asked the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism when he proposes to deal with the application of the Association of International Accountants for recognition as company auditors under section 162 (1) (a) of the Companies Act, 1963; if he is satisfied that the qualifying examinations are comparable in standard and scope with those of the established bodies of accountants in the Republic; if he will agree that in equity the members of the association should be allowed to practise the profession of accountancy throughout the Republic and also become eligible for appointment in the Government service as accountants and other executive appointments where a professional accountancy qualification is one of the conditions for appointment; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Association of International Accountants.
Applications by the Association of International Accountants for recognition under section 162 (1) (a) of the Companies Act, 1963, as amended by section 6 of the Companies (Amendment) Act, 1982 have been dealt with on a number of occasions over the years but, following careful consideration of the matter, successive Ministers did not see fit to grant the recognition sought because it could not be established that the membership had suitably high academic qualifications or experience.
While I am aware that the qualifying standards of the association have recently been brought into line with those of other accountancy bodies which are recognised under the Companies Acts, I could not grant recognition unless I was satisfied that the great majority of their members had attained the necessary qualifications.
I should point out that officials of my Department met with representatives of the association in December 1983 when they agreed to submit additional data in support of their application for recognition. When this information is received the matter will then be given further consideration.
Failure to qualify for appointment as company or public auditor does not preclude the employment of persons with accountancy qualifications in other areas where such qualifications are required; it is a matter for prospective employers to decide the necessary qualifications. My functions relate only to the question of qualification for appointment as company and public auditors.
As the international accountants are the only body who have their examinations moderated, is the Minister satisfied that their examinations, markings and standards are comparable to other examinations held by similar institutions for some years now?
Since about 1978.
It was around then that the British authorities decided to recognise their examination in the same way. Is the reason for the Minister's refusal to recognise them prompted by the fact that the British have not yet given recognition? I would be sad to think that this was the case but the Minister could act in a reforming way by giving the lead in this regard.
I do not think that would be a sufficient reason to disqualify any association from recognition, just because the authorities of their country of origin did not allow them an equivalent recognition. We have an obligation to look at this case on its merits. However, the vast bulk of the membership of the association have not qualified under the improved examination requirements and to give a blanket recognition to the entire practice, including people who are a long time in the trade, might not necessarily be in the best interest of the consumer. I have looked at this matter since the Deputy's question was put down and I have not finally concluded my deliberations on this subject but I am advised that there would be considerable problems in granting recognition at this stage.
Does the Minister agree that it is entirely logical that certain persons should be allowed to practice accountancy and is there illogicality in maintaining that prohibition?
It is possible that one might wish to change it. On the other hand, the trend in company law is to place increased rather than reduced obligations on auditors to satisfy themselves that companies' accounts are in good order and that creditors and employees are protected. To move on the one hand to increase the obligation which is what forthcoming legislation will be doing and at the same time to relax the statutory requirements as to qualifications would be illogical.
Does the Minister not agree that the creditors and people dealing with business, even though they are unincorporated, are entitled to the same degree of protection from the auditors of those businesses as those in incorporated companies?
There is a difficulty in the case of organisations that have limited liability. Where there is unlimited liability clearly one can pursue the people involved as to their personal assets. Therefore there is a greater obligation to ensure that the latter are properly run.
Is the Minister aware that the International Association of Accountants are supported by the trade union movement and by business in their effort to have themselves recognised? Would he not agree that he is acting contrary to natural justice in that they have performed every task set to them? Their examinations and their professional competency are accepted by all groups both here and abroad as being sufficient to warrant their acceptance. Would the Minister agree that all it requires to resolve the matter is an initiative on his part in consultation with his opposite number on the other side of the Irish Sea? I think the Minister recognises that.
The Deputy should not over emphasise the cross-Channel dimension. It is not particularly important in my mind. I said in my reply that the association were asked for further information in December 1983 and, to the best of my knowledge, that information has not yet been forthcoming. When it is forthcoming, I will be prepared to look at it, without necessarily being bound by anything colleagues in any other country might do.
Would the Minister indicate what information is outstanding?
I cannot say. I am advised that such information was sought.
Would the Minister communicate it to me?
I would have to consider that carefully. I do not think it would be right for me to give the Deputy information about what I or my officials have sent to somebody else.
It is reasonable for me to ask the Minister to supply me with that information.
If they want to give it to the Deputy, there is nothing to stop them doing that.
This information might make it possible for the question to be answered positively. The vast majority of the 65 members of this association have been practising in this business for a long number of years in very substantial companies, and they should be given an opportunity to get the recognition they deserve.
If I feel I can supply the necessary information to the Deputy without breaching any confidentiality with the association, I will supply it to him.