asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is satisfied with the present TB and brucellosis eradication programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - TB/Brucellosis Eradication.
11.
I am very satisfied with the Brucellosis Eradication Scheme which has been a resounding success in recent years. A measure of the progress achieved is the fact that there are now only 1,300 herds restricted because of brucellosis compared with some 14,000 herds as recently as 1980. I am confident that the final elimination of this disease is now in sight.
Deputies will be aware from my recent public statement that I am far from satisfied with progress under the TB Eradication Scheme over the past three years. Consequently, I have set in train a comprehensive review of all aspects of the scheme. A strategy for the future will be decided in the light of that review.
(Limerick West): I accept the recent statement by the Minister for Agriculture on this matter. How soon will the review be concluded? When a conclusion has been reached and it has been passed to the Minister, will he implement the necessary decisions of the review body in order to accelerate the eradication of bovine TB?
The Minister is acutely aware of the problem created by the incidence of TB. The results of the current review should be ready within the next few months at the very latest. It is a very in-depth review and great note will certainly be taken of its recommendations.
(Limerick West): Is the Minister aware that there is not sufficient consultation with the veterinary profession in the field, the general practitioner, and also with the veterinary surgeons of the Minister's own Department in the local offices? Have they been included in this consultation and if so, by what means?
I am not in a position to say exactly what has happened in this regard but I have no doubt that consultations will be held with every organisation and individual involved.
(Limerick West): My information is that this is not being done and if it is not being done, would the Minister ensure that it will be?
While there is an overall improvement, there are still isolated areas, especially in my constituency, which cause concern. Would the Minister not agree that we should not depend solely on the veterinary officers but should ask the other agencies such as ACOT to deal specifically with these areas to try to find the cause of the problem? Many reasons have been put forward — badgers, drinking from contaminated streams, rabbits. Is it not time for us to identify the source of the infection in those areas where there is a collapse of herds due to TB?
I can promise the Deputy that every effort will be made to examine all the necessary aspects of this matter and I can guarantee that there will be action on the proposal.
Question 12.
(Limerick West): One final supplementary question, please. Is the Minister satisfied that the present legislation is strong enough to bring before the courts offending farmers and all who do not comply with the disease eradication legislation? Is he also aware that there are isolated pockets, in areas where the disease is prevalent, where no testing has been carried out?
I can assure the House that any persons, irrespective of who they are, who are found to be in breach of the animal diseases regulations will be dealt with. I draw the Deputy's attention to recent court cases and these cases will be more frequent to show how seriously the Government view the matter.
(Limerick West): Is the Minister aware——
The Deputy said he was asking his last supplementary question.
(Limerick West): This arises from the Minister's reply. Does he consider that the procedure to bring those in breach of the regulations to justice is fast enough?
In so far as one can see at present, while we are currently looking at all proposals, I would have thought in recent times that the existing procedure is adequate to deal with the situation.
Would the Minister agree——
This is the final supplementary on this question.
Would he agree that the machinery up to now has not been adequate to identify the causes of the disease in many instances in these breakdowns? Up to now, the Government were depending on the system of repeating tests, using disinfectant and washing out premises. It is time that we examined the root cause and could tell farmers the areas to watch. The people in my constituency are at present in a quandary, because they receive no information with regard to the cause of the disease. There will have to be an in-depth study to identify clearly the reason for the spread of the disease.
As I said, that is exactly what we are examining at the moment.
12.
asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is satisfied that the actual test being used in the TB eradication scheme is sufficiently accurate and specific; the research that has been done on this problem and funds allocated for it in the last 30 years; if any other country is using or has used this particular test; the number of reactors subsequently slaughtered that turn out to be free of any symptoms of the disease; the number of clear herds that have had spontaneous outbreaks of TB; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
The tuberculin test is the most reliable test available and it has been the basis of bovine TB eradication programmes throughout the world.
In other countries research has been carried out with a view to finding an alternative reliable serological test; this research has proved fruitless. No such research has been undertaken here but all batches of tuberculin are laboratory tested to ensure that the standard of potency is maintained at the highest possible level.
Visible lesions are detected in 25 per cent of TB reactors during routine post mortem examination. That is consistent with the experience in other countries. The absence of visible lesions does not mean, of course, that the animal is free of the disease.
Spontaneous outbreaks of bovine TB do not occur. All breakdowns arise from direct or indirect transmission of the disease from an infected animal. About 6,600 herds are at present restricted because of bovine TB.
Does the Minister realise that the figure of 2 per cent given by his Department on this programme does not include the 6 per cent of reactors showing up under the 30-day test or the 8 per cent in reactor herds? Does the Minister feel that the figure of 2 per cent can be justified as a result?
First of all, in absolute terms the number of herds restricted is 6,600. Whatever way one tends to equate that in percentages, as far as we are concerned 6,600 herds are restricted. In my view, that would represent about 2.3 per cent.
Does the Minister agree that the failure of the entire TB eradication scheme, despite the large amount of money which has been invested in it over the last 30 years, is largely due to the current TB test not being used sufficiently elsewhere to justify our taking it as a measure? Also, what investigation has been done heretofore on the method of the spread of TB infection in Ireland and does the Minister stand over his statement that it is only from direct contact with other animals that the disease can be spread?
I shall take the last part of the Deputy's question first. On this whole question of the spread of TB, veterinary experience down through the years, not alone in this country but in Europe, shows that it is by lateral spread, in other words, it must be transmitted from an infected animal. Many would question that finding in the sense that there are outbreaks of this disease in isolated areas, but the information at my disposal would indicate that if the reason is traced back properly, the flare-up of a particular disease can be traced to an infected animal somewhere. On the whole question of the movement of cattle, all these regulations have been tightened up in recent years. Despite that, we have not been happy with the results of the TB eradication scheme. It is to be hoped that in the very near future, in the new conditions prevailing, we shall wipe out this disease.
(Limerick West): Is the Minister happy that adequate research and laboratory facilities are available within his Department to determine the cause of the disease?
From the laboratory point of view, the actual research work mentioned, such as on tuberculins and the like, has not been undertaken here. As the House will be well aware, we are in constant contact with the laboratories in other countries in which these tests are carried out and I am very happy with this arrangement. Our problem would be that heretofore research on the ground, particularly on the identification of the source of the disease, would need to be improved from my experience of the last number of years.
(Limerick West): Arising out of the Minister's reply——
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Noel Treacy.
Arising from the Minister's earlier reply to the effect that TB in animals can be traced back to some particular location, would he like to inform the House what effects the 30-day test have on the situation regarding TB eradication?
There is no doubt that the 30-day tests have identified many reactor animals which would otherwise have gone undetected. The figures prove that. It can, however, be conclusively proved that the 30-day test on its own will not have the desired effect. In conjunction with other solutions which are being looked at at the moment, it is to be hoped that it will be successful.
Could the Minister name for us some of the other countries who use the same tuberculin test as ourselves and have done so with success in clearing TB?
In 1979 we were using tuberculin from Weybridge in England. The potency trials on that particular consignment in 1979 showed there might be other agencies and other countries that could supply us with a better product. A change was made on that occasion to Holland. It is against that background that we have been using the Dutch tuberculin since then.
Is it being used with success in other countries in the eradication of disease?
I do not want to get too technical but there are two injections, as Deputies are aware, at separate sites. There is the avian tuberculin and the bovine tuberculin. We still use the avian tuberculin, which is used in many other countries. The bovine tuberculin, which is now being used in other countries, has being used here for the last four or five years. I am satisfied that the turberculin we use is on a par with our European counterparts.
What funds have been allocated for research? Could the Minister tell the House how many people are employed in research by the Department?
That is a separate question and it is coming up afterwards.
It arises out of Deputy Doyle's question so far as the funds for research are concerned.
The financial arrangement for the research programme is that it is the overall budget for animal disease. I have no information on the number concerned because that is not in the question.
The Minister said that all outbreaks are the result of direct transmission. Herds can be free of TB for as long as ten years and all of a sudden there can be a spontaneous outbreak. Is there any research in the Department to show that the resistance to TB is lessened over a period of time and the administration of the injection may cause the disease apart from any other reason?
From a veterinary point of view the answer is no. It appears there has to be contact. That does not necessarily mean that the contact would have to be between one cow and another. It could, of course, be transmitted by other animals. It is a lateral spread and there is no veterinary advice available to me that would suggest otherwise.
13.
asked the Minister for Agriculture if he will consider returning identity cards immediately to herdowners whose herds have been restricted because of bovine TB and whose reactor cattle have killed out free of lesions without having to wait for two further tests.
Visible lesions can be expected in only 25 per cent of TB reactors and are present only when the disease is at a comparatively advanced stage. The absence of visible lesions is not an indication that animals are free from TB. Restrictions must therefore continue to apply to all TB reactor herds until these have passed two consecutive herd tests, and there can be no question of returning cattle identity cards to herdowners when post mortem inspection fails to reveal visible TB lesions.
(Limerick West): Would the Minister consider eliminating completely the identity card and replacing it by a movement permit which would ensure proper identification when animals are moved from one area to another?
It would appear to the Chair that that is a different topic altogether and comes up in another question.
14.
asked the Minister for Agriculture the amount of money to be provided for disease eradication this year.
The provision for the disease eradication schemes this year amounts to £21 million.
15.
asked the Minister for Agriculture the action he will take in view of the increasing cost of administering and operating the TB and brucellosis eradication scheme.
As I announced recently, my Department are engaged in a comprehensive review of all aspects of the disease eradication programme. Examination of the costs involved in administering and operating the programme will be included in the review.
Would the Minister agree, despite questions being raised on this issue over the years, that the cost of administering the scheme is continually increasing even with the fall-off in the number of herds?
As the Deputy is well aware, because we have two schemes running parallel, the TB and brucellosis schemes, we have to keep records on 181,000 herds which extend to about 7,000,000 cattle. This in itself causes certain staffing problems. One of the reasons the staffing has to be as high as it is is that the two schemes are running parallel.
Would the Minister not agree that, with the sophisticated equipment, such as computers, which is available at the moment, the staff has increased from what it was when the scheme was set up by about 50 per cent? Is it not time this was looked into very closely to see where savings can be made? Would the Minister not agree that compensatory payments are more important than excessive administrative costs?
I would like to remind the Deputy, in case we get a slanted view of the administrative costs involved, that in 1982 the cost of administration was £8.4 million or 28 per cent of the gross expenditure on the programme and in 1983 it was about £8.7 million. This shows that there is not such a great increase in the actual expenditure in the two years.
Would the Minister agree that over the years the number of staff has increased and their salaries did not decrease. There was a continuing increase in staff from about 800 to 1,200 administering the scheme.
The overall costs in the last number of years have not risen, as I outlined.