy and the rights of our people, then it is serious and we will indict the Government and hound them out of office. For the time being, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt but I appeal to them to please establish the tribunal in order that society can be secure in the knowledge that it knows what is going on and knows there is no cover up. Irish society is intelligent enough to make a sensible and rational judgment on the basis of such a tribunal's findings.

I remember in 1967 when Deputy Lenihan was Minister for Justice a man died in police custody in Cork. After a long delay a judicial inquiry was held.

It was held immediately and the Garda were totally exonerated.

I do not know why the Deputy thinks I would stand up and score an own goal. I make this point in order to recall to Deputy Lenihan and soothe him, that in 1967——

Soothe your own side.

——the Government of the day set up a judicial inquiry into the death of a man in police custody in Cork after Deputy Lenihan, as Minister for Justice, had stone-walled for two months and until everyone in the country, every newspaper, newspaper editorial and every nameless hack was shouting at him to do so. He stood on this. I thought it was a fit case for an inquiry but I could see some glimmer of honour in the attitude he adopted. His attitude was that he would not have the police dragged through this. It had been satisfactorily explained by the inquest which lasted for three days. The man died as a result of an accident and that was the end of it. That was a defensible point of view. It was not good enough and an inquiry was set up which exonerated the police. It was to his credit that he gave in on that point.

The reason I mentioned that incident is that in 1967 it was a good point to say: "I believe in the Garda and will not have them dragged through an inquiry. I believe in them and believe they are telling the truth and the inquest showed that and there is no more to be discovered about it". That was a powerful point. The Government of which he and Deputy Haughey were members stood by that point. It was the best point they had in those days. A point like that counts for nothing now. Why is that? Why is that the Garda are suddenly in the doghouse and people are willing to give credence to the IRA but not to the Garda any longer? Why is it now the position, as we saw three days ago, that the principal Opposition party is able to say virtually in so many words that the Garda are telling lies and committed a crime or at the very least a civil offence by going into somebody's house and setting up a bug? How is that possible? How much water has roared under the bridges that that could be possible? Who opened the sluices to make that cataract flow down the river? I will give the answer to Deputy Lenihan. The sluices were opened in 1982 when, for the first time a Minister did not wait for instructions from the Garda when a surveillance operation was mounted but gave them instructions which they were too terrified to withstand. They had good reason to be terrified because the same Minister treated his own constituency as his personal fief as though he was a baron out of the 13th century. He treated the Garda as his personal SS. That is why they were terrified. That is why they did not withstand the pressure but gave in and that is why two years later, they are still in the doghouse in spite of Deputy Noonan's efforts to get them out of it. It will take more than Deputy Noonan and the work of the Government to do that. It will take a decade to rescue them from the shadow which Deputy Doherty and the Government of which he was a part threw across them.

Where is the inquiry you promised during the election campaign?

The reason why nobody believes the Garda now and why we on this side have to take on trust what we hear from them is that it never happened until 1982 that we saw behaviour of this kind.

I want to pay a tribute to Deputy Lenihan and acknowledge the generosity with which he evoked the year 1932. What he said about that year is true. Mr. de Valera and his party in those days, although I think their opinions were wrong, were people of some standing. They were men. They could have made life literally unliveable for many people if they had not behaved in the way which Deputy Lenihan described. They behaved honourably and I do not think any side ever alleged in the whole 60 years that elapsed between the foundation of the Irish Free State and the events of a couple of years ago, that the Garda were an object of suspicion. There was the occasional bad apple and we are seeing bad apples now in greater numbers than was once the case but no person or reputable body and most certainly no reputable opposition ever said that they did not trust the Garda. That did not happen until three days ago. The reason it has happened is that the Garda delivered surveillance equipment to a politician so that he might bug his colleagues. When did that ever happen under Eamon de Valera or Seán Lemass? I am not speaking about Willie Cosgrave, Costello or the younger Cosgrave. When did it happen under Jack Lynch? It was reserved for the men of destiny opposite me——

Interruptions.)

It was reserved to them to bestow on the police the mantle of incredibility. It was as if they had been to Deputy Lenihan's incredibility school. They had had incredibility gap training. It was not Deputy Doherty who gave them that training — he is only a cog in a wheel; it is the leadership of the party which stood over that conduct which has left the Garda force in the doghouse today and made it possible for a debate of this kind to take place.

The Deputy is insane.

This situation will not be mended until the Garda Síochána, from the Commissioner down to the rawest recruit, has a couple of simple precepts engraved on his mind. It will take more than the efforts of one Government to do this, it will take a series of Governments to get that message home, that no member of the Force has anything to fear from the law or from the course of his own future career if he does his duty fearlessly, enforces the law fearlessly and resists illegal interventions fearlessly. That lesson must be brought home to the Garda and it will take not one Minister who can be trusted but a series of Ministers of the calibre not just of Kevin O'Higgins but of the Ministers for Justice who served under Eamon de Valera, people like Gerry Boland.

The other precept which must be engraved on their minds is that they must fear breaking the law and, above all, breaking it at the behest of some two-penny politician who will be here today and gone tomorrow, so that he can do down a constituency colleague or a colleague in a squalid leadership row in his own rotten party. The day that message is engraved on the heart of every guard we will be back to the days of Eamon de Valera and I will assent to the boast which Deputy Lenihan justifiably made. I will then have an easy mind and not, as on this occasion, a very unquiet one.

I believe that Deputy Kelly was sent in here as a magnificent distraction by the Taoiseach. He has now left——

(Interruptions.)

The Government certainly need a distraction and perhaps Deputy Kelly will read my speech since he is not interested enough to stay. Where is the inquiry which was promised by the Government prior to the last election? The initial steps had been taken by us at that time and why did the Government not continue with that inquiry? Does Deputy Kelly support the one-sided trial and execution of a Member of this House by the Minister for Justice? Deputy Noonan's lynching mob executed a Member of this House publicly on television in total contradiction of administrative and natural justice. Deputy Kelly should think about that in his professional role in University College, Dublin, because that was one of the most scandalous occasions ever recorded and the Minister will regret it for the rest of his life. He has had his blood sport but he has done irreparable damage to this House and to the security of the State.

The Minister for Communications had very little to say. He made many errors in his speech and has not got all the facts. He said that the technician called to the subscriber's house the evening of 9 November — as far as he can recall. He then said it might have been the night of 7 or 8 November. On another occasion he questions dates which were given by the Moyna family and which were given to the best of their recollection. Of course these dates are irrelevant, they are merely a distraction to send the media off on another wild goose chase.

Why was the initial fault which was reported not recorded? Is this unusual? The Minister also said it is not abnormal for the telephone to work itself. We were told the technicians did not have to do anything, but the phone came back itself. That is part of the folklore surrounding this event. In the belief that it was external wiring leading from the pole serving the subscriber to the house that was involved, departmental staff visited the area on 7 November and inspected the external wiring serving the subscriber in question as well as others in the area but found no wires down and all the wires acceptable.

The interesting point is that the wire in question went on to a pole on which there were lines from other subscribers. Why did the technician not notice them? It must have been obvious that it was an unprofessional job. In any event, there is very little in the document which is of any real value in the debate here. One of the main points which the Minister for Justice made is that the equipment was crude and unsophisticated. We have been treated to a great debate about what "sophisticated" means. I join with Deputy Lenihan in pointing out that the first White House statement in the Washington Post claimed that the Watergate affair was similarly crude and unsophisticated. The White House claimed that the workmanship was not up to the standard of the Government's special agencies. That is similar to what the press secretary here put out when this event was discovered. Is there a parallel with the Mallon affair? The Minister knows that this kind of equipment is used. The installation was workmanlike and could have been effective for the purpose for which it was intended. That is the key element.

We discovered eventually that it was possible to use this instrument in a number of ways: first, with earphones and a tape; secondly, as a cordless telephone is used; thirdly, from a surveillance van. Since then we did a simple experiment using a similar microphone placed under a thick, foam-backed carpet. A conversation in the room carried satisfactorily 15 miles on the P and T lines. A great deal has been done to run down this ordinary microphone which is not so sophisticated. It has been functioning since about 1910 or 1912 and they have not replaced it yet. It has been very effective. During this trial we found it was quite possible to stand in a room and talk while the microphone was placed underneath a thicker carpet than the other one and——

Limerick East): Who is “we”?

The Minister has had his opportunity and I will explain it to him later. We got an electronic engineer to do the study. Everything we have said is fact. We are only looking for the truth. We have had to dig and dig to get any information. We had to probe around to find there was a monitor on the side of the box. This was never indicated to us. I thought it was only where these things were plugged in but the electronic engineer pointed out that there were two separate prongs for the use of earphones. It was not until we probed around that we found there was a seven-foot aerial. Nobody said anything about that because the question was never asked during the investigation. A seven-foot aerial made a big difference to the ability of this equipment and its capacity.

The listening device was placed in the Moyna's dining-room and the Minister has made much of the question of the breakfast table. I wish he would look at some of the photographs. The breakfast table was up against the wall and Séamus Mallon usually sits with his back to the wall and the window. The Minister may talk of the differences of inches and some members of the press may be delighted to follow that lead. The microphone was in the fold against the wall behind the chair. A lot of nonsense has been talked about that. I wish somebody would just go and look at it. It is very easy to see especially during a simple investigation. I hope at some stage an investigation will be completed. We found that conversations could carry up to 15 miles and it had to carry only 50 yards to the surveillance set up. It had the assistance of a pre-amp microchip amplifier. There is no question about that. The next time the Minister goes to RTE I suggest he should look at the microphone in front of him. There is a big wad of foam on top of it and it seems to be very effective in getting voices across.

Many questions have been left unanswered by the Minister. He has admitted that there was substantial — I would call it unforgiveable — delay and I will leave it to the Members of this House to judge why the delay occurred and what that insult meant to the man in question, the Deputy Leader of the SDLP, as well as what action should be taken. It is a matter for the House, the Taoiseach and the Minister.

During his speech last night the Minister said:

The written complaint received by the Taoiseach was handed by an officer of my Department to a Garda officer. There was discussion about the need to carry out these inquiries in a discreet way and specifically of the need to keep the information in a very small circle so as to avoid the danger of leaks.

We would agree entirely with the Minister on this point, as would Séamus Mallon. Surely this small circle should have included the Moyna family who gave the Minister the report in the first instance? How can the Minister expect us to accept that the small circle should not have included these people? The Minister continued:

But the thrust of the discussion was interpreted on the Garda side as meaning also that inquiries would be confined to P and T officials unless the Gardaí then got confirmation that interviewing the Moynas would not involve any breach of confidence or any understanding that might have been reached between the Taoiseach and Mr. Mallon.

Could the Minister not have included the Moyna family in this confidential, secret circle? They looked to have it done that way, as did Séamus Mallon, and that is the way it should have been done in the first instance with a great sense of urgency.

The Taoiseach claimed that he was unaware of Mr. Mallon's representations made on 1 February and 7 February. We heard nothing about that. We made that perfectly clear last night. I am very concerned about the answer. The Taoiseach later emphasised that he did know until the 19th or 20th about these representations. I find it very hard to believe that the special Civil Service Foreign Affairs contact was not passing on to the Taoiseach the words that were given to him. It demands an answer which we were not given. We put it very clearly but the Minister and those who spoke on his behalf avoided it, leaving a major question mark.

There were various other questions such as that concerning the private and confidential request from Mr. Mallon. Why was there not an immediate investigation? Why has the house not been swept even yet? None of these questions was answered. The Minister has left us without the answers which are necessary if we are not to have an inquiry.

The Minister has passed a great deal of blame to the Garda and the Civil Service. I would remind him that the buck stops with the Minister and it is his job in the first instance to direct the work which has to be done. There has been delay and confusion — that much is admitted. The Garda and officials in the Department have been blamed. It is quite unfair because the direction should have come from the top.

The report was given on 19 November and such a serious security matter should have been dealt with comprehensively. One of the things which most worries me is the way in which the people concerned have been affected by the vindictiveness of the Taoiseach. There was every opportunity to deal with it effectively and comprehensively from the start. It has at least been bungled. It is admitted that major blunders have been made. Why did the Minister and the Taoiseach not set about repairing that situation as soon as they found it to be bungled, whatever the outcome? That would have had the support of this side of the House. The Taoiseach used the means of smearing somebody else. How often have we seen that before in this House? As soon as anybody gets in the way he is smeared. That is the nature of this Government. They have become trapped because they have become so accustomed to doing this and the Taoiseach knows no other way to perform. When something is not going right, when somebody is going against him, he has to use smears and traps, double suggestions and innuendoes. That is what we have seen here. It has finally caught up with the Government on this issue and it will not go away.

The Government would be well advised to have an inquiry and close the matter. We believe in the security of the State. We support the Garda Síochána. We want to see these matters dealt with effectively by a judicial tribunal. We want to see an end to the snide remarks, smears and innuendoes from the Taoiseach. Let us get back to constructive politics which will deal with the real problems of the country.

Motion No. 16 in the name of Deputy B. Ahern and amendment No. 1 in the names of Deputy Mac Giolla and Deputy De Rossa. I am putting the question that the amendment be made.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 77.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and De Rossa; Níl, Deputies Barrett

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe; Níl; Deputies Barrett

    Amendment declared lost.

    Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael.Barrett, Sylvester.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Mattie.Brennan, Paudge. Coughlan, Cathal Seán.Daly, Brendan.De Rossa, Proinsias.Doherty, Seán.Fahey, Jackie.Faulkner, Pádraig.Fitzgerald, Gene.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Fitzsimons, Jim.Flynn, Pádraig.Foley, Denis.Gallagher, Denis.Gallagher, Pat Cope.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Charles J.Hilliard, Colm.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Lemass, Eileen.Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Jimmy.Leonard, Tom.Leyden, Terry.Lyons, Denis.McCarthy, Seán.McCreevy, Charlie.

    Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John.Burke, Raphael P.Byrne, Hugh.Byrne, Seán.Calleary, Seán.Collins, Gerard.Conaghan, Hugh. McEllistrim, Tom.Mac Giolla, Tomás.MacSharry, Ray.Morley, P.J.Moynihan, Donal.Nolan, M. J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West)O'Dea, William.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Edmond.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond J.Ormonde, Donal.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Paddy.Reynolds, Albert.Treacy, Noel.Tunney, Jim.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Walsh, Seán.Wilson, John P.Woods, Michael.Wyse, Pearse.

    Níl

    Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Barry, Myra.Barry, Peter.Begley, Michael.Birmingham, George Martin.Boland, John.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Carey, Donal.Cluskey, Frank.Collins, Edward.Conlon, John F.Connaughton, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cooney, Patrick Mark.Cosgrave, Liam T.Cosgrave, Michael Joe.Coveney, Hugh.Creed, Donal.Crotty, Kieran.Crowley, Frank.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Martin Austin.Desmond, Barry.Desmond, Eileen.Donnellan, John.Dowling, Dick.Doyle, Avril.Doyle, Joe.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Thomas W.Farrelly, John V. Spring, Dick.Taylor, Mervyn.Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.

    Fennell, Nuala.FitzGerald, Garret.Flaherty, Mary.Flanagan, Oliver J.Glenn, Alice.Griffin, Brendan.Harte, Patrick D.Hegarty, Paddy.Hussey, Gemma.Keating, Michael.Kelly, John.Kenny, Enda.L'Estrange, Gerry.McGahan, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.Manning, Maurice.Mitchell, Gay.Molony, David.Moynihan, Michael.Naughten, Liam.Nealon, Ted.Noonan, Michael.(Limerick East)O'Brien, Willie.O'Donnell, Tom.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Leary, Michael.O'Sullivan, Toddy.O'Toole, Paddy.Owen, Nora.Pattison, Séamus.Prendergast, Frank.Ryan, John.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.Skelly, Liam. Timmins, Godfrey.Treacy, Seán.Yates, Ivan.

    Question put: "That motion No. 16 be agreed".
    The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 77.
    Motion declared lost.

    Níl

    Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Barry, Myra.Barry, Peter.Begley, Michael. Cluskey, Frank.Collins, Edward.Conlon, John F.Connaughton, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cooney, Patrick Mark.Cosgrave, Liam T.Cosgrave, Michael Joe.Coveney, Hugh.Creed, Donal.Crotty, Kieran.Crowley, Frank.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Martin Austin.Desmond, Barry.Desmond, Eileen.Donnellan, John.Dowling, Dick.Doyle, Avril.Doyle, Joe.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Thomas W.Farrelly, John V.Fennell, Nuala.FitzGerald, Garret.Flaherty, Mary.Flanagan, Oliver J.Glenn, Alice.Griffin, Brendan.Harte, Patrick D.Hegarty, Paddy.Hussey, Gemma.Keating, Michael.

    Birmingham, George Martin.Boland, John.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Carey, Donal. Kelly, John.Kenny, Enda.L'Estrange, Gerry.McGahan, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.Manning, Maurice.Mitchell, Gay.Molony, David.Moynihan, Michael.Naughten, Liam.Nealon, Ted.Noonan, Michael.(Limerick East)O'Brien, Willie.O'Donnell, Tom.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Leary, Michael.O'Sullivan, Toddy.O'Toole, Paddy.Owen, Nora.Pattison, Séamus.Prendergast, Frank.Ryan, John.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.Skelly, Liam.Spring, Dick.Taylor, Mervyn.Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.Timmins, Godfrey.Treacy, Seán.Yates, Ivan.

    We will put down another motion next week.

    Barr
    Roinn