Estimates 1984. - Vote 41: Communications (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (24th Dáil) – Thursday, 29 Mar 1984

Estimates 1984. - Vote 41: Communications (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £125,787,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1984, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Communications and of certain other services administered by that Office, for a cost alleviation payment and for payment of certain grants and a grant-in-aid.

—(Minister for Communications.)

Mr. Leyden

I was talking about the decision by RTE to jam the airwaves and to deprive something like 80,000 young people of a radio service which they desire to listen to. I said before Question Time that I put full responsibility on the Minister, Deputy Mitchell, and his Minister of State, Deputy Nealon. The situation in relation to Sunshine Radio Productions Limited is unique. I remind the House that on 20 December 1983 Sunshine Radio Productions Limited made a submission to the Joint Committee on Legislation of this House. It is unusual that the people who were criticising that organisation were prepared to allow a submission to be made orally to a legislative committee of this House. Again it emphasises the ambivalence and ambiguity of the problem of that radio station. The institutions of the State give de facto recognition to the station because they are a limited company paying PRSI and PAYE contributions and are provided with telecommunications services. In the circumstances we should give due regard to the unique position of this radio station and, pending the legislation, I ask the Minister to reiterate to the House before the close of this debate today the position regarding the decision by RTE to carry out test signals on the frequencies on which the station is operating at present. I pose those questions to the Minister because in his statement he has not clarified to my satisfaction exactly what has taken place in the last few weeks regarding the decision by RTE to carry out these test transmissions. I presume that an application was made to the Minister to allow RTE to test on these frequencies, and I would like to know if that permission has been withdrawn. It is the Minister's responsibility as Minister for Communications to allocate frequencies. That residual power of the Department has been retained. RTE would not legally be able to test those signals except with complete premission and authority from the Minister for Communications. I pose those questions to the Minister and the Minister of State in an effort to clarify exactly the steps the Minister took over the last few weeks regarding this controversy. Has he given a directive to RTE to desist from taking action on their own in relation to the suppression of broadcasting here in this city?

I appreciate the frustrations within the RTE organisation regarding the present unsatisfactory situation here in Dublin and throughout the country. The Government have dragged their heels in relation to bringing forward legislation. In 1983 we presented a Bill to the Dáil, and the Government of the time, both Coalition partners, voted down that Bill by 75 votes to 61. On 14 June 1983 the Minister said, and I quote from the Official Report, column 1428, Volume 343:

We intend to proceed quickly with the Government's legislation to enable legal local radio services to be set up on an acceptable basis for communities throughout the country. The Government's Bill will not have the defects of the Bill now before us and will allow the flexibility necessary for the development of services which will meet a very wide range of community needs and interests.

Nine months later no action has been taken, no Bill is before the House and the chaotic situation which existed then still exists. The Minister by his lack of activity is totally and directly responsible for the situation which has arisen in Dublin here in relation to the broadcasting chaos. Further on the Minister said:

The drafting of this Bill will now proceed as a matter of urgency and we look forward to the co-operation of the Opposition in processing it quickly through the Oireachtas.

We have never had the opportunity of processing such a Bill because the Bill has not been produced and has not been submitted to the House for processing.

We in Fianna Fáil will give this Bill very careful consideration when it comes before the Dáil, and we will certainly co-operate to ensure that the Bill is enacted here as quickly as possible, that it passes through the Dáil and Seanad and will bring about the necessary framework and legislation to provide for the licensing of radio services here. The people involved in the twilight zone of broadcasting are not very happy in their present position. The 43 members of the staff involved in Sunshine Radio have no security of tenure and other radio stations are also affected by this difficulty. Their livelihood is also at stake and their security of tenure is not guaranteed without an opportunity for them at least to apply for a licence to an independant authority.

On 8 June 1983 the Minister of State with special responsibility for Broadcasting, Deputy Nealon, contributed to the debate and he stated, as in the Official Report, column 984, Volume 343:

It is my responsibility now to tackle the problem and I intend to do so. I assure Deputies I will do so as quickly as possible considering all that must be gone through, and there is no shortage. There is now an urgent need for order to be restored to the radio spectrum, which is a very valuable resource. I am sure that this is something which the pirates acknowledge and agree with. The radio spectrum is a finite natural resource and if used properly can be of enormous benefit for a range of services, including local radio.

Again nine months later, the Minister has not brought before the Dáil a Bill which will bring about the proper framework for legalising radio stations here. I ask him to confirm or deny that he gave an interview on Friday, 3 June 1983 to the Evening Herald stating that pirate radio stations can be on the air until licensed radio is introduced unless they interfere with emergency airwaves, and that the policy of this Government was to phase out the illegal stations, at the same time as the introduction of the new licensed stations. That statement has never been denied by the Minister or the Government. That has given encouragement to those presently operating pirate stations in this city. On 18 October 1983, in Dublin District Court No. 2, District Justice Wine made a restoration order with regard to the broadcasting equipment which was returned after a fine of £20 had been paid. Justice Wine dismissed Sunshine Radio, saying that he favoured competition in broadcasting and hoped that the situation would soon be cleared up. Yet, in March 1984, that situation continues. Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on the developments over the last week and make a clear statement to the House in relation to the steps which he has taken with regard to the jamming of the air ways.

I look forward to the publication of the report of the Joint Committee on Legislation who completed their deliberations in relation to local radio. I understand, on 14 February 1984 and within the next few weeks, will be making public the submissions made to them. I was particularly struck by the detailed assessment by Colm Kenny, Lecturer in Broadcasting at the School of Communications, NIHE, Dublin, who expressed a clear view of the developments in local radio. I was also very impressed by the submissions made by Gael Linn, Muintir na Tíre, Sunshine Radio and other organisations who put forward very interesting viewpoints to the committee. It is regrettable that that committee have not the power to make submissions or recommendations direct to the Government with regard to local broadcasting. Their work could be summed up as being in vain because of that restriction. I ask the Minister to make known his views in relation to that matter, because it would be worthwhile for the Government to listen to their recommendations.

The Taoiseach said in the Dáil recently that he hoped the Bill would be enacted before the summer recess, which is pretty soon. I hope that that will be the case, because it is a matter of priority in Government legislation. I recommend that the Bill be published as quickly as possible and we on this side shall give the matter every possible consideration and priority to ensure that the legislation will be through the Oireachtas before the summer recess and into law, with the authority having been set up to take applications and provide licences for broadcasting. It is a very important issue which should now be resolved. It is not before time.

With regard to RTE's broadcasting responsibilities, I have heard concern expressed at different times in the House on a possible bias being displayed on some occasions by RTE in relation to current affairs programmes. I shall restate that criticism today. We, as the major party of this country, are very concerned that we are not getting our fair share of broadcasting time, particularly on current affairs but also on other programmes. The Fianna Fáil view should be expressed and by giving exclusive interviews to members of the Government without a counterview being expressed by the Opposition spokesperson RTE are, in a sense, collaborating with Government policy. They were set up by this Oireachtas to be neutral in political philosophy, to operate on a fair and impartial basis. That is their responsibility. We are paying our licence fees to receive a national broadcasting service.

I must say that the general standard of broadcasting is second to none, that RTE as a public broadcasting station are equal to, if not better than, any station broadcasting, certainly in Europe. They have a very high standard of quality of broadcasters. People are broadcasting in Great Britain who were trained here and have become leaders in the broadcasting media field over there.

Here we are concerned about the trend in RTE of depriving the main Opposition Party from having an input into the majority of current affairs programmes. In the last week alone, the Minister for Education participated in an exclusive one hour live programme on RTE Radio 1. I think that this was called "Education Forum." Our spokesperson, Deputy O'Rourke, was not given the opportunity of debating with the Minister the trends in education and the development of the four year programme prepared by the Department of Education. Deputy O'Rourke did get that opportunity in this House, but it is only fair and in the national interest that the voice of the major Opposition Party should be heard on a national live broadcast by RTE dealing with educational affairs. I protest that our spokesperson was not given such opportunity.

The same could be said of a recent interview with the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Deasy, in relation to the super-levy. I am not going to go into that matter here, but the disaster perpetrated by this Government in the handling of that affair has not been exposed to the extent it should have been on the national media. We were not given an opportunity, through our spokesperson, Deputy Noonan, to challenge the Minister on the airwaves. Again, an exclusive interview was given on the programme "Day by Day" by John Bowman and our spokesperson did not have the opportunity to counteract the propaganda arranged by the so-called handlers of this Government. The organisation of the press secretary, Peter Prendergast, and all the press agencies working for this Government are certainly ensuring that the Government side is always put forward. We are entitled to a fair balance and all we seek is a fair share, not favouritism.

With regard to popular programmes listened to by something like 750,000 to one million every morning, I take for example, "The Mike Murphy Show", I challenge the producers of that programme to prepare a list of all their guests over the past 12 months. I guarantee that the majority of the politically affiliated people were not of Fianna Fáil persuasion. They were definitely on the Government and Fine Gael side. I have an opportunity of listening to that programme, particularly when travelling to the Dáil and recently the spouse of the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Fennell, was given an opportunity of trying to justify the extraordinary, insensitive actions of that lady since she became Minister for Women's Affairs. I could not possibly express adequately my revulsion at the activities of that Minister in the way she handled the——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not dealing with women's affairs at present. We are dealing with RTE and communications.

Mr. Leyden

I know that it is a sensitive issue and I am sorry that I have touched on a sensitive nerve. The lady is a colleague of yours.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

You have gone outside the ambit of this debate. I am instructing you that you are not to involve yourself, in the House anyway, with women's affairs. You are to stay within the ambit of the discussion on the Estimate.

Mr. Leyden

I am dealing with the question of RTE and the point that we are paying——

Mr. Wilson

Oh, could the transport last.

Mr. Leyden

——in the region of £31.6 million to RTE. As a licence holder, I have a right to express a view in this House. I pay my television licence which also covers radio and I am entitled to express my concern about the way we have been treated.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I did not deny you that. You are dealing with the Estimate and not with women's affairs. You have five minutes left.

Mr. Leyden

I could go through many programmes and I would express concern about them and about the treatment we have been given. Deputy Nealon is Minister of State and he has been doing a supremo's job for the Government. I once called him the propaganda Minister and I will not repeat it. He has been a very effective propagandist for the Government and has influenced and encouraged the deprivation of Fianna Fáil on the national media. We will fight that and we will succeed and survive irrespective of the best the Coalition will do, and their collaborators.

I appeal to RTE to return to the impartiality they had. When we were in Government we never imposed any restrictions on them or on the way they carried out their responsibilities. I say that in the presence of the former Minister, Deputy Wilson. When he was Minister he never involved himself in the broadcasting system or insisted on any programme that would deprive the Coalition parties of their fair share. If we are being deprived of our fair share it is only right that I should say that here.

I wish that time permitted me to go more deeply into satellite broadcasting. I understand the Minister will bring the necessary legislation before the Dáil before the station will embark on any agreement in regard to satellite broadcasting. The present consortium with which RTE are involved — I am glad to see there is such a consortium——

Mr. J. Mitchell

There are three.

Mr. Leyden

RTE are involved in only one. I understand there will have to be an amendment of the 1960 Act to allow RTE to become involved in direct satellite broadcasting. We should spend some time in a debate on State broadcasting. I welcome the Minister's decision to encourage RTE to initiate a new radio service for broadcasting to Europe. That is a good innovation because it will help our markets in Europe. I wonder why we did not get around to it earlier. We can give an opportunity to RTE broadcasters to beam into Europe and it will build up an audience for us there.

I thank the Minister for the opportunity he has given to Deputies to debate the Estimate, but I resent his criticism about the regional airport in Connacht. It is an unworthy criticism because I regard the setting up of that airport as being a far-sighted policy. I now ask the Minister to support it and to allow it to become treated and to become as successful as Shannon Airport.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications (Mr. Nealon)

Broadcasting in this country was run by the State for over 30 years up to 1960. Since 1960 when RTE, or Radio Éireann as it was then called, was established the State's involvement has been at arm's length. Throughout the whole period the national broadcasting services have served the country well. Since 1960, in particular, RTE have both reflected change in our national life and have acted as an agent of change. In doing so, they have of course at times appeared to be offering too much coverage to proponents of change at the expense of those who expressed conservative views. In such circumstances the role of the RTE Authority is a sensitive one. It is all the more so because they are an institution of the State appointed by the Government and because they have a monopoly of broadcasting within the State.

Frequently we hear RTE criticised. We have just heard them criticised by Deputy Leyden for alleged bias, for lack of balance, lack of impartiality in the programmes they transmit. These allegations come particularly from the political field, from all parties. It comes from the Labour Party because of too much alleged exposure for members of the Opposition; it comes also from Fine Gael for the same reason. Of course there will be criticisms of this kind, human nature being what it is. Overall, I believe RTE are doing an exceptional job and I want to pay tribute to them for their impartiality.

Deputy Leyden instanced a number of programmes which he said were exclusive to people representing the Government. He did not refer to the wonderful "Late Late Show" in recent times on which his own colleague from his own constituency had a free run with no one to reply. On balance, over a period these things level themselves out. In the past RTE have done a marvellous job as far as impartiality is concerned and I am glad of the opportunity Deputy Leyden has given to me to pay them that tribute, in passing. You could not have each programme totally balanced because if you did there would be a switch-off by the entire populace, which is no good.

Deputy Leyden attacked me once more. During the period when I worked for RTE I never tolerated or accepted outside interference. When I was Press Secretary to the Government and for my party, and since I became Minister with special responsibility in this area, I never interfered and I think I am respected for it. Even in very delicate areas RTE have been exceptionally impartial. Perhaps some programmes might be biased or appear to be biased on one side or the other, but during a long period, as any reasonable Deputy will agree, RTE have been impartial. We must remember RTE have a monopoly. We can think of a situation when only one newspaper would come out every day, and the allegations that would be made against that newspaper. Here RTE have a monopoly of the airways but the amount of criticism put before the broadcasting complaints committee has been minimal and the number of complaints accepted by the committee has been amazingly small.

Broadcasting is entering a new age. In the past, broadcasting operated through monopoly structures. That can no longer be the case. There is now the possibility of greater choice and a public wish for it. It is my job, as Minister of State at the Department of Communications, to help create the conditions in which broadcasting can develop and that choice can be achieved. This will come about in various ways. The most immediate development will be that of local radio services.

As the Minister indicated in his statement, it is the intention to introduce legislation shortly to establish a new local radio authority which will be responsible for selecting groups to operate local radio services throughout the country. The authority will be given some guidelines for the selection of the broadcasting contractors. These will relate mainly to the quality of the services to be provided, the competence of the proposers and their connections with the communities to be served. The authority will also have the duty of ensuring that local radio services offer a good range and quality of programming of interest to the public which they serve and that the services will be fair and balanced in their presentation of news and current affairs. There will also be various provisions in the legislation to allow the authority to promote the development of local radio to serve communities throughout the whole country.

It is the Government's wish that local radio services should be representative of the community they serve and be of direct interest to the community. The legislation which is being drafted will provide a framework that will allow of this being done but it will, of course, be a matter for themselves to take advantage of the legislation and to provide the services.

The legislation does not aim to set down a rigid format for all local radio. There will have to be different approaches in different areas to suit local conditions. Deputy Wilson mentioned that point and adverted to its merits in his contribution today. Commercial considerations will promote developments in some cases and will help to sustain them in other areas. In other cases non-commercial groups will, I expect, be able to organise and run services for their own communities. There will be no bias in the legislation against sparsely populated areas setting up stations or against non-commercial activities in local radio. Equally, there will be no bar against commercial involvement which may well serve to provide a sustaining commitment to local radio.

The legislation will not set out where local radio services should be provided or in what numbers. That will, essentially, be a matter for the new authority when it is established. The authority will of course have to take account of public wishes in relation to services and the availability and suitability of persons to provide the services. It will also have regard to the availability of frequencies which will be licensed by the Minister.

The statutory guidelines in relation to programming will not be unduly restrictive or onerous. The main duties will be to have a range of programming of good quality and of interest to all sections of the community. It will be for the authority to devise its own procedures to satisfy itself that the intentions of the legislation are being observed.

I do not wish to be contentious at this time on a Thursday evening as most Deputies head off for a busy week-end at their clinics but I should at least refer to the statements made by Deputy Leyden about the delay in bringing in this Bill. Deputy Leyden was a Minister of State in the Department and a completed Bill lay on his desk for a full year without a single comma being changed in it and without it being produced for the public to have a look at it. The Deputy has now accused us of delaying tactics but I should like to tell him that before the recess last year we had virtually completed our work. When the new Committee on Legislation was established I put forward the idea that this would be a good Bill for the new committee to have a look at to help us to get better legislation and a better local radio service. I know that view was shared by all Members. We sent that Bill to the new committee and it was an extremely useful operation. While I will have an opportunity to do so formally later, I should like on this occasion to pay tribute to the Chairman of that Committee, Deputy Mervyn Taylor, and the Members, for the excellent work they did on the Bill. The work done by Members of the Opposition on that Committee was exceedingly helpful. I believe we will have a better Bill as a result.

There will be scope for minority RTE involvement in the new local radio stations. I expect that this will be of benefit to the local communities and also to RTE. It should allow the new services access to the experience and facilities which RTE have developed over the years, that is if RTE wish to take up their shareholdings. It should also allow RTE to continue its involvement in broadcasting throughout the country and, at the same time, allow them to recoup some of the income lost which they might incur as a result of the setting up of the alternative services.

Mr. Wilson

Is it to be compulsory involvement?

Mr. Nealon

Perhaps the greatest benefit to RTE of the proposed local radio developments will be that which I mentioned at the outset, the benefit of competition. The development of new services will, to an extent, lift from RTE the burden of being the sole broadcasting voice of the nation. RTE will of course have to continue to exercise the qualities of fairness and balance of which I spoke and which has been so manifestly obvious in RTE down the years.

However, it will no longer be the only immediate source of news. I expect that an early development in association with local radio stations will be an independent radio news network or networks. That has nothing to do with the legislation or with the local radio authority but with ordinary commercial development. The public will have a choice of news services available over the air and there will also be greater scope for the interpretation of news developments. For this reason alone the proposed local radio services will represent the most important media development here since the introduction of television. It will far surpass the launching of a new newspaper, national or local.

I am confident that local radio will also be of enormous significance because of the part which it will play in community development. RTE have been criticised in the past for having an excessive orientation towards Dublin. This criticism was probably mainly directed at its television services which, because of their nature and cost and, indeed, because of the urgency and the mechanism involved in news gathering, tend to be centralised. RTE radio services, on the other hand, have had, I believe, a greater national input but being national services they could not regularly express the concerns of local communities. Local radio will have to do that. It will have to be relevant to the people it serves. That relevance will be proved by the size of its listening audience. It is that criterion, rather than adherence to specific quantified legislative requirements, which will mark the value of local radio.

Local radio will have to have inputs of information, education, culture, social concern and, of course, of entertainment. But these will be of no value if the service does not attract listeners. That is the test that any braodcasting service, or indeed any of the mass media, has to pass. I am confident that the conditions being created in the proposed legislation will allow local radio to pass that test.

Cable television services face a rapidly changing environment. At present cable services relay broadcast programmes to a quarter of a million homes here. The number of services available for relaying will increase greatly in coming years with the development of satellite services. Cable companies will have to invest in expansion of their systems to cater for these developments. Some of the new cable companies are incorporating the necessary facilities for such developments. The Minister referred in his statement to the establishment of a committee to examine and make recommendations on a national strategy for the development of cable systems, bearing in mind advances in technology and the additional services that may be available for relay in the future.

The most interesting aspect of future cable developments is the possibility that cable systems will provide a whole new range of interactive services. These services might include home banking, home shopping, security and alarm services etc.

Developments in this are so fast that what appears fantasy today is not only actuality but, in fact, is outdated in a couple of years time. A number of such services are already on trial in other countries. In the short term, the development of a market for these services may present a difficulty but in the longer term there is little doubt that services of this type will form part of the communications revolution into which we are now heading. Satellite developments will increase the number of television services and change their orientation. Some of the likely effects can be assessed by looking at developments elsewhere, particularly in North America where satellites have been in use for a number of years, including Canada.

Low powered satellites can relay programmes to cable services. This programming can be organised into special interest channels — news, sport, films, music, etc. — and can be funded by advertising or by subscriptions. A number of services of this type are likely to be provided on satellites over Europe in the years ahead, prompted by cable developments in Britain and elsewhere.

A second area of major interest is direct broadcast satellites, DBS as it is called. The signals from these high powered satellites will be receivable by individuals having suitable receiving equipment in the form of antennae dishes and signal converters. A number of countries have plans to introduce DBS services in the next three or four years.

The Government in November last invited proposals for the provision of an Irish satellite system to provide an Irish DBS service. The satellite could also have capacity for telecommunications services, including television programmes for relay to cable systems. The DBS service will operate in accordance with an international plan agreed in Geneva in 1977. Under this plan the Irish DBS service will be receivable in Britain and possibly in north western parts of continental Europe.

There has been considerable interest internationally in the invitation to submit proposals for an Irish satellite service. Final proposals are to be received by 31 July next following which a decision will be made on whatever approach is most beneficial to Ireland. Among the factors to be assessed will be the financial return offered for the use of the satellite frequencies in question, the ancillary benefits from provision of the satellite and programme services and other spin-off effects, and the competence and resources available to the proposers.

Developments both in satellite and in cable services are likely to create new opportunities for technologically based industries in this country. This very important aspect was stressed by the committee to which the Minister paid tribute in his speech. It is the Government's intention to facilitate and promote these developments so that the maximum national benefit can be derived from them.

There have been a number of significant changes in broadcasting policy and in radio frequency management in the past year. Legislation to deal more effectively with broadcasting and wireless telegraphy offences has also been prepared and will be introduced about the same time as the local radio legislation. I am very thankful for the reiterated offer of Deputy Leyden to facilitate quick passage of the Local Radio Authority Bill, and presumably this Bill through the Dáil when introduced before the recess. The Department have been deeply involved in planning for future VHF radio frequencies for both national and local radio purposes. This has involved drawing up frequency plans to meet national needs up to the turn of the century and beyond. Extensive international discussions have taken place and my Department will be represented at a major international conference to be held later this year in Geneva to finalise the international plan for the use of VHF frequencies for sound broadcasting.

The Department were also represented during the past year at two world administrative radio conferences for the planning of maritime radio services and short wave broadcasting services. The development of plans to protect national interests in both of these very important areas has been but one of the many tasks undertaken in the past year. Further sessions of these conferences will be held in the next few years and various preparations for them are continuing. There are at present no plans for the use of short wave frequencies for international broadcasting from this country. The service to which Deputy Leyden referred is long wave and would not reach much of the continent, if any.

Mr. Leyden

Great Britain?

Mr. Nealon

The question has been considered on a number of occasions over the years and was looked at by the Broadcasting Review Committee in 1974. The international audience for short wave services is fairly small and a service could be costly, despite many representations one gets from Irish missionaries abroad, Third World countries and all over the world in an effort to keep in touch with local developments here. Nevertheless, it would be important for us to provide for the possibility that Ireland might wish to operate such a service in the future and the Department are planning for this.

The Minister mentioned in his statement that he would be licensing RTE to proceed with transmitters for a third VHS network, that RTE would like to extend the broadcasting hours of Raidio na Gaeltachta and that a proposal for a long wave station aimed at a wider market is being examined. I understand too that RTE have a number of other ambitions for their radio and television services. May I pay tribute to the work of our own officials who took part in the negotiations on the VHF network. The end result as outlined by the Minister earlier as regards the extra services that can be provided and the facilities for local radio networks has been extremely beneficial and was mainly the result of the excellent negotiating work done by our officials and the British officials.

The RTE Authority would like to develop their home produced programming on televison in the belief that what RTE make for their own public is the most successful element in their output. RTE believe that it is in this way they can best match competition from the BBC and IBA which are so widely available here. The authority's ambitions are, in any event, consistent with the legislative requirement that their programme services should, as far as possible, have a distinctively Irish quality, reflect Irish values and recognise the organisation's responsibility for cultural and educational matters as well as the provision of news and entertainment.

RTE also believe that they should develop their programming from outside Dublin and they aim to do so through the new light-weight and flexible electronic film production facilities which are now available. I believe there would be great expansion in this area so far as local studios are concerned as well as other services. I am also glad to learn from RTE that they hope to develop a more widespread commissioning role for the production of programmes by independent groups in Ireland who have built up considerable expertise with film and electronic production facilities. Developments on these lines are likely to be of considerable social and economic benefit through the development of talent and personal endeavour in these fields outside the authority. This is something which has been gradually taking shape down the years in RTE. Even though they had a monopoly, they never insisted on using that, and this development is greatly to be encouraged. This is welcomed by personnel who gained expertise abroad or in RTE but who wish to embark on these personal endeavours.

So what is to be the place of RTE in view of all the broadcasting developments which I have outlined? RTE will continue to provide the national broadcasting services. They will have a minority role in local radio in line with the legislative proposals which have been published and which I have already mentioned. Further RTE involvement in other broadcasting fields will have to be considered in the light of three main considerations.

The first factor will have to be the impact of any proposed development on the existing national broadcasting services. The standards of public service broadcasting can only be maintained if sufficient resources are available; those resources must be carefully managed and efficiently used so that the public get good value for money.

The second element in the consideration of any proposal by RTE for broadcasting developments is related to the first — any developments will have to pay for themselves. The television licence fee is now a significant charge for the public and any suggested increase will clearly not be welcomed.

The third aspect which would need to be looked at is the effect of any proposed development on the element of competition and choice available on broadcasting services. Competition is, of course, no more an undiluted virtue than is monopoly. It has frequently been claimed that competition debases standards in broadcasting by causing competitors to seek the maximum audience, the lowest common denominator. The contrary argument is that competition is necessary so that broadcasting services do not become stultified. There is of course merit in both arguments. RTE have over the years been in an unusual position in that they depend both on receipts from licence fees, frequently seen as the basis of public service broadcasting, and on advertising revenue, which is seen as the identifying mark of commercial broadcasting. Although RTE have had a monopoly within the State they have faced strong and growing competition from external broadcasting services. Despite all these factors they have served the nation well over the years and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so in the future.

I would like to refer now to the financial provisions in the Estimate in relation to RTE and to RTE's financial position generally. Following on the vesting of An Post and Bord Telecom Éireann new arrangements had to be made for television licence work. The responsibility for collecting TV licence fees has been allocated for the present to An Post. Under the new arrangements, moneys collected by An Post are passed on to my Department and the company receives payment for the collection work involved. Subhead F.I. provides for a payment to RTE of £31.6 million in respect of net receipts from television licence fees and a provision of £2,822,000 is made in Subhead G.1. for payment to An Post in respect of the costs of their collection work.

The efforts made last year by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to detect unlicensed and incorrectly licensed television sets included the organisation of two very successful campaigns, in the spring and autumn. In all 45,000 unlicensed or incorrectly licensed sets were uncovered and many new licences were sold. Special campaigns are being undertaken again this year by An Post to boost licence sales and everyone who is found with a television set which is not correctly licensed will be prosecuted.

The number of licences sold is growing every year. This is largely the result of the detection campaigns undertaken. While this is satisfactory in itself there can be no real doubt that big numbers of TV owners are still not paying their licence fees. Any level of evasion is not acceptable. Continuing the detection campaigns and improving the information sources in relation to houses where licences are not held are the principal ways in which it is expected the level of evasion will be reduced in normal course. But action is required also on the legal front. The present penalties for licence evasion are out-dated and need to be increased substantially if they are to be the deterrent they were intended to be. I hope to introduce legislation later this year which will, among other purposes, deal with this issue.

Under subhead F.2. of the Vote provision is made for a grant-in-aid payment to RTE of £1.2 million in 1984 equivalent to net receipts from cable television licence fees. These licence fees, now at the rate of 15 per cent, which were introduced under regulations in 1974, are intended to recoup for RTE some of the advertising revenue not available to them because of the wide availability of cable services.

RTE incurred a deficit of £600,000 in their financial year ending 30 September 1982. Last year, the Government approved increases of £7 in both the colour and monochrome television licence fee, and an increase of 12½ per cent in radio and television advertising. The revenue from these increases, together with economies in spending made by RTE, were designed to restore RTE to a proper financial footing.

The increase in the licence fee was tied to an expenditure limit for the organisation of £66 million for RTE's current financial year ending on 30 September, 1984. RTE have in recent years made a number of economies in their operations and have now 100 fewer staff. These savings were a necessary adjustment following a period of very rapid expansion which saw the establishment of second national television and radio services. The licence fee increase which the Government approved was not intended to provide for any increase in RTE's activities but merely to allow them to continue to provide programming of interest and quality to the public as they have been doing.

I expect that the steps taken by RTE to effect economies will be continued and that there will be no let-up in the vigorous application of financial disciplines. While the accounts for the year ended 30 September 1983 have not yet been published, the indications are that the revenue increases and spending cutbacks are having the desired effect and that the accounts are likely to show a small surplus.

Another of my responsibilities in the Department of Communications relates to harbours. The Government have made provision in this year's Estimates for expenditure on essential harbour works of £11.738 million which compares with an out-turn of approximately £4.516 million in 1983.

Mr. Wilson

How much was in the Book of Estimates for 1983?

Mr. Nealon

The total amount of Exchequer assistance for harbours included in this allocation is £6.17 million comprising £3.7 million grant and £2.47 million Local Loans Fund moneys. The grant allocation of £3.7 million includes the recent budget allocations of £2 million in respect of the construction of a deepwater wharf at Ringaskiddy and £100,000 in respect of improvements to facilitate the operation of lifeboats at Rosslare and Ballycotton harbours. I hope that the construction of the deep-water wharf at Ringaskiddy will assist in attracting major port-based industry to Cork harbour and that it will help to maintain existing trade and attract new trade to the port and also generate employment in the Cork area. It is estimated that 100 men will be employed during 1984 and 1985 and that the project will be completed in 1986.

Grant assistance of £300,000 is being made available to CIE this year towards the cost of completing passenger handling facilities at Rosslare harbour. This grant aid will enable CIE to complete some of the outstanding works included in the Rosslare harbour development scheme which commenced in 1978 and which to date has cost over £7 million, including a State grant of £1.125 million.

Local Loans Fund money in the sum of £1.2 million has been allocated towards the cost of extending the east jetty at Foynes harbour. This project is due for completion in July 1984. The balance, £1.27 million, is in respect of other works at Cork and Drogheda harbours and, I am glad to say, at Sligo harbour. It includes a provision of £625,000 towards improvement works there and the dredging of channels and berths. The necessary consultations about this project are proceeding between the Department, the harbour commissioners and the Office of Public Works and I hope it will be possible to resolve some outstanding matters at an early date.

Of the £5.568 million to be provided by the harbour authorities, either through commercial borrowing or of their own resources, £3 million is for on-going work in Dublin port including the completion of a deep water quay and ro-ro ramp to accommodate the largest roll-on roll-off vessels likely to come into use in the cross-channel trade.

I should mention that a general review of ports policy is being undertaken by the Department with particular reference to the often competing demands from ports and the problem of duplication of facilities. One of the factors which prompted this review was the ongoing demands from harbour authorities for State assistance for new works. This review will necessarily take some time to complete but it will be concluded as speedily as possible. This is a matter in which I have great interest because major advances can be made.

In this context the proposal for a single estuarial authority for the Shannon Estuary has also been reactivated recently. Discussions have been held with the various harbour authorities and other local interest in the estuary, including Oireachtas representatives in the area. I believe that the potential of the estuary would be best developed through a co-ordinated approach and that there is a strong case for the establishment of a single estuarial authority. Further discussions are being arranged with other interested parties and I hope to make progress in this matter in the near future.

Travel trade licensing is another matter of some importance for which the Department of Communications have responsibility. Last November a statutory licensing and bonding scheme for the travel trade, which is provided for under the Transport (Tour Operators and Travel Agents) Act, 1982, was introduced. Set against the background of a number of business failures in the trade in recent years, the scheme is designed to achieve the two-fold objective of protecting the travelling public and regulating the travel trade.

Under the scheme all applicants for licences are required to enter into a bonding arrangement for the protection of their clients in the event of inability or failure to meet overseas travel contractual obligations. In addition, applicants have to satisfy me that they have the necessary financial business and organisational resources and that in the light of their past activities they are fit and proper persons to carry on a tour operator or travel agency business. As a supplement to the bonding arrangements, all licensed tour operators are required to make a contribution to the statutory Travellers' Protection Fund of £4 in respect of each person making an overseas travel booking. The Minister has issued a total of 310 licences to date — 48 for tour operators and the remaining 262 for travel agents. Licence holders are required to display their licences in their places of business. Persons booking foreign holidays can now make their holiday arrangements through licensed tour operators and travel agents in the knowledge and confidence that they can enjoy the protection of the statutory scheme.

When speaking in the House on this occasion last year, the Minister mentioned the intention to establish a small advisory committee to assist the Department in the administration of the new scheme. The committee have since been set up and comprise representatives of the Department, the travel trade, banks, the insurance industry and the Office of Consumer Affairs. Its terms of reference are to monitor the operation of the licensing scheme with a view to formulating proposals for changes and improvements where they are found to be necessary.

I have touched on the main areas of the Estimate for the Department of Communications falling within my responsibility and I will naturally be interested in the comments of Deputies on these and will consider very carefully the points they have to make.

Mr. Barrett

(Dublin North-West): I wish to use the short time available to me to express my concern at the attitude of RTE in jamming Sunshine Radio. This is depriving many people of innocent pleasure. Sunshine, Radio Nova and Treble TR have filled a gap left by RTE. RTE have failed to cater for the needs of pop and rock fans and that is why Sunshine Radio and Radio Nova have such a wide audience. On the other hand Treble TR have not filled any gaps in relation to the projection of traditional Irish music and ballads. So far as RTE are concerned there was no gap. They have never shown any real interest in Irish music or Irish ballads.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, but you will have to conclude.

Mr. Barrett

(Dublin North-West): I would like the Minister to intervene with the RTE authority and to see that this behaviour by RTE is ended. I am informed that RTE are spending thousands of pounds buying equipment to blot out the Sunshine Radio station. The Government talk about creating jobs. There are 43 people employed in Sunshine Radio. If RTE are allowed to behave in the fashion in which they have been behaving over the past few weeks those 43 people will have to join the 200,000 unemployed. Because of the activities of RTE a number of people have been laid off by Sunshine Radio. I appeal to the Minister to see that this behaviour on the part of RTE is ended at once.

I never interfered with a medical certificate.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Deputy Wilson referred to the Report of the Satellite Committee and asked if copies of the report would be made available to the House. The committee considered that some of the material in the report is confidential, that more of it is of a sensitive kind, publication of which would be counter-productive and that some is subject to copyright restrictions. The committee therefore urged that the report should not be published and recommended that circulation should be restricted to the maximum extent possible. In the light of the committee's very strong views on this matter it was decided that the report should not be published.

Deputy Wilson also referred to the direct broadcasting service and the impression that the broadcasting organisations in the United Kingdom had pulled back from the establishment of such a service in that country. The United Kingdom home secretary stated recently that the advent of the direct broadcasting service in the United Kingdom has been the subject of some uncertainty, primarily on account of the very large investment involved. However, he also stated that if a satisfactory agreement on sharing a satellite between the BBC, IBA and the Independent Television Companies Association, acceptable to all concerned, was reached, the British Government would bring forward the necessary legislation urgently. Clearly the position in relation to direct broadcasting service in the United Kingdom is of concern to us in considering our project and I can assure the Deputy that we are keeping in very close touch with developments.

Deputy Leyden, amongst others, referred to interference claimed to be caused by Radio Telefís Éireann to certain pirate radio stations and said that, while he could appreciate RTE's frustration at the delay in introducing legislation to set up a local radio authority and to provide more effective powers to suppress illegal radio activities, he appealed to RTE to act in a responsible manner. He expressed concern for the jobs of people engaged in pirate radio. While, as I said this morning, I am not particularly sympathetic to these stations' claims — and the fact remains that they are illegal — I want to make it quite clear that I have not approved and do not intend to approve of the jamming of radio signals.

The VHF frequencies mentioned by the Deputy are not licensed for use by any organisation in this country. Indeed they cannot be licensed for broadcasting until after an international conference which will take place later this year draws up a new VHF frequency plan for broadcasting frequencies above 100 megahertz and non-broadcasting services authorised to use this part of the bank in other countries vacate the frequencies in question. I should say that I am most anxious to expedite the legislation to introduce legal, local radio. Deputy Leyden went on at great length about the delay in introducing this legislation. In fact he quoted from the Official Report of last June in which I said we hoped to introduce this legislation as quickly as possible. For the greater part of his speech he completely ignored the fact that these proposals were put to the Joint Committee on Legislation last summer only and that any delay that has occurred is purely because that committee, who had just been set up, were finding their feet and took somewhat longer than we had expected to deal with it. Their report has now been received, which will in turn enable us to proceed apace with preparation of the legislation. As the Taoiseach said in the House earlier in the week, I am very confident that the necessary legislation to introduce legal, local radio, in order to make matters very difficult for illegal operators will be introduced and enacted before the summer recess. I am very grateful to Deputy Leyden for his promise that this will receive the co-operation of the Opposition. Therefore, there is no question of the Government dragging their feet in relation to this matter although I must admit that it has taken rather longer than had been expected. But that is understandable given that the new Joint Committee on Legislation had just been established. I might avail of this opportunity to reiterate what the Minister of State said in relation to that committee, that we very much appreciate their efforts.

I should respond to one other point made by Deputy Wilson, and indeed made to that committee, in that there was some apparent contradiction between what the Minister of State said previously about the number of local radio stations and what I had said. The Minister of State indicated to the committee — I think in reply to a question — that technical advice available to us indicated that possibly as many as 30 local radio stations could be facilitated on the present frequency spectrum. What I said in an interview, and in respect of which I was criticised, was that that technical advice did not necessarily mean there would be 30 stations; I do not know how many stations will emerge. For instance, were we to use some of the criteria used by the IBA in Britain we would have a rather small number of stations, perhaps four, five, six or seven. As I said in my opening remarks, it may well be that conditions and population spread here will demand something different. It might well be that we would have to sacrifice some of the qualitative aspects of the IBA criteria in order to achieve the minimum quantity necessary to serve the obvious demand for local radio here.

Deputy Wilson was interested in the progress of the post bus service. Experience with the service introduced between Ennis and Kilrush has been very encouraging. Not alone has the service covered its costs while providing a very useful amenity but it has also made a contribution to reducing overheads. Shortage of resources prevented further development of such services on the ground as it were, but a number of routes where introduction of the service might be equally successful have been surveyed. I am advised that An Post have plans for introducing additional post bus services, probably adopting some of those routes.

Deputy Leyden asked for some information on the Faxpost service. As Deputies may know, this is a public facsimile service linking Dublin and Cork and about 100 locations in Britain by means of which documents, diagrams and the like may be handed in for transmission and collected or delivered from designated post offices. So far the use made of the service has been limited but I understand that An Post propose to carry out some selective marketing in order to make a further assessment of its potential.

Time will not allow me to reply in any detail to the many questions raised by Deputies in the course of the debate. I promise to communicate with Deputies on the points they raised because I shall not have had sufficient time to answer them today. However I do feel I should reply to two points, one made early in his speech by Deputy Wilson, that is in relation to the Dublin Transport Authority. It is true that, when Deputy Wilson was Minister for Transport, he had proposals at a very advanced stage in relation to that proposed authority. I am very much committed to the principle of a Dublin Transport Authority but I have to say that I am not convinced that the proposals, as drawn up by Deputy Wilson, consititue the best way of doing so. He did mention the difficulties with the Department of the Environment, and there is a difficulty. One of the problems in this country is that the roads function is assigned to the Department of the Environment and not to the Department of Transport, and there are arguments for and and against that. There have been several proposals that the roads function should be transferred to the Department of Transport. If that were to take place the national transport situation and, indeed, the Dublin transport situation would be greatly helped. There are very strong arguments in favour but, of course, there are also those against because it is the local authorities who relate to the Department of the Environment who are responsible for road design and development. One reason the proposals as drawn up by Deputy Wilson need reviewing is the fact that there is already in progress a review of local government by the Minister for the Environment. I do not know what will emerge from that review. For instance, if a greater Dublin council emerges I would foresee them having a very special and close relationship with a Dublin Transport Authority, that the areas they would cover would be contiguous in that they would both have a major function in relation to roads. There are other aspects of those proposals I am currently examining with a view to reaching some final conclusion. In the course of the year I hope we can come up with final proposals, taking advantage of the £100,000 provided in the Estimates.

It would be remiss of me to conclude without referring to the fact that the entire world is now in the midst of a communications revolution. Because of the cross-fertilisation of data-processing technology and telecommunications technology the world has been reduced to an information or communications village. This has enormous implications for society. In my view it will have at least the same impact — which is also the view of many experts in this field — if not a greater import than the industrial revolution of the last two centuries at that time. This is something we must be ready to exploit. We have many advantages. We have the advantage of a young, educated population. We have the advantage of geographic location because we are at the crossroads between the old world and the new. We also have the advantage of a lately developed communications system which is highly digitalised. We should do everything to exploit these advantages and ensure that this country is one of the great beneficiaries of this revolution.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 29 Mar 1984

Estimates 1984. - Vote 41: Communications (Resumed).

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Mar 1984