Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 May 1984

Vol. 350 No. 10

Estimates, 1984. - Vote 29: Office of the Minister for Education (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £64,186,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1984, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

The total gross provision for 1984 in the five Votes of the education group of Votes as provided for in the revised Estimates volume and taking account of the revised Estimates circulated for the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Education, is £965,525,610, including £42,643,610 as appropriations-in-aid. The comparable outturn in 1983 was £894,322,084, including £40,702,630 as appropriations-in-aid. The amount being sought for 1984 represents an increase of £71,203,526 or 8 per cent over the 1983 outturn.

The sum of £965,525,610 being sought for 1984 includes provision for the cost of the general increases in public service pay provided for in the 1983 public service pay agreement but does not provide for special increases, or for the full parity for public service pensioners provided for in the budget. Provision for these increases is made in the Vote for increases in remuneration and pensions. The cost of these increases is estimated at £2,771,300. In addition, a sum of £14,800,000 is being provided from youth employment levy funds towards the cost of secretarial and pre-employment courses. The total overall amount being provided for the education services is thus £983,096,910. The comparable outturn figure for 1983 was £918,637,684, of which £894,322,084 was a charge on the education Votes, a sum of £9,325,600 was charged to the Vote for increases in remuneration and pensions and £14,990,000 was received from youth employment levy funds. This overall provision of £983,096,910 represents an increase of £64,459,226.

The capital provision for 1984 is £82,400,000 including an additional £2 million for primary school building provided for in the budget.

The gross non-capital provision contained in the £965,525,610 sought in Votes 29 to 33 is £883,125,610. The corresponding outturn figure for 1983 was £804,874,324. The provision for 1984 represents an increase of £78,251,286 or 9.75 per cent over the outturn for 1983. The non-capital content of the overall provision of £983,096,910 is £900,696,910. The corresponding 1983 outturn was £829,189,924. The overall non-capital provision thus represents an increase of £71,506,986 or 8.62 per cent over 1983.

The gross provision for pay and pensions for 1984 in Votes 29 to 33 is £726,283,600 or 82.24 per cent of the non-capital provision. The comparable outturn figures for 1983 were £657,717,104 and 81.7 per cent. The provision for 1984 represents an increase of £68,566,496 or 10.42 per cent over 1983. The pay and pensions content of the overall non-capital provision, taking account of the Vote for increases in remuneration and pensions and the subvention from youth employment levy funds, of £900,696,910 is £740,194,900 or 82.18 per cent. The comparable 1983 outturn figures were £678,282,704 and 81.8 per cent. The overall provision for pay and pensions for 1984 represents an increase of £61,912,196 or 9.13 per cent. The increase in the provision for pay and pensions represents 96 per cent of the total increase.

The gross provision for non-pay non-capital expenditure in Votes 29 to 33 is £156,842,010 or 17.76 per cent of the non-capital provision. The comparable outturn for 1983 was £147,157,220. The provision for 1984 shows an increase of £9,684,790 or 6.58 per cent over 1983. The overall provision, taking account of the subvention from youth employment levy funds, is £160,502,010 or 17.82 per cent of the overall non-capital provision. The comparable 1983 outturn figures were £150,907,220 and 18.2 per cent. This overall provision represents an increase of £9,594,790 or 6.4 per cent.

The main objective in framing the 1984 Estimates was to maintain the existing level of services. This objective has been achieved. The Government recognised, however, that even in the current difficult financial circumstances, provision for some improvements would be made reflecting the commitments in the Programme for Action in Education 1984-1987. The Estimates, accordingly, include over £7 million for improvements including: (I) an increase of £4 per pupil in the rate of capitation grant payable in respect of the running costs of national schools, costing £2.3 million in 1984; (II) a special fund of £0.5 million for primary education in disadvantaged areas; (III) an increase of £8 per pupil in the rate of grant payable to secondary school authorities in lieu of tuition fees, costing £1.6 million in 1984; (IV) an increased provision of £781,000 for in-service training (£146,000), aid for school books (£235,000), and micro-computers in secondary schools (£400,000); (V) an additional £2 million for primary school building and £300,000 for grants to sport organisations provided for in the budget; (VI) £300,000 for the curriculum and examinations board.

The provision in the vote for the Office of the Minister for Education is for: (A) the administrative costs of the Department; (B) the services in relation to art and culture in the National Library; (C) miscellaneous educational services.

The net amount being sought this year for this Vote is £64,186,000 an increase of £5,423,000 or 9.2 per cent over the 1983 outturn of £58,763,000, including a charge of £168,500 on the Vote for increases in remuneration and pensions.

The administrative costs of the Department in 1984 are estimated at £14,331,400 as against an outturn of £13,650,100 in 1983. This is an increase of 5 per cent.

The functions of the Minister for Education in relation to the National Museum, the Irish Manuscripts Commission, the Chester Beatty Library and Marsh's Library have been transferred to the Taoiseach with effect from 27 January 1984 and expenditure from that date is being provided for in a revised Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach. In addition, the Government have decided that the functions of the Commissioners of Public Works in relation to school buildings should be transferred to the Minister for Education. Pending finalisation of the administrative details of this latter transfer the provision for this service continues to be shown in the Vote for Public Works.

The capital provision for school building is already included in my Department's Votes.

A sum of £11,045,000 is being provided for higher education grants, an increase of almost £2.5 million or 29 per cent over 1983. The increase in the cost of this scheme is mainly due to improvements in the means test provisions and in the value of the maintenance element of grants introduced in 1981 by the Minister for the Public Service, Deputy John Boland. The cost of these grants have risen from £5.49 million in 1982 to £11.045 million in 1984, an increase of 101 per cent. The number of grant holders has increased from 6,263 in 1981-82 to an estimated 8,650 in 1983-84, an increase of 38 per cent. When one takes into account the scholarships awarded by vocational education committees and the ESF grants, it is estimated that some 16,760 students at third-level are in receipt of grants. This represents 35.6 per cent of the total estimated student body at third-level.

The provision being made in Subhead D.6 for grants to students at Thomond College of Education shows a similar increase — from £648,000 in 1983 to £942,000. This reflects an increase in the number of grant-holders and in the value of grants. A further £654,000 is being provided in subhead C.2 for scholarships, research grants and fellowships. This is 12.5 per cent more than in 1983.

Provision is again being made for a grant-in-aid fund for cultural, scientific and educational activities. The organisations which receive grants from this fund include the Irish Countrywomen's Association; An Cumann le Béaloideas Éireann; the Music Association of Ireland; Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland; Comhdháil Múinteoirí na Rincí Gaelacha; the National Film Institute; Dublin Institute of Adult Education; An Cumann Scoildramaíochta; Irish Committee of Historical Sciences; Royal Zoological Society of Ireland; People's College; Aontas; An Foras Éireann; the Planetarium, Armagh; Slogadh; and Dublin Philharmonic Society. For the first time this year, the National Adult Literacy Agency are being given a grant-in-aid. A sum of £10,000 is included in the overall provision for that agency.

The provision of £706,000 for international activities shows an increase of 21 per cent. This provision is for a contribution to the UNESCO budget and incidental expenses of the UNESCO National Commission; costs relating to participation in the European Schools' Day Competition and in the international apprentice competitions; contribution to and scholarships at the College of Europe, Bruges; educational tours to the USA for teachers; expenses in connection with the organisation of any international conference of EEC, Council of Europe, OECD etc., which may be held in the country; scholarships and other expenses arising from participation in the European University Institute, Florence; EEC study visit schemes and exchanges under cultural agreements. Provision is being included this year for membership by Ireland of the Standing Conference of the International Baccalaureate.

The provision being made for operating costs of the school transport service is £28,925,000 in 1984 as against £27,762,400 in 1983. This will allow the current level of service to be maintained without an increase in charges. A further £70,000 is being provided as capital for the provision of a small number of mini buses.

A sum of £120,000 is being sought in Subheads E.1 to E.4 for various expenses of the National Library as against £96,630 in 1983. The increase is mainly for the purchase of books etc.

The provision in this Vote is for Primary Education, including national school teacher superannuation. The net amount sought is £350,847,000, an increase of £28,915,180 or 9 per cent over the 1983 outturn of £321,931,820 including a charge of £6,168,000 on the Vote for increases in remuneration and pensions.

Salaries, allowances and superannuation of national teachers account for £311,791,000 or 85 per cent of the gross total provision for the Vote.

At present approximately 20,650 national teachers are employed in 3,400 schools. The provision sought reflects the full year cost of an additional 150 teachers appointed in autumn 1983 and includes provision for an additional 200 teachers in 1984. Recoupment of costs incurred in the employment of substitutes during teachers' absences will cost an estimated £4,630,000 in 1984.

Hitherto, the provision sought in Subhead C.1 for salaries and allowances of national teachers has been for the gross amount less 5 per cent superannuation contributions. For 1984 the amount provided for is the gross amount and the 5 per cent contributions are being included as appropriations-in-aid in Subhead F. While this does not affect the net amount sought for the Vote as a whole, it does give a clearer picture of the cost of salaries and pensions.

The gross provision for national teachers' superannuation is £43,378,000. This is offset by appropriations-in-aid of £15,041,000. Pensions are currently being paid to 4,778 former teachers as well as to spouses and children of former teachers.

A sum of £13,060,000 is being provided in subhead C.5. This includes provision for an increase of £4 per pupil from £17 to £21 in the rate of capitation grant payable towards the running costs of national schools which will cost an estimated £2.3 million in 1984. In addition, a special fund of £500,000 to aid primary pupils who are educationally disadvantaged is being established this year.

A sum of £28,750,000 is being provided for the building, equipping and furnishing of national schools, including the additional £2 million provided for in the budget. Projects for which grants may be paid include the provision of new schools in new housing areas, additional classrooms in existing schools, essential facilities such as sanitation, heating, lighting and furniture in existing schools, new schools where necessary for mentally and physically handicapped children, upgrading of existing schools to meet modern requirements and replacement of prefabricated accommodation.

A sum of £6,677,000 is being sought for the non-capital costs of the colleges of education for primary teachers. A further £944,000 is being provided for loans and grants to students of the colleges.

The net amount being sought for post-primary education in 1984 is £405,499,000, an increase of £23,207,310 or 6.1 per cent over the 1983 outturn of £382,241,690.

Pay and pensions account for £322,709,000 or 75 per cent of the gross £432,401,000 being provided.

A sum of £161,747,000 is being provided for incremental salary and allowances of secondary teachers. There are currently 11,900 secondary teachers in receipt of incremental salary.

A sum of £93,559,000 is being provided in subhead A.2 as grants to vocational education committees as compared with an expenditure of £92,913,490 in 1983. The 1984 provision does not include, however, a sum of £14 million from Youth Employment Agency funds which will be made available to vocational education committees towards the cost of secretarial and pre-employment courses, £2.2 million more than in 1983. In addition, the provision of capital for vocational school building as a voted capitalservice since 1 January 1983 has reduced substantially the loan repayments to be made by VECs. Direct comparison between the grant being provided in this subhead for 1984 and the 1983 outturn does not, therefore, reflect accurately the increase in funds at the disposal of the committees.

A sum of £35,751,000 is being provided in subhead D.1 in respect of the running costs of comprehensive and community schools compared with an outturn of £29,964,940 in 1983. Provision is also being made for a subvention from Youth Employment Levy Funds of £800,000 in 1984 against £1,600,000 in 1983. The total amount being made available for the service is thus £36,551,000 as against £31,564,940, an increase of £4,986,060 or 15.8 per cent. This increased provision reflects the continuing growth of the number of pupils in these schools and the opening of a number of new schools.

In addition to the grants to vocational education committees provided for in subhead A.2, which are mainly in respect of second-level education, a sum of £51,569,000 is being provided in subhead D.2 towards the running costs of regional technical colleges and technological and other colleges run by VECs. The corresponding figure for 1983 was £46,870,230 of which £1.59 million came from Youth Employment Levy Funds.

Hitherto, money was provided in subhead F.1 to enable payments to be made to the Secondary Teachers' Pension Fund to meet any shortfall between income from teachers' contributions and the expenditure on pensions and other awards. As the fund has not had capital assets for some time, it has been decided, with the agreement of the Ministers for Finance and the Public Service, that it should be discontinued, that the cost of pensions and other awards should be made a direct charge on the vote and that pension contributions should be appropriated in aid of the Vote.

The gross provision being made for secondary teachers' superannuation is thus much greater than the provision which would have been made if the fund were being continued but the net provision sought, after taking account of contributions being shown as appropriations-in-aid, remains unchanged.

A sum of £29,064,500 is being provided in Subhead C for six different schemes of grants to secondary school authorities, an increase of 10 per cent over 1983. The grant in lieu of tuition fees is being increased by £8 per pupil from £92 per pupil to £100. Approximately £400,000 is being included in the provision for science and other equipment grants for microcomputers in secondary schools. The provision for grants towards the cost of school books is being increased by 11.3 per cent.

The capital provision in this Vote is £37,600,000. The provision for secondary, vocational and community-comprehensive schools is £33.2 million and includes provision for expenditure on construction, furniture, equipment and fees, and for sites other than secondary school sites.

The investment in post-primary school building forms part of the ongoing programme designed to meet the increase in enrolments arising through population growth as well as population shifts; replacing unsatisfactory and uneconomic accommodation; and meeting the backlog of places for which short-term arrangements were made, mainly in the form of temporary prefabricated accommodation.

About 113,000 permanent places — 73,000 new places and 40,000 replacement places — were provided in the period 1966 to 1982 against a growth in enrolments in that period of 176,000 students. In the period to the end of the decade it is estimated that, subject to the availability of funds about 80,000 places will be required — 30,000 to meet new enrolment growth, 20,000 to meet the backlog of places for which temporary arrangements were made and 30,000 replacement places either in the form of major upgrading or replacement where use of existing accommodation is no longer economic. About 13,000 places — 7,400 new places and 5,600 replacement places — were provided in 1983.

The provision of £4.4 million for regional and other technical and specialist colleges is mainly related to costs arising from final accounts and work on ongoing projects, as well as projects in the course of planning, namely, Tralee RTC and Colleges of Technology at Bolton Street, Kevin Street and Bishop Street and minor capital projects.

The net amount sought for residential homes and special schools is £3,740,000 an increase of £716,690 or 23.7 per cent over the corresponding outturn of £3,023,310 for 1983. Arising from the recommendations of the Task Force on Child Care Services, the provision for grants to residential homes which are certified industrial schools under the Children's Act 1908, has been transferred to the Vote for Health with effect from 1 January 1984. The expenditure in 1983 on the services transferred was £615,000. Subheads A and G are being retained in this Vote with a reduced provision as my Department have retained responsibility for one school which is a certified reformatory school for girls.

Subhead B provides for the operational costs of the institutions for young offenders — Finglas Children's Centre, Scoil Ard Mhuire, Lusk, St. Joseph's Special School, Clonmel, Trinity House, Lusk and Cuan Mhuire Assessment Centre, Whitehall. A sum of £730,000 is being provided for capital development in respect of work at Trinity House, Lusk, St. Joseph's Clonmel and other minor works.

A sum of £98,660,000 is being sought for the Vote for Higher Education which provides for grants-in-aid of an tÚdarás um Ard-Oideachas in respect of its own general expenses and the current and capital costs of designated institutions of higher education, and of the Dublin Dental Hospital, the Cork Hospitals' Board and the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies.

A sum of £448,000 is being provided as a grant-in-aid of the general expenses of the Higher Education Authority, an increase of 5 per cent on the 1983 outturn of £428,000. A sum of £80,309,000 is being provided as a grant-in-aid to the Higher Education Authority towards the general non-capital costs of the universities and other designated institutions of higher education which are funded through the HEA.

A sum of £15,000,000 is being provided in the Vote for capital costs. £14.85 million is for projects funded through the Higher Education Authority and is intended to cover building and equipping costs in relation to Phase II at the NIHE, Limerick, building work on Phase II of the library at UCD and on an extension to the Albert College building for NIHE, Dublin, equipment renewals and small capital projects; £150,000 is being provided in respect of third-level institutions not funded by the HEA, mainly for equipment and furniture.

I want now to turn to some general educational issues. I do not propose to refer in detail to the Programme for Action or the Curriculum and Examinations Board which were the highlights of my first year in office. The House will recall that on 6 March last, I opened a debate on the Programme for Action — a debate which stands adjourned. I do not intend to go over the same ground. Instead, I propose to address myself to a couple of major areas.

First, I want to talk about parents and their role in education. I do so because their role is crucial. The process of education takes place as much in the home as in the school. The pre-school years of any child are as important as the later formative years in the school environment. The educational process should be a co-operative venture between parents and teachers. Parents are an essential element in education since they are legally responsible for their children's education. Our own Constitution lays down that the parent is the primary educator.

Increased formal involvement of parents should be an essential feature of educational planning. The main parties in education are, of course, the churches, the State, the teachers and the parents. Up to ten years ago, the parents were sleeping partners in the process. Since then, they have become organised and have developed a new dynamism in place of their former passive role. They have established national parent organisations and have become participants in school management.

They are now poised to make their full contribution to discussion and decision-making in education. For my part, I was most impressed with their contribution to the preparation of the Programme for Action. It was of a very high professional standard.

What has amazed me is the fact that it has taken so long to recognise in a formal way the involvement of parents in education. I was not long in office before I realised their potential. Accordingly, for the first time ever, I involved them in our educational planning. The national bodies were invited to participate in the preparation of The Programme for Action. The Working Party in my Department which helped me to prepare the programme met them on two occasions.

I have stressed in the programme the need for parents to organise themselves with a representative parents' council. I have promised that I shall facilitate the setting up of a council in any way that I can and that I shall continue the consultative process with the new council when established. Towards this end preliminary meetings with the existing national bodies of parents have been held to discuss the setting up of a council.

It is important that the council should be representative of all parents and not just those of one type of school, secondary, community-comprehensive, vocational or primary. I would like to emphasise the fact that the success of a National Parents Council will depend in large part on the effectiveness of parental involvement at the level of the individual school. Ideally I would like to see the existence of a parents council in each school in the country. Such councils would then form the basis from which to elect representatives to regional committees from which the national body would be drawn.

The House will be aware that parents are represented on the boards of management of primary and community schools. I am now arranging for parents to be represented on boards of management of comprehensive schools. None of us in this House needs to be reminded of the efforts and the sacrifices which Irish parents have made down the years for the education of their children. I look forward in the years to come to a constructive role being played by them.

Now I want to turn to the area of third level education. One of the greatest problems facing any Minister for Education in this country up to the end of the century is how to cater for the demand for third level education. The increase in enrolments at primary level is tapering off and the rate of increase in enrolments at second level is also declining. On purely demographic grounds alone, therefore, the pressure for places is moving up the educational ladder and will be intense at third level for the remainder of the century. This pressure is accentuated at present, and will be for some time to come, by the employment situation with very many able young people who might hitherto have transferred from school to employment in the public services or other major semi-State or private utilities being unable to do so and opting instead to pursue their education and acquire more marketable qualifications in one or other of our third level institutions. Despite the daunting problems, the Government are determined to provide, as far as possible, third level education for all those seeking it.

If the most recent projection of enrolments in third level education over the rest of the decade prove to be correct, the number of students would rise from about 47,000 in 1982-83 to about 67,000 in 1990-91, an increase of 20,000. These projections are based on the application of current participation rates to increasing student numbers in the senior cycle of second level and do not postulate any change in the transfer rate from leaving certificate to third level education. If the latter transfer rate were to increase for whatever reason, then the projected increase in third level enrolments would, of course, be even greater still. These numbers, tentative though as projections they must be, give us a good idea of the task which faces us if we are to provide third level education for as many as possible of our young people who have the ability to benefit from it.

The Government are committed to providing third level education for as many qualified young people as possible, but must have regard to the level of resources likely to be available. If we had endless resources, our problems would be solved relatively easily, but I am convinced that given good management and the co-operation of all the interests involved we can cope with our difficulties in a way which will not militate against the prospects of our young people and the contribution which they in turn can make to the development of this country in the new technological era.

The development of the regional technical colleges, the colleges of technology, the national institutes for higher education, Thomond College and The National College of Art and Design has transformed the face of third level education in Ireland. The intake into these colleges is now greater than the intake into the universities although the total numbers of students in the latter is still greater because of the longer average duration of courses. When one also takes into account the science and technology elements in university courses, particularly the engineering, science and commerce departments, one appreciates the true extent of the development of science and technology in our third level education system. Figures published some time ago by the Higher Education Authority show that in 1980, for example, over 40 per cent of all new entrants to third level education enrolled in the combined fields of science and technology and a further 20 per cent enrolled in commerce.

The point I wish to make is that there has been a tremendously high investment over recent years in science and technology in the third level system. Not only that, but all of the massive proposed new investment over the rest of the decade is also in that area, and none of the projects at present before the Department relates to the provision of additional arts or social science places.

I think it is necessary to emphasise this point because many people still seem to suffer from the after-effects of the traditional image of the third level system. In saying this I wish to make it clear that I am not in any way denigrating the value of a good liberal arts education; indeed, I was very struck recently by the contribution of an expert from a Nordic country to an international symposium on third level education in which it became clear that they are deeply concerned about over specialisation at undergraduate level and are coming round to the view that the thing to aim at is a broad general groundwork to which specialisms can easily be added later, different specialisms at different times if necessary. If the thinking underlying that trend becomes general, the wheel will certainly have come full cycle.

As indeed also with second level education, there is a need for closer links between the third level institutions and the world of work. A good deal has already been accomplished in this area and links have been forged between the industrial and commercial world with a number of our third level institutions. This kind of linkage is mutually beneficient; the needs of the business world become known to the institutions and have an influence on their courses, while the business world in turn can use the institutions for research and development work and sponsor the kind of developments in the institutions which would have a spin-off for the business world. In this context, I would like to pay tribute to the work of the NBST with which my Department and the HEA have established good relationships and the various schemes mounted by the NBST have been of great value to the third level education system in the field of science and technology.

A good example of co-operation between higher education institutions and industry sponsored by the NBST is the very successful development by the Dairy Science Faculty in UCC and a County Cork co-operative in the processing of cheese for export. Another project involved the NIHE in Limerick and the development there, with funding from the NBST, of an automatic power supply test system. The success of this venture led to the formation of a new company to produce and market the product. The company is now selling automatic power supply test systems in Ireland, the UK and the US.

An expanded higher education-industry links scheme sponsored by the NBST and the IDA with a current budget of £1.5 million was initiated last September and a number of joint ventures will benefit under this scheme.

There is not, perhaps, a great public awareness of the extent to which our third level institutions are in tune with developments in modern technology and are co-operating with industry in this field but this is, in fact, a very important and growing feature of the higher education scene. The National Microelectronics Centre attached to University College, Cork, is a good example of what I mean. It has twin objectives of, on the one hand, educating engineers to work in the microelectronics industry and, on the other, serving as a centralised research and development laboratory where co-operative university and industry projects can be carried out. I recall that at the opening of the centre my colleague, the Minister for Industry, pointed out that the existence of this centre was a determining factor in attracting some major electronics firms to Ireland. This is a demonstration of the most practical kind of the important role to be played by our third level institutions in the industrial development of the country.

Plassey Technological Park, attached to the National Institute for Higher Education in Limerick, is providing a major resource attractive to high level international technological investment and research. The park is operated with a flexibility which ensures that all participating bodies derive maximum benefit from a sharing of facilities and resources. Experience in other countries has indicated that the concept of a technological park alongside a major third level technological institution has been of great benefit to the institution and to the organisations sited in the park. I am confident that the Plassey development will prove equally beneficial for those involved. The Faculty of Engineering in UCD, conscious of the importance of maintaining strong links with the industrial world, has plans for the development of a university-industry centre to be sited in Belfield. I mention these developments as examples to demonstrate that our third level institutions are not academic backwaters but are playing a major role in the technological development of our society.

My Department have under consideration at present proposals from the IVEA as to how the regional technical colleges might make a greater contribution in this area, particularly in relation to the development of the regions in which they are situated. I hope shortly to introduce a more flexible system which will enable the RTCs within the limits of the available resources and without impinging on their primary function to make a greater contribution to research and development work in their regions.

The total current provision for the designated institutions of the Higher Education Authority in Vote 33 of the 1984 Estimates is £80,309,000 in addition to which a sum of the order of £1 million will be provided out of Vote 49 — the vote for increases in remuneration and pensions — for these institutions. The Department of Agriculture Vote also contains provision of over £9 million for the agriculture-related faculties of UCD and UCC. The provision in Vote 31 for the regional technical colleges is £51,569,000 and the provision for grants to the colleges of education in Vote 30 is £6,927,000. The total current provision for higher education is, therefore, in excess of £150 million. Given a total full-time student population in the present year of around 50,000 it will be seen that the current State expenditure per student is of the order of £3,000.

The level of fees charged to students varies considerably as between the different types of institutions and even within institutions depending on the course being undertaken. The general fee level in the universities now is about £800, but it is much less in the technological sector despite a very substantial increase in fees in that sector for the current academic year. I am conscious of the fact that fees have been increased in recent years by amounts well in excess of inflation, and I realise that such increases have placed a heavy burden on students and on their parents. It will be evident from the figures I have quoted above that fees still form less than a fifth of the overall cost of third-level education. In the year 1982-83 the percentage in the HEA sector was about 17 per cent, and less than that in the technological sector. The increase in fees in the current academic year and for next year will increase that percentage. The dilemma facing me as Minister for Education in developing a fees policy is the extent to which fees could be made to meet a greater proportion of the overall costs and yet be at a level which would not place an intolerable burden on students and their parents. It was these two, possibly conflicting, factors which led the Government to consider the question of a loan scheme for third level education. Decisions on this issue cannot be taken lightly, involving, as they do, questions such as the level of fees, the provision of capital, levels of interest, debt burdens on students and parents, repayment periods and several other matters of principle and practicability. The Government are not unaware of the fact that many parents are already borrowing from the banks on a personal basis in order to finance third level education for their children. I am not at present, therefore, in a position to make a definitive statement on the question of a loan scheme other than to say that it is one which is receiving the most careful consideration.

The Coalition Government have a good record in relation to student support in the context of the schemes for the provision of higher education grants and scholarships. For example, the provision in the 1984 Estimates for the higher education grants scheme is over £11 million, as compared to about £4 million before the introduction, for the academic year 1981-82, of major improvements to the scheme by the Coalition Government. Even more significant increases have taken place in the scheme for the provision of vocational education scholarships in the same period.

In 1980-81, the year before the much improved scheme of higher education grants was introduced by Deputy John Boland, when Minister for Education, there was a total of 9,852 students or 26.1 per cent of the student body in receipt of a grant or a scholarship. For the present academic year 1983-84, the numbers have grown to 16,760 or 35.6 per cent of the student body. I refer to these statistics not to make a political point but to point out that over one in three of students at third level has their fees paid for them and the vast majority of them also receive a maintenance allowance. These students are cushioned against any increase in fees. It is well to bear this fact in mind when people complain about fee increases at third level.

In regard to the provision of new or improved accommodation at third level, I pointed out in the Programme for Action in Education, that a number of projects were on hands in my Department. Work is proceeding on the second phase of development at the NIHE in Limerick and on UCD's new library in Belfield. Planning of a new Regional Technical College in Tralee is at an advanced stage and building work is due to commence in the autumn. Major developments are also in train for the colleges of technology in Bolton Street and Kevin Street, the college of marketing and design and the college of commerce, Rathmines. Consultants have been appointed and planning is proceeding on regional technical colleges in Tallaght, Blanchardstown and Dún Laoghaire. The proposals for a new school of engineering for UCD and a clinical sciences complex for TCD at the St. James site, planning for both of which is at an advanced stage, will be considered in the context of the Public Capital Programme for the years 1985-88.

The action programme draws attention to the need for the third level system to become more cost effective and to improve productivity. If we are to cater for greatly increased numbers of students at third level, we need to adopt a twin-pronged approach, to provide such additional places as we can afford and particularly to increase investment in equipment and technological hardware generally, but, secondly and no less importantly, to improve the cost effectiveness of our institutions and to spread available resources fairly over institutions and courses. I appreciate that people in the institutions can make comparisons with other countries and argue that third-level education is achieved relatively cheaply in this country, but we have not the resources of those countries and we have proportionately a far higher percentage of our population in the younger age groups. We need, therefore, to look at our institutions and to see in what way, without sacrifice of quality, we can make them more efficient and more cost effective. The action programme put forward a number of proposals in this area, and these will now be taken up by my Department with the interests involved. I have on previous occasions expressed my appreciation of the contribution which these interests made to the deliberations of the working party, and I look forward with confidence to their full co-operation in considering and implementing the various proposals made in the action programme.

The House will be aware of my intention to reactivate the question of providing legislation in regard to the structure of our Irish universities. The parent Act, The Irish Universities Act, has now been on the statute book for more than three-quarters of a century without any major changes being made in the legislation. What were in 1908 small colleges have now grown to be major institutions in their own right. The question must be asked if the NUI constituent colleges would now benefit by each being established as a university in its own right. Special consideration will have to be given to the place of the recognised colleges of the NUI that is to say the colleges of education, the Royal College of Surgeons and, in particular, St. Patrick's College, Maynooth. I propose, as soon as possible, to initiate discussions with all the interests involved with a view to evolving structures which are more appropriate to the present-day requirements of university education.

In speaking of legislation, I should refer also to my intention of amending the Vocational Education Act of 1930. This will be necessary, in any event, to deal with such mundane matters as the payment of travelling and subsistence expenses for committee members, but much more fundamental matters arise for consideration. These include the enlargement of committees to provide for teacher representation and the position of regional technical colleges. The management of the RTCs is provided through sub-committees of the VECs under section 21 of the Act. There is a body of opinion that this management structure is inappropriate for these institutions and that a structure more in line with that of other third-level institutions ought to be established. This is a matter on which no decisions have been made at this stage but it is one which, I think, merits further consideration and I look forward with interest to hearing the views of the appropriate interests on it.

The management boards of the RTCs as presently constituted are restricted in membership to 12 persons. This provides a particular problem in relation to student representation on the boards. I have stated that my aim is to have student representation on the governing boards of all third-level institutions, and any review of the 1930 Vocational Education Act will involve a resolution of the problem of student representation on the boards of RTCs. Student representation exists already in respect of the governing bodies of the NUI constituent colleges, but only by way of Ministerial nomination. A review of the university legislation, which I mentioned earlier, will deal also with the question of students being represented on the governing bodies in their own right.

In the Programme for Action in Education, I dealt at some length with another important area of third-level education, that is teacher training. I indicated that it is proposed to undertake a comprehensive review of the structure and content of the Bachelor of Education degree courses for primary teachers. The professional training of second-level teachers too will be reviewed in consultation with the appropriate interests. In a society which is constantly changing it is imperative that our schools should reflect these changes and be in a position to educate each generation of its pupils to meet the demands of modern society. It is relatively easy to make adjustments in the initial training programmes so as to produce what we might term "modern" teachers. The fact is, however, that following initial training many teachers spend more than 40 years in service. When one considers the developments that take place in all areas of life in such a period, it becomes clear that teachers must be given opportunities throughout their career of partaking in refresher courses. It is for this reason that so much emphasis is placed throughout the Programme for Action on in-service courses. There is no doubt that in the past the provision of in-service courses has been less than adequate. In-service education is, of course, quite costly, particularly if undertaken during normal school periods when replacement teaching would need to be provided. Nevertheless it is a facility which needs to be greatly improved, and it will be a major plank in my policy for teacher training.

I have discussed two major issues — the parents' council and third-level development — because time has not allowed me to develop these on previous occasions when I have spoken in this House. It is important also, however, in the interests of balance, to remind Deputies that the Programme for Action in Education sets out our priorities in all the areas of education. I have spoken before, for instance, of our making primary education the major priority for new investment, with pupils who suffer educational disadvantage being the major target for extra help.

The crucial area of curricular reform at both primary and post-primary levels is under way, principally being addressed in the work of the Curriculum and Examinations Board

The increases in capitation grant at primary level this year were the highest ever granted in a single year and are a very real expression of our commitment to this sector. The increases in grants to secondary schools also reflect our recognition of their financial needs.

Much work is going on in implementing the many proposals in the action programme. I expect to be in a position to give a progress report on this in the near future.

In the earlier part of my speech, I outlined the main details of the Estimates for 1984. The gross provision for the education services is now approaching the £1,000 million mark. The increase in the non-capital provision in the group of Votes for education is 9.75 per cent compared with 1983 while inflation is expected to be less than 9 per cent. This is a measure of the commitment of the Government to the provision of the best possible education for our young people.

The percentage of GNP which this country devotes to education is the second highest of the EEC countries. It is estimated that 6.7 per cent of GNP was spent on education in 1983 compared with 5.7 per cent in 1978. The amount of GNP spent on education is the objective criterion on which to judge the performance and the commitment of a Government. By any standards, the performance of my Government ranks high.

In evaluating the capital budget for education, it is necessary to remind ourselves that, because of our burgeoning population, we as a community spend a significantly large proportion of our total education budget on school building and equipment. This is an aspect of our financial structure that is ignored. The facts are that, compared with other EEC countries, we devote a far greater percentage of our financial resources to capital spending. In 1978, for instance, our capital expenditure as a percentage of current expenditure on education was 15 per cent compared with a European average of 8.9 per cent. The United Kingdom spent 6.9 per cent on capital projects. When comparing with other countries expenditure on current services many people conveniently overlook the fact, first, that we have to have a large capital budget because of our growing school population and, secondly, that most other EEC countries have a much higher income per capita.

I have spent some time today discussing the spending of £983 million. Where has this money come from? It has come from the men and women at work in this country who are paying extremely high rates of tax, whose disposable income is much smaller than it should be. Whether or not they have children in the education system, they massively support it. They pour money into the school experience of each child or young person. It is my job as Minister to direct the spending of that vast amount of money so that the children and young people will be the beneficiaries. A huge amount of this money pays teachers' salaries; a much smaller amount goes to provide the physical facilities and equipment in which those children and young people are educated. Sheer growth of numbers alone forces an increase in spending on education every year, in salaries of new teachers and new buildings. Any increase on top of this means, quite simply, a further burden on the taxpayer - either by increased taxation or further debt payments: the alternative to this increased taxation is to find the additional funds from some other area of education or elsewhere.

Anybody from the opposite side of the House, therefore, who intends to call for more this and more that, increased facilities here or more teachers there, should bear in mind that it is no longer credible in 1984 to behave as if there was no tomorrow. I suggest that this Estimates debate could be conducted in a more realistic manner if suggestions for increased spending were accompanied by a clear statement of where the resources will come from. It is no use sidestepping the issue by protesting that this is the job of Government. Every Member of this House is well aware of the financial situation and the taxpayers' difficulties. It is opportunistic to pretend otherwise. The challenge is to treat education, the general public and, indeed this House, as seriously as they deserve.

I commend the Estimates to the House.

It is with much pleasure that I reply to the Estimate for the very important Department of Education. I should like to refer first to something the Minister said towards the end of her speech because I consider her remarks to be in the form of a sermon. Sermons have their place, and that usually is in churches. I decry very much the tone of the Minister's remarks. She said:

Anybody from the opposite side of the House, therefore, who intends to call for more this and more that, increased facilities here or more teachers there, should bear in mind that it is no longer credible in 1984 to behave as if there was no tomorrow.

The Minister continued:

It is opportunistic to pretend otherwise. The challenge is to treat education, the general public and, indeed, this House as seriously as they deserve.

I take that as a reflection first on myself in my portfolio as Opposition spokesman on education, on my years in education, my standing and my record in that respect, and also on the record of Fianna Fáil in what they have given to education down through the years. I regard my role as seriously as anyone else regards his or her role in public life.

Sermonising does not sit well on anyone, least of all on one who should be setting a headline. I am well able to manage my own affairs and to see to the duties and responsibilities that have been vested in me. My record can stand up to any scrutiny, as can any remarks I make in relation to education.

Lest the Minister should think that in "calling for this or that" I am dealing in fantasy, I would recommend to her, to the Government and to the House the proposals contained in the report of the National Planning Board in respect of the years 1984 to 1987. The Board say — recommendation 4 — that they agree with the general thrust of the recommendation in the Programme for Action and recommend that because of the demographic pressures on the education system there should be no cutback in overall public expenditure in this area in the years to 1987. I am not dealing with fantasy or speaking irresponsibly. That board was set up by the Taoiseach. In early December I spoke on a similar debate and said that because of the increased consumer demand for education — by that I meant the increased numbers of young people entering the system — we could not afford to cut back in real terms on either current or capital spending.

The statistic that we have the second highest GNP spending on education in Europe should have been taken in conjunction with the fact that we have by far the greatest number of young people in the educational system. Many of the points which were put forward are selective and do not show the whole picture. That is probably the prerogative of Ministers but when it is coupled with sermonising it jars and there is something dishonest about it. It would have been more honest if the Minister said that we had the second highest GNP spending on education and then said that we had by far the greatest number of young people in the educational system and gave the figures for those attending primary, second and third levels as a proportion of the total population. She should then have compared that with other European countries. I do not make this point to be cantankerous but just to put the record straight.

The Coalition provision for capital and current spending is shortsighted and shabby. I might not agree with all the recommendations made by the board but I agree with that one on education.

In some instances services have decreased, in others they have remained static or diminished. The capital programmes are seriously affected. I applaud the Minister and the Department for the increases they have granted. The increases were shown in large print and were expanded on by the Minister. When it came to the decreases and cutbacks we were given a statement of what was spent and that was all. I take it as my right to give the other side of the picture. I would be failing in my duty if I did not do so. The most severely affected areas are vocational and technological, the provision of equipment and the allocation of guidance, remedial and specialist teachers. There has been an outright attack on third-level institutes.

I should like to refer to a disturbing pattern of Ministerial statements which seem to give an air of hope and optimism. I agree with optimism and hope but we should not raise people's expectations too high. The presentation of the action plan for education and the way it was heralded in led many people to believe that all the educational ills would be righted. That is not so. I have spent many years in education. In the past five months many people told me that they felt this was a plan for action and not a list of objectives. Many of the plans were not costed nor was it stated when they would be implemented. Any teacher could have listed many of the ills in the educational system. It is up to the Government to ensure that those ills are corrected and that shortfalls are made up.

The Curriculum Development Board was launched with high hopes. I am totally committed to it. If I was made Minister I would encourage my party to give the utmost support to the board and give them the necessary backing to allow them continue their work. However, if it does not have the goodwill of practising teachers it will be a non-event. I know that there is goodwill towards the board. I ask the Minister not to raise expectations or advance the cause without committing the resources. The Minister may ask where she will get the resources but I say that is her job. There should be more teachers on the main committee and sub-committees of the board.

I have met young people who say that there is no longer an intermediate certificate examination. I do not blame the Minister for that kind of heady optimism. I was in a Dublin school recently and spoke to young students in second year. They said they would not be doing the intermediate certificate, there were not set timetables, there would be different teachers and subjects. I said I was all for change. They said that the Minister, Mrs. Hussey, had told them all about it. I asked if she had visited them and they said: "no, we read it in the papers". The response to the board from members of the Opposition, teachers and students was one of relief and joy that it had got off the ground, although on an ad hoc basis at first. Do not lead the people to believe that changes will be made but show the rate of progress which can be made and when the first target will be achieved. Then you move on from that. It is unkind and unjust to lead people to believe that changes will be made when that cannot happen.

Over the past 18 months the Minister quite rightly has been speaking about the need for girls and young women to take their proper place in society, but to do this they must be able to take certain subjects at second level. The all-party Committee on Women's Rights have spent 12 months investigating education and have come up with certain proposals. I do not want to pre-empt the interim report because the chairman, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, will be making a report to the Dáil very soon. All our findings indicate that the schools are not preparing girls to take their proper role in industry, in public life, or other walks of life. The subjects which would best equip them to go into management or to take up scientific or technological positions are not available in the schools because the principals must give priority to the hard core subjects. Subjects such as music, art, continental languages, apart from French, technological subjects, science and so on, will be curtailed because of the Government's pupil teacher ratio policy.

It is fine to stand up and make a speech and to lead people to believe that now is the time for girls to take their place in society and for young women to study certain subjects, but the reality is that girls cannot take carpentry, woodwork, technical drawing, chemistry, higher mathematics and those other subjects. The teachers are not available because the principal has to make very hard choices. No amount of window dressing or subscribing to equality can hide that practical fact.

I speak as a current member of a vocational education committee. Many members of such committees are confused and worried about the circular letters and guidelines issued on teacher allocations. Some of them are confused as to whether the allocations they got refer to the special arrangement they have with teachers who are servicing other second level schools in their areas. There has been a cutback in real terms in teacher allocations to vocational schools as evidenced in the correspondence and circular letters which were read out at VEC meetings. This will have a very adverse effect on vocational education in general because this is the type of schooling where these subjects are more practically expressed. I ask the Minister to bear this in mind. Perhaps she would ensure that the lines would be more firmly drawn and that the teacher allocation could at least remain at last year's level.

I was at the INTO and ASTI conferences in Galway last Easter but I was not there the morning the Minister made her speech. She said in her statement: "My Department is pressing ahead with school building provision as a matter of urgency and it is my intention that this effort will be maintained." Regrettably, however, this is not supported by the Estimates which have been laid before this House. The provision for national school buildings, equipment and furnishings at £26.75 million is a reduction of 6 per cent on the 1983 outturn. The real extent of the slow-down in the rate of modernisation of our primary schools and the replacement of some of the nineteenth century schools is apparent when one compares the current estimates for national school buildings, equipment and furnishings of £26.75 million with the actual amount spent in 1981 of £30 million. These are the figures to which I referred earlier but which were not spelled out in the Minister's speech.

The position with regard to capital expenditure on schools is even bleaker in the post-primary education area where there is a cut from £45 million to £37.6 million or a reduction of 16 per cent. This is particularly heavy in the case of vocational schools, whose capital expenditure allocation has been cut by one-third from £15.6 million to £10.5 million, and is also severe in respect of secondary schools where the capital allocation is cut from £15.3 million to £12.7 million.

The Minister has held the increase in the total vote for post-primary education to 5 per cent but this hides a very disturbing trend. For instance, the Estimates show an increase in running costs for schools under the direct control of the Department, ranging from 12 per cent to 16 per cent, or an average of 10 per cent above the general level of increases. This has been partly compensated for by the reduction of 12 per cent in the Estimates for the training of secondary and vocational teachers and a reduction of 16 per cent in the proposed capital expenditure on post-primary schools.

The reduction in the capital investment in our school buildings is also reflected in the allocation in the higher education Vote, which has been reduced from £17 million in 1982 to £14.5 million in 1983 to £14 million in 1984. Higher education generally seems to be losing out very much in the total education sector. The total Vote for higher education in 1981 was £84 million. In three years this has been increased by only £12 million to £96 million, despite a 50 per cent increase in the cost of living in the meantime.

It is difficult to comprehend a reduction in the non-capital grant and aid to University College, Dublin, and University College, Galway. Either they enjoy super-efficient management or can we expect a substantial hike in fees once again? Does the Minister seriously expect anybody to believe that the day-to-day running of higher education colleges, which cost £79.3 million in 1983, will cost only £80.3 million in 1984?

I want to speak briefly about the student loan scheme to which the Minister and I frequently refer — she proposing and I opposing. I make my opposition on the basis of the present economic climate. If we were living in more favourable economic times where there would be a certainty, or a near certainty, of jobs when a graduate leaves college, then a student loan scheme would have much to recommend it. I am thinking of a scheme which was operated by the Department of Education many years ago. An amount was deducted from the students salaries when they took up positions as national teachers to repay the money which had been advanced to them by way of student loans to enable them to continue their studies. In better economic times it would be quite a fair system, because the person concerned would be going straight into a job and so be able to repay the grant. However, at present there is no certainty of a job and a mortgage would immediately be placed around a young person's neck which would have to be repaid at some time, even on deferred conditions. A deferral might mean that an extra mortgage would come on top of a house mortgage or one connected with starting a family. In the nature of events, thankfully, that is what happens with young people.

I am glad that the Minister has apparently shelved the student loan scheme for the moment. The language used is somewhat ambiguous because we read at one stage that it is going ahead and then that it is not. One of the most constant queries to me when going around third level colleges or second level schools and meeting parents is, "Will there be a student loan scheme or not?" Obviously, it will not be put into operation in 1984, but the Minister will make no definite statement yet. My advice to the Minister and her departmental officials would be that unless the economic climate were to change radically for the better — and unfortunately we know that it will not within the short term — a student loan scheme is not a realistic proposition. Also, it would discriminate against girls because of perhaps selectivity of lending agencies in the type of student to whom the loan would be allocated. They might think, wrongly, that young men would be better bets for a long-term job. I should not like a lending agency or institution to have the power to select what course a student might take. That would be wrong from an educational point of view. I think this scheme should not be introduced at all.

I refer now to the student grant scheme in relation to higher education, as it appertains to local authorities, scholarships and the vocational education committees. Parents wonder about a possible raising of the eligibility level and whether the level of grant aid will be increased. The Minister, quite rightly, pointed out that her predecessor, Deputy Boland had introduced a hefty raise in 1981. We are now in 1984 and another Government have intervened, but it is three years since there has been a rise in either the grant itself, or in eligibility levels. This is keeping more young people from eligibility under that scheme. I ask the Minister to give this matter her very urgent attention.

I understand that the county councils, including my own, have not yet received notification of their grants for this coming season. Will the Minister indicate when she will be giving this notification to the local authorities and also details of the scheme for higher education grants and scholarships and income eligibility levels for 1984? It is not quite fair to parents to leave them in doubt. We are now at the end of May and leaving certificate examinations will be taking place. Parents will be making plans for the autumn, budgeting and trying to work out whether they will be able to let their children commence or continue in third level education.

The Minister, quite rightly, has paid tribute to parents. They take the education of their children extremely seriously and spend much time and effort in that respect because of their great belief in education. This is an historic thing with us, going back through the centuries from the time of the saints and scholars travelling to Europe spreading the Gospel, through the times of oppression and famine when we kept the Irish colleges going on the Continent where our young people were educated. This could not have come about if parents had not realised the value of education for their children.

The parents are worried at present because education is costly. The Minister has mentioned how much it costs to put a child through each level of education, but the parents contribute in their taxes to the Estimate for Education before us today. It is not some single beneficiary who is putting in money — everybody in the land, in paying taxes, is contributing. Nobody begrudges money for education. If the Minister asks where she is to get the money, I would say—

More taxation?

——it is the job of the Minister to see that there is an adequate provision for education.

Would the Deputy tell me how?

The Minister spoke at length and I did not interrupt.

On a point of order——

The Minister spoke for a full hour and I did not interrupt her. I expect the same courtesy in return.

It is the people of the land who, through taxation, are making this input into education. Nobody begrudges this, but the people have rights.

The Minister spoke in general, as distinct from giving statistics, in her discussion on education and this is always the most interesting part. She referred to the role of parents and her hopes for them and, in particular, of her efforts and hopes for the setting up of a parents' council. In my Ard-Fheis speech in March, which was published, I said that our party were committed to the setting up of such a council. It was the first time that I had seen this in print. The role of parents in education has been greatly under-valued and I commend the Minister for her very admirable expressions towards the more formal recognition of parental role in education. This is enshrined in our Constitution, but from time to time we merely give it lip service.

My years in the education scene have led me to believe that it is of great value that parents' wishes and opinions be taken into account. A teacher might come across a child in the classroom who is termed "difficult", but there is not really such a child. The teacher, being worried about how to cope, might notify the parents and the mother or father, or perhaps both, might call to see the teacher. Light is then thrown on the situation which enables the teacher to look at the child and his or her difficulties with fresh understanding. There may be some environmental or family problems preventing that child from getting the optimum benefit out of education. It is the parents' child and they are entitled to know how he or she is getting on and how the parents can help the teachers. This should be a complementary role.

The Minister will quite shortly have an opportunity to do something on these lines because this autumn elections for primary school boards of management will take place. A very good suggestion would be to emphasise this by advertisements in the national newspapers, alerting parents to these elections. This would involve them in a more democratic process of election. I know that selection is left to each individual school and some parishes conduct a very full process of election, having returning officers and ballot boxes. The Department could play a role here in showing their interest in parental involvement, by organising a national awareness programme at national school level of the role of parents who could be put forward as representatives for boards of management. This suggestion bears merit.

The Minister spoke about the third level industry link. We commend all that is happening in that regard. I would like to speak about the school-industry link at second level. It was set up some years ago in a formal way by the Department of Education and the Department of Labour. I was on one of the pilot committees set up in the Athlone region by the National Manpower Service and the teachers. This was very successful. I learned in a reply to a question I asked recently that there is to be a report on this national survey about the efficacy of the school-industry link at second level. Athlone is an industrial town with an industrial tradition but parents were reluctant to see their children in industrial roles. They were reluctant to see their boys or girls going into industry. To some of them industry was a dirty word and they were looking towards civil service jobs, teaching jobs and all the other jobs like that which are no longer available. We must be realistic about that.

We found this very effective in heightening the awareness of parents and young people of the potential jobs which would be available in industry for young people even getting in at the ground floor and the opportunities which would be available to them to advance later on. We found the industries of the region very co-operative and, without any prodding, they came together and formed themselves into an ad hoc group of the major industrialists in the region. They came to the schools and the schools went to the industries. We had seminars also. This was very worthwhile and I look forward to the results of it. I hope that can be maintained in a formalised way. This could be recommended to the Curriculum and Examinations Development Board because they could be incorporated into some of the recommendations.

With regard to the Minister's statement about RTC's and their role I would like to deal with the role of the boards of management of regional technical colleges. Changes are envisaged in the make-up of the management boards of the RTC's. We are not given the reason behind the wish to see changes in their make-up. I am a bit at sea by not having seen the Minister's proposals. From my experience of the existing boards of management I believe they have served the colleges very well. They have been drawn from Chambers of Commerce, the VEC and they represent various sectional interests within the VEC. If it is a case of de-politicising the make-up of the boards of management that is not a very good idea.

Since the VEC's were set up they have been representative of the people and this has made them very effective. The RTC's are representative of the people in a political, a business and a commercial sense. The Minister should look at the record of the men and women who have served on those boards of management. She should look at their record of attendance and their input into the meetings and see what they have given in a voluntary way for many years. I remember interviews going on from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. in the Athlone RTC. A person could be there all day in a purely voluntary capacity as chairman of the board of management. They fulfil a great role. I am wary of changes in their make-up, particularly if it is for the facade of de-politicising. VEC's have been run very well over the years and fulfilled their functions. I believe the RTC's have done the same through their management boards. Their make-up should not be lightly changed.

I agree with the amendment of the Vocational Education Act, which will allow RTC's to go into research and development. I was in Tralee recently — I have heard this in Athlone constantly — and I was told that the RTC's under the VEC Act cannot go into research and development. They regard their role as being that of research and development particularly if they are to serve the needs of a region and must keep pace with the growth of that region or the change of emphasis of industries within a region from traditional type textile industries to plastics or to whatever field of endeavour is the coming thing in that particular area. It is important that the RTC's are allowed engage in research and development. The present Act does not allow them to do so. I hope, in the general amendment of this Act, that the role of RTC's with regard to research and development is looked at.

I would like to speak about student participation on the boards of management. I believe the Minister's statement about democracy and student representation on the boards of management. I wish she had spoken to her party members on the VEC, of which I am a member. When I brought up the matter last year, it was heavily defeated by a combination of Fine Gael and Labour councillors. They later had a change of heart due, I hope, to some pressure from me and agreed to my proposal that we allow student representatives to at least attend meetings and later on, hopefully, become members. I believe that student representatives on boards of management of RTC's as well as on other third levels have a great role to play and should be allowed their very natural expression.

I commend the Minister's statement that she is looking into the Universities Act and the possible amendment of this legislation which has been so long in operation. It has served the country very well since it was initiated but in many instances it is not relevant now because of the change of circumstances. The whole role of some of the colleges has changed and this Act needs to be amended.

The Minister said that she hoped there would be general involvement by people, especially parents. She praised their commitment to the action plan and their hope to contribute further in it. I go along with much of what she says in that respect. Debate is now beginning about the academic slant vis-á-vis the technological area. I am very aware that there will be many technological changes, as well as changes in the structures of society. Everything will be in a constant state of flux.

I would enter another caveat in that if we become too technologically minded we will be making a grievous mistake. A proper academic education will be a bulwark later in life, a resource upon which a person will be able to draw. I refer to the kind of education which gives a proper grounding in the basics and in history, poetry, literature and so on. When a student is going through the school system these matters may not seem so important, but I have found in discussions with former pupils that these things have stood to them later on. While we must advance in the field of technology, it must not be at the expense of a general education. Some people might call it an academic or liberal arts education. We must not throw out the baby with the bath water and run after everything that is new without taking account of a person's real needs and powers of receptivity in relation to our culture, traditions and history. If we forget all that we will not provide a real education for young people.

In their Proposals For Plan 1984-87 the National Planning Board quote from The Programme for Action in Education as follows:

Priority in financial support will be given to those academic developments, either by way of new courses or extensions to existing courses, which are geared to the developments in modern society and thus ensure that our graduates are kept abreast of rapidly changing technology and can compete with graduates of other countries.

The board goes on to state:

The Board welcome these statements, but would stress the importance of balance in third level education between its contribution to economic growth and its contribution to cultural and social development for producing a well-educated population.

It is very nice to see in print something one has been saying. More than ever the balance must be maintained. We must gear for jobs but also for uncertainty and unemployment. People must be mobile in regard to employment. A broad education gives a person receptivity to ideas and enables him or her to cope with the complexities of life.

I am glad to have had the opportunity to speak on this most important Estimate. Education is the most important aspect of life. It is the most important Department to which a Minister could be appointed. I have taken my duties very seriously since I was appointed. I do not go out to lecture anybody; neither do I receive well lectures given to me.

Notice taken that 20 Members not present: House counted and 20 Members being present,

I thank the Deputy opposite for ensuring a large gathering. I am not normally accustomed to such an honour. Listening to Deputy O'Rourke I thought we had reached the stage for which many commentators on education have been yearning where we could provide everything we wished. She called for the appointment of more teachers in order to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, higher grants, more capital allocations but not student loans. I expected her to indicate how she proposed to finance these proposals, but I was very disappointed when she said it was up to the Minister to find the money. We do not do ourselves any great service by merely hiving the responsibility away to some other area and by not being prepared to face the reality that if we are to improve standards and increase the scope and extent of services we must say exactly how we will pay for it. I would ask everybody to give serious thought to qualifying their statements rather than merely throwing out the kind of thing which sounds good on public platforms at election times. I reckon that the Deputy's proposals would cost between £150 million and £200 million. She did not say by what means she proposed to raise that money, whether by way of taxation or direct charges. It was not to be done by way of student loans. Those involved in education would be ill-advised to take such calls seriously.

This Estimate is important because it affects the lives of a great many people. We have a great mass of young people whom most of us regard as our greatest asset and we like to spend time talking about the importance of our investment and how we can realise it. Every household in the country is affected by how we run our education budget and the effect that can have on our general level of taxation.

The increase this year in the provision for pay and pensions represents 96 per cent of the total increase in the Estimate. That is something we should ponder on for a moment when we talk about extending services. I have been listening to the discussions in the various teacher conferences. Of course I agree they are fully entitled to put their points of view, which they do very forcefully, but at the same time they should accept, when they speak about hundreds of teachers being unemployed — there are, because the system seems to generate more teachers than the market can provide for — the reference in the Minister's speech today, as we must accept it, that teachers have to be paid but at the same time the bulk of the increased provision this year goes on teachers' pay and pensions.

I would draw attention to the increased number of primary school teachers for which provision has been made this year. The increase is 200. Last year it was 150. This has been causing some concern, particularly from the point of view of large class numbers. Though the Minister can only move at a certain speed because of financial considerations, this will require careful attention in the next few years to ensure that our primary pupils will get reasonable attention and that their efficient training will be continued.

When educational matters are being considered there always has been talk and debate about the merits of the vocational education system and the secondary schools. In the last number of years, with large numbers unemployed and with little prospects of getting employment in the public service, many of our young people coming out of colleges with BAs and H. Dips., seek teaching posts which are not there and for which the State, in any case, is not able to pay. Therefore, there is greater need than ever to emphasise practical subjects. Perhaps I am speaking in favour of the vocational education system but there is no sense in educating people to a high degree and letting them out on the job market where there is nothing for them at that level of education. For that reason it is essential to ensure that we will prepare as well as we can our student population so that they will be able to fend for themselves. In the past one could expect that young people coming out of the secondary school system could expect to get jobs in the public service. It was a relatively safe bet, but in recent times it is not so easy and it will not be easy — I refer to Deputies across — unless we find some easy way to finance pay for the jobs that we provide in the public service.

What is the Deputy referring to me for?

I am referring to the Deputy's references. It is important to realise that if we increase the number of jobs we will have to pay for them. The Opposition did not tell us how such requirements might be met so it is important to refer to this in passing. If we concentrate on ensuring that young people will be educated to be self-sufficient so that they will not have to rely on the system to provide them with jobs——

The Deputy is contradicting himself.

I have not contradicted myself, I did not interrupt Deputy O'Rourke.

I thought she did not like interruptions.

The Minister interrupted me. Deputy Durkan said earlier that children are to be educated but now he has said they are not to be educated.

That is the Deputy's interpretation but what I will say might elucidate it for her. If she interrupted less she might be able to hear it.

I listened very carefully.

We have a duty to indicate to young people what their prospects will be when they leave the secondary school system. Having regard to our experience in the last three or four years we should be able to tell them what their prospects will be in the practical and academic spheres. The career guidance system should have greater regard for what will be available for students at the end of secondary school education. The people opposite choose to interpret that as a call not to educate them. That is untrue.

We are delighted to be able to teach you in time.

When the Deputy's turn comes to speak I will not interrupt. If he does not choose to listen I cannot force him to. If we have regard to what has been happening in the last four or five years we should be able to give some indication to our young population of their prospects. We should be realistic and not build castles in the air for them, not to increase their expectations and later to dash their hopes. The people opposite are nodding their heads but they should remember before they nod in assent that they have done more to dash the hopes of young people than any other group in the country in the past ten years.

Another sermon from the mount.

I do not think that remark deserves a response. We need to tell the young people the realities of the situation and also the opportunities that exist. There is no use educating them for the technological arena or for the academic life unless opportunities exist or unless we have in mind ways and means to create such opportunities. Our experience in the past five or six years has not shown us that there are enough opportunities in either area. Greater emphasis must be placed on educating young people to go out into the world and, so far as possible, to provide jobs for themselves rather than encouraging them to think they will be provided with jobs in services that must be paid for by the taxpayer.

Nowdays there is a common theory that we should educate young people for leisure and for unemployment. That kind of theory needs qualification. We will not give young people much hope if we tell them that they are just being educated for leisure or for unemployment. The right balance must be found. They must be given sufficient knowledge to survive in a situation where there may not always be jobs available. On the other hand, if they are led to believe that they face total and absolute unemployment that will have the unfortunate effect of killing their spirit and initiative and it will reduce them to total dependence on the system. It is important that we point out to them that job opportunities will not exist to the same extent as in the past. We have to do our utmost to improve the situation, but we should not go overboard to the extent that these young people will think they are condemned to everlasting unemployment.

I welcome the provision in the Estimate in respect of areas relating to high technology. Those areas offer great scope for development, because this country seems to have come of age at the right time in respect of this development. We should ensure that everything is done to encourage students to go into those areas. It can be said that high technology reduces jobs, but it can improve productivity and output and that, in turn, will create the need for further jobs in the services area.

I wish to refer to two matters that relate to my constituency: I am sure I will be forgiven if I am a little parochial in this instance. For a number of years there have been discussions in County Kildare with regard to setting up a regional technical college. This county has a big population that is expanding quickly and it would be no harm to give some consideration to that proposal. Obviously the market is there. There are other colleges in the adjoining counties but not in that area. I hope that in time the Minister will be able to do something about this matter, notwithstanding her other commitments.

I live in the precincts of the university at Maynooth, County Kildare. Such an institution requires the substantial recreational facilities which exist in Belfield and in other places. When the provision of further facilities is being considered, which must be done at some stage in the not-too-distant future, I ask that there be co-operation between the various bodies, including the Department of Education and the Higher Education Authority. I know co-operation will be readily forthcoming from the college authorities and from local interest groups who are most anxious to become involved in assisting financially with regard to the provision of recreational facilities in a modern university. By this I mean provision for track and field events, swimming facilities and so on which are normally provided in a university. The Higher Education Authority have a primary role in these matters, but the Minister might consider inviting the other interest groups into discussions with that authority. From my knowledge of the area I know there will be a high degree of co-operation with regard to financial assistance.

Where will the money come from?

The Minister spoke about the importance of the role of parents in education generally, and that is something all of us should welcome. In the past few years the increased interest of parents and their growing role in the educational system has been obvious. It has been of considerable help and is appreciated by the teachers. The more co-operation and involvement there is from the parents the more beneficial will be the system from the point of view of parents and students. Parents have taken the initiative in many areas, and their role is increasing in extent and importance.

My final point deals with school library services. I am a member of a local authority, and each year at estimate time we find ourselves short of funds. The county library services do a very good job in providing a service for schools. In recent times the allocation has not been sufficient, with the result that, taking other pressing requirements into account, local authorities have found themselves unable to give as they would like to that area. It would be very sad if that service was downgraded as it is very important and is held in high regard by the local authorities who operate it. Charges have been introduced in libraries in some counties but I am not suggesting that that should be done in relation to schools. I ask the Minister to at least give favourable consideration in future years to improving the allocation to local authorities in respect of school library services. No doubt, Deputy O'Rourke wants to know where I would get the money, but that is the only suggestion I have made so far which I did not qualify. Deputy O'Rourke set a very high standard by indicating where the money would come from and she expected the same from me. I, like Deputy O'Rourke, will have to leave that to the Minister.

De bharr nach bhfuil mórán ama againn chun an díospóireacht tábhachtach seo a bheith againn ar mheastachán an Roinn Oideachais, agus de bharr go bhfuil roinnt dár gcairde go dteastaíonn uathu cur chuige, tá brón orm go gcaithfimid bheith chomh gairid agus is féidir linn i rith na díospóireachta seo.

To the many students already sitting their exams and those who are about to commence them I wish each and every one of them well, in particular for the pressures they are under, not merely those of the be all and end all certificates, allegedly, that they will get at the end of their examinations if they are successful but also the pressures they are under from living which are bearing heavily on them. More importantly, they are under pressure as to where they are going and what future they have if they attain standards in their examinations, because the prospect of employment is very dismal. It must be very troubling mentally for students, and it is regrettable that in the long Estimate speech made by the Minister no hope is being held out to students at school, much less to those who have left school and who are numbered among the 200,000 unemployed. I contend that there are many more unemployed who are not included in that figure because many of them are not qualified to be included in the statistics for various reasons. I say to students to do the best they can and be satisfied with that whatever the outcome.

The modern world is being transformed by the application of science and technology. This applies to the production of goods and services in the home and the workplace, and new systems are changing every aspect of the way we live. Like young people, I am also concerned at the lack of encouragement or incentive to them from the Government, the Minister and the Department of Education. I hope to be positive in giving a ray of hope to these people. Our ambition must be to take a leading place in the emerging world. We are ideally equipped to do so and to become a high technology and high income economy. We have a young, educated, intelligent and, most of all, adaptable population. We have a growing community of highly qualified scientific and high technology people who have ideas, initiative and enthusiasm, and it would be a pity if we and the Government did not recognise that. The Government should use the skills and talents of those people who have them brought more directly to bear on the management of our affairs and our economy.

I hope that the next Fianna Fáil Government, agus más maith is mithead, is not too far away and that they will appoint a Minister for Science and Technology with specific responsibility for this area to co-ordinate the efforts of those involved and to ensure that the work is directed to our particular needs. The same Minister would have responsibility for the National Board of Science and Technology with a mandate to make it the key agency in directing the economy into the new high technology era.

If we are to give hope to our young people we must specialise in growth industries, not just in the more sophisticated production of existing products but in the development of new ones. We must concentrate on agricultural food processing, marine developments and mariculture, which are energy related industries, micro-electronics, information and biotechnology, medical and chemical products and new products based on our own natural resources. We should also develop resources which are not natural with the purpose of providing for our young people. This will require a new concept of national economic management, taking clear and precise decisions about the areas in which we are going to specialise. We must then mobilise all our resources, adapt our educational and training programmes, secure the full co-operation of the trade unions, invest heavily in the right research and development and, in particular, harness the skills and the expertise of our scientific and technological community. I contend that serious consideration should be given to the suggestions I have made.

I should like to deal now with the very important matter of schools and school buildings. Our spokesperson, Deputy O'Rourke, said that the provision for national schools, equipment and furnishings of £26.750 million is a reduction of 6 per cent. Many other Deputies wish to speak on this Estimate. Because of the time constraints it would be very foolish of me to be repetitive. There has been a lack of progress by the Department in carrying out capital programmes for building schools and providing extensions, many of which have been planned and designed over a number of years. That is not be be wondered at, when the figures outlined today show a drastic reduction in the amount of money available for these capital projects. The Ministers responsible have had representations from Deputies from Cape Clear to Malin and from Ireland's Eye to Aran Island about extensions to schools, new schools and the replacement of inadequate buildings. This work has been retarded over the past year and a half.

In my own constituency how long more will we have to wait for an extension to Dripsey national school? What about Clogheen new school? We are celebrating the centenary of the building of the old school this year, coincidentally with the GAA.

We have been hearing about these schools for some time.

For a long time.

The rate of progress in these developments in the constituency of Cork North-Central has been retarded. Every excuse is given, but there are no physical operations on the ground. How long more will we have to wait for a block upon a block for the Blarney boys' national school? In Knocknahgeeny where we have a growing population we need an extension to the boys' school. The dithering goes on and it is passed from John to Mick to Harry, but building on the extension has not yet begun.

Recently the Government announced the principal proposals they extracted from the task force in the Cork area. Deputies know how long we waited for action to be taken by the Government on the report of the task force. I do not know why the report was kept secret. One of the proposals to emanate from the Government as a result of the task force report was in regard to an extension to the Farranree school which the Minister knows well. It was announced to some of the Deputies in Cork North-Central in the middle of March. The extension to the North Presentation School in Farranree was hailed as something wonderful for Cork.

How much longer must we wait before work on Brooklodge first and second level schools begins? The Minister and the Department must be aware that it has been established that there will be no further intake of pupils into the Ballincollig community school in 1984 because of the need for an extension or a new school. Mayfield school is full to capacity. The only suggestion made by the Ministers was that the children from Mayfield, which is in the suburbs of Cork city, should travel to various other schools in the city because there is no room for them in their local school.

I want to condemn without reservation the total lack of progress by the Ministers concerned in the provision of capital investment which would create a number of jobs in the Cork area where they are so badly needed. All these plans have been with the Department for a considerable time. The excuses given are unacceptable to me. I appeal to the Ministers to encourage whoever is holding up these developments to get on with the job. We do not need the report of a task force for that. We are all aware of the need.

Gaeilge is a subject which is very dear to many of us. I wish to express my concern to the Minister based on recent information which I acquired. More than one-third of the students either failed or did not bother to take Irish in the group, leaving and intermediate certificate examinations last year. I have to question the relevance of any examination which 30 per cent of students did not take and 40 per cent of those who took it failed. This denotes a decline in interest in the subject in recent years.

In 1973 only 2 per cent of leaving certificate students did not take the Irish language in the examination. Last year the figure had jumped to 9.52 per cent. In the same period the failure rate jumped from 5.3 per cent to 23.4 per cent. In the same period the number who failed the intermediate test in Irish more than doubled from 11.6 per cent to 26.24 per cent, while the number who failed in the group certificate rose from 25 per cent to 40 per cent.

These statistics indicate that attitudes towards the use of our native language will have to be changed and more encouragement will have to be given to students. It is regrettable that this trend should be emerging and that we appear to be losing our badge of identity. The badge of identity of any nation is surely its language. I appeal to the Minister to encourage — I am not suggesting for a moment that we should brú síos a scoranach — the learning and the use of Irish. I should like to make a few suggestions. Ba cheart ar dtús feabhas a chur air thré anáil agus cáilíochtaí múinteoirí ionas go dtuigfidís cúrsaí an dá theanga. Nílim ag iarraidh tosaíocht a thabhairt don Ghaeilge thar aon teanga eile ach ar a laghad bimís dhá-theangach. Tá sé an-deacair do pháistí sna Gaeltachtaí ina bhfuil leabhair acu agus nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge sna leabhair sin oiriúnach don cheantar, cuir i gcás na páistí i dTír Chonaill, an Mhumhain agus Connacht. Ba chóir go mbeadh gach rud curtha dos na daltaí seo i nGaeilge a gceantair agus go mbeadh sé soiléir dóibh sna téacsleabhair.

Maidir le cláracha oideachasúla radio agus teilifíse nach bhfuil sé in am dúinn iarracht a dhéanamh ar níos mó cláracha a bheith le feiceáil agus le cloisteáil ar Radio Teilifís Éireann chun an sprid a mhúscailt chun an Ghaeilge a choimeád beo.

Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh i bhfad níos mó idirbheartaíocht idir an Ghaeltacht agus na scoileanna lan-Ghaelacha. Agus ag tagairt do na scoileanna lán-Ghaelacha molaim Bord na Gaeilge agus na daoine ar fud na tíre atá ag iarraidh na scoileanna seo a bhunú. Tá cuid acu i mo cheantar féin agus le cúnamh Dé beidh tuilleadh dóibh ann. Molaim na tuismitheoirí agus na daoine go bhfuil aon chúnamh tugtha acu. Tá súil agam go mbeidh torthaí na scoileanna seo le feiceáil. Molaim go n-úsáidfí an Ghaeilge i ngach scoil i leith rudaí simplí cosúil le leagan Ghaelach a ainmneacha agus sloinnte agus go gcinnteofaí go mbeidh gnáth chaint an lae trí Ghaeilge chomh fada agus is féidir chun an spríd a choimeád sna scoileanna. Tá roinnt samplaí eile a bhí le tabhairt agam don Teach ach de bharr gairide an ama caithfidh mé éirigh as. Is mór an trua é.

In passing I should like to mention that we had a lot of rí rá about the allocation for schools in disadvantaged areas. On 4 April 1984 I tabled a question to the Minister asking her when she proposes to spend the £500,000 budgeted for the depressed areas of Dublin and Cork; if she has identified the areas in Cork needing allocation and if she will make a statement on the matter. I received a long answer that did not bear any relevance to the question asked. I was given an assurance that the information I require would be given to me. I should like to put it on record that I have not yet received from the Department the information the Minister said she would supply to me. I am not saying that that is the Minister's fault although it may be her responsibility but it is wrong if information is not supplied following a commitment to do so in the House. I was hoping the Minister would expand on what was meant by "disadvantaged areas". It seemed to me that the disadvantaged areas scheme was being confined to schools in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, all urban areas. The Department must realise that the scheme should be extended a little further. Of course, it is not possible to do very much with £500,000. I am aware that one of the most disadvantaged areas in my constituency did not qualify to be included in the allocation of funds.

I should like to refer to the RTC in Cork, a very important institution. I have a copy of a document submitted on 10 February 1984 to the Taoiseach when he visited the college. I wonder if any action has been taken on the problems that exist there and if any action proposed will be outlined to the students. The position in the RTC in Cork — other RTCs may have similar problems — is intolerable. It is time action was taken to correct the problems in the canteen, the library and accommodation generally. The canteen has a capacity for 200 students but the daily turnover is 2,500 students. Naturally, that leads to overcrowding. It has been alleged that the high prices there are due to the inefficiency of the operation. A turnover of that sort could mean that conditions are somewhat unhygienic. The library has a capacity for 160 students but the registered number of members is 1,500. Again, there is overcrowding, inefficiency and a less studious atmosphere. The accommodation was established long ago. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that the problems in the college are cleared up as soon as possible.

We all acknowledge the contribution made to education through the centuries by the religious orders who are today described as the voluntary schools. The Minister should give consideration to the position they find themselves in financially. The decision of the Department to discontinue the provision of school secretaires for such schools is reprehensible. I suggest that the Department look at the VAT charge on extensions, buildings and supply of materials and furnishings and so on to these schools. It does not make sense to give a grant for the building of a school and then for another Department to take a slice of it back in VAT.

We have seen no progress at all in the pupil-teacher ratio in these voluntary schools, as in all other schools.

I and many other people are concerned about the lack of discipline in our schools. I am not for a moment suggesting a reintroduction in any shape or form of corporal punishment but I am suggesting that we must find a way to introduce discipline into all our schools. In her recent action plan the Minister for Education, Deputy Hussey, refers only briefly to this matter. In section 2.28 and in section 2.29 the problem appears to be solved by appealing to youth organisations and associations. It is naive to think that peripheral activities such as youth clubs and associations could in any way ameliorate the classroom situation. If education is given direction it is extraordinary that the action programme makes no reference other than the passing reference I have mentioned to any code of discipline. It is useless to talk about vandalism, disadvantaged areas, etc., if no direction is given. Discipline involves no financial expenditure. Right through the action programme the Minister refers constantly to constraints in this regard. It is a pity that when the infamous former disciplinary measures were taken away — I agree that they should have been— an alternative in some shape or form was not thought out and introduced. That was an error of judgment. The present Coalition Government through the budget, for instance, ask the public to discipline themselves and they enforce discipline through Special Powers Acts, the Garda and the Army, while lack of discipline in schools, where society is moulded, reflects coldly on the type of society the Coalition Government hope to create.

I wish to put forward some suggestions in this matter. I emphasise that communication between teacher, principal and parent is essential, as is the involvement of the parent from the very early stages. I suggest that discipline would begin with a verbal warning from the principal. If this does not succeed the parents should be consulted. All communication between principal and teacher and between principal and pupil should be documented, and to this end the Department of Education should provide some sort of official card to record frequency and degrees of disruption. On perhaps the third communication between the teacher and the principal the teacher would have the right to remove the child from his or her class and continue in the job of educator. The problem would then be in the principal's hands. The principal could place the pupil in a new class at the same level where that would be possible, that is in larger schools. I recognise that this option would be impossible in the smaller primary schools, and so from this point a separate system would have to obtain. In that situation temporary expulsion from the school might be considered. However, I leave it to the people in the Department to examine the situation so that where necessary — it is not needed 100 per cent of the time and never was — a scheme of discipline for teachers, pupils and parents would be formulated to be brought into operation where necessary.

School transport is the bane of all our lives as public representatives with all the debates about it that have taken place here and, I could say, all the mess that went on in the scheme. I hope that all that is behind us and that the Ministers, the Department and everybody else concerned will profit by, first of all, experience of the scheme as it was introduced in 1966, its operation up to recent times and the dreadful tinkering and messing around with school transport since this Government came into power. I am sure that the Ministers have learned lessons sufficient to enable them to produce a reasonable plan or set of proposals to get children to school. I am pleased to hear from the Minister of State that he, the Minister and the Department are open to suggestions from public representatives all over the country, whom I would encourage to make suggestions and give them to the Department where, experience or not, that little extra is always necessary.

I condemn the attitude of the Ministers involved in the removal of medical cards from students during the year. I am a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, and a thought occurred to me that our Combat Poverty organisation wasted money in the leasing of a building that would go a long way towards meeting the £2 million that was reputed to be saved by the withdrawal of medical cards from students at third level. As a member of that committee I will be watching these developments closely. The situation is put in perspective when one considers the amount of money that was wasted on the Combat Poverty Committee. I have seen no evidence of success on the part of that committee in combating poverty. One recalls also the withdrawing of medical cards from third level students.

We owe a debt to teachers, both lay and religious, who have given so much by way of the development of sporting activities among young people. Wherever that fine tradition may have been diminished we should make every effort to awaken it, whether at bun-scoíl, mean-scoil or ard-scoil levels. We all realise the importance of sport in the development of the individual as a whole. While complimenting those teachers who are still involved in this area, we must encourage those who have never become involved to become involved. Despite the area of sport being transferred to the Department of Labour I urge the Department of Education to give every possible help in encouraging young people to engage in sporting activities.

In speaking to this Estimate I am very conscious of something said to me recently by a student at a regional technical college. We were discussing various requests and demands of the college and this student said he hoped public representatives realised that it is in education we can find the only long-term solution to social inequality. The more one thinks about that remark the more one is inclined to agree. Many of us who have been removed for some years from formal education can learn a lot from young people particularly those who are now at the third level stage.

Because of our very nature as human beings equality is not attainable but equal opportunity should be the right and the prerogative of all our children. Regardless of which side of the House we are on I think all of us would agree that that is what we are striving for, particularly in the area of education. When we mention equal opportunity for all we must think in terms of discriminating positively in favour of the disadvantaged so as to endeavour to bring them up to the level of children born with more talent and with more aptitude.

We have had a debate, though of only a few hours' duration, on the Programme for Action in Education 1984-1987. That programme encapsulates the Government's policy on education. I commend the programme to everybody and I commend the Minister for the tremendous thought that went into compiling it. It marks a highly significant initiative in education. At last we can see clearly where the priorities are. Rightly, the document is entitled a programme for action and not, as it was referred to by Deputy O'Rourke on the occasion on which we discussed it a programme for deferred action. This is a realistic document and it is nonsense for the Opposition to claim otherwise. The programme sets out what can and will be done within the obvious limited financial resources available.

Many of the reforms arise by way of reallocation rather than by involving additional expenditure or they involve structural reforms which do not carry cost implications. For example, the programme includes the expansion of boards of management of comprehensive schools to include parent-teacher representation and also teachers in the VECs, students and governing bodies of third level institutions, the establishment of parents' councils, a review of the scheme of posts of responsibility, the rationalisation of the Department's control and funding procedures, a review of the regional technical colleges, the new basis of paying capitation grants to secondary schools, the transfer of primary school buildings from the Office of Public Works to the Department of Education. None of these issues involves additional expenditure but we have waited years for this reform. I commend the Minister for taking the initiative in moving in these matters. They are matters that could have been tackled long ago but many of the reforms have been achieved in only six short months and it will be only a short time before the remainder are achieved.

In addition there is suggested an extensive range of cost-efficiency measures for third level education. These changes are significant. In the action programme the special priorities have been identified. These are primary education, remedial education and aid to the disadvantaged. These are not pious aspirations. They have been backed up by hard cash in the 1984 Estimates and they will remain priorities in each year as the programme is implemented.

On the previous occasion on which she spoke, Deputy O'Rourke criticised the lack of commitment to provide resources for the programme. There is no such lack of commitment as the following figures will show. A sum of £7 million has been identified specifically by the Minister for items in 1984 that are directly related to the implementation of the programme. Within the £7 million we are providing an increase of £4 per pupil in the rate of capitation grant payable in respect of the running costs of national schools. This will cost £2.3 million. There is provision also for a special fund of £500,000 for primary education in disadvantaged areas. There is an increase of £8 per pupil in the rate of grant payable to secondary school authorities in lieu of tuition fees. This will cost £1.6 million in 1984. There is an increased provision for £781,000 for in-service training, aid for school books and micro-computers at secondary level. There is an additional £2 million for primary school buildings and a grant of £300,000 for sporting organisations. There is a further £300,000 for the Curriculum and Examinations Board.

This £7 million has been identified as being spent in 1984 but let us not forget that the Programme for Action in Education is really the programme for the £1,000 million we are discussing here today. In these circumstances the Opposition cannot accuse us of not having a financial commitment to the programme. We are talking about £1,000 million being collected from the taxes of those men and women who are working and paying their taxes. We all agree that the taxation system is penal, that there is not enough disposable income at the end of the week. Those calling for additional expenditure should bear that in mind whether their particular issue is that of pupil-teacher ratio, remedial teaching or whatever. All these matters are very important and we would all like to bring about improvements in respect of them but we must ask where the additional money is to come from. We must be responsible and be able always to put our money where our mouth is on this issue.

Deputy O'Rourke has adopted a totally irresponsible attitude in her criticism of the programme for action. She called for a greatly expanded budget for education and for a reversal of the 1983 economy measures, measures that were designed by Fianna Fáil but subsequently disowned by them. The Deputy called, too, for more guidance teachers, more remedial teachers, the extension of preschooling as in the Rutland Street project, computer courses for parents and adults generally, reduced pupil-teacher ratios at primary level, increased thirdlevel grants, more in-service courses and sabbaticals for teachers. That was Deputy O'Rourke's shopping list in March. These are all very laudable issues but there was no mention of how they were to be paid for.

How is the free port of Rosslare to be paid for?

The call was, spend, spend, spend without our being told whose money was to be spent. Are these improvements to be made at the expense of the taxpayer or at the expense of some other source or by increased borrowing abroad? There are only three options when we call for increased expenditure on education. There was not even a mention of redeploying resources to achieve greater cost efficiency. Such is the luxury of irresponsible opposition.

What about Rosslare?

It is disappointing that the Fianna Fáil spokesperson did not make realistic constructive suggestions. Therefore, her comments cannot be taken seriously. As regards the Programme for Action in Education one of the first matters dealt with by the Minister was the new Curriculum and Examinations Board which was set up on an ad hoc basis last January. This will be put on a statutory basis within the period of the plan. Whether parents, teachers or legislators we all have much to say about the curricula for primary, second and third levels. Anything that can be done to make education more relevant to the needs of today, to the increased leisure time and the new developments in technology has to be welcomed. I welcome the freedom to adapt the curriculum to local needs. This will be interpreted at local level in a way which will meet the situation on the ground. There are vast differences in the needs of children headislator ing towards a job market in the inner city of Dublin and in the needs of those in the rural parts of the west. Agricultural areas have different needs and expect different results from the educational system to industrial areas.

The mathematics course needs to be looked at, particularly up to intermediate and leaving certificate pass level. Those who are fit to do honours mathematics are well catered for except in the case of girls who do not have sufficient access to these courses. The mathematical course should be more relevant to what children will face when they leave schools. Currencies, the EMS and the dollar should be dealt with and also percentages, income tax bands, interest rates, loans, HP, the metric system and stocks and shares. These items are barely touched on in the present curriculum. I appeal to the Minister and to the board to make these courses more relevant to the lives students will lead when they leave school.

Priority in the action plan is given to the use of available resources, particularly for disadvantaged pupils. We must discriminate positively in this area, even with scarce resources. The Minister has recognised this and everything possible will be done in this area. The Department of Education will take action on the proposals contained in the plan for Irish.

There is an area which is difficult to deal with because, no matter how one tackles it, one is open to misinterpretation. In Wexford we have very active committees interested in setting up Gael scoileanna. We all encourage the establishment of such schools. Anything that can be done to interest young people in Irish must be commended. I have had many approaches from the INTO in recent months expressing their concern about the establishment of these schools. My initial reaction was one of great surprise, particularly since the INTO are committed to the national language and its propagation among our children. We all owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to them for the way they have preserved and kept our heritage going over the years. It was with great surprise that I saw teachers coming to clinic after clinic expressing concern about the development of these all-Irish schools. It took me some time to get to the bottom of the problem. I had letters written by various secretaries of schools and chairpersons of the different branches of the INTO pointing out the difficulties that might be experienced.

After analysing the position for a few months the problem appears to be that, in time of scarce resources and when the Government cannot give extra teachers as they might want to do and cannot give all the remedial teaching they might want to, people resent special schools of any kind getting more attention than their own. The INTO support these schools provided they are treated financially by the Government in the same way as ordinary primary schools.

There are problems with the extra transport allowance. Children will travel from wide areas. This has to be so, otherwise the schools would not be filled. This has led to a fear of canvassing for pupils. In Wexford there is a real concern that they may lose a teacher in a school because of interest being expressed in and canvassing for a new all-Irish school which is about to be set up.

The Minister should look at this. I should like to see more Irish schools. It is in our interest to see this development continuing. It has been the policy of successive Governments for years. The Minister should look at this to see if anything can be done to alleviate the fears of the INTO, not only in Wexford but in other areas. She should look at the questions of finance, the size of the capitation grants, transport and the extra teacher, one over the ratio for primary schools, which is another bone of contention. The problem brought to my notice by the INTO deserves thorough investigation. It cannot be lightly that any committed member of the INTO would question the policy of having such schools. I ask the Minister to look at this area and ensure that the matter can be resolved to the satisfaction of all, particularly to that of the children who want to be educated in their native language.

I noted with interest and was somewhat quizzical about the fact that the INTO took this motion in committee at their conference. Perhaps they also had difficulty in discussing this in the open and resolving their problems. As the Minister pointed out, a task force is to be set up in relation to the teaching of Irish. No matter how successful we are at this in our schools there is still the problem of getting children and adults to use Irish in their daily life. In-service courses are to be provided to enrich teachers' knowledge of and skills in the arts. As a nation we fail to teach young people to appreciate and enjoy the arts, particularly the visual arts. We all know about enforced leisure time but this time need not be wasted. We should ensure that while our children are going through the school system, particularly through the compulsory years, something is done to awaken their appreciation of the arts. I do not know why we have failed for so long to give our children an appreciation of the arts. Perhaps it was because it was not fashionable or the thing to do. Young people, particularly boys, find it amusing if one tries to develop their interest in the arts and discuss it with them. This is an area where a lot more could be done. Additional music organisers and regional art organisers will be recruited. When one speaks of the arts one must include music. This is an area where all Irish people have a tremendous appreciation, but we could extend that even further. Proper development in these areas could ensure that enforced leisure or unemployed time could be gainfully occupied and a great deal learned from it.

A programme is to be undertaken to eliminate sexism and sex-stereotyping in education — less emphasis on the traditional roles. On this point it was with interest that I read the Minister's speech when she was awarding prizes at a computer competition recently. The interesting point that came from this was that in Ireland we have a much higher percentage of girls who are actually interested in computers and who are efficient and competent in their handling. This fact does not compare with other European countries where boys seem to have taken very easily to computer studies of one type or another. I quote from the Minister's speech on Wednesday, 16 May at a prize-giving reception for an Irish computer company:

A significant outcome of this competition is that approximately 40 per cent of the entries have been submitted by girls. This has been achieved in spite of the fact that the girls in most countries tend not to take the same interest in computers as boys do.

Many conferences abroad have endeavoured, so far without success, to isolate the cause of this phenomenon.

Here in Ireland, however, we have a competition which seems to attract almost as many girls as boys and I will keep myself informed of the trend in 1985.

Perhaps we have done more than we realise over the last few years in avoiding sex stereotyping in our schools, and I am delighted the Minister will continue her efforts in this area.

Literacy provision will be a priority in the programme of adult education. In the Action Programme for Education we are promised that a report will shortly be issued on this problem — the report of the commission published yesterday or the day before. The Minister welcomed the report and referred those listening to her to her Programme on Action for Education when she committed herself to implementing as many of the commission's proposals as possible.

The Curriculum and Examinations Board are to be asked to encourage the development of health education in the school curriculum at primary and post-primary level. Here one could speak for a long time, but I do not intend to. A proper health education programme in our schools would result in less abuse of drink and drugs, more understanding of true sexuality and less abuse of the person by children leaving school, because they would understand physiology and the damage they were doing to themselves. Young people especially have a particular interest in physiology and metabolism and if we continue to ignore this and let them leave school without proper instruction in this, we are failing.

Under the Health Education Programme a comprehensive programme of education for child care and home management both in boys' and girls' schools should be undertaken. This is compulsory on the Continent where there is a two-year programme in child care for both sexes. No matter what we choose to do with our lives, those of us who marry and have families find that the rearing of children is the most important, if not the only, role for many years. How can we continue to allow children to leave school without any education or preparation for the most important role in their lives? I cannot understand how this situation has continued for so long. I hope it will be possible to implement a full health education programme as soon as possible to take care of this and many other aspects.

The 1930 Vocation Educational Act is to be amended to allow for teacher representation on vocational education committees and in this context a review is to be undertaken of the arrangements for teacher appointments to VECs. There will be a review, I presume, of the vocational education structure in general, along with a review of local government, because the method of selection of members of VECs depends on the local government system of the day. The TUI had a campaign recently for VECs to be included under the 1977 Worker Participation Act. This, I hope, will be unnecessary in view of the Minister's commitment to allow for teacher representation under the Vocational Education Act. The Worker Participation Act would be totally unsuitable as the bodies which come under it are semi-State which work under the umbrella of boards of managment, and there is a totally different structure for selecting people to those boards compared to the vocational education committees.

The position of regional technical college boards and subcommittees of the vocational education committees is to be examined, as will the question of student representation on governing bodies of third level colleges. The sooner we can deal with this issue the better because there is still considerable disquiet particularly in the regional technical colleges since they do not have, as yet, student representation on the college bodies.

The presence of an RTC in a particular area is of tremendous significance in attracting industry. IDA regional officers will tell you that some of the first questions asked by industrialsts coming into an area are: "What are the third level facilities? Is there an RTC, if there is not a college?" Wexford in particular has lost out drastically because of the absence of an RTC. At the moment we have a request before the Minister for such a college. I am as critical as any other Member on the Government side of those who ask for everything without saying from where the money will be provided. However, I hope that sooner or later we will be in a financial position to accede to such requests. Areas of high unemployment — Wexford town has 25 per cent unemployment — would benefit tremendously from such provision, particularly from the point of view of the industry they would attract. At present we are serviced very well by the Waterford RTC but many young people cannot avail of the facilities there because of the distances they have to travel and because of the transition in moving from home to Waterford at a fairly young age.

I welcome the Minister's announcement that parents will be facilitated in the formation of a national parents' council. We are constantly reminded that parents are the primary educators of their children. This is enshrined in the Constitution. The Minister's announcement is most welcome. It was with some amusement that I read of Fianna Fáil's conversion to our way of thinking on this matter. Deputy O'Rourke welcomed this and commended the Minister, but Fianna Fáil's record over the years has been that they completely excluded parents. They appear to have had no interest in parents' involvement in children's education. I hope Deputy O'Rourke's views on this correspond with her party's views because it has not been Fianna Fáil policy up to this. I venture to suggest that she check this out with Deputy Haughey because we all know what happens to Fianna Fáilers who take unilateral decisions. I welcome their change of heart and their conversion because this is a matter on which we must all agree. We must involve parents on school boards of management and on the parents' council.

Economy measures are to be introduced into the school building programme in expanding areas. This is essential because it is the one taxpayer who must pay for all. He must keep putting his hand into his pocket while his disposable income is being eroded week in and week out, year in and year out. We know from population growth figures and statistics that for the next 15 years or so there will be tremendous demand on school buildings and school places in general, but around the turn of the century we will have empty classrooms, if the present population growth figures continue, and plenty of places at third level institutions. However, between now and then there will be a few very difficult years. It is questionable whether we should keep going on a very expensive capital building programme for facilities which will not be necessary in 15 or so years' time. We must look at the possibility of making better use of existing facilities. The capital cost of building our schools and third level colleges is so great that one questions whether they can be left empty for months of the year and many hours of each day as at present.

I welcome the fact that we shall be looking at the possible reorganisation of the academic year, the possibility of changing the term structure as we now know it, of perhaps changing the length of degree courses, but in any event, gearing ourselves to making optimum use of existing facilities without immediately thinking that the only solution to the problem of finding places in our educational levels for the next few years is providing ever more buildings. We shall also be using temporary accommodation for the peaking population, particularly in our urban areas. This might not be ideal, but once we know that the demand for this accommodation will be for only approximately ten or 15 years, particularly when one speaks of the primary and secondary level, that is acceptable. However, these temporary buildings must be kept up to acceptable standards and I think that the Minister is on the right path in this area.

The Department are pledged to encourage development of sport for all activities in both primary and post-primary schools. Indeed, like the health education programme about which I talked earlier, and which I hope we shall soon see in our curricula, increased awareness of the value of sport would at the end of the day result in less drug abuse, less vandalism and less crime in general.

Hear, hear.

We do need more effective administration in this area. We need more improved coaching, a review of the PE schools. The Minister has provided an extra £300,000 in the budget for 11 different sporting organisations and this is evidence of her commitment to what she says. Aspirations are one thing; policy is something else. When we are prepared to put the money down we are on the way to implementing our policies. We are not just talking about pious aspirations.

I have spoken before in the House of the school transport system and do not intend to go over that ground again. It is an essential back-up, particularly for our primary and secondary school children. A sum of £28 million was spent on this in 1983. The buses which we are using to transport our children around the country are not fit to transport animals. Quite frankly, the present rules and regulations governing the transport of animals are stricter than those governing the transport of our children, and that is an appalling thing to have to admit. The other side of the coin is that the capital cost of replacing a bus fleet which this Government inherited 18 months ago is prohibitive. The buses are safe, but are old, decrepit and dirty. This is an area which will have to be tackled. Further rationalisation of the school transport system must come if we are to continue to provide this essential service for our children, particularly those in remote areas. The bus is not just a means of getting to school; it is a means of keeping them in contact with the villages, the nuclei of the country, where they can socialise and enjoy the amenities which are quite easily accessible to urban children.

The special needs of gifted children must not be forgotten, also. Indeed, these children are such a small percentage of the population that one does not refer to them too often. However, if these children are not properly looked after they will become a great problem to the community. They will either contribute greatly to society or cause massive problems. In this area we must consider where we are going and what can be done.

The funding in national schools generally will be a priority in the allocation of available resources, with additional support being given in disadvantaged areas. I have already mentioned £2.4 million of additional capitation grants coming in here and, indeed, I recognise the very onerous position of many boards of management of primary schools. It is at present very difficult to keep the schools maintained in good condition, properly cleaned and properly heated. I commend the boards of management for their trojan work. I can safely say that none of our children is suffering, even though some of the boards of management are stretched to solve the problems which they experience.

The question of making special provision for painting the inside and outside of our national schools is to be examined. It is most important that the environment in which our children are taught be the correct one. Cleanliness and general tidiness of their environment will help to make them civically minded. This provision is economically sound. I must commend the Minister and hope that she is in a position to provide some funds in this direction.

Special attention will be given to the learning difficulties in literacy and numeracy. This whole area, we all appreciate, needs tremendous attention. Pupils who fall behind at the age of eight or nine years, which is the age of the basic skills and proficiencies, will have problems for the rest of their lives. Many children are not so academically gifted but if they can all leave school, particularly at the end of the compulsory period of schooling, with proficiency in literacy and numeracy, most of them will have a certain confidence to manage their lives and get themselves through life. We would not have the tremendous demand for literacy provision from adult education centres of one type or another if the job were being done properly at primary level.

Perhaps one of the greatest handicaps we can inflict on our children is for any of them to leave school without being fully literate. Special resources must be made available to national schools which will cater for socially and economically disadvantaged children. This is specially important in larger urban areas where there is not perhaps the same home motivation in some disadvantaged areas and where the job for the teacher is made all the more difficult as a result. Extra resources have been given over and above the capitation grants.

Responsibility for national school building is to be transferred from the Office of Public Works to the Department of Education. Every man and woman lauds this announcement. Quite frankly, rightly or wrongly, boards of management in particular considered the old system, whereby they trudged between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Education and back again ad nauseam, to be only a delaying factor. Perhaps that is slightly unfair, but that was the perception on the ground. I am afraid that in the short few months I had to deal with the system, I was beginning to wonder exactly what the necessity of it all was. A very wise decision was made to tidy up the situation in that area. The Construction Industry Federation also had a lot to say in this and welcomed this change.

In Wexford, we have a very large primary school building programme. At the moment 50 schools are either just completed or under various stages of construction. Those who criticise the Government commitment to the capital programme for primary schools should examine it in the context of the long-term needs of our community. As I have said, we will have to accept temporary accommoderation as a solution in the short term. In the long term, by the turn of the century we will not need all the extra classrooms for which we now have a demand.

A difficult area is the amalgamation of small urban schools — the two and three teacher schools. This will only be done as these schools come up for replacement. This area needs the utmost sensitivity in handling. The local school is a landmark in a community and there is tremendous pride in rural villages with regard to it. This matter will be dealt with competently by a Minister such as Deputy Hussey, who has the sensitivity to understand what is involved, particularly in rural areas.

Pilot projects will be undertaken in the teaching of science and in the use of computers at selected national schools. Often children know more about computers than their teachers do, particularly the younger children because of the great interest being shown. An area which we can look at is how the leisure time of young children and their particular hobbies and interests can direct them towards tremendous educational facilities. The various games and interests of children over the last few years have all been based on electronics, with particular emphasis on computers. This will have a tremendous spin-off over the years as these children go up through the educational system and come into the work place.

Under special education many provisions have been made. A number of teachers will be appointed and trained to provide a programme of instruction for the severely mentally handicapped. The present provision for the education of the mildly handicapped in post primary schools by way of additional teachers will be expanded. I favour the integration, if at all possible, of all mildly handicapped people into the ordinary national school system. Any back-up which we can give to teachers in our national schools to help them to include these children in their classrooms would be most welcome. To go through life with any type of handicap is isolating enough. If you have to be hived off at a very young age into a special category in a school confidence is shattered and it is very hard for these people to take their rightful place in the community after their school years unless they are educated with their peer group.

It is also very important for children who are lucky enough not to have a handicap of any sort to learn to cope with, and appreciate, the position of children who have these different problems. For years in this country — I suppose it was the same elsewhere — our answer to these children was to lock them behind the doors of institutions and it was very much a case of out of sight out of mind. I am delighted now with the enlightened policy in which there is hardly a national school that does not have in many of its classes a child with a handicap of some sort. The importance of this for the handicapped child and the child not so unfortunate cannot be over-emphasised. We must accept these children as part of our country and ensure they take their rightful place in the community with all of us.

I am delighted that the Minister during the year removed the condition that an Irish qualification was necessary to teach handicapped children. This issue had not been tackled. I had many representations during the 18 months I have been here from eminently qualified people to teach handicapped children who, because they did not have an Irish qualification, could not, for example, teach deaf children. If we get deaf children communicating adequately in one language we have done a very good day's work. I am delighted this matter has been tackled. It has opened the door to some people with tremendous qualifications to have access to our children and the systems in which they have been taught.

The capitation rate which obtains in special schools will be applied to special classes in national schools. This emphasises what I have just said about the acceptance of these handicapped children in our normal school system. Good back-up services are needed. These services exist at the moment for deaf children in ordinary schools. I do believe they are as adequate as they should be for children suffering from other types of handicap.

When we talk about special education it is salutary to remind ourselves that only 50 per cent of all travellers' children are yet at school. The recommendation of the review body on travelling people underlined this particular fact and recommended that appropriate action be taken. Before educational action can be taken more action needs to be taken at local authority level to house the travellers. Once we get them settled we can get the children to school. I know that the children in Wexford integrate very well in the local national schools if they are given a chance.

Under second level education the programme for action indicates tremendously important areas where action needs to be taken. I have already referred to the greater flexibility which will be given to schools to introduce alternative curricula at primary level. This is very welcome at secondary level. The Curriculum and Examinations Board will be spending time providing greater harmony between the curriculum at primary school and the transition into secondary school I have already mentioned my views on the maths curriculum. I feel that this curriculum up to sixth class in primary schools bears little relevance to what is taught in first class at secondary level. The transition from primary to secondary school is difficult enough for many children but to have the curriculum out of step and out of harmony adds to the problem.

Special emphasis is to be given under this particular section of second level education to pupils who are likely to drop out before they complete compulsory education, those who terminate their schooling at the end of the compulsory cycle. The 15 to 18 year old group need special attention here. There needs to be a better relationship generally between education, training and the world of work. More relevance in this area and more understanding of what is before the children would appear to be on the cards. A discussion paper is to be prepared on the number of years to be spent at the post-primary school level and on the general question of restructuring post-primary courses. It is felt by many that a sixth year is necessary if the child is going on to higher education. At 16½ or 17 years they are often too young and immature to know their own minds. As a result this contributes to a high drop out rate in some courses at third level. This aspect has to be considered with enlightened discussion on the age that the child should enter the primary school cycle for the greatest educational benefits. The primary school entry age, the secondary school entry age, the number of years in secondary school must be considered together by our educationalists. We must listen, talk and have a proper dialogue and come to an agreed solution as to what is best for the educational requirements of our children in this matter.

The granting of school fees and the capitation grant are to be combined to form one per capita grant for schools within the free educational scheme and from the school year 1984-85 this will be based on enrolment numbers of pupils rather than on attendance as heretofore. This will be welcomed. When it is such an obvious issue one wonders why it was not done long ago.

Secondary schools will be empowered to appoint part-time teachers within the quota of full-time posts instead of the equivalent number of full-time teachers. This will give more flexibility in introducing different subjects into the curriculum. We are committed to improving the pupil-teacher ratio as circumstances permit but to call for increased ratio at every different level now without indicating where the resources will come from is irresponsible. I, like many Deputies, have beaten the path to the Minister's door with requests from schools in Wexford for an extra teacher for different subjects for schools in particular difficulty. Many, when there was an essential subject involved, resolved their difficulties but others could not because they did not conform to the guidelines for the pupil-teacher ratio as laid down by the Minister. She has an extremely difficult job to do in this area. All I can say is that I hope circumstances will permit, as soon as possible, that attention can be given to this. I feel if we could improve the pupil-teacher ratio at primary and secondary school levels there would be less demand for remedial teachers. There would be less demand for some other type of institutional reform in our community generally if we could get at the children when they are young enough and give them the attention they need.

The co-operation of industry and business will be sought in providing opportunities for post-primary school pupils to familiarise themselves with new developments in technology. I will take this point up again when I refer briefly to third level institutions generally and the industrial world. I welcome oral examinations in modern continental languages which are to be introduced in 1986 as part of the leaving certificate examination. We must encourage the use of modern languages and skills because we must never forget that we are a committed partner of the EEC now. Indeed, the EEC is providing a tremendous source of experience and jobs for many of our qualified third level graduates who have expertise in this area.

Urgent consideration is to be given to the review of the place of participative citizenship in the school curriculum. This will really be an example of democracy in action in our schools. Issues of citizenship in general and political awareness can be dealt with. If our children are taught to understand the system and the alternatives available they will be in a position to choose wisely and to know what they want from the very systems of administration we have when they are old enough to have an input. Suitable structures are to be introduced between the Department of Education and the various State agencies involved in education and vocational training with a view to avoiding unnecessary duplication of scarce resources. This is long awaited. The appointment of Deputy George Birmingham as Minister of State at the Department of Labour and at the Department of Education shows the co-ordination we can expect in this particular area.

Many problems are being experienced' by those involved at third level. The Government will continue to provide third-level education for as many young people as possible but it is essential to get the best possible value at this level for the taxpayer, though it is also important at primary and second level. Priority and financial support will be given to academic developments which are geared to ensuring that graduates are kept abreast of rapidly changing technology. We have mentioned the importance of interesting our children in this area.

The first report of the Joint Committee on Small Businesses was published recently. I am a member of this committee and the report relates to manufacturing industry in general. The committee recommended as follows:

Third-level institutions should be specifically responsible for obtaining and disseminating information on new developments in technology. The wealth, talent, expertise, experience and facilities of these institutions in every industrial discipline should be made available for the benefit of industry. A framework should be introduced on a pilot basis to develop active partnerships between third-level institutions and manufacturing industry, to use third-level skills and experience in raising industrial performance and improving technology, to train graduates for careers in industry and to provide teaching staff with direct industrial experience on a continuing basis.

The report continues:

Funds should be made available to bring student ideas up to the stage where a proposal could be considered under the Feasibility Study Grants Scheme. Students must be encouraged to seriously consider the possibility of starting their own businesses as an alternative to seeking employment in the traditional fashion. Funds of £5,000 per college should be provided.

Here again we are suggesting that money be provided without saying where it should come from. This report is an excellent document and I commend it to those who are interested in third-level education. That section of the report, taken with what the Minister said this morning, shows that we have already gone down the road to a greater or lesser extent.

The Minister referred to links with business and industry and stated:

As indeed also with second-level education, there is a need for closer links between the third-level institutions and the world of work. A good deal has already been accomplished in this area and links have been forged between the industrial and commercial world with a number of our third-level institutions. This kind of linkage is mutually beneficent: the needs of the business world become known to the institutions and have an influence on their courses, while the business world in turn can use the institutions for research and development work and sponsor the kind of developments in the institutions which would have a spin-off for the business world.

The Minister goes on to give the example of the tremendous co-operation between the dairy science faculty in UCC and a County Cork co-operative in developing the processing of cheese for export. This is an excellent example of what can be achieved by the envolvement of the two interests. She also mentions the NIHE in Limerick and the developments there which, with funding from the NBST, have resulted in a company which produces and markets an automatic power supply test system in Ireland, the UK and the US.

Many of us believe that one of the major solutions to our appalling unemployment problem rests with the encouragement of small business. Anything we can do in the educational field to co-ordinate and co-operate with third level to achieve such an outcome must be applauded. I commend the Minister and the third-level institutions for what they have done already and I urge the Minister to refer to the report of the Joint Committee on Small Businesses to see if anything more can be done to co-ordinate the efforts of Members of this House to achieve the essential outcome.

The CII back the Minister in regard to new technology. The Irish Independent of 19 March 1984 stated:

The Confederation of Irish Industry has pledged it will play its part in a constructive debate on the education system sought by Minister Hussey.

They welcomed the publication of the Action Programme for Education and backed many of its proposals and stressed that the emphasis on developments in new technology was particularly important to the economic growth of the nation. We are indeed lucky that we have a Minister who recognises the essential priority that must be given to this area if we are to deal as capably as possible with the unemployment figures.

A review is to be undertaken concerning the extent to which the regional technical colleges have succeeded in achieving the goals originally set out. I referred earlier to Wexford's wish for its own RTC and the importance of such an institution to an area in attracting industry.

There is still a general bias against vocational and technical education. This is rapidly diminishing but it is a matter which must be faced. At secondary school level in Wexford we have sufficient places for applicants but they are not always the places of their first choice. There is a preference for the traditional type of education, particularly in rural areas, and parents would rather use the traditional schooling system in giving their children the education they themselves, in many cases, did not receive. It is in the interests of all of us to show that the vocational system is what it is meant to be. Perhaps a public relations programme is necessary. The education, training and curriculum are second to none. I speak particularly about Wexford since I have little knowledge of other areas. We find it very difficult to convince parents that this is the case. Time will prove us right but in the meantime there will continue to be problems as each year pupils look for places in secondary schools.

In order to achieve a greater throughput of students at third level without incurring major capital costs the feasibility of redesigning courses on the basis of a four-term academic year will be examined. Perhaps there should be a similar assessment of capital facilities at secondary school level. If we continue to have very expensive buildings we will have to work out a system whereby they are utilised more, particularly during the holidays and perhaps the weekends and evenings. If the taxpayer is paying for this system, we will have to ensure that he gets maximum value and return for it.

I would mention again the futility of demanding more of everything, of accepting a shopping list such as Deputy O'Rourke gave us last March, without putting our money where our mouth is. I commend this Estimate. Our education system is in very sound hands.

While I accept the norm that a Deputy can speak on an issue such as this for as long as he or she wishes, I understood there was an agreement that each Deputy would speak for half an hour. I can quite understand why an effort is being made by the Government party to keep Opposition Deputies out and to prevent them speaking, if at all possible. I accept that the Deputy was fully entitled to speak for as long as she did, but I understood that each Deputy was to have half an hour.

I received no such instruction.

Deputy Doyle is as aware of it as everybody else.

I am aware of it but it is not in the order.

It was accepted by most people. As Deputy Doyle continued for a considerable time, perhaps I have a similar right.

Deputy Durkan gave as the reason for so many teachers being unemployed that the number of teachers available was more than the market could bear. Let me remind Deputy Durkan and the House that in so far as primary teachers are concerned the Department of Education rigidly control the intake to the colleges of education and permit only the number they regard as necessary in any year. Therefore the Department have a moral responsibility to unemployed primary teachers to see to it that they are employed immediately. Many people are without employment because the present Minister made changes in the pupil-teacher ratio since she assumed office.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn