Vol. 348 No. 6
I move:
That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his Writ for the election of a Member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the death of Deputy Bernard Cowen, a member for the constituency of Laoighis-Offaly.
I assume this is by agreement.
Is that agreed?
Dún Laoghaire): I am afraid my opposite number is wrong on this occasion. There was no agreement on this. The Government will be opposing this motion for perfectly valid reasons.
The Government are running for cover.
Does Deputy Ahern wish to make a statement?
We can have a general debate on the matter.
We assume we may get agreement on this. Is the Chair fixing a time limit for the debate now or what is the order?
The debate will proceed in the ordinary way.
Then I give way to the Deputy from that constituency, Deputy Connolly.
If Deputy Ahern does not avail of the opportunity to make a speech now he will not be able to speak again unless perhaps to conclude the debate.
I can give way to Deputy Connolly.
I am somewhat flabbergasted——
——at the way the Government have thrown in the towel. They are afraid to come down to my midlands constituency to see how they would fare. I have no doubt how they would fare but it must be pointed out that the constituency is now deprived of a public representative from my party at national level to look after the interests of the people of Laoighis-Offaly. It is a very large constituency, going from Meath to Galway, right down to the Tipperary border and back up to Kildare. During the years the constituency has had five Members.
Our constituency has been represented at Government level during the years. This happened during the period of office of the late Seán Lemass and when Jack Lynch, our present Leader, Deputy Haughey, and also Liam Cosgrave each held the office of Taoiseach. However, the present Taoiseach did not think Laoighis-Offaly deserved any representation at Government level and he abandoned us. There are many important matters in the midlands that need attention: I refer to the ESB and Bord na Móna and the future of both organisations in the area and there is also the matter of the hospital. I have no doubt that if the by-election takes place in the weeks ahead the Government will get their answer.
This Government will not hold local elections because they are afraid of the consequences. They used the pretext of bringing about reform in local government but so far nothing has happened in that area. I doubt if it will happen. It is my opinion that the local elections will not be held next year. The Government are only holding the European elections because they have no choice.
I remind the Deputy that there will be scope for that discussion on item No. 4.
The Government are afraid to face the electorate of Laoighis-Offaly. I have no doubt that that electorate will give the Government their answer in respect of the many important matters that affect their area. They are allowing these matters to drag on.
The Government have abdicated their responsibility in regard to this matter, but I want to assure everybody in the House that when the time comes for the by-election I have no doubt that there will be a resounding victory for Fianna Fáil. When the last by-election was held in Laoighis-Offaly it marked the early downfall of the Coalition at the time. When this by-election is held the Coalition parties will get their answer for how they are handling the economic and financial affairs of the country and, of course, of the midlands.
(Dún Laoghaire): Despite what Deputy Connolly might think, we all look forward to the contest in Laoighis-Offaly.
Why the delay — why not do it now?
(Dún Laoghaire): We have no fear of meeting the people of Laoighis-Offaly. It is only fair to say that it is a pity we could not have had discussions about a possible date for the by-election. If the writ was moved now it would mean that the by-election would have to be held between 21 and 30 March. I ask the Dáil to consider that during that period we will be discussing very important business here. We will be having the Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill, the Social Welfare Bill, the Building Control Bill that everybody has been seeking for so many years, and in addition the Cabinet will be having discussions on the Finance Bill.
The Taoiseach did not know that a few minutes ago.
We were not asked about it.
(Dún Laoghaire): All of that important business will be coming into the Dáil in that period. We were willing to have discussions with my opposite number about a possible date but he was not in a position to be consulted. Therefore, it is perfectly logical that the by-election would be held on the same day as the European election. That will avoid breaking up the business of the Dáil. The people of Laoighis-Offaly are fortunate that they have four excellent Deputies. I do not think a period of two-and-a-half months will deprive the people of that constituency of proper representation.
The Deputy's arithmetic is not very accurate.
(Dún Laoghaire): Between Deputy Connolly and Deputy Hyland and Deputies Enright and Flanagan, I am quite certain that the people of Laoighis-Offaly will be well looked after. In the interests of the country and the business of this House——
Just because you cannot get a candidate.
How long did the people of Tipperary have to wait?
(Dún Laoghaire): It is only logical to hold the by-election on the same day as the European election. I would remind Deputies on the other side that no later than February 1981, when Deputy O'Kennedy went to Europe as a Commissioner, the writ was moved and was opposed by that side. If the records are checked it will be found that Deputy Lenihan said on many occasions——
There was a general election imminent then.
(Dún Laoghaire): We are not creating a precedent. I am certain that the people of Laoighis-Offaly, and the people of Ireland, will understand the wisdom of postponing the by-election until the day of the European election. Not only will we not be interrupting the business of the Dáil but we will be showing the people that we are responsible. For that reason we will be opposing this motion.
All Members regret the circumstances which have brought about the necessity to move the writ. Deputies on this side still find it extremely difficult to come to grips with the fact that our late esteemed colleague, Ber Cowen, is no longer with us. His many thousands of supporters in the constituency will never be able fully to come to grips with his absence from among them. It is for that reason that I regret the Government's opposition to the moving of the writ. Regardless of the reasons being put forward by the Government parties, the real answer to their opposition is political expediency. The Government are afraid to put their performance to the test in Laoighis-Offaly.
That is it.
Laoighis-Offaly is one of the largest constituencies, one of the most representative of industry, agriculture and employment generally. In that constituency more than any other there is a cross-section of the people of Ireland and what they are thinking in relation to the performance of the Government.
I am not surprised that the Taoiseach and the Government parties have decided to put off the day of challenge. I do not suppose it will make much difference whether the election is in three weeks or two months because the answer the Government will get will be the same. Laoighis-Offaly will reflect the views of the people of Ireland when that contest occurs. They will reject out of hand the performance of the Government in the last two years. In the intervening period the Government will try to resolve some of the major problems we have in that constituency, again for political expediency, for the purpose of trying to restore their popularity. Any such moves will be very welcome by Fianna Fáil Deputies in the constituency and by the electorate there, but they will be seen for what they are, delaying tactics, short-term Government action to try to restore the credibility of this Government.
I advise the Taoiseach and the Government parties about the kind of reception they can expect from the electorate when they arrive in that area. It will be hostile, not only from Fianna Fáil supporters in the constituency but from many middle-of-the-road people who are disgusted and disappointed at the performance of the Government. The promises made before the last general election have not been fulfilled. The electorate will be disgusted and disappointed that they were conned into voting for a Government that had promised to bring about political and social reforms. Where is there any evidence of such reforms? In my constituency small industries are going to the wall day after day. The farmers of that large agricultural constituency are utterly disappointed with the performance of the Government, particularly at their handling of the milk super-levy.
Unemployment and the absence of job opportunities for young people in Laoighis-Offaly are steadily deteroriating day by day. Laoighis County Council, at their estimates meeting last Monday, were informed by the Minister for the Environment that there was no money available for improvements to roads, water supply and sewerage in the constituency. They said if they wanted to raise money the council would have to increase rates on small business premises by 10 per cent. These small shopkeepers, who are having to close their doors because they are unable to make ends meet, are now being told that unless Laoighis County Council add 10 per cent to their rates 50 road workers will have to be let go in the County of Laoighis in the next few months.
Now we know the way the Government are going.
There is reason for the reluctance on the part of this Government to contest their popularity, or lack of it, in Laoighis-Offaly. Laoighis County Council have also been informed that they are to increase the service charges for water, domestic refuse collection and, believe it or not, we have been told that we must charge for the facility of sewerage in the towns and villages in this constituency. The penalty for non-application of those charges is that 50 of our roadworkers within a period of six weeks will have to seek redundancy because Laoighis County Council will not be in a position to keep them in employment.
One question which the people of Laoighis-Offaly will want answered when the Taoiseach comes down in relation to the by-election is what he has decided to do with the application to include this area in the disadvantaged areas scheme. I refer to this particularly and sadly in the context of my late colleague, Deputy Ber Cowen. As Minister of State for the Department of Agriculture, he received no less than six deputations from the constituency in this regard. At the stage when we left office, the late Deputy Cowen, Deputy Connolly and I ensured that the file in relation to the designation of our county was as advanced as possible at that time.
It is a pity the Deputies did not do something about it at that stage.
I would advise Deputy Enright——
I am going to plant a man in Birr on top of Deputy Enright.
Garret says he is good.
I heard that the Government were looking for a sub in Edenderry.
That is the truth of it.
Deputy Hyland.
I must say to my colleague, Deputy Enright, with whom I have no desire to be in conflict, that he should direct his attentions to trying to resolve the problems in his constituency and mine which I have been endeavouring to outline over the last ten minutes.
Hear, hear.
The Deputy can be assured that they will be resolved.
I tell the Taoiseach that when he comes to Laoighis-Offaly we will be looking for some positive action in relation to Bord na Móna, the ESB generating stations and the threat to many thousands of jobs in the midland region and particularly in our counties of Laoighis and Offaly.
And even Kildare.
We were led to believe that this Government would have the answer to all our economic problems. I understand that it is the intention, or at least it is rumoured to be so, that the by-election will be held in conjunction with the European elections.
That is not even set.
Before I came into the House today, I was informed by members of the organisations of Fine Gael and Labour in Offaly that the writ would be opposed. I was not surprised and neither were they. It was a rather strange turn of events, if the Taoiseach is contemplating holding the by-election with the European election, that only a few short months ago he stated that the European elections were far too important an event to confuse them with any other side political issues.
Hear, hear.
The Taoiseach would say anything to stop the action.
Another U-turn.
That is one small example of the many changes in policy and the many somersaults which this House and the country will experience from the same Taoiseach and Government in the months ahead. To conclude, I very much regret that a legitimate move made here this morning on behalf of the party which suffered bereavement at the death of our colleague, Ber Cowen, and for the very legitimate reasons put forward by my colleague, Deputy Connolly, and our chief Whip, Deputy Ahern, to have the by-election held has been baulked by the Taoiseach who is snapping his fingers and snubbing the people of that constituency. The only comment I can make is that the time of reckoning will come and that will be the night when the votes are finally counted in that by-election contest. That is the day when the Government will pay the price for their decision today and for their performance in relation to the constituency and the country over the past two years.
Good boy.
Hear, hear.
Order, please.
The constituency playboy will be wheeled in.
I have not heard Deputy Hyland before in here, but I have heard Deputy Connolly on many occasions speak with elaborate and entertaining vehemence in denouncing the other side of the House, in expressing his lack of confidence in them. I never heard him use that same eloquent vehemence to quite the same effect as when he voted a lack of confidence in himself and Deputy Hyland behind him this morning. Evidently, these two are incapable of delivering to their side of the population the ordinary services of Deputies for the next two-and-a-half months——
I have no confidence in Deputy Kelly when he does not let them speak for themselves.
What have they been doing since the lamented death of Deputy Ber Cowen? Their indignation, of course, is only skin deep. It reminds me very much of the summers of 1974 and 1975, when it was my melancholy duty to do business with Deputy Lalor, who incidentally sat for the very same constituency — he was Opposition Whip, although he did not come from the same school as Deputy Ahern — I say this as an old friend, but Deputy Lalor regarded his duty as consisting in making life as hot and heavy for us as possible. Deputy Ahern has more sense — and I say that meaning no offence to Paddy Lalor. The result is a more civilised atmosphere in the House for everybody.
In those days we were obliged, because of the non-stop obstructionism of the other side, to bring the session to a close in 1974 some time towards the end of July, and in 1975 some time in August.
Never in August.
All the Fianna Fáil Deputies whom I met in the corridor and with whom I was on speaking terms — and gradually I acquired quite a number of them with whom I was able to talk civilly — were asking when we were going to let them out of this place and close the Dáil down, that their wives were going to divorce them, and that all their holiday plans were up in a heap. Finally I was able to tell them "I am going to let you out of your misery. The Government have decided——
On a point of order, is all this relevant to the debate?
The Chair is paying very acute attention to the matter.
I am citing the Fianna Fáil Deputies of those days. Their personal and private lives were up in a heap because of Liam Cosgrave's determination to get the business of the Government done no matter what the obstruction.
On a point of order——
Deputy Enright was going to speak.
Order, please. Before Deputy Gallagher intervened I was waiting for Deputy Kelly to relate his argument to the motion before the House. Perhaps he will do so now.
I was finally in a position to let them out of their misery and to say that the Government had decided to draw the meetings of that session to a close on 2 August, with an Allocation of Time motion. Their smiles nearly met at the back. Their relieved countenances shone through the smog. But when they came in here it was high indignation. They said it was the end of democracy as they knew it.
They said that the Government were going to bring to a close a session which had been obstructed at every hand's turn by the Fianna Fáil Government agents.
The Deputy must relate his argument to the debate.
I must say for Deputies Connolly and Hyland that they are beside themselves with delight that they will not have to put on their wellingtons and trot around that constituency in the month of March getting out votes, digging their axles out of yards. They are delighted beyond measure. They will go home tonight and say to their families: "It is all right, you can relax, we are let off until May and June". They come in here, indignant about factories which are closing down, about things which are going wrong in the economy, about the defiance of democracy which the Government are now responsible for.
I want to say this about the people of the country, on whose behalf Deputy Hyland spoke so eloquently — he geographically represents people different from the people I represent, but there are a very great number of country people living in my constituency. To use an eloquent expression which I heard from a colleague and friend of mine, a Deputy on this side of the House recently, about half of the people living in my constituency are "Cuid a Do's", people who, if they stayed where they were brought up, would be in Part 2 of the telephone directory. The people I represent are a cross-section of the Irish people fully as real as those Deputy Hyland and Deputy Connolly represent, as I am very nearly myself, at one remove. The people I meet do not take this point of view. When they open their papers and see accounts and photographs of seven or eight Government cars pulling up outside a chapel on a Sunday, with Ministers shouting into bullhorns and a little crew of children laughing at them, they say: "My God, is that what we are paying these óinseachs for? They are going around the country wasting time with the Government and the country up to their necks in economic trouble. This is the best they can think of. They are bashing one another with empty words and speeches."
Is the Deputy coming down to the constituency.
That is the kind of talk I hear in my part of Ireland, which has very nearly as many people in it from the country as Deputy Hyland has. If you took the country people out of my constituency organisation, there would be very little of the constituency organisation left. I do not mind admitting that, and it is one of the finest constituency organisations in the country. If you removed from it the people who do not come from Dublin, it would be a very thin little organisation. The reaction I get from my constituents is very different from the one I hear in this House. They say, "Would you for God's sake get down to the business you are being paid for, and not treat politics as a thing which justifies its own existence, the justification for which is greater the more steam and gas is expended from the people who are paid to take part in it."
The Deputy is not bad himself.
When I read that the writ was being moved, I read the usual vainglorious, bombastic few words from the Leader of the Opposition about it the other day, the usual empty breaking of political wind about how it would be "the first step on the way to see an end to this appalling Government who were making such a mess of things." I said to myself, "I will ring the Whip's office and ask if I can speak in this debate". I did not know at that stage what the Government were going to do about this matter.
I have caused enough distress to my own side by telling the truth, that Deputies can believe me when I tell the truth in a sense which is comforting to them. I did not know what they would do. I hoped, naturally for the sake of my own work, that I would not have to spend three long weekends in a row in Laoighis-Offaly but I did not know what they would decide.
I believe that in saying what I am now going to say I have the opinions of four-fifths of the people with me, perhaps more of those who think about such things, when I say that by-elections ought to be done away with altogether.
Will the Deputy do away with elections altogether?
The reason I say that is that they are not prescribed by the Constitution. Mr. Eamon de Valera saw no need for by-elections. If he had seen a need for them, and if he regarded them as integral to democracy, he would have written them into his Constitution; but he did not. The only thing he said about the filling of casual vacancies — the people voted for this Constitution — was what is said in Article 16.7º:
Subject to the foregoing provisions of this Article, elections for membership of Dáil Éireann, including the filling of casual vacancies, shall be regulated in accordance with law.
It is up to the Houses of the Oireachtas to decide how they want to fill casual vacancies, and we do not need to fill them by holding local general elections, with all the panoply of a general election, except that Ministers are spread thicker, like a cheap margarine, over the constituency than they would be at the time of a general election when they have their own seats to look after.
I can see that by-elections would fill a certain political function.
The Deputy is sent in as the Taoiseach's decoy.
They enable people to see how the political wind is blowing, if they need to be persuaded how it is blowing. I will make the other side a present of something. I will not go in for the empty bombastic boasting that our side will clean up this by-election. The figures are against us, and I believe that in the early stages of a reforming Government opinion very likely would be difficult to overcome. I deeply respected the late Deputy Cowen, and I would feel the pull of the sympathy factor in a by-election, but let us be honest about it. That factor is on the Opposition side too. That is not to belittle what appears to be a likely candidate, whom I believe is a former student of mine. Far from it. All I am saying is that, looked at soberly, Fianna Fáil seem to be the better bet for this by-election. I am not trying to dispute this and I am not going for any empty shouting about it.
I am not going in for any empty shouting about how we will walk over the Opposition. I believe the Government deserve to win it because of their courage and their cohesion, which has surprised even me, and most particularly because of the view which confronts me when I look at the only possible alternative Government in the shape of a Haughey-led Fianna Fáil taking over their place. These are powerful reasons for supporting the Government; but I can see that, looking at it as a bookie would look at it, the Opposition are the better bet.
It is not for that reason that I am opposing with sincerity the moving of this writ. I am opposing it on principle because I do not think by-elections should be held at all. They are not necessary in modern European democracies. Need I say it for the hundredth time since I had the honour of standing up for the first time in this House — the reason we have by-elections is because the jolly old British have by-elections. There is no other reason. The small peoples of north-western Europe — we are one of them — apart from ourselves do not believe in by-elections. The Dutch do not have by-elections. Are they fascists? If Deputy Haughey had stayed in the House I am sure he would have been throwing that word around by now. I hear he threw it around not very long ago. The other day I hear he used it, but not in my hearing, because I would not have let him away with it. The other day he called our party fascist in the House. Of all the vain bullies who strutted around Europe in the thirties the one that calls him to mind most irresistibly is Mussolini, in his relentless selfpromotion——
On a point of order, do we have to listen to this nonsense?
Deputy Kelly will have to confine himself to the motion.
He is trying to prolong it.
Deputy Kelly will have to relate his arguments to the motion. Passing references to other things may be permissible but they must be only passing references.
With respect, it is a legitimate rhetorical device to anticipate an answer to an argument. I anticipate that the Fianna Fáil speakers who follow me will be saying that I put forward an undemocratic point of view all of a piece with the fascism which their party Leader got away with accusing this party of three days ago. He is the last man in the North or South of Ireland who should be let get away with such an insult. I beg your pardon, he has a competitor in the North.
Using the privilege of the House.
The small north-western European democracies are not fascist states. The Dutch are not fascists, but they can get through without by-elections in between general elections. The Belgians are not fascists, and neither are the Danes, but they get through without by-elections. The Italians are not fascists; they are a couple of steps further to the left in general political balance than the other states I mentioned, but they do not have by-elections either. The reason we have them — and why they exist in Germany in deliberate imitation of the British, in that half of the Bundestag which is chosen directly from constituencies — is that the British have them. That is not a good enough reason. They are a damn waste of time and every Deputy knows that. They distract a Government from doing their job and an Opposition Front Bench from doing their's. They are a waste of time for every Deputy who is expected to take part in them. They are a waste of money in every way.
The cost of holding a national poll is well over £1 million. If we divide that by 40 to get the approximate cost of holding a local poll in a constituency the size of Laoighis-Offaly I come up with a figure of £25,000 to £30,000. Perhaps that is modest. It does not take into account Garda overtime or the disruption of the school week which is necessitated by evacuating the children on a Wednesday and cleaning up on a Thursday. It does not take into account the enormous — I do not wish to exaggerate — waste of national resources, even if it is only the wear and tear of the cars and waste of petrol, money, time and effort of people who should have other things to think about.
All this indignation is not because this constituency would have no representative but because, in addition to the four it now has, a fifth would not be added until the month of June rather than the month of April. Perhaps now the cogency of the parallel I was drawing between the contract in Fianna Fáil's behaviour in the House and outside in 1974 and 1975 when they were delighted they were let off, but pretending indignation in here, will be seen. That is one of the reasons why politicians are a hissing and a by-word, and why they have sunk through the floor of respect and are down in the dungeons of the people's contempt. They are all going around complaining, whingeing and wringing their hands. We ask what we did to deserve it, and try to justify giving ourselves rises. This is one of the things we do to deserve it. We will not do what we are paid to do. We will not do our jobs, but go around playing politics and think that is sufficient justification in itself. That is why we have this ludicrous display of indignation because the people of Laoighis-Offaly will not be allowed to have a fifth Deputy in the Dáil until June.
We have already had two by-elections in the short life of this Dáil, and all the people of Laoighis-Offaly are being asked to do by the Government's decision, which I heartily support, is wait for as much time as separates us in the future from the month of June, as separates us in the past from the Christmas shopping period which is hardly over. If the Government did anything else but vote down this writ, they would be highly culpable, and I would be up on my hind legs denouncing them for throwing away the people's money, wasting the people's time, not doing their own jobs, and preventing others from doing theirs.
Perhaps I shall bring a little womanly commonsense and decorum to the House on this issue. I speak as a Deputy from the neighbouring constituency of Longford-Westmeath and in particular from the end of the constituency representing Westmeath which borders on the area so ably represented by the late Deputy Cowen. I join with Deputies Connolly and Hyland and others who expressed regret at the passing of Deputy Cowen and at the necessity for such a debate.
I strongly support the moving of the writ. I support my colleagues in putting forward the arguments they have in the debate today. I put it to the Government that the reason this by-election is not being held is because they have heeded the lessons which were learned from the Dublin Central by-election. There was no delay about that by-election but rather an unseemly rush to hold it because the Government were of the opinion that their policies found approval. They rushed to the polls in Dublin Central and the result was a massive vote of disapproval of Government policy and handling of affairs.
Deputies Kelly and Barrett made great play about the fact that there are four competent Deputies representing Laoighis-Offaly. Nobody denies that.
They are highly capable Deputies, in particular Deputies Hyland and Connolly. Deputy Kelly made great play about the Constitution and quoted from it. The Constitution states that there should be a certain number of Deputies per head of the population. The constituency of Laoighis-Offaly is not being properly served at present in that some of the population are not represented in the national Parliament despite the efficiency and work of the aforementioned four Deputies. The Government intend that this remain so for slightly less than the next 12 weeks.
At the last meeting of Offaly County Council a person was appointed to fill the vacancy caused by the death of the late Deputy Cowen. The people of whom we speak today wished to replace their representative on the council immediately. They observed the decencies and at their next possible meeting they put forward their candidate for co-option to the county council. If they saw fit to do that, why should the voters at large in Laoighis-Offaly not be given the right to put forward their nominee to represent them nationally? I submit that the reason the Government do not wish this by-election to be called is that they know well that their policies, drift and direction and overall philosophy will not appeal to the people, particularly those in the midlands.
There are many problems in the Laoighis-Offaly constituency. My constituency touches on some of them. There are matters concerning energy, employment, hospitals, designation of disadvantaged areas and particularly the position of the ESB and Bord na Móna are exciting tremendous interest and discussion. In a small but neighbourly way in an adjoining constituency I have been involved in public meetings relating to these issues. I have been asked about these issues and I have sought clarification of the party's Front Bench on matters relating to energy as it affects the ESB and Bord na Móna. I am not happy with the direction and the underlying thrust of what seems to be the Government's policy on these matters. This is another cogent reason why the Government should not withhold from the voters of Laoighis-Offaly the chance to express what they think of impending changes in this direction. As well as the weeks which have elapsed since Deputy Cowen's death, it will be at least another ten weeks before voters can express their views of the Government's policies towards the constituency of Laoighis-Offaly.
In the Dublin Central by-election before Christmas the people had an opportunity in an urban area to express their views on the direction which the Government were taking. The views were not clouded or blurred; they were very clear and strong. The Government should now submit their policies to the electoral test in Laoighis-Offaly, which is a mainly rural constituency. What have they to fear? Deputy Barrett told us about their vast legislative programme so why not put that to the voters now so as they can pass judgment on the areas affecting them — health, family planning, energy and bog utilisation? A comprehensive package should be prepared by the Government to put before the voters. However, because of cowardice and reasons of an undemocratic nature, they will not allow their policies to be submitted to the electorate.
Deputy Barrett's example of February 1981 was not, as he well knows, valid because at that time it was known that there would be a general election in May or June of that year. We are now talking about holding a Laoighis-Offaly by-election within the vaster European context. The Government want to hold the by-election in conjunction with the European elections because their defeat will be smothered in the overall European defeat. The Government made great play in their Joint Programme for Government that democracy would always be at the core of their deliberations. In the interests of democracy they should now operate a checks and balances operation. We saw how they were regarded in an urban constituency; now let us see how they are regarded in a rural constituency. There should not be so much reliance on marketing surveys; let us have the real thing. The only thing that counts are the votes that are cast in every constituency in the country. The Government should take their courage in their hands and, if the result is not in their favour, perhaps it is time for a change of direction as outlined by various economic forecasters in the last few days.
The constituency of Laoighis-Offaly has always been very ably represented, especially by Deputy Cowen. I ask the Government to drop the hypocritical reasons they have advanced for not holding this by-election. They only wish to postpone this election because they know what the result will be. I do not look forward to a death but I look forward to an occasion when there is a by-election for a different reason, and I am sure that the Government will rush to the polling stations. The people of Laoighis-Offaly want this by-election. I cannot speak for the cuid a haons and the cuid a dós of Deputy Kelly's constituency as they are a mystery to me. The people of Laoighis-Offaly have a constitutional right to have their representative elected to put forward their points of view. I am looking forward to hearing Deputy Enright putting forward his point of view and to seeing it published in his local newspaper——
I am not the only one to have speeches published.
I do it, too. However, the people of Laoighis-Offaly will be interested in hearing his views on this matter.
It is worth repeating that the righteous indignation expressed by Deputy Connolly and Deputy Hyland is really the sort of Pavlovian conditioned response which we are all supposed to develop over a period to actions by the Opposition. The righteous indignation at the Government's suggestion that this by-election should be merely postponed for two months to coincide with the European election is not mirrored by what is said in the corridors. I am going to take up the point in a sense not developed by Deputy Kelly when he was referring to 1974 and 1975 when Members of the Fianna Fáil Party were saying one thing in this House and something different in the corridors outside the Chamber.
If Deputy Connolly honestly told us what he thinks he would probably agree with me and tell us that the vast majority of Members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and Dáil Deputies are breathing a sigh of relief this morning. They are delighted by the fact that it is now unlikely that this by-election will take place during the course of the next three weeks. They are delighted that they are going to be left in a position in which they can continue to work in their own constituencies, representing the people who elected them and given an opportunity to contribute in this House in a relevant and meaningful way in the legislative process instead of being shunted off for about three weeks to a different constituency in which their sole function would be to knock on doors. The vast majority of Fianna Fáil backbenchers, those who are free to talk and who do not feel inhibited by pressures emanating from the leadership of the party, are delighted there will not be a by-election until June. I am waiting for one of them to come into the House and to have the courage to say what they are saying in other parts of the House. However, I suppose we will not see that. The righteous indignation expressed by Deputy Connolly is expected of him. He has performed his function as a member of the Front Bench of the Opposition party. If he had said anything different everybody on this side of the House would have been flabbergasted. Deputy Connolly should now admit that he is quite pleased there will not be a by-election until June.
We are engaged today, as we often are, in a set piece of theatre. We are the players on the stage in this Chamber and we are acting out the roles we are expected to act out.
We do so in order to be reported in the newspapers and on television as having done what we are supposed to have done. The art of politics seems to be the art of appearing as often as possible in the media saying as much as possible, but some of us might get a great deal more reportage if we sometimes said things that were not expected. Members opposite are fulfilling their required role today. Deputy Connolly appeared to be confused and flabbergasted that this by-election was being opposed by the Government on the commonsense grounds that there is to be a Euro election in two months' time and it should coincide with that. Yet Deputy Hyland from the Laoighis-Offaly constituency tells us he knew all about it in advance. Does Deputy Hyland talk to Deputy Connolly or does Deputy Connolly talk to Deputy Hyland? Did it occur to them to check what they intended to say before they came into the House in case they contradicted each other? It appears that one Deputy's expectation was another Deputy's surprise.
There was a leak in Fine Gael in Laoighis-Offaly.
I must have order. I cannot have continuous interruptions.
Sometimes in politics the expectations of one Deputy can surprise his colleagues but the performance this morning seems somewhat strange. Members opposite continued with the conditioned, Pavlovian-type speeches which are expected on these occasions. Deputy Hyland waxed lyrical about local water or sewerage charges and accused the Government of all sorts of things, putting impositions on the people of Laoighis-Offaly and generating charges of a nature which no other Government would have imposed and that Fianna Fáil in Government had never even thought of. If you say something inaccurate often enough and it is reported often enough, you hope to convince people that it is true.
Everything I stated was fact and there is no denying it. Deputy Shatter knows that.
Deputy Shatter did not interrupt once today and it is quite unreasonable that he should have to face this barrage.
He is misrepresenting what was said and he knows that.
The Deputy's party will have an opportunity to speak later. Order, please.
I seem to be treading on sensitive ground in bringing members of the party opposite back to the realities as opposed to the fictions of politics.
It is rather strange that——
Deputy Hyland is out of order. He will resume his seat.
It is rather strange that the only people the Government side can find to oppose the moving of this writ are Dublin-based Deputies. Where are the rural Deputies from Fine Gael? We have had backbenchers from Dublin seeking to misrepresent the views we have expressed.
Deputy Hyland will resume his seat.
It is nothing short of a disgrace that we are getting this kind of chatter from Deputy Shatter misrepresenting what we said in relation to this constructive effort to move the writ.
Deputy Hyland will resume his seat.
I am not going to allow my efforts or those of Deputy Connolly to be misrepresented in any way.
Deputy Hyland will now leave the House.
Where are the other Fine Gael Deputies from Laoighis-Offaly? There is not one of them in the House.
I am going to invoke Standing Orders. I ask the Minister for Defence, Deputy Cooney, to move Deputy Hyland's suspension.
I move:
That Deputy Hyland be suspended from the service of the Dáil.
Deputy Hyland will please leave the House.
Deputy Hyland withdrew from the Chamber.
Deputy Hyland did not hear the Chair because he was so perturbed. The Chair knows that Deputy Hyland is a very orderly Deputy.
I fully appreciate that.
There is absolutely no doubt about it. He was riled by the inanities of Deputy Shatter.
He does not even know the constituency.
The Chair rose and stood for an appreciable time. Not alone did I not get order but Deputy Hyland refused point blank to sit down in defiance of the most elementary Standing Order in the House which says that when the Chair rises any other Deputy addressing the House should resume his seat. I must get respect for this House and I intend to do it.
I agree with you totally.
Sit down.
I would like the protection of the Chair against an ignorant interruption from the Minister for Defence telling me to sit down. It was an ignorant interjection.
Deputy Shatter to continue without interruption.
It is remarkable how upset Deputies opposite become when some home truths are brought back to them.
Deputy Shatter was not in the House for Deputy Hyland's contribution. He just sailed in, in a smart-alecky way. The king of the smart alecks.
Deputy Wilson is having difficulty with his eyesight because I have been sitting in the House for some considerable time throughout most of this debate. I was here for the entirety of the contributions by Deputy Kelly and Deputy Hyland.
I feel I must protect Deputies from personal attacks. The Chair heard Deputy Brian Lenihan making a personal attack on Deputy Shatter in a manner that does not concern his business in this House and I ask Deputy Lenihan to withdraw it.
I did not hear Deputy Lenihan making any remark of that kind.
I must have order.
I just wanted to clarify it. You may have been misled.
The Chair heard Deputy Brian Lenihan saying not once but twice that Deputy Alan Shatter was making smart alecky pay. I am asking Deputy Lenihan to withdraw that.
He is certainly a smart aleck.
Deputy Lenihan appreciates quite well what the remark was. I am asking him to withdraw the remark that Deputy Shatter made smart aleckry pay.
A Cheann Comhairle, would you like us to withdraw altogether? I think you would.
I did not hear it and I am beside the Deputy.
The Chair heard it. Deputy Lenihan should withdraw it.
If the Ceann Comhairle misheard me I am not responsible for that. If because of mishearing me he alleges that I said what he has stated I will withdraw it, but the Ceann Comhairle ought to do something about his hearing.
Deputy Shatter without interruption.
The performance of Members opposite in the past ten minutes is one of the reasons why Deputies opposite are where they are——
Less of that.
——and why this party are where we are. If this is an example of the alternative Government——
The Deputy should come to Laoighis-Offaly and we will sort him out.
——being offered to the people of Ireland, all one can say is, God help the people of Ireland.
Order.
If the Opposition party were serious——
Peter Pan.
This is very disorderly.
Blame your own party.
The great majority of the members of the public who are sitting in the Gallery watching this performance——
The Deputy is playing to the Gallery.
This is an attack on a Deputy personally to prevent him from speaking. The Chair deprecates that very much because it is not in keeping with the standards of this House.
The behaviour of Members opposite is symptomatic of the reason why politicians are viewed in the low manner in which they are viewed.
On a point of order, is it in order for a Deputy to continue to provoke interruptions——
A twopenny halfpenny moralist.
——without being reprimanded by the Chair?
If Deputies feel they cannot listen to the Deputy who is speaking as long as the Deputy is in order, they have an alternative.
Is he in order?
If I do not get order for Deputy Shatter I will adjourn the House.
If the Deputy is suggesting that he wishes to continue to listen to the debate I am very flattered by his continued presence this morning.
Has the Deputy ever visited the constituency?
If he finds difficulty in containing himself he has the option of listening on the hearing system in his own office. He could do that without interrupting me.
On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, you might guide me on this. Is it in order for Deputies on the other side of the House to interrupt and you do not hear them while, if Deputies on this side of the House interrupt, you hear them? I am not casting any aspersions or making any insinuations, but Deputy Skelly is continually interrupting and you have not referred to him once.
The Chair is being impartial to both sides of the House. Practically since Deputy Shatter commenced to speak, the Chair has been trying to get order for him. A number of Deputies on this side of the House are persistently refusing to give him a hearing. That is not in keeping with the standards of this House. It is not in keeping with the democracy we have. It is an absolute disgrace.
The point I am trying to make——
A Cheann Comhairle, you have not answered my question in relation to order.
The Chair is in charge of order and the Chair will keep order.
I appreciate that, but could I respectfully suggest to you as Ceann Comhairle and custodian of peace in this House, that you should listen with your left ear to people on that side of the House? If you did that there might be some harmony in the House.
Deputy Gallagher has just come into the House.
He has interrupted again and you have not chastised him once.
Order.
When the blood pressure level increased on the opposite side of the House it related to the comments made by Deputy Hyland concerning local water charges and sewerage charges and his expression of anger at the suggestion that the Government were imposing on the people of Laoighis-Offaly something which the Fianna Fáil Party never thought of, never proposed, and would never in a million years suggest. I must refer Deputy Hyland and other Members opposite to a document which disappeared into the dim distant twilight zone of party politics, a document called The Way Forward——
Is it in order——
The House is adjourned for half an hour.
When the House was adjourned to enable Members opposite to regain their composure I was about to refer to a document that has for long gone into what I would describe as a political limbo or twilight zone and people tend to forget about it. Indeed, the people who tend to forget about it most are the authors of this document and it might be no harm to jog their memories. I suppose the traumatic political events of the last two years have given rise to a certain degree of political amnesia. The document to which I was referring the Deputies opposite was excitingly called The Way Forward.
Deputy, I ask you please to come to the issue of the writ and whether the writ be moved.
I am dealing directly with the issue we are talking about. During the course of his contribution Deputy Hyland——
Deputies, I will manage this without your help and assistance.
Deputy Hyland during his contribution referred to the performance of the Government and to the problems that he saw for the people in Laoighis-Offaly by the imposition of certain local charges and he suggested that this Government were in some way behaving improperly or imposing a burden on people that the party opposite would never have thought of or would never have dared impose. That is why I am referring to The Way Forward, as I feel there is a duty on Members of this House——
I would like to repeat what I said originally. I was due to sit at 12 o'clock and the House was adjourned. I am endeavouring to ensure that the House will continue in an orderly fashion and I appeal to Deputies to remain with the issue of whether the writ should be moved. We have all heard about The Way Forward for several years. Perhaps the Deputy will confine his remarks to the by-election writ.
I think I am entitled to reply to remarks directly related to the by-election writ.
Deputy Shatter, a passing reference, please — not a debate on The Way Forward.
If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will allow me to make a passing reference without becoming so excited about it I shall then pass on to the other remarks I wish to make concerning this by-election and this particular writ. In regard to the remarks of Deputy Hyland and the imposition of charges, on page 96 of this document it is stated: "In view of the increasing investment in sanitary services it will be necessary to consider imposing realistic charges both on individual users of sanitary services and developers so as to recoup part of the cost. The matter will be examined in the context of legislation to empower local authorities to charge for services generally." The people of Laoighis-Offaly will not be misled by the high jinks and political guffaws of Deputies opposite. It is fair to say to Members opposite and to the people of Laoighis-Offaly that the party who first suggested and invented the imposition of charges by local authorities for water and sanitary services was the Fianna Fáil Party. The genesis of these charges originated in the policy of that party and it is documented in this particular document.
It is odd that no Member on the opposite benches seems able to recall this document.
We brought in no charges.
Will Deputy Connolly please resume his seat? I presume, Deputy Shatter, you are now concluding your passing reference to The Way Forward. Have you, Deputy Shatter, concluded your reference to The Way Forward?
I have.
Continue then.
Please, Deputy Connolly, would you resume your seat?
Deputy Shatter is the cause of all this.
Deputy Lenihan, will you please resume your seat and allow business to continue? Continue Deputy Shatter, on Item No. 8, the writ.
I assure you I shall not refer again to The Way Forward. I leave it to Deputies opposite to inform themselves. On the writ, when this writ is moved successfully and this by-election is held the people of Laoighis-Offaly will be able to judge the honesty and relevance of the approach of this Government as compared with the irrelevance and dishonesty of approach by the Opposition and the political camouflage Deputies opposite are engaged in.
The other matter is that I was referring to the fact that Members opposite were presenting a performance of great enthusiasm for knocking on doors in Laoighis-Offaly and apparently pretending to both the media and Members on this side of the House that they were all straining at the leash before rushing out into the constituency for the by-election and their enthusiasm knew no bounds. I find that somewhat difficult to understand in the context of remarks made by Deputies opposite outside this House who have indicated their delight and relief because there will not be a by-election.
Deputy O'Keeffe will cease interrupting. Deputy Shatter, without interruption.
Indeed, the lack of enthusiasm as compared to the pretence of enthusiasm is all too obvious.
Would Deputy Connolly please restrain himself?
On a point of order, is it any wonder there is trouble in the country when Deputy Shatter originates this kind of thing?
That is not a point of order. Deputy Shatter now.
In the context of the enthusiasm and vociferousness of Members opposite it is interesting to note from my understanding of whispers and rumours, together with what I learned during the Adjournment of the House, that there is a very real and plausible reason why Members opposite are shouting, getting excited and trying to put pressure on the Chair to adjourn. It is because in the great enthusiasm in moving the writ I understand that in or about 11.30 or 11.45 a.m. there was something in the region of 25 to 30 Members of the Fianna Fáil Party who had not yet come in to vote on the writ.
Order. Deputy Shatter, you are provoking interruptions. Will you please keep to the subject under debate?
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I will be very glad to try to keep my own troops in order. Three times I have raised a point of order and on each occasion I have been interrupted. We, on this side, are being pounded and quoted and we are suffering all the time in debates in this House. Our Members are being suspended——
If the Deputies opposite behaved themselves they will not be put out. Let them behave themselves.
When a Deputy was making a very good adjournment speech and was being provoked nothing happened. If we are going to have fair play then it must be on both sides. I accept that at times we are unruly but certainly Deputy Shatter is away out of order——
That is a matter for the Chair.
May I be allowed to make my point? The Deputy has been warned on three occasions by the Chair. If that happened on this side of the House he would be suspended; but you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, are allowing the Deputy to continue despite three warnings and I find that totally unreasonable.
I am doing my utmost to ensure the debate will continue without acrimony and I am appealing now to Deputy Shatter to continue on Item No. 8. If the Deputy does not confine himself to the matter before the House I shall be forced to call the Ceann Comhairle back. I do not want disorderly conduct on either side of the House. I want the debate to continue in a peaceful manner. Deputy Shatter now without interruption on the item on the agenda.
Deputy John Kelly made a point, a point I made earlier, which is worthy of consideration. I appreciate the atmosphere created by a pending by-election and were we in Opposition we might well adopt a similar attitude, should we be on that side of the House and Fianna Fáil on this side of the House, unlikely as that may be — it may happen at some future date. An issue of direct relevance is worthy of consideration and Deputy Kelly referred to the phenomenon of by-elections, such as the one that will be held ultimately in Laoighis-Offaly, and it is my experience since June 1981 that there have been five or six by-elections and during that period it has been the experience of all, if they think about it reasonably and honestly, that when by-elections take place the business of Government slowly grinds to a halt. In the last ten days prior to such an election Ministers and others concentrate much of their energies on the campaign. A great deal of time is spent on this concentration. Not alone does Government suffer but the work of this House suffers. The work of this Oireachtas goes into a legislative limbo. Business is agreed between the Whips. That has been the practice with successive Governments. I am not casting any aspersions on the Members opposite, but when an election is held Whips normally agree on business of a non-contentious nature. By and large, much of the business is non-contentious and usually consists of items which do not require time for long and laborious debates. TDs from all sides of the house can then electioneer in their constituencies without being confined to the House for the purpose of voting. In a sense for the three weeks they become electioneers and canvassers rather than legislators. The time has come when we as a democracy——
The Deputy has gone astray. Could the Chair bring him back to the debate?
——should look at a different system. The case is made by Deputy Kelly, which is also my case and has been made by some Members opposite — if not in this House, certainly elsewhere — for reconsidering our whole system to deal with the difficulties which arise when a Member leaves this House or passes away, as happened unfortunately in the case of the late Deputy Cowen. That system requires a great deal of examination and questioning. Of its nature it is undemocratic rather than democratic within the multi-seat proportional representation system. Certainly, it gives voters in a particular constituency an opportunity at a particular time during a Government's lifespan to cast a vote in a particular direction. So far, the seat has always been regained by the party which suffered the loss as a result of the death of the Member. That has happened because by-elections so far have been held in constituencies in respect of which the deceased Deputy was a member of the party which held the largest number of first preference votes. In each of the constituencies in which there have been by-elections since 1981, the proportional party-political representation which originated from the proceeding general election has been retained. That may or may not happen in Laoighis-Offaly. Deputy Kelly has expressed a view on that.
In real terms a by-election within a multi-seat proportional representation constituency electoral system is, of its nature, undemocratic. For a Deputy representing a constituency in which his political party has only a small share of the vote, not having the majority share of first preference and not accumulating a majority from their own preferences and from transfer votes from other smaller parties, ultimately what happens is a form of representation which does not reflect the political allegiances or views of the constituents.
Take my own constituency, Dublin South. I hope that it never happens, or certainly not for many years, but if, God forbid, one of the two Fianna Fáil Deputies in that constituency, Deputy Andrews or Deputy Brennan, were to die or to leave the political life, resulting in a by-election there, on the basis of the votes cast in that constituency, unless my own party had done something totally outrageous or one of us representing the constituency on behalf of the Fine Gael Party had gone completely mad, it would be inevitable that the Fine Gael party would get that seat, and Fine Gael would have four seats and Fianna Fáil one. No doubt we, as a party, would laud that as a great step forward or victory, but the reality, which I accept, is that would not truly reflect the political allegiances or wishes of the entire electorate in Dublin South. It is only good or ill-luck, whichever way one looks at it, which has resulted in by-elections held since 1981 not reflecting the political balance in the constituencies. Of their nature by-elections within the proportional representation system are undemocratic and we have a duty to look into this. We also should examine the system because of its effect on Government and on the activities of this House. Some Members may be enthusiastic about by-elections but I have no doubt, from feedback received from Members of all political parties outside this House, not just in my constituency but in others, that because by-elections under the present system hold up the business of Government and because of their effect on individual constituencies, they are viewed as a political luxury which we cannot afford. They are seen by politicians and political parties as self-indulgence and by the vast majority of the general public as an unnecessary and expensive diversion from the business of Government.
That is the Deputy's opinion.
We have a duty seriously to consider that as an issue. I have no doubt that some Members opposite would say that I am being undemocratic and am frightened of a by-election. That is the caricature response.
It is the truth.
The Deputy knows that it is true.
They will say the Government and the Fine Gael Party are frightened of this by-election. I accept that if I were in the position of Deputies opposite there would be a great temptation to say that.
That will not be long if the Deputy's Government keep going the way they are going.
With a bit of luck, it might grab a headline. We must, as Members of this House, eventually seriously consider this issue but not in the emotional terms of a pending by-election. After the by-election in Laoighis-Offaly and the Euro-elections, I hope that we will be able responsibly to consider this issue as political parties and Members of this House. It is worth putting in the context of the constitutional provision to which Deputy Kelly referred. There is no doubt that the 1937 Constitution was adopted by the then Deputy de Valera who envisaged an entirely different system of by-elections from the normal elections called at general election time.
This has nothing to do with the debate.
The Article of the Constitution designed specifically to deal with this issue states expressly——
He is trying to hit the headlines.
The Deputy should not be running away from the by-election.
——that election to membership of Dáil Éireann, including the filling of casual vacancies, shall be regulated in accordance with law. Article 16, sub-article 7 clearly envisages a different way of filling vacancies in the Dáil from the holding of by-elections in the manner used to date. I see no reason why we should not take our example from some of the democracies——
The Deputy will get his answer in the Laoighis-Offaly by-election.
When the Deputy would not go on holidays.
——in Europe and in the EEC where they have created a totally different system. There is no reason why we should mirror the English system, as we tend to at present.
The Deputy wants to change our way of life.
I would hope that the Members opposite would see my remarks — and I appear to have upset them by some others that I have made — as being an attempt to make a relevant contribution to deal with the existing problem——
It was a poor attempt.
——which we in this House have not yet been willing to tackle. We need to get away from the whole by-election atmosphere and the pressures which they impose on Government Ministers——
We should not have elections at all.
——who in different times would behave in a more reasonable and sensible way than some in the past have behaved when by-elections have been held. A specific example of this is that as a member of Dublin County Council I saw, epitomising——
We had The Way Forward and now the Deputy is in Dublin County Council. Will he please keep to the motion before the House.
The effect of the pressures of by-elections on Government Ministers was seen — I hope there will be no such pressures this time in the context of Laoighis-Offaly — in the context of the Dublin-West by-election when the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Ray Burke, turned a sod for the building of the Chapelizod by-pass at a time when nobody had been trapped into building it.
I appealed to Deputy Shatter time and time again to stay with Item No. 8. Turning the sod wherever he turned it has no bearing on Item No. 8. Will the Deputy please stay with the motion?
I agree with you in that sense. The turning of the sod on that occasion has no relevance to the building of the Chapelizod by-pass or the particular by-election but Members opposite get upset when this particular matter is referred to.
On a point of order, I have listened for some time and I think I interpret the Deputy as suggesting a change in legislation in respect of by-elections. I ask you if you regard that as being appropriate to the motion before the House?
I appeal to Deputy Shatter in his concluding remarks, as I have appealed to him on several occasions before this, to confine his remarks to Item No. 8.
I will do more than appeal, I will ask the Deputy to stay with Item No. 8. Unless the Deputy does that I may be forced to take some action that I would not like to take. The Deputy will have to confine his concluding remarks, as he emphasised, to Item No. 8.
Apart from the irrelevant matter to which the Deputy is referring, I ask you to adjudicate on what seems to me to be the whole theme of his contribution, which is that he is advocating——
Perhaps we should have a judicial inquiry to investigate that.
I allowed the Deputy to refer to his interest in seeing the changes but it was only a passing reference. The Ceann Comhairle also allowed it. I am doing my utmost to ensure that he confines himself to Item No. 8 in his concluding remarks.
The attitude the Government have adopted in relation to this particular writ is a responsible and sensible attitude and I have no doubt it is an attitude and an approach that will be applauded outside the House not merely by the general public, but particularly by the people of Laoighis-Offaly. I believe they will see it clearly as sensible that a by-election be held to coincide with the European elections so that the additional expense that would arise for the Government in having a separate by-election will not be incurred and so that the Government and, indeed, the Opposition, will not be diverted from the very important business this House should deal with during the course of the next two months by having a by-election. I have no doubt that it will be applauded by everybody outside the House and, as I said earlier, I have no doubt that it will be applauded in the corridors by many members of the party opposite.
Deputy O'Rourke made the point that people in Laoighis-Offaly are very anxious to have a fifth Deputy again representing the constituency. One can understand that. It was very distressing to see a Deputy of the young age of Deputy Ber Cowen, pass away in the way he did. I believe all of us share that view. There are four able Deputies representing that constituency. The population of Laoighis-Offaly is approximately 109,000 and there is an electorate of approximately 71,000. Deputy Mary O'Rourke said there is a constitutional provision designating how many Deputies are required to represent a specific proportion of the population. She suggested that by delaying the moving of this writ by a couple of months the Government were in some way depriving the electorate in Laoighis-Offaly of a constitutional right in relation to the representation to which they are entitled. I have no doubt that the people of Laoighis-Offaly are entitled to be represented by five Deputies and I have no doubt that they will be represented by five Deputies after polling day on 17 June next. It is worth making the point that this House and all Deputies have been somewhat indulgent in the number of Members of this House we regard as essential to properly represent the electorate but there is a great feeling outside the House that there are too many Deputies in it.
The number of Deputies in the House, whether they are in excess or under the number, has no bearing whatever on the by-election in Laoighis-Offaly.
The Constitution envisages one Deputy per 30,000 of the electorate as sufficient, not one Deputy for 20,000 which is the practice which has developed. Within the constitutional democratic framework the people of Laoighis-Offaly are properly represented at the present time. Of course, we all accept that they are entitled to their additional Deputy. I will conclude by saying that the Government are correct in postponing the moving of the writ for a number of weeks and they are correct in having the by-election on the same day as the European elections. Any suggestion that in some way they are behaving in an undemocratic fashion or depriving the constituency of essential representation is a totally gross and inaccurate misrepresentation of fact.
The only conclusion I can reach for the reason for the Members opposite wanting enthusiastically to pretend in the House that they want to move the writ is that shortly the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis will be held and they hope that if the writ is quickly moved there will be some electoral victory to point to for the faithful to support. If I were them I would be a little bit more cautious. Maybe they should temper their enthusiasm because if this side of the House called their bluff and permitted the by-election to be held the result might be very different from what they expect and the effect on the forthcoming Ard Fheis might be devastatingly different from the result they would like to see brought about.
The whole case made by Deputy Shatter and earlier on by Deputy Kelly is one against democracy. Of course democracy is inconvenient, of course general elections are inconvenient, by-elections are inconvenient and Dáil Éireann is inconvenient. If you put the sort of argument that is being pushed here by Deputy Shatter and earlier on by Deputy Kelly you are into a very dangerous area where what is convenient is some form of Fascist or totalitarian State where democracy can be made redundant.
I believe that democracy is very important in this respect. It has an educational effect on a two-way basis. It is not just the business of Deputies and potential Deputies going down to the people. There is also the question of the people educating people like Deputy Shatter and teaching them the basic moves of Irish life when they go down to a constituency like Laoighis-Offaly and learning to understand something outside the confinement of the jungle to which they have heretofore been confined. The sort of political education Deputy Shatter might get in Counties Laoighis and Offaly might make him a far better conducted Deputy in the House than he has shown himself to be here today.
There is no fee for him down there.
I am tempted to move to a Dublin constituency too.
On a point of order——
He might get a few marital problems down there and charge a big fee.
I have no wish to interrupt the Deputy.
Then sit down.
I have no wish to behave in the manner in which the Opposition are behaving but I must comment on what Deputy Tunney said.
He is happy to say it again.
His comment was a slight on my character and is something which is not normally permitted in the House. He effectively suggested that my contribution was purely related to the fact that someone will not pay me a fee for something and that I might not discover any marital problems in Laoighis-Offaly. That is a disgraceful comment to make and it should be withdrawn. For the Deputy's benefit, I know more about the marital problems in Laoighis-Offaly than he will ever know.
On a point of order, I listened with great attention to Deputy Shatter when he made a whole litany of allegations against the people on this side of the House. It is fair comment for me to say that perhaps one of the reasons he would not relish spending three weeks or a month working for his party in Laoighis-Offaly is that it might remove him from more remunerative business in Dublin. I do not intend withdrawing that as it is a fair political comment.
That is all the Deputy is capable of.
There is an important educative element in democracy. Regular recourse to the people for their views improves our understanding of national and local problems. It is important that we should not be confined to the Dáil. We should have contact with people between elections when casual vacancies occur. The whole purpose of the excellent legislation we have providing for by-elections, which is in accordance with the relevant article of the Constitution, is to ensure that the people are consulted whenever a casual vacancy occurs. Surely that is the proper process and is in accordance with the democratic tradition we all cherish.
I defend by-elections as being a proper way in between general elections to test and assess public opinion. As was said by Deputy Hyland earlier, Laoighis-Offaly is a microcosm of the country as a whole. It is a series of small and medium sized towns. It has excellent farming. It also has resources such as peat and electricity generation. There is a balance of economic and social activity in that constituency which makes it a particularly suitable one in which to test public opinion and assess public attitudes. That surely is the essence of the democratic process. We will not be driven into making decisions by consulting artifically-taken gallup polls or market surveys where politics is given Daz treatment.
The democratic process involves talking to the people about live political issues and personalities. We do not need any market survey trickesters or gallup poll tricksters to teach us democracy when as politicians we are given the privilege, through the unfortunate demise of some Member, of testing public opinion in whatever constituency the casual vacancy occurs. If Deputy Kelly was present I would say to him that it is intellectually dishonest — I am very fond of him——
It is mutual.
——to suggest that there is any comparison between Ireland and the north western European democracies he mentioned such as Denmark, Holland, Norway and so on. They operate a list system in these countries which is totally different from ours. They do not need to hold by-elections because all they do is add on the next person on the list. Their system is an anti-personality system and is alien to our system and tradition. It is not in accordance with our law as it operates at present. We must operate under the law that exists.
They add on the next person on the list who is of the same party so that the party which loses the seat in fact holds it.
Yes. At a general election a party list is approved and if a casual vacancy arises the next person on the list, who would be the first unsuccessful candidate at a general election, would fill the vacancy.
Such as we have for the European elections.
There is no comparison between that system and the one we operate under our legislation. The proportional representation system and the multiple seat system, no matter how we complain about it, is a personality orientated system. There is only one way in which a vacancy can be filled and that is by appealing to people by way of a by-election to make their decision. It is ridiculous and ludicrous for Deputy Shatter to suggest that there is something undemocratic in that approach. There is only one seat to be filled and it is filled by way of popular vote in the constituency. There is no other way to do it.
The Deputy made the point about some advantage lying with the party who lost the seat through the demise of a Member. That is not the case. The party who held the seat have often lost it. Deputy Connolly spoke earlier about a by-election which occurred 20 years ago in Laoighis-Offaly in 1964 or 1965.
It was 1958.
The party who lost the seat was the Labour Party. It was the late Deputy Bill Davin who lost the seat and his son was put forward. Fine Gael supported his son but we won the seat on that occasion and in the subsequent general election we had an overall majority. It is not true to suggest that there is any association between the demise of a Deputy and his party retaining the seat. The one reason why we win by-elections is because public opinion is on our side. It is because the Government fear to face public opinion that they are opposing the holding of this by-election. They know that they will get the same answer in Laoighis-Offaly as they got in Dublin Central a few months ago. A by-election is the best barometer of public opinion. It is our duty to ensure that when a vacancy occurs public opinion is tested as soon as possible.
After the decency of a month's mind we put down this motion with a view to ensuring that the vacancy would be filled as quickly as possible. That has been the democratic procedure in the House. There is no point in quoting precedents which are not relevant. There were two recent occasions where vacancies occurred which were not filled. One was in 1977 when the then Deputy Burke went to Europe as Commissioner. The Government of the day opposed the holding of any by-election on the basis that there was an impending general election. The Taoiseach at the time, Deputy Cosgrave, and the Government opposed the holding of a by-election because a general election would be held in June and they could not see the point in having a by-election within six months of a general election.
In 1981, when the Government were in opposition, Deputy O'Kennedy went to Europe and they challenged us to hold a by-election. We refused because there was a general election in the offing. They are the only two cases in which a by-election was not held and there were very good reasons in each case. This does not apply in this case. The Government are supposed to be coasting along. Why not test their budget and policies? There is no imminent general election and therefore the by-election should be held. The reason they are not holding the by-election is because they are afraid to face the music. They have been well beaten in Dublin and Donegal which are two representative areas. Laoighis-Offaly is a third representative area and would give a good indication of how people feel. That sample is far more important than that of a marketing survey organisation. The Government are running away from the by-election because they know we will win it.
Fine Gael are in total disarray in the constitutency of Laoighis-Offaly. If they cannot agree on the nomination of a candidate that is no reason for not allowing a writ to be issued here and putting their policies to the people. It is an internal problem and they should face up to it.
Is this more relevant than The Way Forward?
When Fianna Fáil were in Government by-elections were held as quickly as possible. I believe the Government are making a mistake in this regard. If they had any fire in their bellies, any belief in their policies or any spirit, they would hold the by-election and test public opinion. They do not appear to have the guts, spirit or enterprise to do so. If I were advising the Government in this matter I would urge them to go ahead. Democracy is about the competitive challenge of opposing points of view and personalities. They have failed miserably in this respect and it will not do them any good because the reaction of the public will be that the Government are windy.
It is because the Deputy was giving advice that he is over there and I am over here.
The Government cannot do U-turns in matters of this kind. A short time ago the Taoiseach advocated not holding local elections on the same day as European elections. He said it would take from European elections——
There is no comparison——
What the Taoiseach said was reinforced in this House the other day on the occasion of Justin Keating's nomination for the casual vacancy in the European Parliament when Deputy Pattison said it would be inappropriate to have a by-election when it was suggested that the matter should be left over until the European elections. He also said that the electorate should not be confused by two different elections. There is a lot of sense in that argument but why then is it proposed to hold a by-election on the same day as the European elections? It is for a petty, mean reason: the Government know they are going to be beaten and they feel that their by-election defeat would be buried in the general result of the European election. It is just a mean, low, snide and petty approach to electioneering and democracy.
The main problem is finding a candidate.
The by-election campaign will be subsumed into a European election campaign, count and result. Deputy Connolly is probably right when he said that the real problem is that Fine Gael have not yet selected a candidate——
I allowed you to refer to that earlier on. Please do not repeat it.
We have a number of excellent candidates going forward who are all anxious to stand. We will have the best candidate in the field and will win the by-election when we get the chance to do so. The attitude of the Government is negative and seems to ignore the necessity for going to the people to fill casual vacancies as laid down in legislation. The holding of a by-election is just as informative and educative as sitting here engaging in sterile debates over many months and losing touch with the people. I have fought by-elections over many years and emerged from each one more educated in my perspective of how the country functions and how communities work, what makes them improve and develop. It is important for Deputies of all political parties to go out during a by-election and see for themselves the problems that exist in particular constituencies. Deputies like Deputy Shatter would have a limited perspective coming from a highly urbanised constituency and could benefit enormously from visiting a rural constituency and seeing the problems. It would enable them to have a much broader view of the problems of the country as a whole.
There is a very important aspect which makes it imperative that the will of the people of Laoighis-Offaly be tested. Within those two counties are mirrored all the major social problems of our society. There is the problem of how to rationalise our energy supply and ensure the development of our natural resources, such as peat, to the maximum extent. There is also the problem of how to utilise electricity and to maximise employment. This is an area of importance to the country as a whole and it is a key issue in this constituency. Very important problems must be faced and we in Fianna Fáil want to see these problems resolved because we claim to be the people who initiated the development of our national resources in those two counties. Successive Fianna Fáil Governments promoted the development of peat and its use in the generation of electricity and we do not want to see any Government reneging on these developments. Progress must be maintained and expanded in the national interest.
Apart from the employment aspect, reliance on our natural resources makes good economic sense and we will debate that issue fully in Laoighis-Offaly when we get the opportunity. The people of that area should be contributing to that debate rather than discussions being held in some committee and submissions being taken from bureaucrats and technocrats. Every one of us should go there and assess the situation on the ground and then come back to the House or to a relevant committee and make an appropriate contribution based on the knowledge gathered in these two counties. If off-farm employment were not available in this area there would be a total breakdown of the social fabric. Many jobs are now provided by the rational development of our natural resources and it is a key factor in our economic development that we husband those resources.
It is also an appropriate time to consult the people of Laoighis-Offaly because the issue of local authority financing is relevant. Every local authority is facing a massive shortfall. A large number of people will have to be let go because the Exchequer grant is down substantially in every county and they are unable to meet their basic responsibilities. This is the time of year when local authorities can usually give employment in roadworks and other construction works but that is not possible this year due to financial difficulties.
These two counties are traditionally strong in relation to agricultural production of every kind but particularly tillage, beef and milk. There are enterprising farmers who have made the fullest use of the CAP by increasing their herds and developing farm output. They are very concerned about the progress of the CAP and would like to hear the views of the Minister for Agriculture on the question of the super-levy and its effect on milk production unless Ireland secures a reasonable outcome from the current negotiations. There is also the matter of the disadvantaged areas scheme and its non-applicability to this constituency. It could be expanded with a view to the inclusion of the whole of these two counties in the scheme.
There is a range of current issues on which the people of Laoighis-Offaly would like to give a view and they are being deprived of the opportunity of doing so. I would say to the Government: "Take your courage in your hands. Go ahead and have your by-election. Win or lose we will all benefit from the experience of seeing these people and their problems." Nothing is to be gained by postponing the matter. It is anti-democratic and is a cowardly approach on the part of any Government. It is a wrong approach and is interfering with the European elections.
I would refer briefly to one of the comments made by Deputy Lenihan. He said that everyone of us should go down to the Laoighis-Offaly constituency, assess the situation on the ground and come back here. One of the main reasons we should not have a by-election is that we should not all vacate Leinster House and go down to a constituency while the most important business of sorting out the economy is neglected. That is what has usually happened when by-elections have been fought. It is a waste of resources, time and energy when the Government or the two main parties go to a constituency to fight a by-election.
