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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984

Vol. 352 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Payment of British Pensions.

I want to thank you, Sir, for giving us time to bring this matter to the notice of the House. The Minister will be aware that many people from the west found it necessary to emigrate in the fifties and now, having retired to Ireland, are in receipt of British contributory pensions because they were able to secure employment in England over a period. As a result of a strike in the British Ministry of Pensions headquarters in Newcastle-upon-Tyne over the last ten weeks they have not been paid any pensions. There are also some pensioners who did not have a full contributory pension from England and who are in receipt of old age pensions from the Department of Social Welfare here.

There is a practice whereby their books are recalled from time to time because of the fact that old age pensioners are means tested. At present many of these books have been recalled by the Department of Social Welfare because of changes in the rates of payment from England due to budgetary regulations. It means that these pensioners have been without payment of any kind for the last ten weeks. This also applies to people who are in receipt of invalidity pensions from England and who have not received any payment. We maintain that the Department of Social Welfare and the Minister should be able to do something to provide assistance for these pensioners to help them with their present problems because of non-payment. When we had a Post Office strike here the Department of Social Welfare, through the good offices of sub-postmasters and local business people, were able to provide a service for these people at a time when they could not get their contributions in the ordinary way.

I should also like to point out that the people about whom we are speaking never sought assistance of any kind from the State. When they could not get employment at home they emigrated to England, worked there and were never a burden on the State. Their contributions towards the maintenance of their families at home and towards the education of their children was greatly admired by people in the west who knew what they had to endure. We are asking the Department of Social Welfare and the Minister to look at the possibility of providing assistance to alleviate the problems these people have. It should be possible, through the health boards or the Department, to set up machinery whereby their needs could be looked after. It could be done in such a way that when they again get their benefits from England the contributions made by the Department of Social Welfare or the health boards could be claimed and repaid to the British Ministry. Because the strike has gone on for such a long time some of these people are in dire straits and we have a duty to ensure that they will be looked after.

I want to thank Deputy Dennis Gallagher for giving me a few moments of his time to relate the many experiences which I have heard in relation to retirement and invalidity pensions from Newcastle-Upon-Tyne.

Many people in my constituency, like Mayo and other parts of the country, have had to emigrate over the past few decades, but fortunately most of them were able to retire to their native soil. Many of these people are on contributory pensions and are in a very difficult situation as they have received no payment over the past ten weeks. They could make representations through their health boards for welfare assistance but there is a serious difficulty in that regard, because if they claim this assistance the Department of Health and Social Security in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne will be in communication with the Department of Social Welfare before they make any payments available. If the people of whom I speak have claimed welfare assistance and are fortunate enough to receive it, they must wait until these repayments are met and until such time as the Ministry in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, the Department in Dublin and the various health boards are satisfied that the money is repaid. This is deterring people from approaching the health boards and they are leaving it week after week hoping that the payments will come through.

I have been in communication with the officials in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne on many occasions and they have been very helpful. If they could help they would, but all the payments are computerised and it is that section which is on strike. In addition, those who are in receipt of a part pension from the UK and a supplementary pension from Dublin are fortunate enough to be in receipt of a free telephone rental and free electricity allowances, but unfortunately the people in receipt of a pension from the UK only do not have these allowances. I appreciate that this debate is not about that matter but I ask the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare to take into consideration these two factors. Perhaps over the next couple of weeks he might be able to ensure that electricity and free telephone allowances would be made available to them. Before the end of this week, the Minister and the Department should ensure the payment of the corresponding amount of the old age pension to those people as they have many bills to pay to people who cannot wait for their money. There should also be retrospective payments to ensure that they will not be left in their present terrible circumstances.

I should like to add my support to the Deputies who have spoken. The position is critical in my area with quite a number of people affected. Through no fault of their own they are now without the basic necessities of life. I accept that community welfare officers in some areas have been exceptionally generous but, as the Deputies pointed out, there will be a delay in the final payment because the department concerned in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne when the dispute ends will have to contact the Department of Helath who in turn must get in touch with the health boards to ascertain the amount of money that has been paid out. I understand there is an arrangement whereby people can claim their pensions but from my inquiries few people are aware of those arrangements. I only became aware of them when listening to a radio programme. It is the duty of the Department of Social Welfare to make people aware through television advertisements and so on what they have to do pending a settlement of the strike.

I met a mother of seven children at one of my clinics who has not received any money for eight or nine weeks. Those people who are in receipt of an invalidity pension have not any savings to help them over this trying period. They are fortunate that the local shopkeepers have been very helpful. Those business people deserve our congratulations for aiding those pensioners. The Department should help pensioners who are suffering as a result of this strike. The emergency provisions should be advertised widely. We have all seen the television advertisements by the Department of the Public Service in recent weeks, and there is no reason why some of that time could not be given over to highlighting the emergency arrangements for pensioners. The situation is critical in my constituency and, in fact, along the western seaboard. Many of the people on pension through no fault of their own had to leave home to work in England for many years. It is regrettable that because of a strike by a number of people in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne they do not receive the pensions to which they are justly entitled. They are appealing to the Government for help.

Industrial action in the computer section of the Department of Health and Social Security, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, is currently affecting the payment of British retirement and widows pensions to approximately 300,000 overseas pensioners. The last payable orders were dispatched from Newcastle on Friday, 11 May 1984.

Alternative arrangements for payment during the currency of the industrial action have been made by the British authorities. To avail themselves of these alternative arrangements, however, it is necessary for the pensioners concerned to write to Overseas Group, Department of Health and Social Security, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne giving full identifying particulars and enclosing the counterfoil of the last payment received.

As soon as my Department became aware of the situation it got in contact with the British Department to try to ensure that the effects of the industrial action in individual pensioners is minimised. I do not have information as to the number of people who are affected. A number of those concerned would be in receipt of pension from my Department in addition to the British pension but a number would not be entitled to pension here where they did not have a sufficient record of Irish insurance and where the level of their British pension was such as to put them over the means limit for entitlement to a non-contributory pension.

In all cases, however, it is open to those concerned to apply to the local community welfare officer for assistance under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. The community welfare officers have been informed of the industrial action and are aware that they may be called on to provide temporary financial assistance in this situation.

Many people may be reluctant to seek assistance from the community welfare officer in cases like this and may feel that as pensioners they should not have to seek assistance in this way. There are others, mentioned by the Deputies, who feel that their British entitlement will be withheld when the dispute is settled pending a refund of the allowance. I should like to point out that no arrangements have been made either between the health boards and the British Department or between our Department and its British counterpart to withhold payments or refunds of this type. People in this position of course will have to give an undertaking that when they receive their arrears from the British authorities they will repay the amount out of the arrears.

In practice, however, there is no other option open to me to provide such financial assistance. Furthermore, the supplementary welfare allowance scheme was specifically designed to cater for emergencies. The basic reason for the reform of the old home assistance system and the introduction of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme was to have a uniform scheme across the board which would provide standard basic rates of assistance but which would also be flexible enough to deal with the short-term emergencies which can arise. People should be aware that the service is available to deal with situations of the sort which has arisen in this case, and I would hope that nobody who is in need of immediate financial assistance would refuse to seek such assistance or would feel that the service is not for them.

I do not have any information as to the likely duration of the present action. My Department are, however, keeping in touch with the British Department on the matter and will be aware of any developments. An announcement will be made whenever arrangements to resume normal payments have been agreed. In the meantime, however, pensioners can arrange for payment to be made to them under the special arrangements introduced by the British authorities. As those arrangements have been made by the British authorities it is not appropriate for the Irish authorities to advertise them, but I hope that one of the results of the Deputies raising this matter tonight will be that it will get sufficient press coverage to make people aware of the arrangements. I expect that Members will also bring those arrangements to the notice of those concerned. I would stress the necessity when writing to the UK Department to give as much detail as possible in order to enable the pension to be identified on the manual system — name and address, pension number, type and amount of pension, frequency of payment, date of last payment and counterfoil of that payment. In this way the case can be quickly identified and the alternative arrangements put in train without delay. Where a husband and wife are receiving separate pensions individual application should be made. That is the best system for those who can afford to wait a few weeks, but those who cannot should not delay in seeking assistance from community welfare officers. Those officers have been notified of the position and are prepared to deal with cases.

The other matter raised by Deputy Gallagher was the taking up of pension books for readjustment following increases in the UK rates. This is normally done following the increase in November. I am not aware of any widespread taking up of books for that purpose. There may be individual cases where books would be taken up for specific purposes. If there are cases where the Irish non-contributory pension book is in the Department of Social Welfare for any appreciable time the details should be brought to my notice and I will see that they are re-issued. I am assured that there could not be a large number of these books held in the Department, because the adjustments following the increase in the UK rates have been made and the books were re-issued some time ago.

The Minister has been very helpful. Would he consider having a number available in his Department to assist people who wish to get in contact under the terms he has outlined with the people in Newcastle-on-Tyne? Will he publish some advertisement or notice to the effect that people can get the supplementary welfare allowance or get in touch with this number?

I accept fully that the Minister has been helpful. Will he now be a little more helpful and agree to publish these advertisements? I beseech him to do so.

The information section of the Department will be only too willing to give all the information and advice necessary. There is difficulty in advertising, but my Department are pressing the United Kingdom Department to do so. They are making the arrangements and it is up to them to advertise them. We will do what we can.

Offer to pay for it as well.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28 June 1984.

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