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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Oct 1984

Vol. 352 No. 9

National Economic and Social Plan: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Tánaiste on Wednesday, 10 October 1984:
That Dáil Éireann approves the policies set out in the National Economic and Social Plan —Building on Reality.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"deplores the failure of the Government's National Economic Plan to provide a strategy for reducing the overall level of unemployment; condemns the continued refusal of the Government to establish tax equity, and particularly its failure to ensure an adequate return from the business, farming and self employed sectors; expresses serious concern at the additional cutbacks proposed in the public service; regrets the failure of the Government to take into account the principles expressed in the recently published Irish Congress of Trade Unions document,Confronting the Jobs Crisis; and believes that the plan is basically a restatement of unsuccessful social and economic policies pursued by previous governments”.
—(Tomás Mac Giolla).

Before Question Time I was referring to the attitude in this country regarding any company that makes a profit and saying that it is regarded as a great crime. I was making the point that the trade union movement in particular and other bodies must realise that the essence of our future development and progress is the ability of companies to make a profit; otherwise they will not set up here.

With regard to natural gas, there seems to be a problem between Fine Gael and Labour as to how much can be given to private enterprise. The Labour Party certainly do not want any of our natural resources handed over to private enterprise although private enterprise has the money to invest in the extension of natural gas into other areas. It is very important for the Minister for Energy to recognise that if people are prepared to put in their own money and take risks to bring natural gas to people that that would cut down on imports from other countries. We have adopted a somewhat dog in the manger attitude regarding offshore exploration and what happens if and when oil is discovered. We know that the big oil companies are not in business for love of any country but to make money. However, with a country of our size they can afford to wait as long as they wish before exploiting our resources. It is very important that a worthwhile deal should be worked out, not only for the country and the taxpayers but for the oil companies also. It must be a fair, equitable deal and we have a responsibility to get this moving because of the cost of oil imports which have to be paid for in dollars. Perhaps, if we had not been so greedy the interest on our dollar loans might not have been so high. I urge the Government to look at this area.

A national marketing organisation is needed more than the National Development Corporation. Yesterday I was at a meeting of the Dublin and Eastern Regional Tourist Board and this was the first meeting of that board since they amalgamated with Bord Fáilte and formed a new company. The underlying idea is that the cost of maintaining separate institutions will be considerably reduced. It is important that we do not stop at tourism. We must look at other areas also. If we had a big national marketing organisation which would encompass different spheres of activity and work on them it would benefit the whole country. Rationalisation is needed, cost benefit exercises in each of the enterprises which are separate and autonomous at present need to be examined.

One of the points which was made by Michael McNulty, Director General of Bord Fáilte, and which has made his work a lot easier is the agreement by the Government to allow them to budget over a three-year period. This enables them to plan ahead as they know exactly what will be at their disposal. It is a big step forward and he underlined that this was of enormous help to Bord Fáilte. The Government should look at other areas of semi-State bodies, CTT and the IDA and various other organisations, and see if they could bring them under one roof.

I should also like to deal briefly with the question of national wage agreements. Some years ago hardly a day passed without a strike. The then Government decided that national wage agreements were the way to overcome this difficulty and that even if you had to pay a little bit more for industrial peace, in the long run it worked to the advantage of the country because of the reduction in the number of strikes.

One of the side effects of this, which has not been to the benefit of the country, is that many companies which were in no position to pay the increases under the national wage agreement went to the wall. When talking about national wage agreements and discussions with the social partners, the Government must take into account the ability of industries to pay increases, particularly those which have a high labour content. It is easy enough for small factories or business enterprises which do not employ many people, having substituted machinery, to shoulder increases. One of the reasons for technology in factories progressing so much in later years is the high wage factor.

That is nonsense.

It is not.

It is. There is no factual basis for that statement.

Technology has put many people out of work simply because the factories, in order to remain competitive, had to keep in line with technological advances.

The lowest wages occur in labour intensive industries.

The Deputy no doubt will have his opportunity to speak. It is incumbent on all to understand that the ability of their company to pay increases in wages will have to be considered by themselves and the trade unions. A disadvantage following the granting of a higher wage increase is that those in the lower paid industries fall further and further behind and their standard of living is constantly falling. Years ago there was a debate about a minimum wage. This could never be agreed on because no sooner was a minimum wage agreed when those on that wage immediately looked for status increases over those below them. The scheme was not workable because the demand worked its way up. These status increases contributed very largely to our having a higher rate of inflation than any other country in Europe. These enormous rates of inflation have destroyed our competitiveness in many areas, although we are again becoming competitive. I am delighted that our exports are increasing in volume and value. This is important.

The dissent between urban and rural populations is of deep concern to me. At yesterday's meeting of the Dublin and Eastern Regional Tourism Board there were on that board urban and rural people. I noticed initially that there was a distrust between the rural and urban members and between rural members of different areas who were fighting their corner on particular issues on behalf of those they represented. It is all right to fight one's own corner, but by the end of the meeting distrust had built up. I would like more common membership between the IFA, the FUE, the IT&GWU and other trade union bodies. The present continuing strife between rural and urban interests must stop. We must all realise that we are in the same boat and that we have a responsibility to see that that boat does not sink. We must ensure that there is something to hand on to future generations and we must make the necessary sacrifices. Besides the worry of what to do next, most who lose their jobs in factories have had fathers and grandfathers working in that same factory and regret that their children will not. All these traditional places of employment are dying out and we must take a whole new look at that situation. We must remember the quotation that a house divided against itself cannot stand.

We also must seek a better understanding between the private and the public sectors. I notice a tremendous antagonism between those engaged in these sectors. We must understand each other's difficulties. People in the public sector must realise that they have secure employment and that, if the figures are still correct, it takes at least three people working in an industry to create one job in the public service. Every factory or business which closes down is bad news for the public service. It is important that those on the lower and middle levels of the public service understand that their future prospects depend on employment in productive areas in our economy.

The cutbacks in the public service recruitment campaign have been very harsh on many within that service who now find themselves loaded with much extra work. Their tax bill is the same and they are paying the same excessive tax on their overtime as anybody else. Most in the public service do, but some do not, realise that their salaries come from those who are working in the private sector as well as from their own contribution to the Exchequer. Progress will result only when somebody shows the nation what has to be done.

The plan is perhaps a little too modest. The Government may want people to say that at the end of three years they not only achieved their targets but exceeded them, but my philosophy is to strive a little harder, to reach for the moon and perhaps catch a star. Even if there were no plan at all, it would be possible to create 45,000 jobs by virtue of the improvement in the world economy. The recession certainly is declining in other areas.

We know that increased unemployment will continue not only in this century but into the next, because, firstly, of increased technology and, secondly, the increase in world population. The World Labour Organisation have stated that by the year 2010 they must create more extra jobs than exist at present throughout the world, to cater for that increase. The world population is increasing at a formidable rate and we are affected by the tides and currents of other countries. It is correct that increases in population lead to increased demand, but all those people cannot be accommodated in employment. The social welfare services of the countries involved are taxed to their limit to meet their obligations.

I said earlier that most of the employment targets will probably be achieved, even without this plan, if there is a continuing surge in world recovery. I have the highest hopes for the tourist industry over the next three years. The Government receive instant revenue from tourism. This year they received something like £275 million. At a talk which I attended with Aer Lingus on Tuesday of this week, I learned that 500,000 visitors have been here this year. That represents many people spending a great deal of money. As a director of Bord Fáilte said last night, those people spend the money over the counter and the Government have their share of the revenue within a very short time.

This country gives good value to visitors from Europe and America, but particularly from the USA because of the strength of the dollar. We should go to town to sell Ireland as a place to shop in. The value we give on clothing as compared with the USA is fantastic. A person from America could pay the fare here, take a holiday for a week or two and buy a new wardrobe of clothing and it would cost him or her less than a wardrope of clothing of similar quality would cost at home. We have something really big to offer. The Government were right to give a three-year budget figure to the Tourist Board. They should keep a very careful eye on this issue. We should capitalise on it. It is one of the best things we have going for us.

I hope the plan succeeds. I know everyone wants it to succeed. We are often called a nation of knockers, and it is said that we knock everything. The people need some hope, and something to look forward to for their children. They are entitled to an uplift and we should give it to them. I still believe in Ireland Limited. Ireland is the country of the future. There is a future for our people. We must work together, stop slagging each other and be as constructive as we can at whatever level of society we are in. It does not matter how lowly we are in society. We are one little country and we need the goodwill and hard work of everybody. Taxation policy past and present has prevented initiatives and made people sour about doing something for their country. We must do something to restore confidence. I urge the Government to implement sooner rather than later many of the recommendations in the Report of the Commission on Income Taxation.

I welcome this opportunity to speak on the plan which was published last week. It was long awaited due to its complex nature. It may be overdue because of a combination of factors, but finally it has arrived. I hope it will form the basis for stable government and improvements on many fronts over the next three years. I hope it will be the basis for stability and progress in the nineties and into the next century.

It will not be easy to implement all or any of the details in the plan but, with a common approach, a common outlook and all of us putting our hand to the wheel, much can be achieved. The plan is centred on the creation of jobs and a reduction in unemployment, and doing something about the taxation system. These targets will be difficult to achieve. Realistically we still have difficulties but, if all the various groups work together with no one acting unilaterally at the expense of the others, we can come through our difficulties.

We will be judged on how much of the plan we implement as soon as possible, by Christmas, in six months time and in one, two and three years time. Some of the elements in the plan should be implemented fairly quickly so that we can show that we have taken decisions and made improvements in the areas we have tackled. In other areas the targets set are slightly more long term and improvements will not be achieved overnight. With common action we can gradually work our way through the aims and the targets in the plan and achieve them.

We all hope for the provision of more jobs and the maintenance of people in jobs. The unemployment scene covers many people, young and old, people who never worked, people who are about to leave school or left school recently, people who have worked for a short time, and others who find themselves at the age of 40, 45 or 50 years out of a job. Given their age and the training they had, their prospects of getting a job are dim enough. I hope we can get people back to work. I hope the policy of the Government will keep people in jobs. We should be able to avail of markets in the EEC, in America and so on. It is important that we should make every effort in this regard.

We have to look long and hard at our education system with a view to reviewing it in certain areas where there are outdated modes and courses. These have to be changed. In the plan there is provision for a review of our education system and hopefully decisions on curricula and courses. Some courses may have been suitable in the fifties, sixties and even the seventies, but they are no longer valid. Anything that is not appropriate to the present day should be changed. I hope that when decisions are taken in accordance with the plan, they will be changed.

We have to look at the whole area of jobs, training and the various courses. We have to look at the agencies we are using to attract outside investors. We have to look at the incentives we are giving people to invest here. We have to make sure that initiative is rewarded and that we do not look on profit as an ugly word. We have to make it attractive for people to employ others. At present PRSI levels are very high and people think twice about employing others. Those levels have got worse steadily. That is not the fault of this Government, but I hope this Government will do something about them. We must make sure that we create a climate in which people will be encouraged to invest and as a result jobs will be created. We must see that as far as possible more and more people are taken off the dole queue and that people who come out of schools, colleges and training programmes will have jobs in the future. A certain emphasis must be placed on bodies such as the IDA who are seeking investment and perhaps they may consider new regulations. Industries different from the type set up by the IDA in the past may create more jobs. We must change with the times. We must be realistic and adaptable. When the IDA or other such bodies approach foreign investors we must be able to say that we can take these investors on board where heretofore we would not have been able to do so, that rules and regulations can change.

We must examine the role of our various youth employment schemes and the various bodies at present looking at the provision of jobs and we must look at the training courses being provided. There is no point in training a large number of people in certain courses if there is no real prospect of jobs for them at the end of the line. I hope that AnCO and other such bodies can extend their courses. I hope that they can make greater efforts and be given greater assistance towards providing jobs so that a person coming in to do a course can hope for a job at the end of it. I hope that the Minister present when replying can take some of these points on board in relation to courses now being provided. People come to us saying that they have done a training course but there is no job for them. I hope that these bodies are looking around with a view to availing of new schemes under which people will be able to work for two or three days in a week at the start and, if these people turn out to be a success, that they can then be taken on for the full week. Such a scheme could result in meaningful jobs. Heretofore people drawing assistance were available for work but could not work at the same time as they were drawing assistance. We must have a more flexible approach to this. We must examine areas where jobs can be created. I hope that new courses will result in meaningful jobs. There is no point in building up for so many jobs under a special scheme if something practical is not to come from it.

Another main element of the plan relates to the taxation system. The plan goes a certain distance in saying that taxation levels will not be increased or that the burden of personal taxation will not be increased above what it is now. While that is a desirable target, I hope that by the time we come to review the working of this plan in a few years' time we will have achieved even more than that. We must aim higher than what is contained in the plan. We must look at all our tax structures, our personal tax system, indirect taxation and all the taxes which make up our revenue. At the moment taxation is too high. We must get it down by as far as possible broadening the base. This can be achieved in various ways, even by getting money in more quickly. We hope the many tax evaders will be brought into the net. There are problems in relation to the complex tax system which we operate at present. I hope we can go some way down the road towards simplifying and making it equitable. Assessments are sent out from the tax offices which at times are ridiculous in the extreme. Then we start into the appeal procedure and long-running battles ensue between accountants or individuals and tax officials. Letters go back and forth seeking further information, all to do something which could have been sorted out in a few minutes if the tax inspector and the accountant or individual had sat down and thrashed it out. It ends up that what should have taken minutes or perhaps hours may take months or years.

I support measures to bring in tax evaders. On the other hand, many people get into this long-running battle over a simple claim. They may be looking for a rebate or a reasonable assessment and eventually months or years are wasted in solving the problem. Perhaps we can move towards a system which operates fairly successfully in the US, namely self-assessment, possibly by implementing some of the proposals of the report of the Commission on Taxation. We must get greater equity into our tax system and ensure that everyone pays his or her fair share. Particularly in relation to the PAYE sector and the self-employed I hope that a simpler system can be brought in.

At present we support six VAT rates ranging from 5 per cent to 35 per cent and this involves long hours of book work by individuals and small businesses who must make sure that their tax returns are up to date. We must, as the plan indicates, work towards a system of one or two rates, perhaps eventually one rate. There would be difficulties in that because some items are highly rated at the moment. We must get a balance in this. Some items carry a punitive rate and when we look at prices across the Border it is little wonder that people are going up there to shop.

I will try to deal briefly with a few other items mentioned in the plan. We must review the whole management and operation of the public sector to get in some areas a more efficient and effective service. Many civil servants give long hours of diligent work to this country and I pay my special tribute to them, but in some areas we can get a better return, and for the taxpayer paying his mammoth bill we must do so. I hope that with some of the reforms introduced by the Minister for the Public Service, Deputy Boland, improvements have taken place. However, much remains to be done. Much must be done in the semi-State sector to get away from the approach of an open chequebook policy. We have got to look at areas where money is being wasted or where we are not getting the best return for our investments. We must look at organisations that are outdated and are carrying out objectives given 30 or 40 years ago which do not apply to the eighties.

As a member of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies I have learned of areas where money has been squandered and the public did not get a good return for the money spent. Hard decisions will have to be made in regard to some of those organisations. We must ensure that organisations using taxpayers' money operate on commercial lines. In the coming months I hope those bodies are investigated so as to identify any duplication of services or services that would be better if operated by a private concern. The objectives of some of those groups will have to be reviewed in the light of the needs of the present day. Many areas of the public service have been improved but a lot remains to be done. The taxpayers who must pay the bill are entitled to an efficient and effective service. We are not asking people to do more than work to the best of their ability but there must be reward for the high price taxpayers have to pay.

The question of local government reform is dealt with in the plan. Such reform is long overdue, particularly in the Dublin area. I accept that it will not be easy to carry out such reform throughout the country because of historical problems and so on but we must make a start. It will not simply be a case of redrawing boundaries because we must consider what we want local authorities to do. We must ensure that services are provided and that local amenities are maintained.

I understand that four or five separate bodies will be responsible for Dublin city and county. We have always had a problem in my constituency because part of Dun Laoghaire is the responsibility of Dublin County Council and the major portion of it the responsibility of Dun Laoghaire Borough Corporation. Local authorities must prepare realistic housing programmes because in the past they have found themselves in competition with private interests for the purchase of land for housing. Housing lists must be reviewed also. I accept that all people are entitled to proper housing but we must make a start in the area of local authority housing. It is possible that the proposal in the plan to give a grant of £5,000 to local authority tenants who decide to purchase a private house will mean that more people will be encouraged to buy their own property. There should be further encouragement by way of assistance to such people in their early years of occupation of their new houses. Housing lists in Dublin city and county are full and because of a shortage of land it is becoming more difficult to cater for the people on them. In my area there is a conflict as to whether available land should be retained for amenity purposes or used for building houses. Future plans should provide for play areas and so on. Planning authorities, and forestry interests, should be involved in all local authority housing schemes. At present a county council may make a tree preservation order only to have it revoked by the planning authority. We must ensure that in such matters one group does not act without the knowledge of another interested group. Any local government reform must deal with planning. I hope the proposals for local government reform are implemented before the local elections next year. However, I am not suggesting that the reform should be rushed through without giving it full consideration. Many of the archaic systems that exist in regard to water schemes and so on should be changed.

I welcome the suggestion that a national lottery be held. Details of the proposal are sketchy but I have no doubt that it will raise much needed money for local authorities. I suggest that those in charge of the lottery seek the advice of groups that have been running lotteries successfully for years. The proceeds from such a lottery should be given to local communities. Sporting organisations, and others, who seek assistance for community projects should be helped by the proceeds of such a lottery. I accept that the Minister is inundated with requests for financial assistance for worthy causes but we must remember that with the change in work practices people will have more leisure time available. Some of the proceeds of the national lottery should be devoted to the erection of community halls, football pitches and other facilities that will keep our young people occupied and ensure that they stay out of trouble.

Another matter of vital importance in the report is tourism. An efficient tourism industry will mean many more jobs and it is possible that some tourists, having sampled the facilities available here, will decide to return and establish industries. The greatest element in tourism is value for money. In many areas we give it but in many others we do not. There are many reasons for that. For instance, there are over-greedy people who think they have a good thing going for them and are trying to keep it up. We must look at the value we give to tourists in hotels, guest houses and other accommodation because if tourists can say they have got good value for money they will speak about it afterwards and come back. Some people here say that it is easier and cheaper to go to Spain or elsewhere because transport there and back plus their accommodation would cost them less than if they spent their holidays in some parts of Ireland. I emphasise "some parts" because there is good value for money in many areas. Bord Fáilte do much good promotional work and try to encourage value for money throughout the State.

The Government can play a part in this because they get back money in tax and it pays them to attract tourists. I spoke to a hotelier last night who said that VAT rates on sleeping accommodation, food and drink can run up a bill by more than 40 per cent. This should be looked at carefully to see if the tax content could be reduced. It would help to attract more tourists.

There are other matters in regard to tourism that we must keep in mind. I have been spoken to about the proposed extension in drinking hours. Though there is no firm proposal it has been suggested that closing time should be 1 a.m. We must look long and hard at this before we make a change. We must consider whether it will attract tourists or whether it will be availed of only by domestic drinkers. At the moment many of the latter go out late at night to have a few drinks. Perhaps now with longer hours they will stay longer in pubs. Therefore, we must look at the logic of the proposal. It is proposed to reduce the price of whiskey and the suggestion is that it will not deter tourists. That may be so, but will the reduced prices be for the good of everybody else?

We must look at our transport facilities. Someone told me recently that when people went from the North Wall to Liverpool there were fleets of buses at the other end to take them into the city but that when they returned there was only one bus and it was every man and woman for himself and herself. Therefore, we must look at the entire transport area in conjunction with tourism as well as for domestic accommodation. There has been much reference to what will happen when CIE are broken up. I hope the new structures will lead to more efficiency. If the DART service proves to be efficient and if the trains and link services are there when required many people would gladly leave their cars at home except, possibly, at weekends. However, the service must be reliable both mornings and evenings.

There have been many strikes, some wild-cat and some by groups of individuals. We must make it clear that we want an efficient public transport service. I hope that the new Dublin Transport Authority will reform the city's transport.

Parking facilities will have to be improved. People going to the taxation office at River House to do their legitimate business find when they return to their parked cars that they have been given parking tickets. There is a severe lack of parking facilities in that area and it should be examined quickly.

I wish to refer briefly to matters concerning my constituency. First of all, it is stated in the plan that a decision in regard to Dún Laoghaire will be expedited. It is long overdue and I hope the programme for the development of the town and harbour will be implemented as soon as possible in conjunction with local government reform. Whether the authority will be called the harbour authority or something else, I hope it will make better use of the harbour and the entire area. The name does not matter as long as the authority work for the good of the people, locally and nationally. Many such authorities have great names because of the efficient service they render but others with highfalutin' names do very little.

I welcome the work on the Blackrock/Shankill by-pass. The roads are chock-a-block with traffic resulting in huge bottlenecks. The Cabinteely by-pass when completed will be of great help and will ease traffic congestion for both tourists and local business and commercial interests. I hope the work will be expedited because it is urgent and long overdue. It is in the plan to be dealt with, I hope sooner than later.

I support the objectives of the plan which has set certain realistic targets in regard to areas which require immediate attention. In other areas it will take longer. It is important that we have a decisiveness which we may have lacked in the past. It is important that we have the courage and conviction to carry our promises through and get down to the job over the next few years. It is as much the responsibility of backbenchers, Opposition Members and the public to do this as it is the responsibility of the Government. The Opposition may disagree with certain matters and they are entitled to voice their opinions but I hope that in the national interest they will not play politics with it all the time.

We face many difficulties in the months and years ahead. It is only by a combination of effort that we will solve our problems. No one interest can look for a way out or something over the odds if they do not deserve it. We can come through the difficulties ahead.

In today's Irish Independent it was stated that as far as the general public is concerned judgment would be passed on the way the plan is implemented. It stated that politicians have a right and duty to analyse important policy decisions if only to make sure that some hitherto unnoticed weakness in any decision is discovered and brought to light. The man in the street will wait and see if his lot is improved over the next few years. If he gives the thumbs down sign we will have a different Government after three years.

With the Government's honesty, commitment and leadership we can tackle the objectives in the plan and will come through. We will be able to go to the country and say: "We have come this far; let us continue." I hope the country will respond with confidence to the plan. It sets many targets and objectives. Some of them can be easily achieved but others will take longer. It is important that we all act in the national interest. At times we have had a divide over issues for political reasons. There are some people who will advocate a catch-all policy and they will be believed. Unfortunately that kind of policy is responsible for many of our present problems. Despite some individuals promising to keep white elephants white we will resist that temptation. I hope the public will react favourably and give the Government a generous response to their task in the years ahead.

This plan is building on reality and we must give it a realistic assessment. We must examine it closely. The plan is strong on stage management but it is weak on what it is supposed to be strong on — reality. I had hoped that some flesh would be put on certain areas but except for the Minister for the Environment who explained many of the aspects of the plan as they related to his portfolio, other speakers dealt very little with the dark and cloudy areas.

We must make allowance for the wishful thinking of both parties in their desperate positions. Fine Gael were within days of their Ard Fheis. Many of the claims made for the plan are misleading. Given that the plan was a last minute series of compromises to keep the Government in office it contains little good and little bad. The plan is an alannah machree's dog — it goes a little of the way with everyone.

In the heady days after the launching of the plan a Minister stated that the land tax was inserted because of the campaign conducted against the tax by the leader of a farmers' organisation. I am not expressing support for the tactics used by that person but I am shocked that a punishment for verbal dissent should be deliberately written into a national plan. Are we to take it that if Members on this side of the House object, for example, to taxation of children's footwear such would be automatically introduced as a punishment for our dissent? The Taoiseach should make it clear that punishment for dissent is not part of Government policy.

In the euphoric days after the launching of the plan the impression was given that by a first degree miracle all our problems were solved. Unemployment, health service cutbacks, the wrecked building industry, the undeveloped agricultrue sector and so on would all disappear in the haze following the national plan.

There are a number of points which I welcome. The Minister for the Environment mentioned the £5,000 scheme. It was welcomed more so when he said it was for new and secondhand houses. He mentioned the need for repair of the local authority housing stock and laid great emphasis on the rent subsidy. He has made an effort to simplify the purchase of houses by tenants of local authority housing. Valuable Government resources will now be saved and can be channelled into building more houses. The plan mentioned conveyancing and stated that efforts will be made to expedite this and also expedite loans for house purchase.

The Minister mentioned the allocation of £125 million for roads but he did not say whether this would be spent on national primary or national secondary roads. He did not say whether they would secure pound for pound from the EEC or whether he would give a much needed allocation for the block grants. Due to the lower allocation and the block grants for county main roads, the surface of many of them is deteriorating. It is important that funding for such roads is substantially increased otherwise some roads which have not had a surface dressing for the last few years will be beyond repair. There is another point of great importance.

It is ironic that at a time when we are discussing the national plan the error in the milk production estimates should come to light. Yesterday Deputy Noonan tabled a question to the Minister for Agriculture in this regard and the Minister's reply was that the Council decision on the super-levy issue provided specifically that the basic Irish quota should equal our 1983 deliveries. Irrespective of the decision taken yesterday at EC level, we must hope that the Council will accept the revised figures. The Minister told us yesterday also that the figures used in the Council regulation were based on the latest provisional figures available, the 5.28 million tonnes. The Council should not be in the position of having to accept the revised figures because the actual figures are supplied on a monthly basis and the milk plants have a statutory obligation to make those returns. I understand that in mid-February 1983, the actual figures would have been available and that was long before the super-levy matter was finalised. Therefore, we on this side of the House cannot accept from the Minister that the mistake was due to provisional rather than factual figures being available. I was associated with the dairy industry for many years before coming here and I know that there are no statistics more readily available than those from individual co-operatives. Because of the position we were in prior to and during the negotiations, co-ops were very careful to give precise and factual information. That was a time when we were doing our best to get sanction for the production of every gallon of milk possible.

What has happened is an indication of gross inefficiency at the highest level. It must reduce our credibility in the EC. The supply of erroneous figures is a body blow to all concerned. One can only hope that after all this bungling the Minister will succeed in having the matter rectified so that we will not lose £12 million by reason of the error.

I am concerned about the situation in my area where there are smaller suppliers than is the case in Leinster and Munster. Supposedly there is an extra allocation in respect of those lesser producing areas, but the Minister for Agriculture at his party's Ard-Fheis seemed to be apprehensive as to the Connacht co-op meeting their target. I would fear that in such a situation the Minister would penalise other co-ops in Connacht and Ulster. There are a number of efficient co-ops who have been major developers in the area of agriculture in Cavan and Monaghan and who have targeted for the full quota. They will exceed the quota and it would be very serious if, because perhaps the western co-ops had not reached their quotas, these other co-ops were penalised. I appeal to the Minister to resist any pressure that might be brought to bear by the big six co-ops who might be seeking the additional amounts without regard to their poor relations in the west and north-west.

If the Ceann Comhairle were here I am sure he would agree with me because his sympathy would lie with the small man. In Cavan there are about 13,000 holdings. These are from one acre upwards but of those only 148 were in excess of the £100 valuation under the PLV system while the corresponding figure for Monaghan was 60 out of a total number of 10,500 holdings. Only 760 holdings in Cavan and 831 in Monaghan were assessed under the PLV system at £50. They would be holdings of about 50 adjusted acres within the terms of the plan. These figures illustrate the serious problem that would arise if the promise made in respect of the co-ops in these areas is not adhered to. No co-op in the north-east should suffer by reason of a co-op in the west not making the full use of their quotas.

This plan has already been the subject of much discussion, but let us recall that in 1981 a western development programme, which we were told would mean a £300 million injection into the west of Ireland, was launched. This programme was on foot of EC directive 78/528. As representatives of that region we saw in the programme a great opportunity not only for the development of agriculture but for the development of the whole region, whether in terms of industrial based projects, or otherwise. That plan was outlined in great detail and was being funded from the EC, but if one examines the results one finds that in many areas, expecially in the area of land improvement, our expectations have not been fulfilled.

Not since the scheme was implemented in 1981 has there been one application processed in respect of western drainage. In January last the Government announced that no further applications would be received for participation in the western drainage scheme. In the Cavan-Monaghan area about 1,500 people applied for participation in the scheme. There is a promise now that that programme will be re-introduced in 1986. This live horse and you will get grass attitude is not of much help to the farmer who is waiting for the opportunity of being able to prepare his land for production. If we were to be projected tomorrow into 1986 in what year, we might ask, would the 700 applications in respect of Monaghan be completed?

There was provision also in that programme for rural water supplies. While funding has been made available for very necessary group water schemes, which have meant a great deal to many people, some groups are now seeking additional funding. They are seeking second grants for the renewing of equipment and piping.

In my county there have been delays of up to ten years with regard to the local improvement schemes but it was expected that the fund in respect of agricultural roads would be of great benefit. Some of the money was allocated to county councils for county roads but they came under the heading of "Farm roads" and received only half the allocation.

I wish to refer to the scheme in respect of subsidised electricity for farmers who require additional supply in respect of larger motors or cooling equipment in milk plants. It applies also in respect of tank storage of milk. When the scheme was introduced it was fairly liberal and if a farmer built a new house on his holding that was allowed. However, it is now very restrictive and its value has diminished considerably.

The calf-to-beef scheme has been in operation for some years but only 31 applicants have been approved for the 12 western counties. That also was a scheme of which much was expected.

The major disappointment was in respect of afforestation. A sum of £18 million was allocated for private afforestation. It is accepted that it is the only product in the EC of which there is a scarcity and where it is expected there will be a scarcity in the years to come. I had hoped that the plan would have dealt with the development of our natural resources and would have referred to our potential in forestry, peat, and the production of fruit and vegetables. All of those areas are crying out for development and for leadership to ensure a reduction in imports.

In the first two years of the afforestation scheme only £55,500 was taken up in the first year and in 1983 the sum was £38,500. These amounts are out of an allocation that should have been of the order of £1.8 million. Private afforestation is crying out for development. It makes one wonder if it is a good idea to have it under the auspices of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry and it also makes one wonder if they are going to set up private afforestation in competition with themselves. The Government should do what they did in the case of An Post and Bord Telecom. It should be taken from the Department and put in the charge of a dynamic person who would make a success of private afforestation. We were told that from 1984 onwards we would export timber but last year, because we have not the equipment or the capacity to process the timber, we exported 370,000 tonnes of logged timber, much of which was re-imported for fencing posts, as sawn timber and so on.

We have a plan for western development but in the past three years it has fallen on its face. We have asked the Ministers concerned many questions but we are always told the matter will be reviewed. It should not take such a long time. If the conditions and regulations are so restrictive that people cannot avail of schemes they should be told the facts clearly. We must be frank and honest with them. The development of our resources generally should be a matter of priority.

The plan claims to have dealt with agriculture but this is not the case with respect to small holdings. It is not a new problem but it has been aggravated by the adoption of the milk super-levy, restrictive price policies and the widening application of guaranteed thresholds. The plan talks about greater efficiency to ensure that farm profitability is maximised but it is another matter to achieve those objectives. What is needed is education and leadership. With the future so uncertain for the man with a small holding it is difficult to generate interest in education and this is where leadership is essential. Unless we are given the kind of imaginative leadership that is required this problem will remain. It would be pleasant to say we are getting that leadership in agriculture, but that is not the case.

The recent squabble in the Government regarding the land tax is indicative of the lack of effective leadership. Failure to look at the whole agricultural scene is at the root of the problem. To take one sector and make it efficient will not have any worthwhile effect on the overall efficiency in the agricultural scene. Efficiency in all branches of agriculture must be raised if we are to achieve the results we want. The Government in their plan have stated that they believe efforts to accelerate growth in agricultural output must concentrate on that segment that has real development potential. They told us that ACOT are being asked to concentrate their advisory services on those farmers who have the resources and motivation to achieve such development.

The thinking behind the Government plan is that all the funding would be channelled towards the 50,000 people in the top category of farmers. It is a philosophy I have always opposed because I believe that has always been our downfall. About 25 per cent of our farmers are in that bracket and they must be given credit for what they have done in management development. However, we cannot forsake the other farmers who need help by paying almost exclusive attention to farmers who least need such attention. This kind of selectivity will ensure that a large proportion of farmers will never be helped to increase efficiency. If such a policy of selective attention applied in education it would involve concentrating on the few top pupils while leaving the others to fend for themselves. I referred also to the question of import substitution.

Debate adjourned.
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