Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 May 1984

Vol. 350 No. 6

Wool Marketing Bill, 1984: Second Stage.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture (Mr. Connaughton)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The main purpose of the Bill is to give legal effect to a decision taken last year to dissolve An Chomhairle Olla. The Bill also provides for the continued implementation by my Department of the statutory functions of the Wool Marketing Act, 1968, in relation to licensing and registration of premises.

The provisions of that 1968 Act, including the establishment of An Chomhairle, arose directly from the recommendations of the Committee on Wool Improvements. This committee, on which appropriate interests were represented, reported their findings in 1966.

The main functions of An Chomhairle were to advise the Minister for Agriculture in relation to the fixing of grades of wool, apply standards in relation to the registration for the register of wool buyers and, in consultation with the Minister for Agriculture, to fix a code of practice to be observed by wool exporters.

An Comhairle was funded by an annual grant-in-aid, provided by the Oireachtas, which in the last three years averaged £100,000 per annum. Membership comprised a chairman and 11 other members representative of the trade and producers. Four of the staff of An Chomhairle were seconded from, and paid by, my Department. The remaining member, a specialist in wool grading, was employed directly by An Chomhairle on a daily fee paid basis.

Before An Chomhairle were established there was no standard system whereby wool was purchased on a graded basis, nor, indeed, were there any set standards in respect of buyers' or exporters' premises where wool was stored prior to export. There was a need, therefore, to improve the image of Irish wool especially on export markets. The main provisions of the 1968 Act, together with the principal related functions of An Chomhairle, provided for the proper grading and presentation of wool for sale, the registration of wool buyers and the licensing of wool exporters. On the recommendations of An Chomhairle, regulations were made by the Minister for Agriculture setting out minimum standards in respect of these matters. These regulations will continue to be implemented by my Department. The inspection of buyers' and exporters' premises, heretofore carried out by officers of my Department on behalf of An Comhairle to ensure that standards are maintained, will be continued on a regular basis.

As part of the measures taken to reduce Exchequer expenditure, the Government decided, in February 1983, to dissolve An Comhairle. Here I would like to emphasise that this decision should not be interpreted in any way whatsoever as a reflection on An Chomhairle's performance. I pointed this out at the time to the members when I wrote to them apprising them of the dissolution. I am satisfied that, due in large part to the activities of An Chomhairle, the marketing of wool is now in a much healthier state. As a result of these activities, Irish wool enjoys a very high reputation on world markets and commands a higher price per lb. on these markets than comparable types of New Zealand and British wools.

Total wool production in this country amounts to 13 million lbs per annum made up of 5.2 million lbs Galway wool, 3.7 million lbs Blackface Mountain, 2.9 million lbs Cheviot and halfbred and 1.2 million lbs other types. The value of the national clip to producers is estimated to be worth in excess of £11 million a year. This represents a significant contribution to farm incomes. Over 70 per cent of the Irish clip is exported, 65 per cent of which goes to Great Britain. The percentage of wool exported to Great Britain has been declining over the years as new markets were opened up, particularly in Europe and Eastern bloc countries. Exports to France and Belgium have shown significant increases. Czechoslovakia and Poland have been the main outlets in Eastern Europe but exports to that area have declined in recent years.

The EEC is not self-sufficient in the production of sheep meat and, because of the application of the CAP to that commodity, I anticipate a substantial increase in our national flock, with a consequential increase in wool production.

All in all, therefore, I am satisfied that the wool industry has been placed on a sound footing. I am confident that the 79 licensed exporters will continue to seek out new markets, that the 303 registered buyers can effectively handle any increase in production and that the producers will continue to provide the high quality product which the market place demands. A continuation of the successes already achieved will, of course, depend on the willingness of both traders and producers to observe the statutory requirements. I am confident, however, that in co-operation with my Department, traders and producers can maintain progress.

Nevertheless, whilst the budget for An Chomhairle was a relatively modest one, I feel that members of the House will appreciate that, in the current financial situation, any scope for cutting back on Exchequer expenditure cannot be overlooked. In recent years, a high proportion of An Chomhairle's grant was spent in highlighting the need for clean wool presentation by means of fleece displays; in conducting training courses in wool grading and sheep shearing and subsidising sheep shearing demonstrations at shows throughout the country. Expenditure was also incurred on press advertisements and display posters and promoting wool end-products through fashion shows, etc. All of these activities, whilst useful, are minor in the context of the Wool Marketing Act. The main intentions of the Act and the corresponding principal functions of An Chomhairle have long since been implemented, and expenditure on An Chomhairle's recent activities cannot be justified in present circumstances.

I regard the monitoring of world trends as an essential service to the industry. It provides up-to-date information on trends and prices and guarantees a fair return to producers in line with world trends. The market intelligence service will, therefore, be continued on a regular basis by my Department — as, indeed, it has been since An Chomhairle ceased to function.

The four officers seconded from my Department have now returned and three of them have been assigned to other duties. The fourth is assisting in implementing the statutory functions of the Act. No additional expenditure has arisen for my Department. Indeed, staff savings have been achieved through the more effective use of the returned staff. The wool grader employed by An Chomhairle has been paid his statutory redundancy entitlements and I understand that further claims he has made are under negotiations. Also, I am informed that he has secured outside employment in the industry.

Apart from giving legal effects to decisions taken involving the dissolution of An Comhairle, the Bill contains safeguard clauses in regard to creditors and other claimants of An Chomhairle. These are included in Article 3 which provides, in general, that any outstanding debts will be discharged by the Minister for Agriculture, and that every contract entered into in force between An Chomhairle and any person shall continue in the name of the Minister.

Article 4 provides that a final account of all moneys received and expended by An Comhairle from 1 January 1983 to the day on which the last liabilities are discharged shall be prepared for audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General prior to its presentation to both Houses of the Oireachtas.

For many years the wool industry was the poor relation of Irish farming. This was true in the thirties and forties and even into the fifties and sixties. It was only when we got the CAP facility in relation to sheep that Irish sheep farmers managed to earn a respectable living and get a reasonably good gross margin from sheep production. Almost two-fifths of our sheep are raised in my county. Were it not for our entry to the EEC and the facility for sheep meat, our industry would be in a dreadful state. We now expect a 6 or 7 per cent increase in the number of breeding ewes this year. This is particularly welcome because there is a shortage of sheep meat produced within the EEC. It is one of the very few commodities in this category, and this gives us a chance to increase production in an area where there is not already overproduction.

Wool has always been an important consideration for the sheep farmer. It is worth £11 million to the Exchequer, a lot of money by any standards. From 1968 onwards a brave and successful attempt was made to adopt a strategy whereby wool was presented in a light which would allow us to obtain the best possible price. Traditionally our chief market has been in Britain but now that market is declining. Every sheep farmer, buyer or exporter knows that what happens at the sales in Bradford and other such centres has a profound effect on prices. These prices can fluctuate overnight, and for many years this has been a great problem. It has been very difficult to get a wool marketing strategy and a sales pattern that would give any guaranteed price. No country has been able to achieve this. It is the nearest thing to shares on the Stock Exchange that I have ever come across.

It is important that market intelligence about the workings of the main wool centres in Britain be transmitted to Irish farmers and the wool industry generally. I am aware as a farmer and politician that one of the most important aspects of the work of the Wool Board was their ability to transmit information about what was happening at international level. On many occasions I listened to the radio at 6.20 in the evening to hear about the wool price in Bradford. This information is parallel to the market reports by Michael Dillon from marts and factories around the country. That service will continue. The officers dealing with it in my Department will make sure that this intelligence will be available to farmers. When a farmer decided to sell wool to his local buyer, usually a multi-purpose operator, it goes on to the central wool board and then to the world sales, particularly at Bradford and Edinburgh. The method by which this is done means we are up to date with prices obtaining.

When the Wool Marketing Board were first established our wool was extremely badly presented. In many instances sheep were shorn on grass without any shearing boards and there was very little evidence of efficiency. We could not blame farmers because in the past there was not a great differential in price between the clean wool and that which was badly stored and presented for sale, so the farmers obviously wondered why they were going to all that extra trouble.

The Wool Marketing Board which I must compliment on its work, was broadly an educational venture throughout the country. I had the pleasure, on a number of occasions, of organising the All-Ireland Macra na Feirme sheep-shearing finals and in the early seventies from 6,000 to 8,000 people would see fit to congregate at those displays to see how the job was done properly. A great educational job has been done in this respect. There are other very important aspects which have to be noted one being the conditions under which the wool was stored in the buyers' stores prior to export. Until the Wool Marketing Board came into operation, sheep farmers did not bother unduly about the handling of wool and wool is a commodity needing expert handling to arrive at the various grades. At a time when there was so much competition between synthetic fibres and pure wool, it was extremely important that we had trained wool graders available around the country to show the difference between wools of good and inferior quality. It would not be appropriate for me at this stage to go into the various wool grades, but this needs very in-depth research, including as it does research into the different types of wool needed for different types of clothing and other commodities.

I believe that every Irish sheep farmer knows all there is to be known about the production and presentation of good, clean wool to the buyers. However, that does not mean that he will get a good price. Because of the general depressed wool trade all over Europe for many years, many sheep farmers whom I have met have said that, unlike any other commodity, they are just not paid for the type of wool that they are producing. The sheep meat trade is allied to the Common Agricultural Policy, but wool production has no guaranteed price whatever and we are in competition with sheep farmers everywhere.

The fundamental principles towards which the Wool Marketing Board had been set up have been achieved. I am delighted to be able to say here that for the last two or three years the sheep industry has been given a boost which it never got before. At the moment, Irish lamb in our marts and our factories is doing extremely well. Last year was one of the best sheep years, helped by the EEC ewe premium to Irish owners of good breeding stock under certain conditions. For this season already, £5 per head has been paid on every ewe and for the second half of this year it is likely that £7 or £8 will be paid. Also, there are all the headage grants and grants to disadvantaged areas and the £9.50 ewe-hogget scheme. Everyone in the agriculture industry will appreciate that, at the end of the day, it is the price which the product makes in the market or in the factory on the day of the sale which counts.

There are all the appearances that this year is going to be a good sheep year. I hope that it is not by chance that on this very day our wool price, depending on the type of wool involved, is approximately between 7p and 10p a lb. dearer than on this day last year. How long that will last is another story. We shall be maintaining a very close scrutiny of all wool buyers' export premises. The agricultural officers in my Department will ensure that these premises are up to national and international standards. Market intelligence regarding the pricing mechanism on the major world wool centres will be transmitted through the national media as heretofore. This and the general increase in profitability of the entire national sheep flock, have brought about an increase in sheep numbers when for many years they were decreasing. It is now paying our farmers to get into the sheep producing business, and the only time one will ever have that in any production line is when people genuinely believe that they will make money out of it. That is what any normal business man would do. For the last three or four years, sheep rearing is a real alternative under many conditions. I sincerely hope that the wool price will be maintained, but it is a little like the stock exchange.

It could be argued that not much money was involved here but, at a time of great economic stress, when every penny must be put to the most productive use, we must be geared towards production. Up to now, because of the problems in the wool business, it has been very important to put our resources into ensuring that we have products which will obtain the best possible price against all comers, not alone in Europe but all over the world. I believe that we have arrived at that point. What we must do now is ensure through the negotiations in Brussels, that we maintain a very high profile for our sheep farmers. The future looks good for the sheep industry. I have a very deep, personal interest in sheep farming, because of my background. The Wool Marketing Board has ceased to operate but because of the good work done by that board I sincerely hope that it will not now be missed. I pay tribute to the various chairmen and members of the board who have served the sheep industry loyally down through the years. I reiterate that it was no reflection whatsoever on their expertise that the board was disbanded. If we maintain the present trend, our sheep farmers will achieve the success which should have been theirs for many years.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): Listening to the Minister introducing the Second Stage of this Bill, I felt a certain sympathy with him. I believe, knowing the Minister, his background and his commitment to the development of agriculture, that it is against his better judgment that this Bill is being introduced. I know irrespective of what he has said about the wool industry and whatever gloss is put on it, that in his heart and soul he feels, like this side of the House, that this is a step in the wrong direction. It is a step as far as the wool industry and the sheep industry are concerned, that they will suffer from. I cannot agree with the Minister that removing the Wool Marketing Act, 1968, from the Statute Book is something which will benefit the sheep and wool industries. He said that now there is only one officer doing the work of the Wool Council when formerly there were three to four people doing this work. Surely he is not telling me that one man — I know how good he is — can do the work of the council which is being abolished?

The Minister is quite right in saying that the sheep industry was considered the poor relation. A committee set up in 1963 emphasised that very clearly. It was as a result of the findings of that committee that the Wool Council was set up. The Minister stated that the industry is now worth £11 million to the Exchequer. Surely now, when there is an upward trend in sheep numbers and consequently an upward trend in the amount of wool produced, it is a backward step to abolish the Wool Council? It is important, like in any other farming industry, that there should be a proper organisation to deal with the promotion of sheep and wool as a very important aspect of farming. The Minister said it was his pleasure — it was my pleasure also — to be present at some of the functions for the promotion of wool in the earlier years. Surely it is not any pleasure for him to preside here this morning over the abolition of the Wool Council?

I do not agree with the Minister when he says that the abolition of this council is accepted by the producers and the traders. That is not a correct statement. I have contacted many people over the last few days and not one producer or trader told me that this is a step in the right direction. They have said it is a backward step and is something that the Government and the industry will regret in the years ahead. I know the Minister agrees with me, The Minister is now being asked to do something which is against his better judgment.

When the Minister departed from the prepared script and gave his own thoughts on the wool industry it became very clear to this side of the House that he has a deep conviction about what the sheep industry and wool industry can provide for the agricultural economy in the years ahead. He emphasised very clearly that there is now an upsurge in sheep production. That should be encouraged rather than discouraged, as this Bill is doing.

I want to refer to a few brief points the Minister made. He said:

The inspection of buyers' and exporters' premises, heretofore carried out by officers of my Department on behalf of An Chomhairle to ensure that standards are maintained, will be continued on a regular basis.

I would like him to emphasise more clearly what he means by "on a more regular basis". Will it be on the same basis as that carried out by An Chomhairle? This brings me back to the point I made earlier that there is only one man doing the work of An Chomhairle. I am glad the Minister is giving a commitment to the House that the intelligence with regard to prices will be maintained. This was another important function of An Chomhairle.

The Minister said he would like to emphasise that this decision should not be interpreted in any way whatsoever as a reflection on An Chomhairle's performance. I doubt if the trade and the producers would accept that. Of course it is a reflection on the performance of An Chomhairle Olla. It is one of the costsaving exercises by this Government we have had to listen to daily. In this case only £100,000 is involved. It is a further example of the neglect by the Department and the Government generally of agriculture and rural Ireland.

In the statement the Minister said:

This represents a significant contribution to farm incomes. Over 70 per cent of the Irish clip is exported, 65 per cent of which goes to Great Britain.

This is a further reason why the Wool Council should be maintained, encouraged and developed. This would allow the sheep and wool industry to make a further contribution to farm income and ultimately to the whole economy. The Minister also stated:

A continuation of the successes already achieved will, of course, depend on the willingness of both traders and producers to observe the statutory requirements. I am confident, however, that in co-operation with my Department traders and producers can maintain progress.

I hope they will maintain progress; but the Minister is missing the point, which is that neither the producers nor the traders will have any say as to how their industry will evolve in the future. Up to now they were represented on the Wool Council but now they will have no voice in the development of the industry. The Minister has referred to the involvement of the trade and the producers in the industry. What the Government are proposing is a backward step and I hope they will have second thoughts with regard to abolishing the council.

In his speech the Minister stated that expenditure was incurred on press advertisements and display posters. He stated:

All these activities, whilst useful, are minor in the context of the Wool Marketing Act. The main intentions of the Act and the corresponding principal functions of An Chomhairle have long since been implemented, and expenditure of An Chomhairle's recent activities cannot be justified in present circumstances.

Of course the functions have been implemented but it is important that the development of the wool and sheep industry be undertaken as a continuing process. The Wool Council may have achieved what they set out to achieve but it is important that the process be continued. There is now no guarantee that this development will continue because neither the trade not the producers will have a say in their own industry. The Minister has said that the market intelligence service will be continued on a regular basis. I hope that the Minister and the Department will live up to that commitment.

In his speech the Minister referred to the four officers seconded from his Department who have now returned and three of whom have been assigned to other duties. Even though the remaining officer is excellent he is the only person ensuring that the functions are being carried out. The Minister has stated that no additional expenditure has arisen for the Department. It is a backward step to replace the council by one officer because, irrespective of how good he may be, he cannot be expected to carry out the functions of the Wool Council. The Department of Finance decided to achieve a saving of a miserly £100,000 but that must be set against the major losses that will accrue in the wool and sheep industry as a result of the short-sighted attitude of this Government. They have neglected this major industry which is contributing so much to the economy and to the incomes of farmers at a time when many Irish commodities are overproduced.

We should develop the Wool Council into a marketing board as was suggested in a report published in 1966. The council was set up by this party in 1968 to advise the Minister for Agriculture in relation to the fixing of grades of wool, price increases relating to quality and price deductions in respect of defects. It also had a function with regard to the fixing of standards to be applied in relation to the registration of wool buyers and it fixed a code of practice to be observed by wool exporters. All of these were important matters for the industry. The council also provided courses for the training of people in the grading of wool and it implemented methods to increase wool exports. It had the responsibility of securing maximum use of home-produced wool by manufacturers here. These functions will not be carried out because it will not be possible for the one person who is carrying out the functions of the board to do this work.

In his reply I ask the Minister of State to outline how the functions will be carried out. He has said that many of them have been implemented but the development of the wool and sheep industry is a continuing process. When neither the trade nor the producers will have a say in the matter, how can the industry develop?

As the Minister correctly pointed out, this Bill gives statutory recognition to the abolition of the Wool Council. Because of the amount of money involved — a saving of £100,000 — the Government should feel ashamed. I should like to know what will now be the fate of the functions of the Wool Council, what will become of their promotional aspects, will they be dropped in addition to the marketing of wool abroad? Will all of these be dropped? Who will now undertake that work?

Our party set up the Wool Council in 1968 which, from any reports I have read, was considered then to be a prelude only to the setting up a proper wool marketing board. Rather than removing the present structure this Government should be establishing more permanent, positive structures for the whole of the wool industry. I might say that back in 1968 when the Wool Council was established it did not meet the wishes of the farmers or of the farming organisations because it was considered then to be scraping the surface only of the whole of that industry.

I might remind the Minister that the United Kingdom have a very successful wool board, playing a most important role in the promotion of their wool industry. Since our Wool Council was abolished early in 1983 there has been no inspection of wool in the different areas of the country, with no incentive being given for the improvement of its quality. It was a pity that our wool had to be exported for processing. It is a pity also that there are not some processing plants being established here, a role which would be appropriate to that Wool Council, indeed even to a new wool board.

The Wool Council did provide a useful service making information available to producers such as the minimum prices our wool should yield. The importance of our sheep industry to the country generally cannot be over-emphasised, more particularly because it forms a very large part of our small farmers' incomes, something which the Minister should take seriously into account. Surely those small farmers needed the advice of the Wool Council the Minister has abolished? I must reiterate the importance of the sheep industry to our small farmers and, ultimately, our economy. From the farmers' viewpoint and also that of employment the sheep industry constitutes a worthwhile source of employment in our meat factories and in the manufacture of our wool. It cannot be said too often that, rather than abolishing this Wool Council, we should now be seriously considering its expansion or conversion into a proper wool board but we are moving in the opposite direction.

Let us for a moment consider the serious unemployment situation obtaining, in which the figures are on the upward trend. Indeed the Minister himself said as recently as this week that we should be developing our food processing and meat industries, where employment could be provided on a large scale. Yet the Minister and the Government are prepared to throw this worthwhile industry out the window. It should be remembered also that we have a long tradition in the wool industry. A study should be undertaken of the different blends of wools for manufacturing here. I am now speaking in the context of employment in the wool industry, in areas we should be investigating with regard to the provision of jobs. There is no better place than this industry for the provision of worthwhile, sustainable jobs in our small parishes, villages and towns in rural areas, thereby also developing one of our natural resources, because we can no longer be dependent on major international industries contributing to the provision of employment here. There is no better channel for the development of our natural resources than through the development of our sheep and wool industry, or indeed within the context of the Wool Council which has just been abolished. That council might well be developed into a proper wool marketing development board giving the industry functional structures it so badly needs at present, thereby creating worthwhile, sustainable jobs. Here I am merely re-echoing what the Minister himself said this week. The Minister should put his money where his mouth is, ensuring that jobs are provided in the sheep industry.

Mr. Sheehan

Why did not the Deputy's party do so?

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): I might remind Deputy Sheehan that it was we who established the Wool Council in 1968 and that there were plans then for the improvement of its structure. The Deputy's Government and party are now moving in the opposite direction. Deputy Sheehan knows that what I am saying is correct because he knows better than I can ever tell him——

Mr. Connaughton

At least we can sell the wool now.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West):——what the sheep industry means to this country. The only effective means of achieving the requisite improvements in the wool industry is through the establishment of a proper wool marketing and development board, such as that already obtaining in the United Kingdom. The system prevailing here, since the abolition of our Wool Council, is satisfactory neither to the producer not the trade. It is important to the industry that there be a proper system of marketing which is widely favoured in other countries where the wool clip is of any worthwhile size.

It is important also that the confidence of the producers is restored and this can be best established by arranging adequate producer representations on such a board which would have complete responsibility for the collection of wool from producers and marketing it to users and exporters. There should be a guaranteed price for wool to producers on a graded basis, a major function for the Wool Council.

There should be adequate storage facilities and capable wool graders in all wool producing areas. As the Minister said, many of these have been achieved but it should be a continuing process to ensure that the sheep and wool industry will develop into a major aspect of Irish farming and industry. In order to encourage the proper production of wool — I acknowledge the work of the Wool Council in that area — all wool producers should be registered with the wool board and should sell their entire clips to the board. The appropriate wool dealers and merchants should also be registered and should act as collecting and grading agents for the board. In this way, all wool collected from the producers can be paid on a graded basis and payments for wool would be made directly by the board. I may be placing great stress on the establishment of this board but the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, New Zealand, Australia and many other countries have such a marketing board. Our wool and sheep industry will play a vital role in the future as has been acknowledged by the Minister. The establishing of a board would play a major role in putting wool production in this country on a very sound footing.

The Wool Council which was set up in 1968 also provided a very important role in a publicity programme for producers. They advised on the proper handling and presentation of wool for sale. The programme of publicity also included a number of educational and wool promotion programmes at shows and agricultural schools throughout the country. What will become of these programmes? Their major exhibits were at the Royal Dublin Society's Spring Show.

The Wool Council also participated in the fashion show of all wool garments which proved to be one of the top attractions at the Spring Show. Fleeces entered in the wool competition were on display and there were other exhibits featuring clean wool presentation, fleece branding, woollen products, wool spinning, wool weaving and skin curing. What will happen to all these things when the council is abolished? These exhibits will not be staged in future.

In an effort to improve the standard of sheep shearing, the council regularly looked at the organisation and techniques of shearing in the bigger wool producing countries like New Zealand and Australia to encourage the improvement and production of high quality wool. The council also conducted competitions and some of our competitors who represented us in sheep shearing competitions all over the world did us proud. In the export of wool, for example, to France, the Wool Council developed a very worthwhile market as a result of contacts which the general manager of the Wool Council made. Visiting wool buying delegations from abroad were helped by the council to make contacts with Irish exporters. This will also be dropped.

At home the Wool Council were instrumental in promoting the greater use of Irish wool in home manufacture which is very important in the context of developing our natural resources. Prior to that, marketing arrangements for Irish wool created a number of problems for home manufacturers who might wish to use Irish wool because 80 per cent of the Irish clip is exported. Part of it is re-imported in a processed state or as a blend, making it nearly impossible to identify its country of origin. Where particular types of wool are required, there is no guarantee that sufficient quantities of Irish wool will be available or that there will be continuity of supply. The council could be usefully engaged at present in ensuring that various branches of the woollen industry here are encouraged to accept the quantities and types of wool available and that they will be guaranteed continuity of supply and availability of scoured wool.

The promotion of Irish wool should be directed towards speciality lines with a view to entry into the upper end of the market where there is demand for quality wool products. I am firmly convinced that the production of a quality Irish wool tag should be considered. Adequate scouring facilities are essential to provide scoured wool on demand. These functions should, appropriately, be carried out by the Wool Council which is being abolished or by a wool board. Who will now carry out these functions and listen to the views of the producers and the trade?

I should like to remind the House that the committee on wool improvements set up in January 1963 reported subsequently and the follow-up was the setting up of the Wool Council. This committee was set up to consider and recommend desirable improvements in quality handling and marketing of Irish wool, including grading. The terms of reference for the committee are as important today as they were then. This is a backward step.

While sheep numbers may have fallen since 1965, the 1983 figure was something in the region of 3,600,000. Nevertheless, sheep and wool contribute £78 million or 3.65 per cent of total agricultural output. Fortunately there has been a steady increase in sheep numbers over the last couple of years and the Minister and the Government should give the industry every assistance and the boost it requires. Where you have increasing sheep numbers those numbers will inevitably be accompanied by an increase in wool production and that has also been the case over the last number of years.

Finally, I would like to pay tribute to the Wool Council which the Minister is now abolishing for the work that body has done in the promotion of Irish wool over the years. Our thanks are also due to An Foras Tálúntais who undertook during that period and, indeed, are still undertaking, a very comprehensive research programme into various aspects of wool improvement, such as the genetics of wool improvement, the effect of flock management on wool, grading assessment and the packaging and storage of wool. I also want to pay tribute to the laboratory operated by An Foras Talúntais at Creagh in County Mayo which was primarily concerned with studying the genetics of Irish wool characteristics, all aspects so very necessary for the development of our sheep and wool industry. I want to pay tribute too to the people who brought this industry, which the Minister is now downgrading, to the pitch it has reached today.

I would like to pay tribute to the personnel in the Department of Agriculture who have contributed so much to the upgrading of wool in ensuring that the industry should play a very important part in our agricultural development. I would like to pay tribute to the National Farmers Association, as the body was then known, and also to Macra na Feirme who, in the early 1960s established a committee for the upgrading and improvement of wool, whose work was ultimitely finalised in the establishment of the Wool Council. The pioneers in this Wool Council were imbued with the idea that they would evolve into a proper marketing board for the promotion of the wool industry. The setting up of a wool board is more important today than it ever was in previous years and so I would ask the Minister again to have second thoughts about abolishing this council and second thoughts on introducing this Bill designed to give statutory force to the abolition of the Wool Council. I would ask him to reconsider this in the light of what I have said. In conclusion, this party do not approve of this Bill and will oppose its passage.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture (Mr. Hegarty)

I agree with the last speaker that this Bill provides an opportunity for Deputies to go into other areas, and certainly some good points were made. The Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Deputy Connaughton, made the case this morning that this is a straightforward Bill. As I said, good points have been made by both the Minister of State and by Deputy Noonan on the Opposition benches. The Wool Council have certainly done a good job over the years. We agree the basic reason is low priority because of our stringent budget financial situation. There is then the point that the main functions of the council have, as I said, long since been fully implemented. Its continued existence is not necessary and continued expenditure could therefore hardly be justified.

We can always go back to the time when the council did not exist and there were all sorts of products arriving on the market. Now the council has been in existence for some 15 years, and 15 years is a long time in which to educate people as to how wool should be handled. Anyone who attends the various sheep shearing demonstrations around the country knows very well that people now know how wool should be handled and graded and, indeed, how the sheep should be shorn. That is priority No. 1. There is now tremendous expertise in wool handling. It was my pleasure last year to attend quite a number of competitions and there is no problem any more. Farmers are no fools and they know that anybody producing an inferior product will not be accepted. They know exactly what good husbandry means and they seem to have no problems now with regard to the marketing of their products.

In the early days — I have to say this — producers were not so anxious to send wool on a graded basis and I think the reason was that they felt wool would not be graded in their favour under the then existing price structure. They failed to realise that the fat price was probably the bottom price anyway. As a result of grading and of finding out there is a great deal more money in doing the job properly and falling into line with the proper ideas, the problems that existed have long since disappeared.

You have then the whole exporting scene and I do not think a marketing board is the right approach to this type of operation. Traditionally exporting has been done by people who are familiar with the market place from one generation to another. Anybody attending such markets appreciates there is a sort of international group which deal in wool. It is usually built up through a family from one generation to another. There is an established line of communication which has not broken down and, because those engaged in exporting know their business, know their customers and know their wool we have ended up by catching for our farmers a very good slice of the international market and we are getting good prices. As a result of the Wool Council we succeeded in cutting out a great deal of second handling. The product is now so good that it does not require very much grading. They know exactly what they are getting in, and they are in a position to re-export. That has proved to be advantageous.

The Minister, Deputy Connaughton, and Deputy Noonan mentioned the marketing intelligence service. The council provided a service and contact was maintained with the main wool markets. This was done partly through the good offices of the British Wool Marketing Board. We had guideline prices based on world trends for producers, and the fluctuations week by week were recorded as were the guideline prices for the different types of wool. The producer could find out on a day-to-day basis what his wool was worth.

I must stress that that service is still available and will continue to be made available by our Department. The same contact is maintained with prices on the international front. They are conveyed to the media each week. Newspapers and radio seem to be particularly anxious to publish the data from the Department on a regular basis. We have no difficulty in getting this information across through the media. It is important that that should be said and that fallacy put out of the way once and for all.

In future flock owners will have to continue to do what they have been doing, and they will continue to do it in their own interests, that is, to produce clean, dry wool free from contamination, colouring and brand marks. That is basic commonsense. If we are to continue to hold the share of the market we have enjoyed over the years, that sort of attention to detail is essential. Like any other sphere of farming at the moment, it is a highly sophisticated game. Because of the margins there is no room for second-rate operators whether it is in producing sugar beet or growing wool.

The Minister, Deputy Connaughton, referred this morning to the fact that farmers are swinging over to sheep production because of improved margins. I agree with him. Swinging over to sheep production in itself will not guarantee profits. The production of sheep, mutton and wool will have to be managed in a highly efficient way. Relatively speaking, the margins are not all that exciting in any type of farming enterprise, except for the people who do it well. Farmers are not fools and they very soon see that. Wool has to be produced and treated in a certain way. If particular types of paint or colouring will spoil the fleece they should not be used. It is unfortunate that we experimented with quite a number of colourants which did not prove to be successful. That is one of the big problems the buyers tell me they have with wool. An indelible colour mark renders the wool useless for many products. For Aran sweaters and traditional white garments that wool cannot be used.

With regard to the sheep industry generally, the common organisation of the market for sheep meat has been in operation for three years. It has worked very well for sheep producers. Profitability in sheep trading has been good. Numbers are up in recent years. There is nothing to suggest this trend will not continue. It is inevitable that there will be a consequential increase in wool production and, as a result, new outlets for wool will have to be found. There is a buoyant demand for raw wool in industries such as the clothing and carpet industries. The way synthetics took over from wool bugs me. It is hard to explain how it happened. It is a feature of our times.

Some years ago all clothing was made from wool and in practically every town there was a flourishing woollen mill and carding mill. It was disastrous that synthetics took over. Those flourishing industries have gone by the board. They have gone under to synthetics. Nowadays on television you see the famous wool mark advertised. One would think the product displaying the wool mark was brought in from the moon, that it was a type of élitist product that was so unusual and so difficult to come by that it was almost miraculous that it was all wool. That is great advertising, but this is an indigenous raw material. The same applies to real leather. There is nothing more flaithiúlach all around the country than hides and skins, and still people talk about real leather as if it were a commodity which had to be brought in from Mars.

Recently there has been a trend, especially in men's ware, to go back to the use of wool. Young people are going in for sweaters and woollen garments. That trend is bound to have good results for the woollen industry. Perhaps we should be plugging wool a bit harder. We are over-sensitive about offending the EEC when we talk about buying Irish and promoting Irish. There was a time when Irish wear and Irish blankets were well-known all over the world. We had famous names like Ballincorrig, Foxford and Blarney. They were part of our tradition. If at all possible we should start to cultivate them again. Deputy Noonan talked about jobs. This must be an area of job creation.

On the question of a wool marketing board, my personal opinion is that there is possibly a case for producer groups getting together with the people already involved in the marketing scene. I would not favour any type of State authority in this area. With all the extra wool being produced, there must be a case for us to produce of more Irish wool and tweed of the right quality and at the right price. A good promotion job should be done. From the point of view of wear and tear you cannot beat wool.

We have our carpet industries. One in my own constituency is in trouble at the moment. It is a pity to see so many people going for what is really a short term gain with imported synthetic carpets which in the long term are no substitute for a good carpet. People are travelling around with rubbish in the boot of their cars and doing damage to the Irish carpet industry which was a great industry. With proper education in the value of the real product — and I mean the real product; the woollen carpet — people could be brought around slowly to buying a product which was made at home, which has won international fame and has in many places been replaced by some type of raggedy quality product that is being imported from Taiwan.

I was anxious to contribute to the debate so as to emphasise the importance of this industry to our economy. Across Europe there is a great demand for mutton, a demand that has not been filled as yet. There is an opening on the European market for Irish mutton and we should interest ourselves in that. As the Minister, Deputy Connaughton, pointed out, farmers in many areas are inclined to forge ahead into dairying. As that outlet has been curtailed the rearing of sheep is the obvious replacement. In some parts of the country tillage is not suitable but it would not compare with sheep rearing, if it is properly managed. With the aid of An Foras Talúntais we hope to be able to produce high quality mutton. Members who examined carcases at various shows must realise how important breeding is. It was an eye-opener for me to see the difference in poor and good quality carcases.

We must remember that the export scene is different from the home market. The French demand a particular type of lamb and if we are serious about capturing that market we must have the right crossing and the right management. Our lambs must have the right amount of lean and be the correct size. They may appear very small and at one time if a farmer had a creel of such animals he would be inclined to go around the corner with them. However, that is the type of animal the French want.

I have been interested in the whole area of breeding. We have too many low-land flocks. They do not have the genetic capacity to achieve high lambing percentage levels. It has been pointed out to me repeatedly that there is a shortage of known high prolificacy ewes available to sheep farmers. That was stressed to me by a well-known journalist. The production and marketing of these prolific ewes, already available from existing sources, the hill-flocks, must be stimulated and efforts continued to introduce new genetic material for this valuable trait into our low-land breeds. We have made a start on both fronts. A number of hill-cross ewe production groups have been established by the Department and are working closely with ACOT, sheep-breeders associations and livestock marts. Two of the groups, located in Waterford and Donegal, are crossing black-faced ewes with blue Leicester rams. The third group in Carlow are crossing Wicklow cheviots with border Leicester lambs. The co-operative basis of the group is a model for expansion and development in other areas.

It is important to point out that organisations such as AFT are working hard on the breeding areas. For instance, An Foras Talúntais have developed a new source of high prolificacy ewes, the Belclare improver, not a million miles away from the Minister, Deputy Connaughton, or Deputy Kitt. It is anticipated that the proven high lambing rate of these ewes will give a considerable boost to the lowland sheep industry. There should not be complacency about the future market possibilities for sheep and sheep meat. There is still a significant group of sheep producers obtaining poor results in returns either due to poor levels of technical performance or lack of attention to animal condition at the time of sale. Stocking rates could be considerably improved. For example, a stocking rate of over four ewes per acre is common in parts of Britain, especially in the lowland sheep farms. However, in the final reckoning the real key to profitability is the number of lambs weaned per 100 ewes. We lag behind our main competitors in regard to productivity in lowland sheep production. This is a problem that will be tackled as a priority by the Department in conjunction with ACOT and the sheep producers.

The future is encouraging based on forecasts and markets. There is an indication that the overall balance of self-sufficiency for sheep meat in the community will be 76 per cent this year. In order to exploit market opportunities which exist we must learn to manage sheep flocks better. There will have to be at least a minimum size in order to justify the adoption of proper management systems at farm level. Producers and processors will have to apply themselves to the fact that there are substantial differences in terms of prices realised on the export market for carcasses of different quality. EEC markets, in particular the French market, have a system of severe price discounts against overweight and overfat lamb carcasses. Our production and husbandry factors will have to be adapted for this scene.

I should like to mention the ongoing problem of the ravaging of flocks of sheep by marauding dogs. The House will be aware that committees have considered this problem and produced conclusions as to how this should be tackled. Dog wardens have been appointed around the country and they are doing a tremendous job in picking up stray dogs. However, we will have to introduce a national scheme and fund it properly. I am informed that recommendations will be put to the Government shortly on this issue. This is a recurring problem in the lambing season. Each morning we can see the terrible photographs of flocks of ewes that have been torn apart by dogs. It is no harm during this debate to appeal to dog owners to control their animals. All the dog wardens in the world will not solve the problem if the owners of the dogs are irresponsible.

Parents should remember this when at Christmas and on the occasion of birthdays they give little cuddly pups as pets. Some of those pups grow up to be big dogs that are not wanted around the house. They are let loose on the streets and finish up by attacking flocks of sheep. The dog warden system is the proper one. It is worked very efficiently in Wicklow and helps to solve the problem. However, no amount of policing will solve it. We must have an awareness by people in the towns and cities that their dogs wander. In fact dogs wander from Dublin city to the Dublin mountains and worry sheep there. It is important to realise that apart from fouling up footpaths and so on dogs do a lot of damage and cause severe hardship to farmers. It is not only five or six sheep that are slaughtered when dogs chase a flock. The entire pregnant flock could be in jeopardy as a result. The full story does not emerge until the lambing season is over. I should like to compliment the officials of An Chomhairle Olla. They have done a good job in their educational programme. I do not know anybody anywhere in the country who is involved in the sheep business and does not know the wool scene, how sheep should be shorn, how the fleece should be handled, how to avoid the colourants. If somebody does not know how to do these things properly plenty of people around can tell him how to do them.

The disciplines suggested by An Chomhairle Olla have been acted upon and the results have been dramatic, and now the part of their functions that is necessary is being carried on by our Department. Regarding Deputy Noonan's comments about a wool marketing board, by all means let producer groups get together. The IFA at the moment have a very powerful and efficient producer group, the IFA Committee on Wool and Wool Production, chaired by a very efficient and vocal person. He has set up his own relationship with the people on the wool scene. The wool scene is very much like some aspects of the meat trade. It is captured by individuals who are extraordinary enterpreneurs, highly successful, who have found their way into most extraordinary marketplaces. I am quite sure that any producer group to be set up would involve such people and would work for the betterment of the wool trade.

Mr. Kitt

I welcome the opportunity of saying a few words on this Bill. I compliment and give the highest praise to the Wool Council. However, I cannot agree with the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, when he says their job is done. It was amazing to hear so much praise for a council from two Ministers of State followed by the news that that council is to be abolished. We had a similar situation on the last two nights in this House when we discussed rural home economics colleges. We heard praise for those colleges, for their staff and for the courses organised by them. Then we discovered that the Government are not providing the funds to allow their operation to continue.

To abolish the Wool Council is a retrograde step; therefore our party are opposing this Bill. This step will undermine the sheep industry and the position of the wool producers. A great deal of discussion has taken place on how to improve wool production. A committee was set up in 1963 to deal with wool improvements. I will read for the House the terms of reference of that committee. I quote: "To consider and recommend a desirable improvement in the quality, handling and marketing of Irish wool including the question of grading". Those terms of reference were very specific, and that committee did a very good job. They sat for three years and then produced a report. Not all the members on that committee agreed with the findings. A former Member of this House, a one-time colleague of mine and of the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, that was John Callanan, had reservations about the representation on that committee. Only three producer representatives were recommended. When the Wool Council was set up I was glad to see six representatives of the producers and five from the trade on that council. Those 11 members and their chairman struck a very good balance between producers and people in the trade. They met their terms of reference and we had improvements in the quality of handling, marketing and grading. They went about their job comprehensively. They sent questionnaires out to sheep owners. The county instructors at the time did tremendous work in gathering information. The committee realised that we had to increase our sheep numbers in order to increase wool production. They saw clearly that wool production was the Cinderella of the agricultural industry, that it took a secondary place to the production of lamb and mutton on both home and export markets.

The IFA — or the NFA as they were known at the time — accepted the committee's report and also that the committee would be a forerunner for a wool marketing board. The IFA and the committee did a great deal of research into what was going on in other countries. They considered that the British Wool Marketing Board or some similar system, perhaps a co-operative, would be desirable. I would point out that the committee examined not only the British situation but also wool production in New Zealand, Australia, the US, South Africa and even Pakistan. They did very comprehensive research into the way wool production was dealt with there. Most of those countries have a wool board or commission. Since 1968 Governments here have been remiss in not introducing a marketing board.

We are taking a very retrograde step here today, following on the decision of the 1983 budget, if we abolish the existing council without examining some other system or a strengthening of the present system.

The committee on wool improvements wanted the wool board to have full responsibility for the collection of wool from producers, for marketing the wool and also — most important — a guaranteed price for the wool to the producers. I would like to pay tribute not only to the late Deputy John Callanan, who was a member of the Wool Council, but also to the producer members and the trade members, two of whom were from County Galway, Gabriel Browne in Tuam and Patrick Lyons in Newtowndaly, Loughrea. Both trade and producer members did tremendous work. It is retrograde for the Minister to say, following the budget decision last year, that they are no longer needed and that the Department will now take over their functions.

The council held educational exhibitions throughout the country, especially at agricultural shows. Their fashion show was a highlight of the RDS Spring Show. Standards were also improved by demonstrations of sheep shearing.

One must ask why the grant-in-aid of £100,000 could not be continued. Recently we have been discussing instances where money has not been used to best advantage and we have been hearing about large sums paid out in rent for unoccupied offices. The Government have decided not to continue AI and lime subsidies because there will not be EEC funding, yet the money is provided for in the Estimates. Surely the necessary money could be provided to keep the Wool Council in operation.

I wish to pay tribute to voluntary bodies such as the West of Ireland Wool Merchants' Association and the Wool Federation who have done so much for the wool business. Over the years we have improved the quality of our wool. The Wool Council had recommended that there should be price deductions for any faults in wool. Much good work has been done by all the bodies concerned with the wool business but now there is a danger of a decline in quality. Who will now carry out the functions of the Wool Council? The Minister of State seemed to imply that one person would be charged with this responsibility but it is not reasonable that all the very important work carried out by the Wool Council should be entrusted to one person. I am glad that information on prices will continue to be available on the radio.

The Minister has done a bad day's work in undermining the sheep industry and wool production. I will be opposing the Bill but I would ask the Minister when replying to give an assurance that there will not be a drop in the quality of our wool and to state who will carry out the functions of the Wool Council. The committee which reported in 1966 recommended the setting up of a board and I am concerned that this recommendation is not being listened to. I would welcome a statement by the Minister that there are no grounds for the fears expressed by that committee.

Mr. Sheehan

I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. It is a step in the right direction and I foresee a very bright future for our sheep industry. At present we are only skimming the surface of its potential. It has been treated thoroughout the years as the Cinderella of agriculture, but I have no doubt that under the guidance of this Minister it will continue to grow and prosper.

Some 100,000 acres are lying dormant along the western seaboard from Cork to Donegal. That land is starved of lime and manure and very low in fertility. If the fertility of the pastures could be improved our sheep population would at least triple within five years. In view of the impact this industry could have on our economy it is vital that steps be taken immediately to improve the soil fertility of mountain land. We cannot expect a measure of return from soil that is starved of manure and lime. The Department and the Minister should explore every possibility to ensure that this work is carried out as quickly as possible.

Our total sheep numbers are approximately 3.75 million. This figure could easily be increased to ten million if proper attention were devoted to the industry. The Minister states that total wool production is worth £13 million per annum and almost £9 million of that is produced by Galway and black-faced mountain sheep, while £4 million is produced by Cheviot and lowland breeds. This is a true reflection of the primary importance of mountain sheep and their potential. Unfortunately the industry was neglected by successive Governments.

Over 70 per cent of the Irish clip is exported, of which 65 per cent goes to Great Britain and the balance to France, Belgium and and Eastern bloc countries. It is vital that the Department of Agriculture should explore and create markets for our wool products, especially on the Continent, because we are relying on Britain as our main customer. I have no doubt that the Department and the 79 licensed exporters will continue to expand exports to other nations. I should like to see the Scandinavian wool market, particularly Norway and Sweden, explored — a region which is under snow for so many months of the year. Surely there is an unlimited market there? I am amazed that this has not been tapped. I have no doubt that among our 79 licensed wool exporters there are some entrepreneurs with ideas on these lines and, if this is not the case, then the Minister should see to it that that position is changed. It is very bad management to place all one's eggs in the one basket and experience has shown that our wool exports to the Eastern bloc countries have not had great results. A lucrative trade could be built up with Western Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain and other countries. There should not be only one outlet for this valuable product. I hope in the not too distant future to hear good news in that respect from the Minister and his Department as the sooner we broaden our market on these lines, the better.

An Chomhairle Olla have done a very good job over the 15 years of their existence. However, it is well known that our Irish farmers, especially the mountain sheep farmers, are apt pupils. They know that the guidlines given and policies carried out by An Chomhairle Olla have been correct. These have brought our wool industry out of the doldrums and made it a vital part of our economy. Before the emphasis was laid by the then Minister and his Department on these important aspects and before An Chomhairle Olla was established, knowledge among the farmers as regards the marketing of wool was practically nil. They all are now experts in the handling of this commodity. Every farmer knows it to be of vital importance to him that a high class product be available on the market for export. Nothing will educate a farmer more quickly than a good return for his products. Before An Chomhairle came into operation and before the strict departmental regulations were laid down as regards the marketing and exporting of wool, any kind of trash was put on the Irish market and exposed for sale; but a complete change of outlook has come about within the past 15 years. Every farmer today takes the greatest care of his clipper wool to ensure he gets the maximum return from his wool crop. It is vital for him to offer a product second to none on the world market and to have a product which will obtain the highest price available on that market.

It is very gratifying to hear our Minister today saying that, although An Chomhairle Olla has been disbanded since February 1983, the price of wool is 9p a pound dearer than it was on this date last year. That alone bears out the belief that the industry is on a sound and level footing and that the wool producers will be able to stand the test of time. They have learned a considerable amount about the industry and how to produce a marketable commodity. I have no doubt that they will continue to do this because it will be in their own interest. The industry has reached a point where it no longer requires the services of An Chomhairle Olla and where, with proper direction from the Minister and his Department, it will survive.

Bodies such as An Comhairle were not established for prosperity. Their aim was to build up an industry and put it on a sound footing. Any Minister for Agriculture or Department of Agriculture worth their salt will give the Irish sheep producer the benefit of all available information towards further expansion of the industry and of warning against possible pitfalls through lax efforts. Many sheep farmers in County Donegal will never again be lax in their efforts as far as the marketing of wool is concerned.

Continuation of the effort to promote the use of wool is a venture. This industry is worth £11 million to our Exchequer and that could easily be increased to £33 million or £34 million, providing our sheep industry gets the proper incentive to expand. The outlook in the EEC markets is bright now for that industry. It is only fit and proper that the emphasis should be placed on it that should have been the case 20 years ago. It is better late than never. I have no doubt, when the Minister of State, who is in charge of that particular part of the industry, and his senior advisers in the Department, formulate a proper sheep policy the better it will be for the economy.

The quality of the product is essential. As everybody knows in every walk of life and in every industry the quality of the product is the keynote to success. Nobody should get away with the idea that, if he produces X pounds more of wool than he should be producing and is not producing the proper quality and type of wool, he will be rewarded for his efforts. It is very important for our farmers to ensure that the quality of their products is A1. It is the responsibility of the Minister and his Department to ensure that the producer gets the best price possible for his wool. I am pleased with the assurance given by the Minister that the Department will continue to monitor progress in this industry. I appeal to him to be very vigilant.

We should endeavour to maintain a standard where quality prevails. Incentive should be given to wool producers to maintain that standard. If we allow the quality of the product to drift we are actually cutting a twig to beat ourselves with. Every sheep farmer who has any experience of sheep production knows that very well. I am pleased that the Minister has given a guarantee of constant inspection by the departmental officers of wool buyers' premises and of export premises. This is very important if the industry is to thrive. As I said at the outset, An Chomhairle Olla did a lot of very good work and formulated policy in relation to the improvement of wool stocks and markets.

Like other Deputies, I would like to be associated with complimenting the members of An Chomhairle Olla over the years for their hard work on behalf of sheep producers. The time is now ripe for those producers to stand on their own feet and for the Minister of State, who is concerned with that particular aspect of agricultural policy, to continue the headlines laid down for a successful and viable industry. I cannot agree with Deputy Noonan that abolishing An Chomhairle Olla is a retrograde step. If any Minister for Agriculture fails in his responsibility to sheep producers he should not be Minister for Agriculture. If the section in the Department of Agriculture responsible for wool production fail in their duty they should share the blame. Any Minister for Agriculture should be able to run this part of the sheep industry to perfection.

The Minister can get advice from the county sheep dipping committees and the IFA sheep committee. I would like to pay tribute to the IFA for the information they have given to the Department over the years in this respect. I would also like to thank the members of the various sheep dipping committees throughout the country who have played their part in supplying proper information to the Minister and the Department over the years. I would like to remind Deputy Noonan that his county of Limerick has no county sheep dipping committee. This is a disgraceful state of affairs.

Mr. Mac Giolla

He is fine without it.

Mr. Sheehan

Your sheep might be fine without it in Dublin. The constituency that I come from——

Acting Chairman (Mr. Barrett,

Dublin North-West): The Deputy should address the Chair.

Mr. Sheehan

The constituency I represent is a different one to Deputy Mac Giolla's constituency.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is straying away from the detate.

Mr. Sheehan

I am not the only one who strayed away from the debate.

Mr. D. Gallagher

He is unfair to the House. He knows the Minister is being called at 1.15 p.m.

Mr. Mac Giolla

He is talking it out.

Mr. Sheehan

I would also like to remind Deputy Noonan that it is of vital importance to the export trade and the sheep industry that proper sheep dipping committees be set up in every sheep county in the country.

Mr. D. Gallagher

They will soon be abolished. That will be the next move by the Department.

Mr. Sheehan

That is what the Deputy thinks. I would like to pay a tribute to the members of the Joint Cork and Kerry Sheep Dipping Committee who over the past 15 years worked unrelentlessly in their efforts to eradicate sheep scab. I should like to pay tribute to them for the way they have tried to get a particular kind of dye available to ensure that all sheep are dipped. I wish to emphasise to the Minister the necessity to ensure that the county councils concerned should set up sheep dipping committees. European countries will not accept our products unless they are free of sheep scab. We must not forget the immense damage sheep scab can do to wool products.

All the counties on the western seaboard should come together periodically at a central venue and share their information with regard to the sheep industry. Speakers on the other side wanted to know who will promote the sale of wool on the abolition of An Chomhairle Olla. Surely the 79 registered wool exporters will have the ambition and the vision to explore this outlet for their products and I have no doubt that Córas Tráchtála will help them.

There has been a suggestion by Members opposite that the Minister is throwing this industry out of the window. I can assure them that is not so. There is no Member with more intelligence, capability, tenacity and courage than the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton.

Mr. D. Gallagher

The Deputy is downgrading the Minister.

Mr. Sheehan

The Minister of State comes from a county that is producing almost 40 per cent of our mountain sheep. He has brought a wealth of talent into the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. D. Gallagher

We agree he is better than the man from Dungarvan.

Mr. Sheehan

The Minister for Agriculture is quite capable of looking after himself. If Fianna Fáil Ministers for Agriculture had been as capable and as efficient as this Minister there would be no animosity in the agricultural community. The Minister has done valuable work for this country in the EEC. All of us can play a part in safeguarding this valuable industry. The future of the wool industry must be guaranteed. People should insist on buying a pure wool product when they purchase suits, skirts, coats and so on. I have the pleasure of wearing an all-wool suit and I am proud of the emblem on that suit. I ask Members to ensure than when they next place an order for a suit they should make sure it has the all-wool stamp and not a stamp of a synthetic commodity from Taiwan or from eastern countries whose industries operate under slave labour.

Acting Chairman

I must now call on the Minister to reply.

Mr. Sheehan

I have the greatest confidence in the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, who is spearheading the drive to ensure that this industry will expand.

Mr. Lyons

What about the lime subsidy?

Mr. Sheehan

The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. I would remind the House that the Minister of State has vision, tenacity and courage. For the duration of this Dáil, which will be another four years——

Mr. Lyons

Wishful thinking.

Mr. Sheehan

——he will ensure that the industry goes from strength to strength to the benefit of Irish farmers.

Acting Chairman

I am calling on the Minister to speak.

Mr. D. Gallagher

On a point of order, it is disgraceful the way this debate has been treated by the Government side. Several speakers on this side have wished to speak. There was a time limit on the debate and we agreed that the Minister would be called at 1.15 p.m. However, two Government speakers and the Minister have taken up most of the time given to this debate. I know that other Deputies on the Government side also wanted to contribute. The way we have been treated in this debate is a dreadful insult to the House.

Acting Chairman

Before I call on the Minister, I should like to remind Deputies that Deputy Dowling has informed me that the Minister is prepared to give him five minutes of his time. The next speaker I have here is Deputy Noel Treacy.

Mr. N. Treacy

I request the Minister of State to allow the debate to continue and to conclude it on another occasion. It is unfair that a Deputy from Cork can meander on like this and deprive people who understand the sheep industry of an opportunity to contribute to the debate. I ask the Minister to allow an extension of the debate.

Mr. D. Gallagher

The House decided this morning that the Minister would be called at 1.15 p.m. I would not have any objection to Deputy Dowling speaking now if we had got fair play in the debate. I do not think the Chair has any option but to call the Minister.

Mr. Dowling

I also wanted an opportunity to express my views on this matter and I regret that I was not given that opportunity. I have waited all morning to speak.

Mr. D. Gallagher

It is not in order for the Deputy to make a speech.

Acting Chairman

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. There is an order of the House to call the Minister at 1.15 p.m. It is now three minutes after that time and I am calling on the Minister of State to speak.

Mr. Dowling

On a point of information——

Acting Chairman

There is no such thing as a point of information. I am calling on the Minister to speak.

Mr. N. Treacy

Before the Minister starts, is there any hope of reconsidering the decision, of allowing the debate to continue and to conclude it on another occasion?

Acting Chairman

It is an order of the House that the Minister must be called at 1.15 p.m.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture (Mr. Connaughton)

It is obvious that Members on both sides of the House wished to speak in the debate but the House has made an order and there is nothing I can do about it. I wish to thank the Deputies for an interesting debate on an important matter.

The Opposition Deputies have claimed that the Government have abandoned all interest in and responsibility for the sheep and wool business. I wish to refute that. Our sheep industry is operating in a good environment at present, principally because the Common Agricultural Policy has been extended to cover sheep meat when, for the first time ever in the history of this country, sheep farmers are getting a reasonable crack of the whip. But that commenced in the last three or four years only——

Mr. Wilson

Thanks to Jim Gibbons.

Mr. Connaughton

——and anything that comes their way they are entitled to. From the intelligence available to me from European and world markets — while we all understand that this is engaging in a little crystal ball-gazing — it appears that there will be quite good markets for out sheep and wool in 1984.

Many aspects of the marketing organisation of the wool board, as it used to be called, have been discussed here this morning. I should point out that a number of the important duties and responsibilities of that board will be continued by the Department of Agriculture. I went to great lengths earlier this morning to assure all Members that the intelligence from market places all over Europe on pricing and general trends will, as always, be available. It cannot be over-emphasised how important that is to the industry. Over the years, even when world economies were in depression, many sheep farmers felt they did not get a proper price for their wool. Because of new systems of communications, because the wool board were always good at this, because we had that expertise to hand, this bulletin will continue to be produced from which sheep farmers all over the country will benefit over the season. I want to make that perfectly clear.

Mr. N. Treacy

Does that mean that all sheep farmers will be circulated with this individually?

Mr. Connaughton

Not at all, that never happened. The Deputy should know that.

Mr. N. Treacy

I worked for the wool industry for five seasons.

Mr. Connaughton

It has always been done through the media, through the radio, television and papers. It was never circulated to individual sheep owners. Apart from anything else there would not be sufficient time because, as the Deputy will be aware, the situation changes from week to week.

I want to denounce the fallacy being prepounded here today that this is a one-man operation, that there will be one man only now in Ireland involved so far as the whole question of wool is concerned. That is not correct at all. When I spoke earlier today about the inspection of wool buyers' premises——

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): I did not say that. I said there was one man doing the work of the wool council which the Minister is now abolishing. That is what I said, so let us get it straight.

Mr. Connaughton

What I am saying is this, that there will be no fewer than 22 or, perhaps, 25 agricultural officers, perhaps even more, who will on occasion during the season be at liberty to call——

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West):——on occasion; they were always doing it.

Mr. Connaughton

Yes, but I want to make it clear that they will still be doing so. But the impression from some of the Deputy's party——

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): The Minister should come straight.

Mr. Connaughton

I am being as straight as I can be about it. I want to make it clear that it is not a one-man show.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): It is a one-man show.

Mr. N. Treacy

On a point of information, can the Minister tell the House what is the net saving in terms of personnel as a result of the abolition of the wool council? What is the net saving in terms of human beings?

Mr. Connaughton

About four persons.

Mr. N. Treacy

How many people remain as a result of the saving being effected?

Mr. Connaughton

One.

Mr. N. Treacy

How many of the permanent staff remain?

Mr. Connaughton

One.

Mr. N. Treacy

Point taken.

Acting Chairman

Will Deputies please allow the Minister to continue?

Mr. Connaughton

One permanent staff member but 24 on the ground who have always been carrying out those inspections, as such. The next and most important matter with which I should deal is that it has been contended here that there will be no advice available to producers. That will not be the case at all, because the wool section within the Department are negotiating with ACOT to ensure a steady supply of advice on marketing trends, production methods and so on. And of course, there is the Agricultural Institute.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West):——extra work for a depleted ACOT service.

Mr. Connaughton

This will be an integrated approach to the entire industry.

Mr. N. Treacy

A fragmented effort to destroy agriculture.

Mr. Connaughton

It has been contended here also this morning that there will in future be no selling by grade. That is not correct. There is a statutory obligation on producers to sell wool by various grades and that will continue——

Mr. N. Treacy

At all levels?

Mr. Connaughton

As Deputies are well aware, that has been one of the most fundamental aspects of wool sales over the years which will continue also. Once one has the market intelligence, so important, once there are inspections of buyers' premises, once ACOT are involved in advising and there is grade selling, one has sufficient safeguards. Those were the primary responsibilities of the wool board.

In my view the wool board achieved its goal in the last 15 years. There was a huge educational job to be done on the presentation of wool and all aspects connected with it. I have no doubt now but that certain aspects once foreign to so many sheep farmers were learned very speedily because it was recognised that, at the end of the day, it was money that made all the difference, that if one had a good product for the wool buyer, who, in turn, brought it to Bradford——

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): One hundred thousand pounds made the difference to the Minister's Department.

Mr. Connaughton

That has meant that every sheep-shearing farmer in the country now understands the levels of cleanliness and efficiency necessary. I have no doubt but that, in that respect, the wool board have done a fine job which has now been completed.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): Not at all.

Mr. Connaughton

It is a well known fact, indeed I might add a note of caution about the country, or the Government getting involved in a wool marketing organisation on the same lines as the Pigs and Bacon Commission because Deputies will have seen that that commission ran counter to EEC policy. But there is nothing in the world preventing producers and buyers from sitting around the table formulating a policy of mutual benefit. Perhaps that is something producers and the trade will now do because that constitutes the next step on this long road. There are certain world markets that still remain to be explored. Indeed it is a long road from the initial sheep-shearing operation to the production of wool, finishing up with the fashion trade. The experience of all countries worldwide, including those in the EEC, has been that it is difficult to integrate the whole of the operations of the industry in such a way that producers have some control over the end price. That has never really happened because there will always be problems encountered through fluctuations in wool sales and it would be very difficult for any organisation to control them. At the same time a lot can be done, and perhaps the time is now ripe for producers generally and wool merchants to ascertain what they can do in this respect.

The sheep industry is in quite a healthy state at present. I believe we will see a 6 per cent or 7 per cent increase in ewe numbers this year and there is no reason to doubt that we will have a similar increase next year. Because of various EEC changes being proposed, particularly on the part of the sheep management committee at present — there will be important days ahead for our Government in Brussels in discussions on certain laws in relation to sheep meat, subsidies and so on. I want to give the House an undertaking that at these meetings the Government will have a very high profile. Coming from a major sheep-producing county I more than understand the important part the industry plays in our economy, amongst the agricultural community generally and others also. I can give the House an undertaking that everything that is humanly possible will be done to ensure that the lot of our sheep farmers will be improved and that the upsurge in price they received over the last two or three years will continue so that this great industry will take its rightful place amongst the many other sectors of our economy.

Mr. Wilson

Does the Minister intend to follow the example of his Fianna Fáil predecessor and establish a fund to compensate for the loss of sheep in Glangevlin, County Cavan, and other areas as a result of the snowstorms which occurred earlier in the year?

Mr. Connaughton

I do not have the full facts of that case so I am unable to answer.

Question put and agree to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Mr. Connaughton

Subject to agreement between the Whips, it will be taken next week.

Mr. N. Treacy

It is very disappointing that the Minister is unable to tell us when Committee Stage will be taken especially when he did not agree to extend this debate.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 22 May 1984.