asked the Minister for Energy if it is proposed to extend the gas pipeline to County Kildare.
12.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National Gas Grid Extensions.
11.
asked the Minister for Energy if it is proposed to extend the natural gas pipeline to Mallow, County Cork.
13.
asked the Minister for Energy, when Kinsale Gas will be provided to Cahir, County Tipperary; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
14.
asked the Minister for Energy the reason for the delay in having the natural gas pipeline extended to Limerick, Waterford, Clonmel, Kilkenny, Carlow and other centres.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 to 14, inclusive, together. The time scale for extension of the natural gas grid is largely determined by the length of time required by the individual centres to prepare and submit development proposals to my Department.
In regard to Clonmel, examination of reports and studies carried out to evaluate the viability of natural gas distribution in Clonmel is now being completed and I expect to be in a position to place proposals before the Government in the near future.
As regards Limerick, Kilkenny and Waterford, I am awaiting the submission of viable proposals and it is my intention that decisions will be quickly reached in these cases once that has been achieved.
The extension of supply to other population centres, such as Kildare, Mallow, Cahir and Carlow which do not have an existing supply of town gas will be considered at a later stage but it would not be realistic to assume a likelihood of supply for some considerable time. I must emphasise that commercially sound markets as well as proximity to the main trunk pipelines will be major factors in determining whether or not it would be economic to supply natural gas to a particular area.
Is the Minister aware that a particular portion of Kildare was designated as a major growth centre and can he explain why this has not received the priority that apparently other areas have received? Is he further aware that Kildare has been classified by the IDA and other interested people as a crisis black spot in the unemployment situation and does he not feel that the provision of a cheaper energy which would encourage industrialists to base themselves in Kildare would be desirable? In view of the small amount of capital expenditure that would be required, seeing that the main gas line expenditure was borne by our side and that all he needs to take on would be spurs to serve these areas, does he not feel that this capital expenditure would be well worthwhile?
I accept what the Deputy says in relation to employment difficulties in Kildare and the delineation of Kildare, from an industrial point of view, to get a gas supply but I would point out that there have been very few inquiries and contact with either BGE or my Department and relatively little interest expressed to date from the Kildare area in relation to receiving a supply of natural gas. We are all well aware of policy by successive Governments in relation to the extension of the natural gas grid and I would point out to the House that it would be my intention to press on with this.
May I ask about a supply for Clonmel? The former Minister for Energy, Deputy Bruton, received a deputation from Clonmel Corporation over 12 months ago and they presented their plans. Could the Minister also tell me what hope he could hold out for Cahir town? Cahir has a large number of unemployed and the pipeline is passing almost alongside the town. I would appreciate anything he could do there. It might attract industry to Cahir.
The situation in regard to Clonmel is that my Department are at present examining the viability of the natural gas distribution in Clonmel. We are talking about a very short time in relation to having that matter proceeded with at Government. The situation in relation to Cahir is certainly not to be regarded in the same light because that town does not have an existing supply of town gas and obviously it would be at a much later stage and some considerable time will elapse before it would be realistic to assume that there would be gas for Cahir.
Is the Minister aware that towards the latter part of 1982 Deputy Reynolds, who was then Minister for Industry and Energy, gave the go-ahead for the extension of the gas pipeline to Limerick and that very little seems to have been done by BGE or by the Department of Energy since that time? As far as I know, the route is not even finalised.
Is the Minister aware that the necessary plans were submitted by the Limerick Gas Company to the Department some time ago and in view of the perilous state of the Limerick Gas Company and the size of Limerick, the largest remaining city that is not yet connected to the grid, will he take immediate steps to ensure that work starts during the current year?
I can assure the Deputy that I am fully aware of the importance and also the suitability of a population centre the size of Limerick for a supply of natural gas. My Department are examining proposals from Limerick Corporation and I can assure him that I certainly will not stand in the way and will press ahead to make sure that the pipeline development goes ahead as quickly as possible, given the importance of Limerick and of a natural gas supply to Limerick city.
How does the Minister reconcile that statement with a speech he made in Caherconlish, County Limerick, a few weeks ago?
It is the next question.
Can the Minister tell me the reasons why he did not proceed on the basis of a decision taken in October 1982 to give the go-ahead to Limerick and to Waterford? If action had been taken at that stage natural gas would have been in Limerick and Waterford long ago.
I did not take any steps to slow up the progress of the development of the natural gas pipeline. BGE are pressing ahead with their plans in relation to the overall development of the gas grid which I think is a very important development for this country.
Does the Minister accept that a decision was taken in October 1982 to extend the gas pipeline to Limerick and Waterford and if he does accept that what is he talking about evaluations for now?
Deputy Reynolds gave the OK to Clonmel as well.
Deputy Reynolds did a lot of things.
Is the Minister saying I did or did not? Give a straight answer.
I am not raising any conflict about the actual go-ahead for the pipelines. The situation in relation to Limerick is that there is little point in bringing gas to Limerick city if we have not got a plan to distribute the gas. The Deputy will recognise the wisdom of that. The present situation is we are evaluating the plans in relation to distribution of the gas.
The Minister's statement last week turned the whole thing on its head.
There is no point in submitting plans now if it is to be run by BGE anyway, if they are going to run all the gas distribution in the country.
15.
asked the Minister for Energy if natural gas will be made available for industrial development in Ardee, County Louth.
It is my intention that the design of the north-eastern pipeline will include provision for offtakes at a number of points. However, the prospects and time-frame for extension of gas supply to viable demand centres and industries close to the pipeline will depend on the economic and technical feasibility of such projects.
Is the Minister aware of the very serious unemployment problem that exists in the west Louth town of Ardee and the advantage that natural gas would be to the town for industrial promotion generally? Will he ensure that in the plans for the distribution of the natural gas, it will be made available to the town?
I am aware of the difficult unemployment situation in the Deputy's constituency. In the spirit of my reply to the Deputy that would be one of the overriding factors in relation to the development and expansion of the availability of natural gas. Obviously the fact that there will be provision for off-takes at a number of points to which the Deputy refers will be of significant interest in the development of County Louth.
16.
asked the Minister for Energy if he will expand on his recent statement that it is his view that Limerick Gas should remain under public control and that he does not favour private sector control of distribution operations at present conducted by a public utility.
In recent statements I have said that it is my intention that there will be a major public sector involvement in the gas distribution process and that I do not favour private sector control of distribution operations at present conducted by a public utility. I also said that it was my view that the Limerick Gas Company should remain under public control.
I am currently reviewing organisational and financial aspects of gas distribution generally and the role of Bord Gáis Éireann in this context. I will make a further statement when these aspects have been fully considered.
When the Minister talks about the Limerick Gas Company remaining under public control does he mean under the control of Limerick Corporation, under the control of Bord Gáis Éireann, or somebody else?
That is a matter which has to be decided. As I said in my reply, I am reviewing the organisational and financial aspects of the gas distribution generally and the role of Bord Gáis Éireann. My interest is that a valuable natural resource, such as natural gas, should be distributed to the maximum benefit of the people of Ireland. If this is to be done by Limerick Gas Company or by Bord Gáis Éireann, then whichever is in the better interest of the development will be done.
Is the Minister aware that in the proposal put to his Department quite some time ago, which is the subject of this very lengthy evaluation, Limerick Gas Company or Limerick Corporation would hold a major shareholding in that consortium and that another Irish public concern, the Irish Life Assurance Company, would also have a shareholding with the result that under the present proposal there would not be a majority of private interests in the consortium? If so, what is his objection to the proposal put forward on behalf of Limerick Gas Company?
Just to correct a number of matters: firstly, I have never said that I have any objection to the proposals. If there is a major public shareholding, then there will be no difficulties and development will go ahead as quickly as possible.
Does it have to be a majority shareholding?
Yes, my personal preference absolutely would be for a majority shareholding to be held in the public interest.
Does this apply to all the municipal gas companies in the country or only to those at present owned by local authorities?
As I have said already, I am in the process of reviewing the distribution of the natural gas. Each case will be looked at on its merits. I have said publicly, and I have no hesitation about it, that I believe it is in the best interests of the ultimate consumer that the natural gas be distributed with a majority shareholding by a public company.
The question I asked the Minister was: does this ideological sermon that was delivered at Caherconlish, of all places, apply to all gas companies or only to those that are municipally owned at present? Would the Minister answer that question "yes" or "no"? Does it apply to all gas companies, even those that are privately owned like Waterford, Kilkenny and others?
In fairness the question the Deputy has asked me in the House today refers to statements made in relation to Limerick Gas. I am clarifying the situation in saying that there will be no difficulties, that is in relation to the one I am at present considering. The other question the Deputy puts will be looked at in the context of the overall review at present being undertaken.
Would the Minister explain to the House how he reconciles his statement today that a majority shareholding should be held by a public utility with the Government's decision to go along with the deal for Dublin Gas at which he sat around the Cabinet table?
I have no difficulty. The Dublin Gas agreement has been signed and delivered——
Who holds the majority shareholding? It is not public.
As a member of the Government and with collective responsibility, of which the Deputy is well aware, that decision has been taken.
How can the Minister reconcile it?
How can the Minister agree that it is proper that by far the largest gas company in the country, Dublin Gas Company, which distributes far more gas than everyone else combined in the country, should be privately-owned and aided by the Government in a big way in order to reach that objective and these little ones like Clonmel, Kilkenny, Waterford, Limerick and so on should be publicly owned?
That would be more appropriate——
The Minister does not reconcile it. Might we say, for instance, that the answer to Question No. 16 might be described as the Cluskey factor, and nothing else because it makes no sense politically, logically or economically?
If the Deputy will look after the Haughey factor I will look after the Cluskey factor.
It makes sense for the impending week-end.
I am calling Question No. 17.