By agreement, and not-withstanding anything in Standing Orders, statements in relation to the revision of the balance of payments figures will be made today subject to: (1) No member, with the exception of the Taoiseach, shall make more than one statement, (2) The statement of each speaker shall not exceed 30 minutes and (3) The concluding speaker, who shall be a member of the Government, shall be called not later than 1.50 p.m. and shall conclude not later than 2.00 p.m. at which time the Dáil shall adjourn.
Order of Business.
The difficulties we have had in trying to organise the business are common knowledge. The Order of Business as proposed is not agreed in so far as we do not accept we are not entitled to move our no confidence motion. In the event of our not being allowed move that motion, today's business collapses. On such an important issue, with so many Members in the House and from the point of view also of the public, it would be ridiculous not to have the matter debated. We were promised such a debate by the Taoiseach on the Order of Business on Tuesday last. He said then that a debate would take place today. That is on the official record. He did not say there would be a series of statements.
As you have ruled several times, it is set out clearly in Standing Orders that there can be no debate on a statement. What is proposed for today is totally against precedent. In June 1982 and in November of that year also the Taoiseach who was then Leader of the Oppostion raised the question of the confidence motion and quoted from the Constitution and from Standing Orders to illustrate that he was right. The present Leader of the Opposition who was then Taoiseach agreed to what was proposed on both occasions. In all other cases, too, the Chair allowed debates to proceed and confidence motions to be taken. We asked you yesterday to consider this matter but you refused. Before we embark on a series of statements I would ask you to reconsider the position and to allow our motion of no confidence to be moved and debated.
As I explained yesterday to the Leader of the Opposition, both in the House and in correspondence, I am satisfied beyond doubt that the Chair has no control over the ordering of business. There are two Standing Orders dealing with that. I think it is Standing Order 25 which sets out that the Taoiseach shall, at the beginning of public business, read the Order of Business for the day. I do not wish to enter into controversy with Deputy Ahern or with any other Deputy about what happened in the past but it is clear that, whatever else the Chair may have done, the Chair did not order business or exercise control as to what would be taken or what would be given precedence except in accordance with Standing Orders. I am sorry that I cannot help the Members of the House by having something put on the Order Paper for discussion.
With respect, I think you are creating a precedent now. What is involved is a serious matter but there could be even more serious matters involved. You are creating the precedent that, if the Taoiseach of the day decides that a motion of no confidence cannot be debated, that decision stands.
I regret that Deputy Ahern should seek to put the Chair on the wrong foot, so to speak. The Chair does not quote precedents or act on precedents.
He acts on precedents every day.
Keep the blood pressure down.
It is the Ceann Comhairle's blood pressure that we are worried about.
The Chair does not quote precedents or act on precedents except in so far as they refer to matters over which he has a discretion or control.
A Cheann Comhairle, I wish to put one or two points to you about this matter. As you know, I wrote to you yesterday evening and you very courteously replied to me almost immediately. In my letter to you, Sir, I pointed out that the overwhelming burden of precedent is that motions of no confidence have been given priority in the past. I want to submit to you that the Opposition, rightly or wrongly — but I think interpreting the wishes of many people in this country — wish to voice their censure of the Minister for Finance in this matter. I want to suggest to you that it is subverting the proceedings of this House that we are not allowed to do that and the process of a series of statements without a vote cannot possibly be an adequate way for the Opposition to express their disapproval and censure of the actions of a Minister. I want you, please, to consider that point carefully. Also, the long history of precedents of Governments immediately responding and providing Government time for motions of no confidence. In my view, what is happening here is that this Government, having falsified the national accounts——
(Interruptions.)
The Opposition are hard up.
Order, please.
——now wish to undermine and manipulate the long-established procedures of this House to prevent the Minister for Finance from being brought to justice.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please. I want to quote Standing Order No. 25 which states:
Every sitting of the Dáil shall be governed by a printed Order Paper which shall be prepared under the direction of the Ceann Comhairle. The Taoiseach shall have the right to determine the order in which Government business shall appear on the Order Paper and, by announcement at the commencement of public business, the order in which it shall be taken.
In regard to precedent, when the Chair quotes precedents he does so only when they relate to the exercise of his powers and functions. It would not be for the Chair to quote precedents in relation to other matters. That is clear.
I have one further submission. It is that during the course of the discussions which have arisen on this matter so far, the Taoiseach in the view of all of us on this side of the House gave the very clear and distinct impression that the House was being called today for purposes of debating our motion.
Certainly not.
Anybody looking at the record——
It could not possibly bring that into it.
——of what was said would certainly come to that conclusion. Also, Sir, as I have pointed out, all the journalists present were under the same impression because they faithfully recorded in their respective newspapers that the House would meet today to debate a Fianna Fáil no confidence motion.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
A Deputy
No way.
I suggest to you that you have an obligation in this matter to see that the time-honoured procedures of this House are adhered to and that this Government are not allowed to run away from their responsibilities or to subvert and undermine the well-established procedures of this House and are obliged to deal fairly with the Opposition on a matter of primary importance of this kind.
I must make my position perfectly clear and I must resist the implication in what the Leader of the Opposition has just said. He implied that I am not dealing fairly with the Opposition. In its nakedness, that is what the Leader of the Opposition has said. I have no control over the matters raised by the Leader of the Opposition. I have no control as to when his vote of no confidence in the Minister for Finance may be taken and at the risk of going a little further than I should go, perhaps the Leader of the Opposition is thinking about a form of vote of no confidence other than a vote of no confidence in an individual. I have no control over the ordering of business of any description and I feel that the Leader of the Opposition should appreciate that.
If it is of any help to you, we should be very happy to interpret our motion as a vote of no confidence in the Government. I do not think we can go much further in expressing no confidence in a Government than by expressing no confidence in the primary, principal Minister of that Government outside the Taoiseach, namely the Minister for Finance. I think, Sir, it is, with due respect, somewhat of a quibble to suggest that we are not seeking a motion of no confidence in the conduct of its business by this Government, which, in fact, we are.
Our motion of no confidence in the Minister for Finance is on the Order Paper. I presume that the procedures today will not affect that matter and that that motion could be taken next week in Private Member's Time, if necessary.
My understanding of the matter is that——
I would look for a ruling, Sir, not your understanding.
My understanding of it is that that remains on the Order Paper and will be taken in Private Member's time, over which the Leader of the Opposition has control.
Finally, even though our motion is the equivalent of a motion of no confidence in the Government expressed as no confidence in the Minister for Finance, the Government, flying in the face of all precedents, are refusing to give us priority for such a motion. Is that the position that this Government are adopting?
I want to clarify the matter now beyond all doubt, for now and for the future. Even if it were a vote of no confidence in the Government and stood on the Order Paper, the Chair could not order it to be taken.
The Opposition have not even got their procedure right.
Is the motion before the House agreed?
Before you put that to the House, there is one other matter and it has to deal with the business of the House next Monday, I presume, a Cheann Comhairle, that I am entitled to raise this matter.
I take it the motion before the House is agreed?
When I did that yesterday you refused.
Dictatorship is coming. Right, Jack?
Arrogance.
Arrogance. Say one thing and then change it.
Order, please.
Do not change the figures, anyway.
From this side of the House, you look like a bunch of braying asses and sound like, too.
The Leader of the Opposition must be looking in the mirror.
Is the matter before the House agreed?
Agreed.
You very kindly, Sir, in pursuance of your promise sent me a memorandum—a draft of the protocol pertaining to the visit of President Reagan on Monday next. Could I just at this stage, Sir, put you on notice that there are a number of matters included in these details to which we have not agreed. I expect that we shall be raising them with you during the day. Lest there be any suggestion that the order in the protocol for next Monday is agreed by the parties of this House, I want to put you on notice that it is not at this stage.
I shall be available to discuss the matter with the Deputy.