Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Oct 1984

Vol. 353 No. 3

Report of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism: Motion.

Dr. Woods

I move:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of the Third Report of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism: The decriminalisation of certain offences under the Vagrancy Acts."

To put the motion in perspective, the committee have already brought one report to the Dáil, that was the report on neighbourhood watch. I am glad to be able to say that we have had very good relations with the Garda in relation to that report and that the pilot studies which the Minister and the Commissioner have been engaging in are going fairly well. We are anxious that these studies would advance more rapidly during the months ahead.

We consider our first report to have been very valuable. The report we are talking of today is our third report. Our second report deals with the role of customs officers in the control of drug trafficking. That report will be before the House shortly though in a sense it has been before the House to the extent that it was availed of during discussions on the Misuse of Drugs Act.

We expect a further report, our report on controls on private security firms to be finalised, if not next week, during the following week. Another report that we will be bringing before the House relates to our visit to Scotland Yard. In that respect we have prepared a fairly detailed report which we think will be useful to Members. That, too, will be available next week.

There are being prepared also by the committee reports on three other areas. One of these is on the matter of drug-related crime. Members will appreciate that this is a very important area. It is one the committee considered should receive priority. We have also almost completed our report on community policing which is the much broader aspect of policing in the community and beyond the narrower concept of neighbourhood policing. We have brought before the House already our report on the neighbourhood watch system. We are also studying the question of Garda recruitment and training. It is in this whole context that we bring this report to the House today.

I am pleased, as chairman of the committee, to have the opportunity of moving this motion. I wish to pay tribute to all members of the committee for the effort they are putting into their work and for the forthright way in which they are discussing the problems confronting us. It is as a result of that attitude that a number of important matters have been highlighted and I am confident that we are making reasonable progress in the various areas.

The fact that sleeping rough and begging are criminal offences was brought to the immediate attention of the committee by the Simon Community. In their submission they recommended that these offences be removed from the area of criminal law. The Simon Community devote their energies to the care and welfare of homeless people. They are of the view that begging and sleeping rough are in the main social problems and should be dealt with by society in a humane and sympathetic manner. They estimate that there are about 3,000 homeless in the Twenty-six Counties and a further 1,000 in Northern Ireland. As no official figures are available it is not possible for us to comment on the Simon figures. However, the Simon Community meet more than 1,000 homeless people in their night shelters each year, while other homeless can be found sleeping rough or in hostels or other night shelters. They are found, too, in prisons and in psychiatric units of hospitals. It is clear from the evidence that the Simon Community put before us that there is a serious problem in this area.

The Vagrancy Act of 1829 which applies to Ireland contains various provisions in relation to other matters as well as begging and sleeping rough. The Act provides:

Every person wandering abroad or placing himself or herself in any public place, street, highway or passage to beg or gather alms or causing or procuring or encouraging any child or children so to do, shall be deemed an idle and disorderly person within the meaning of this Act, and.... Every person wandering abroad and lodging in any barn or out-house, or in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or wagon not having any visible means of support and not giving a good account of himself or herself... shall be deemed to be a rogue and a vagabond, within the true intent and meaning of this Act.

Both these offences carry a maximum penalty on first conviction of a fine or three months imprisonment.

The Garda Commissioner's Report on Crime for 1983 shows that proceedings were taken against 412 people under the Vagrancy Acts. While begging accounted for 164 proceedings a breakdown of the other offences is not available but it is considered that sleeping rough accounted for a significant proportion.

It seems that the Simon contention that being homeless is a crime is borne out in that people are being pursued by the Garda under the criminal law. However, society feels that it must be protected from the activities of persons who beg and sleep rough, especially if this is done persistently. We are all aware of instances where the Garda do not prosecute people but rather request them to move on and to desist from begging. While many people may have to beg in order to acquire food, there are others who have some means of support and yet resort to begging. Some form of sanction must be available to society to deal with offenders who in certain cases cause more than just a visual offence. Some, by their persistence, can jostle and intimidate people.

There are many other individuals and organisations involved in helping the homeless. None of these made any submissions to the committee on this topic and the members felt that it would be very worthwhile to hear what they have to say on this question. Do they see a problem with the law as it stands at present? Is it possible that a more discretionary approach to the exercise of the powers under this Act would alleviate the problems encountered at present and yet leave the legislation in existence to cope with the more serious or persistent type of offender? If any person is interested in letting us have their views they should communicate with the Clerk to the Committee.

After our meeting with representatives of the Simon Community we began to consider the views they expressed to the committee on the desirability of decriminalising begging and sleeping rough. We learned that this topic was also under consideration in the Law Reform Commission and that progress had been made towards producing a working paper. We felt that it would be very useful if the deliberations of this body were available to us before we took a definite line in relation to these offences. Members of the House generally had asked for views in relation to this area since the question was raised and they were looking for background material.

With regard to the position in the United Kingdom, the laws relating to vagrancy and other street offences were considered by a Home Office working party on vagrancy and street offences who produced a working paper in 1974 and a report in 1976. The Home Affairs Committee of the House of Commons using the working paper and report as a starting point, considered this topic, had meetings with the police and organisations for the homeless and produced a report on vagrancy offences in May 1981.

The position was the same as exists here at present except that in the case of sleeping rough an amending Act in 1935 provides that the defendant must have declined to use free shelter or must have caused damage. The Home Affairs Committee went on to accept that the criminal law must play a part in controlling the activities of beggars and vagrants. However, they recommended that the penalty of imprisonment for such offences should be abolished and this was done in the United Kingdom Criminal Justice Act of 1982. Therefore, the United Kingdom have abolished the penalty of imprisonment for such offenders.

Because of the fact that the Law Reform Commission are examining this topic the committee decided that it should await the outcome of their deliberations before taking any final decision on the proposal to decriminalise begging and sleeping rough. Nevertheless, the members are concerned that while there is often a need to remove persons from begging and sleeping rough there should be an alternative to imprisonment. Some intermediate facilities, such as a hostel, should be available and only in the event of failure to avail of such facilities should resort be had to imprisonment.

An excellent example of society dealing with these problems, rather than through the criminal law, is the action taken by the Dublin Itinerant Settlement Committee, with the financial support of the Eastern Health Board, to provide accommodation at Trudder House for boys and at Derrlossary for girls in County Wicklow. The majority of these young people had formerly been begging and sniffing glue in O'Connell Street. They came from broken homes in both the itinerant and settled communities. They have an example by providing facilities and staff and have proved that a number of those glue sniffers and young people who are wandering about and begging, especially in O'Connell Street, can find a new way of life. This was done first for boys and, very recently, for girls. They have been running this programme for the past few years and it is working very well. I hope it continues to be successful, although one cannot expect miracles. I have no doubt that this is the direction we should be taking not only in this area but in other social problem areas where people are sleeping rough and begging. These young people now have an opportunity to grow, learn and develop in a positive and constructive environment. The majority no longer constitute a legal problem. The report also indicates where solutions might be found for many adults who are at present begging and sleeping rough and to whom the Vagrancy Acts can be applied.

This report is submitted to Dáil Éireann for the information of Members and to provide some background information in relation to the law on this topic as it stands at present. It will enable Members of either House to be better informed of the position in relation to the offences of begging and sleeping rough if and when such matters arise in either House. We have left our final conclusions on that matter until we receive the report which we believe will be available shortly from the Law Reform Commission.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Noonan,

Limerick East): First I should like to welcome this report which arises from a submission made by the Simon Community to the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism. The report deals with a particular area of the Vagrancy Acts, namely, the effects of the criminal law in so far as it relates to homelessness and vagrancy. If I might clarify the position — the Vagrancy Acts, as they are called, are not in general concerned with vagrancy as the term is understood today, but deal to a large extent with conduct which is not particularly associated with homelessness or vagrancy. For example, section 4 of the Vagrancy Act, 1824, which is the only section of that Act which applies to Ireland, contains offences which are divided into four categories. Firstly, we are primarily concerned with those offences which are committed largely by “vagrants”, such as wandering abroad without any visible means of support and failing to give a good account of oneself. The second category includes offences against what used to be called the “Poor Law” such as failure to maintain your wife and children. Thirdly there are offences committed by professional criminals such as being found in possession of house breaking equipment, and finally, section 4 of the 1824 Act includes offences against public decency and morals.

In the context of homelessness the offences which have received most public comment are the offences of wandering abroad, or "sleeping rough" as it is more commonly known, and begging, the latter being contained in the 1847 Vagrancy Act. The offences of loitering with intent — until it was held to be unconstitutional in the case of King versus A.G. (1981) Irish Reports — also aroused public comment.

I have had reason to consider these offences on a number of occasions since I became Minister, firstly in the context of a parliamentary question in relation to the Vagrancy Act, 1824, which is at present on the Order Paper of this House, and also in the context of a Private Member's Bill which was introduced in Seanad Éireann and which proposed to repeal certain offences in the 1824 Vagrancy Act. Without wishing to pre-empt my answer to the parliamentary question I have mentioned, the view that I have formed in relation to the Private Member's Bill is the same as that formed by the Select Committee and expressed in paragraph 4.3 of the report we are now discussing, that is, that as the Law Reform Commission are at present examining the law on vagrancy it would be premature to consider making any changes in the law in this area prior to the receipt of the commission's final recommendations. Quite an amount of work, I understand, has been done in the commission on the matter and I understand that a revised draft working paper on the Vagrancy Acts is before the commission at present for their consideration.

While I appreciate the concern of the Simon Community and others in relation to the plight of the homeless — and I would like to take this opportunity to express my own appreciation of the work of the Simon Community in this area — their present proposals to decriminalise homelessness and begging have not resulted from the kind of comprehensive review of the law which one can expect the Law Reform Commission to provide. Such a review which would take into account both the social and criminal aspects of the matter would appear to be necessary before embarking on amending legislation. I know that the committee's view is similar to that.

Before finishing, I would like to refer to one matter. The report expresses the view that resort should be had to imprisonment in a sleeping rough case only where a person liable to be charged refuses to avail himself of hostel accommodation. In this connection I would like to advert to the fact that health boards have a responsibility in law to provide institutional assistance for a person who is unable to provide maintenance for himself or his dependants. This assistance can be in the form, for example, of casual wards, provision of hostels or, alternatively, the giving of grants to voluntary bodies to provide hostels. There is, however, some overlapping of responsibilities between health boards and housing authorities. In an effort to clarify their respective roles, an ad-hoc committee was set up some time ago by the Minister for Health, as Deputies will probably be aware. I understand that the report from this committee is imminent.

Finally, arising out of a comment by Deputy Woods, the Garda do not maintain separate figures for the different types of offences under the Vagrancy Act. A random check within the inner Dublin city area, where the majority of sleeping rough offences are committed, revealed that there were no such prosecutions in 1982 and that in 1983 there were eight. That might help in some way to give an indication of the range of prosecutions and the scope of the problem in that sense. There is not a large number of sleeping rough prosecutions, from that indication. The House may be interested to know that in 1983 there were some convictions also for begging. However, the attention of the House is directed more to the sleeping rough prosecutions than to the others.

Again I should like to thank the committee. We shall be awaiting with interest the final report of the Law Reform Commission on this subject.

Mr. Barrett

(Dublin North-West): I should like very much to welcome this report and to thank all those who worked on it, particularly Deputy Woods. I am very concerned, indeed, at the number of people who are homeless in this city and look forward to the day when they will be able to get a home.

Many citizens of this city have expressed the same concern as I feel about the number of people begging on the streets, many of whom are itinerants. They do not come from poor families. Some are brought in very expensive cars and placed in different positions around the city to collect money. Not alone do they do that, but many are involved in stealing handbags and intimidating people going about their business. I hope to see the day when that will end. You do not see that in any other city.

I am even more concerned about the number of people who are not homeless but can be seen around the city at evening time and at weekends and who, when you park your car, approach you. Many do not want to pay them but feel they have no option. They are afraid that when they come back to their cars they will find them damaged. I do not know of any other city in the world where this attitude is tolerated. The Garda and the Minister have a responsibility in this field. I have brought this to the attention of the Minister's predecessor and of the Garda Commissioner and to date nothing has been done about it. I understand that the people of whom I am speaking have no authorisation whatsoever from the Garda Síochána or from anybody else to act in that fashion.

The citizens of this city should be free to come and go, park their cars and go around the city, perhaps shopping, without being intimidated by anybody. If there is a need for this type of parking service the Garda Síochána or the Minister would appoint people to do it. In one part of the city one of those people was operating in the middle of the day, directing people to park cars illegally and a traffic warden came along and put tickets on those cars. That is very unfair to the car owners. Anybody who comes to visit in a hospital or to attend a social function or a football match in Croke Park should not be approached by such people. Many visitors are horrified by this. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that the streets of Dublin are cleared of these nuisances. If this type of service is required, the Minister and his Department could give authority for its operation.

I ask the Minister to see that as far as possible all those who are begging around the city are prevented from so doing and that the Garda take immediate action. There is also the high rate of pickpocketing, with organised gangs operating and posing a very difficult job for the Garda. More plain clothes gardaí should be put on the beat to try to eliminate this problem.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The committee have spent a good deal of time considering a number of different matters and this is one of the reports which they have issued. I regret to say, as vice-chairman of the committee, that this is probably one of the weakest, and perhaps will be the weakest, to come from the committee. This is mainly because of the lack of submissions from bodies other than the Simon Community and because of the absence of the Law Reform Commission's report. We are all awaiting this report. Perhaps if the Law Reform Commission did not get themselves caught up so much in banning foreign divorce, for example, and gave more attention to some more immediate problems such as vagrancy and begging, we would be able to proceed here with legislation to deal with this important area.

The report is urgently needed and I put out a plea to the Law Reform Commission to bring it forward. With that report and the submissions which have been received, we will have the legislative requirements to deal with this area.

There is a problem with begging in the Dublin area. It has been remarked on by many foreign visitors, mainly Americans. Sometimes also one meets people when abroad and one is told that one of the things recalled about Dublin is the number of people begging on the streets, which can be very embarrassing.

I do not want to come down on anybody who is in need. However, my experience, from people who come to my clinic, is that the State have the machinery to assist them through supplementary assistance, if not through the social welfare system. In many cases it is an abuse because many of the people who are begging are not in financial need. It is a type of business income which is organised, in some cases by the parents of very young children.

This is a very distasteful area to get into and it is not a very pleasant area to look at, but we must deal with it fairly. It is very easy to come in here and condemn all those who are begging, but when we try to give these people premanancy within the community by some form of settlement, by trying to integrate them into the community and by getting them to change their social behaviour, the Deputies who have very definite views about begging are the same people who will resist any form of settlement of these people in the community.

I realise there are many people begging on the streets of Dublin who should be stopped because it is not a case of poverty, but if we want to stop parents sending their children out begging, we must try to integrate these families into the community. That means settlements, halting sites, and having these children attending school with our children. The Deputies who want the beggars off the streets are the most vociferous in resisting itinerant settlements in any part of their constituencies. If we are not prepared to have settlements and halting sites in our communities we cannot expect these people to become integrated in our community.

The Minister mentioned that the offence of loitering with intent was unconstitutional. That is a sad fact because one of our biggest problems outside the inner city is the gangs of youths, who are neither homeless nor vagrant, congregating, abusing and intimidating women and children, and particularly old people, and the Garda do not have the power to move them on. These gangs congregating at certain points are regular occurrences. We had the teddyboys and the punks era and then things settled down. The offence of loitering with intent was found to be unconstitutional at a time when the population had settled down. We should look at this area again because it would be a great help if a garda could tell a group to move on. This would mean that we would not need to take these people before the courts. This could be a very effective way of dealing with the problem.

I do not see the point in imprisoning people who are homeless. This is simply providing them with a place at great expense when we should be providing for them at a much lower cost. The committee asked if this offence should be decriminalised. I think it should, except if it is an offence which endangers somebody, or is an offence against decency, against children or something like that. Prison is not the place for the homeless.

I suggest that somebody in the Department and the clerk of the Select Committee of the Dáil prepare an index of these reports. There is no point in the Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism making a series of reports; hopefully another report will come before the House next week. If we had an index of these reports we could request information on progress which has been made and when we want to see what action has been taken in specific areas.

Mr. Wallace

I welcome the report. This committee have devoted a lot of time to preparing this report. They have covered community watch, drug-related crimes and so on. This is another report which will be welcomed by the House. The committee were wise to wait until the Law Reform Commission had examined this problem and their report was made known. With so many people identified as homeless, this is of great concern to all, particularly legislators who are very involved in taking decisions to deal with that problem.

Many groups and organisations are playing their part on behalf of the homeless and they must be complimented. This is a growing problem and many reasons can be given for that — people have opted out of society, broken homes, children who have left home, separated parents, problems which result from excessive drinking and so on. Society in general is affected in one way or another by the problem of the homeless. One can walk down any street in our larger cities and one will find people begging on the streets, lying on the ground, hats in front of them, looking for money. This is a sad sight. It could be said that it is an indictment on each and every one of us that this problem exists. Unemployment is another contributory factor. How do we deal with the problem? We had very welcome submissions from the Simon Community, but all the other agencies and association which are playing their part in dealing with the homeless should get together and submit a report to establish and identify the size of this problem.

The committee were wise to await the outcome of the working party report of the Law Reform Commission. Any views submitted to us will help us to make our final report. Our committee have done a great deal of work. We met right through the summer recess but our work is not finished with this report.

Drugs are a major problem. Sometimes it is said the problem applies only to the larger cities but it also affects the urban areas. Many of the people who are begging on our streets are doing so to get money for drugs. We must be concerned that children as young as nine years of age have been begging on the streets of Cork. Many of these nine year olds to 12 year olds travel by train from Dublin and this is where the responsibility of parents come in. Some of those chidren were itinerant children.

I am glad the report sets out the importance for us as a community of tackling the problem. We must try to improve the lot of the homeless and the people classified in this report as beggars. For many of them prison is not the answer. The Garda sometimes find that there is no place for them to go but prison. I feel sorry for the Garda Síochána in such situations. It has happened that when people were taken to prison they could not be admitted because there was no room. The problem is exacerbated by taking many young people to court.

This report will be welcomed by all. I hope that at a later date the committee will bring forward a more comprehensive report so that the community will realise it is also their problem. The homeless are people like ourselves who, for one reason or another, have opted out of society. Many of them come from broken homes. We must be sensitive about the way we approach the problem. For the majority prison has not been the answer. It is an indictment of us that so many young people are put into prison because there is no other place for them. We must consider seriously the building of hostels and institutions where these people could be given the necessary care and attention. Of course I realise that there are people who commit crime and the law must take its course but there are others who, through no fault of their own, have drifted into begging. These people need our help and we must let them see we do not regard them as outcasts. Progress has been made in many areas of life but we seem to have fallen down with regard to these people. I welcome the report and I commend it to the House.

Mr. L.T. Cosgrave

I join with other speakers in welcoming the report. While it may be somewhat lightweight with regard to recommendations I hope the fact that it has been brought before the House will highlight a problem that has become particularly acute in a time of recession. By discussing it in this House I hope there will develop a deeper awareness in the public that something must be done.

We are looking at an Act that is 116 years old and it is not before time that there was some review of it and its implications. We are only too well aware of the problem, particularly in our larger cities, of people who are homeless and those who are loitering and begging. Many of them have fallen on hard times and they have accepted this way of life as their lot but there are also the more organised people who beg and who, although not homeless, loiter for one reason or another. All of us know of the children who beg in O'Connell Street. Some of them are there of their own will begging for money, and at times they go further than begging and approach people with a view to relieving them of their wallet or handbag but some of them have been sent to O'Connell Street by their parents. We have to consider where these parents are and also whether it is an organised campaign.

Basically the problem is a social one. As the Minister said, at times there is overlapping between housing authorities and health boards and some people seem to fall between the two. The health boards seem to think it is the responsibility of the housing authority and vice versa.

The committee have been somewhat light with regard to recommendations but various aspects had to be considered. There was a submission from the Simon Community and that was quite useful. I hope that at a future date we will have further submissions from other bodies and there is also the expected report from the Law Reform Commission. I hope that the committee will be able at a future date to come forward with more definite proposals for the Minister's attention.

It is not easy to have definite legislation for this area. Many practical things can be done. In general we are not talking about people who are criminals in the accepted sense of the word. We are talking about people who generally like to keep to themselves. Sometimes they may be rather a nuisance if they have had a few drinks too many or if they wander around looking for money but generally they are not a great threat to society. To a certain extent it is clear that fines or imprisonment is not the answer for fairly practical reasons. Unless it is a very minor fine the people concerned will not be able to pay it and they will probably end up in prison. While imprisonment may take them off the streets for the night we cannot forget that our prisons are overcrowded.

Most people think those who have committed real crimes and who are a menace and a threat to society should be put away rather than these people. Unfortunately due to the problem of overcrowding, prisoners have been getting out of jail a day or two after they were sentenced to quite long prison terms. It has implications for the Garda who have taken weeks and months to put a case together when they see that Joe Bloggs who was sentenced the previous day is back in the area and ready to resume his career as a criminal.

Imprisonment should be a measure of last resort. We have to consider supplementing the help we give to the various bodies like the Simon Community. I should like to pay a special tribute to the Simon Community for the tremendous work they do. They give great assistance to many people who might otherwise die. We must listen to what these voluntary bodies are saying to us. They have many good points to make. They are experts in the field and they know the practical difficulties. We want to look after these people to the best of our ability and, in order to do so, we need to give practical help to the various voluntary bodies if we are to succeed in tackling the problem.

It has been suggested that a person on a minimum social welfare payment cannot afford to stay in a hostel or indeed to keep himself. Perhaps some low cost national hostels should be provided. This possibility has to be examined. I welcome the report, weak as it may be. It is necessary at this stage to give further consideration to the problem. I hope the various reports which this committee have made will be acted upon. Mention was made of the necessity for control on security firms. These are practical every day problems which may not be the largest problems facing us in comparison with our growing crime problem. I hope that when we look at these reports in six or 12 months or in two years, we will be able to say they were acted upon by the Government. If the committee system is to be a success there is no point in leaving their reports to gather dust on the shelf. It is important that when the work is done and the problems are outlined, action is taken by the relevant Ministers, by the Government and by the House.

To a certain extent the committees have been a success. Their true success will be judged on the benefit they are to the public either in saving taxpayers' money or in creating a better environment for us all. As I said, I welcome the report. It is important that we listen to the various bodies. The Minister mentioned a report due shortly from the Department of Health. It is clear that in some cases there is either an overlapping or a falling short in the roles of the respective bodies whether they are local authorities or health boards. We have to do something practical for homeless people and about the problem of begging. We must give practical help to the bodies whose main work is to assist these people.

Mr. Skelly

I should like to endorse the statement made by our chairman, Deputy Woods, and to align myself with the other members of the committee who have spoken in support of the decriminalisation of certain offences under the Vagrancy Act. Society response to the problem of vagrancy has been inadequate in that we have not tackled the cause of the problem, but rather punished unfortunate victims who cannot fend for themselves. The pure capitalist system is a filter system producing a colander effect, with the fittest staying in and the remainder dropping to the bottom. The problems thus created have been left to voluntary and religious groups to pick up the pieces. Society chooses to ignore the problem, hoping it will go away. As it becomes more consumer orientated and selfish, it does not want to be bothered with the victims of this system who are very often the feeble, the weak, and the sick.

In the submission's comparison between the years 1898 to 1956 under the category, living on prostitutes' earnings there were no prosecutions since 1898 because it was classed as not applicable. There were no prosecutions in 1956 whereas, under the category, gaming, there were 38 proseuctions in 1898 and in 1956 it was classed as "not applicable". It is suggested that these two categories should be transferred to the criminal law. In a case of the offence of living on prostitutes earnings I suggest that a very severe penalty such as that handed down to drug pushers should be applicable. It is proposed that gaming, which is regarded as an offence under the Vagrancy Act, should also be transferred to the criminal code.

The modern form of gaming would be equivalent to gaming machines and lotteries and I regret to see that it is the intention of the Government to allow a lottery under the recently published national plan. I would regard this as a retrograde step mainly because, in my view, the Government would be entering an area which was formerly considered to be of a criminal nature and the effects it would have on people, on gambling here generally, and on the poor in particular.

I will reserve my detailed comments on that for the Bill when it is submitted but I should like to say that lottery is another form of taxing the poor. It is not the wealthy who buy lottery tickets and the table of the wealthy is not depleted if tickets are purchased. It is the poor, the helpless and hopeless who speculate money allocated for food and other essentials on lottery tickets. As the prize increases so will the amount speculated. If, for example, tickets are sold for £1 each and the prize rises to £1 million in any one draw, then the odds are one million to one. Certainly, no regular punter or, indeed, the wealthy who are usually also the educated, will take a chance at those odds. It is again back to the poor. I will be urging the Government to steer clear of that course of action.

We leave many of our social problems to religious and voluntary groups. Education is a good example. People who are not able to fend for themselves have been left aside. The hostels do a good job but they do not have the necessary means and the support of the community. As people become more comfortable in their standard of living they are less likely to help others who are less fortunate. The more consumer orientated they become the less they become involved in their neighbours' problems and hence we have a broken down society which we are trying to patch up. We are not going the right way about it. We do not seem to tackle the causes very well.

The committee's proposal is a modest one. I agree with Deputy Woods that the committee is working extremely hard and as a cohesive unit. It has an important role to play and a heavy programme ahead. I hope the Minister will take into consideration these submissions and others which will come in the future. I would wish to include in my remarks our excellent secretary, Mr. Brady, who has done an excellent job for us.

Regarding the problems mentioned in the Simon Community submission, it seems very clear that the community welfare officers will not pay those who are sleeping out. Different approaches are taken to people who sleep out or beg. Very often they are regarded as an eyesore by other members of the community. As society continues to drive past and ignore the homeless or those begging, the problem remains unsolved. We have left it to the Garda to perform a very unpleasant task which I am sure they are not keen to perform except that it is part of their duty. I am sure they would prefer society to solve the problem rather than pass it to them. These problems are conveniently ignored by people who are in a more comfortable position than these unfortunates. They drive through from wealthy areas to poorer areas with their eyes closed to the problems and they do not like to meet these people in the street or passing over O'Connell Bridge because it reminds them of society's — and consequently their own — responsibility to its less fortunate members.

There is reason to believe that some of the begging is contrived. Nevertheless it is extraordinary that people should go so far as to say that these people should not be supported because they are well off, as if Members here would be willing to exchange places with them. Such comments are made frequently about people on social welfare or drawing the dole. It is said that they are almost as well off as those who are working. This is an unfair and ridiculous comparison made daily by people who should know better. Even if people do manage to get some form of support from social welfare it will not make them comfortable or, by any stretch of the imagination, well off. They will still be struggling to survive, existing instead of living.

We should work towards the objective of wiping out vagrancy from our society. The way to do it is to improve facilities and amenities, create employment prospects, to improve the standard of living and to become involved. It would take very little effort on behalf of the community, even on a voluntary basis, to get rid of it. I am not suggesting that the finger be pointed at the Government or at any Government Department. It is society's responsibility, but it is conveniently ignored. The better off people prefer to go home, watch colour television or drink pints of Smithwicks in a lounge bar and watch plenty of sport. They ignore the homeless, the drug problem and the problems of youth. They do not become involved in their local youth club or scout organisation. With the youngest population in Europe — 50 per cent being under the age of 25/30 — the problems are compounding on a daily basis. This will eventually bring down the standard of living which the better off people already enjoy.

It is opportune that this proposal should be submitted to the House. It gives us time to reflect on it in the light of the Law Commission's impending report. It is also an indication of what select committees can usefully do in ferretting out problems in our society and bringing them before the Legislature. I hope we will address the problem and solve it in the near future.

Drink and homelessness are tied up together and this fact is mentioned in the report. The Simon Community refer to regular, heavy drinkers as people who need medical attention and who should not therefore come under the vagrancy laws and be subject to terms of imprisonment. This is an area we are inclined to ignore. People are beginning to realise that it is a very serious problem which needs urgent attention.

I am sorry for the Government that less revenue has been generated due to the falling off in drinking but nevertheless I am delighted at the social improvements for families and the consequent improvement in health and welfare, which do result in savings for the State. I am not so sure that it is a good idea to reduce the prices — I see questions on the Order Paper asking to have them reduced — if we gain more revenue as a result of more people drinking. Drink is a problem especially with young people who eventually can end up on the streets and be subject to these laws. Certainly we will have a healthier society if we have less pressure on people to drink. I welcome the new sense of responsibility that has come about in the last number of years which is the real cause of the reduction in drinking, and the price has nothing to do with that.

As a public representative I realise that the homeless are not generally eligible for public housing. This is not a simple problem. I know from experience that there is a tendency for people deliberately to live in caravans or cars or on the side of the road in order to get some form of housing. Generally in the Dublin area at least the health board or the local authority try to supply them with some form of accommodation. Usually it is not a house; it is likely to be a flat and not always in the most desirable of areas, but it is a form of solution. One weak point here which Deputy Cosgrave mentioned is that there are not many suggestions as to how to solve the problem. There are some small hostels with back-up services but they are very few. In this area a big improvement could be brought about with a very small amount of money.

Visitors to our shores do not understand why they see children begging on the streets. I was standing at a presbytery on St. Stephen's Green one day when an American came up and asked the housekeeper to take in a lady who had a child with her and who was begging. He wanted the housekeeper to do something for her because he could not understand why this was happening in this society. Of course, the housekeeper was nonplussed and did not really know what to do. We continue to ignore this not very taxing but enormous problem. We should decriminalise the vagrancy laws in such instances and then set about attacking the problem finally.

I had the unusual experience in the last year, which I doubt if any other Member of the House has had, of bringing a delegation to the Minister for the Environment to ask him to hurry up the allocation of moneys for the setting up of an itinerant site in the Blanchardstown area because the community there were anxious to get their allocation of itinerants that had been agreed by the county council for different parts of Dublin. They had prepared schooling and creches and had obtained volunteers to help to get the itinerants housed quickly and attending school and to help to integrate them into the community. It took two years for the Department to respond and the county council to provide the money and the site. At last it has been done, but it shows that if people are prepared to tackle the problem they can solve it if they put their minds to helping the less unfortunate neighbours and friends.

I do not wish to dwell too long on this, but I appeal to members of the public to become involved in youth clubs. It is almost impossible to get adults to supervise youth clubs. Many problems result from children being unsupervised. Perhaps the children come from broken homes, the parents are out at work or they are in communities and areas where there are very few facilities and the result is that they have no properly supervised activities. My experience has taught me that while people are willing to contribute money towards projects and youth clubs, very often they are not willing to contribute their time for transport or supervision or becoming involved for half an hour, an hour or a night a week. I ask people to think carefully about that because it is one reason for the problems of vandalism, crime and drugs.

One reason for removing these laws would be that they would not be used at all as a last resort or a fall back on which to charge a person. Accepting the submission to be made by the commission, we would do everybody a favour if we get rid of these laws.

The document "Why the Vagrancy Laws of 1824 Must be Repealed" produced by the Simon Community says, and I quote:

These offences are the product of the social conditions of the poor and destitute. They are absolutely inevitable so long as the homeless cannot get housing or social welfare. The term `vagrancy' is offensive. Homeless people are simply ordinary people with an acute accommodation problem. They are not wild, aggressive lunatics who must be locked up — an image which the term vagrant reinforces.

They are often unemployable, uneducated, maybe drop-outs, people who have temporarily lost their way in life, who perhaps cannot cope and do not understand what is happening to them particularly when they are taken into court, locked up or put in a room. That must be an awful, claustrophobic, terrifying experience, and one can understand why very often they end up talking to themselves sitting in some back alley or on a park bench or walking around with their total possessions on their bodies, perhaps several overcoats or bags like the women in New York. Generally they are gentle people who need help and on whom society has turned its back in its quest for consumerism, comfort and high standards of living. These people do not represent something that we want to push down the back streets or to cover up because it is too uncomfortable for us to look at. The answer to the problem is to help these people and the resources required for that are not very great. In conclusion I should like to quote what the Simon Community said:

To repeal the Vagrancy Act would be a small measure of justice for a much oppressed group of Irish society. It would be a statement that the problems of the homeless were at last being recognised. It would remove the stigma of medieval laws on people who need help, not condemnation. It would be a small but significant measure of social reform in the direction of humane and civilised values.

Mr. Durkan

My contribution on this third report of the committee regarding the decriminalisation of certain offences under the Vagrancy Act will be brief. One good thing about the report is that it brings to the attention of all Members the existence of the type of people referred to in it. Those people exist in spite of the fact that we live in a relatively affluent society. The problem seems to have increased and been exacerbated by modern living conditions rather than being improved. One has only to walk through any of our cities or towns during the day or at night and see the number of children begging and the many destitute middle-aged people who are sleeping rough to realise the extent of the problem. The report rightly suggests the decriminalisation of certain aspects of the problems that arise from their situation. With regard to the begging offence it is felt that the law is to some extent a deterrent and that is as it should be. The problem is that alongside begging there are associated problems such as drug-taking and the possibility of falling into a way of life which is completely undesirable for young children. Naturally, it follows in many cases that these children end up taking drugs and sleeping rough. Ultimately, they fall into poor health. They are a sad reflection on our society and our way of life. I do not know what visitors to our shores think when they see such sights, particularly in the capital city.

I accept that various organisations such as the Simon Community have done tremendous work for these people but there is a need to do a little more. The health boards are very involved also in assisting such people. The report deals also with housing. One of the reasons for many of these problems relates to social attitudes. The problem does not arise necessarily from any intention on the part of the people concerned to become criminals but is as a result of the conditions into which they are born and in which they live.

On the question of housing the report points out that five or six local authorities will not consider rehousing able-bodied single people because, under the terms of reference of those authorities, such people are not considered eligible for rehousing. That is sad and that should be looked at. I accept that some local authorities had another look at that matter. It is quite simple and relatively inexpensive to house such people in a semi-permanent location by way of a chalet or what is commonly known as a demountable dwelling. Such accommodation has been provided in many counties and has proved very effective. The homeless individual who may have lost all hope of owning a home of his own has been given a place to return to each night. If more local authorities provided such accommodation, and the matter was pursued by health boards, it would be one method of alleviating the problem of homelessness for such people who are not considered eligible for local authority housing by virtue of their status. I have had to deal with this problem on a number of occasions but the local authority I was concerned with were prepared to resolve the problem. That good example should be taken up by more local authorities.

The report also deals with the question of the unfortunate individuals found disorderly while drunk in a public place. In fact, as the report points out, it is not possible for such people to be disorderly while drunk in a private place by virtue of the fact that they do not have a fixed abode. It is interesting to note the cost to the State when a person convicted of disorderly behaviour while drunk is sentenced to a week in prison. According to the report the cost of transferring such people from one place to another and detaining them in prison for three days is £1,000. The law in regard to such cases is in need of review. That sum of £1,000 would be better spent in providing facilities through the Simon Community, health boards or the other voluntary organisations concerned about the poor and destitute. If the money was spent through those organisations it would help to eliminate the problem rather than wasting it on an attempt to carry out a penalty which is irrelevant as far as helping those individuals is concerned.

Reference was made in the report, in regard to those found sleeping rough, to two categories of persons. We are all aware of those who are harmless and do not cause a disturbance to anybody. There are others who, by virtue of the severity of their problem, become somewhat offensive and a nuisance to people. More resources should be allocated to monitor the problems of such people and ensure that the young are not allowed to sleep rough for too long or get into an environment where drug-taking, wine drinking and so on are encouraged. That sequence should be interrupted by some corrective influence through the health boards or some other social service. It is essential to interrupt the sequence by some agency rather than to leave it to the criminal law because, though the criminal law can impose penalties, it cannot reduce the problem or discourage people from falling into that pattern. Ultimately, of course, the criminal law can do much to improve the general situation. I thank the committee for their report. It is to be hoped that their recommendations will be noted so that we legislators will be able to help to bring the process of decriminalisation into the 20th century.

Mr. J. Doyle

As a member of the committee which considered the proposals of the Simon Community I fully endorse the views expressed in the report. I will make just a few comments on the proposal that the sanction of imprisonment be removed for begging and sleeping rough. The committee observed that people can be sent to prison for three months for first offences. No information has been furnished as to the extent to which this sanction has been used, either imprisonment or fines.

I have had a look at the Garda Commissioner's Report for 1983 which showed that 115 persons were convicted of such offences and a further 126 were convicted of other offences under the Vagrancy Act. The report did not give any indication of the penalties imposed by the courts for the offences because the courts do not publish any details. It has not been possible to obtain statistics in regard to these cases, and when statistics are available from the courts they cover different periods. In that year the figures were for 1 August to 31 July. That is completely different from the calendar year used by the Garda Commissioner and by the prison authorities. However, I have been able to ascertain the numbers sent to prison for begging and sleeping rough.

I submit it is time that the treatment of crime would become streamlined so that the three groups involved, the Garda, the courts and the Department, would come together to provide a comprehensive approach to what is happening today. Other voluntary groups, including the probation service and the new community service group should all become involved in this. I realise it must be a long term objective but I recommend that the Minister for Justice would be enabled to make a start in this matter.

Deputy Durkan has spoken about section 2 (9) of the Vagrancy Act. Apparently people can be without food or shelter and yet be ignored by local authorities. This is a very sad reflection on our society. Local authorities have an obligation to provide accommodation for all homeless people. Dublin Corporation have as a policy the practice of placing single people who are homeless and over 50 years of age on the general housing list and if there is medical or social evidence in support of their case they will possibly be rehoused in low priority accommodation. I am pleased to inform the House, that following representations from the Simon Community, Dublin Corporation have agreed to reserve 50 flats initially of housing stock in high demand areas for single homeless people who are recommended by the Eastern Health Board or hostel personnel. This is a direct move by the housing authorities to play their part in housing single people who need it.

I wish to pay tribute to the Simon Community and others involved in assisting and giving shelter to homeless people. Those who work with those organisations are a shining example of man's humanity to man. They must be encouraged and supported. Though I do not support people who beg in the streets, I would draw a distinction between those who beg and those who seek alms. Late at night, when I meet an old person, lady or gentlemen, who is seeking alms for a night's shelter I see in them a reflection of my Creator. Unfortunately we have to wait for the Law Reform Commission report. I hope the report will take all those things into account so that the small number of people who through no fault of their own cannot provide accommodation for themselves will be looked after.

Mr. Keating

I wish to make only four brief points. The report has a number of references to ways in which this problem could be solved. First of all, one must ask where the buck stops. Essential responsibility, apparently, is not assigned to any one Department or agency. The report states that the recognition of homelessness is shifted from health boards to local authorities and back to the health boards. At present it is too easy for all of us to say it is not our problem, and to pass the buck to somebody else. Until that essential administrative statutory responsibility is given definitely to one area it will continue to be far too easy for all of us to slide out of this responsibility, which is what I call this Irish apartheid.

The Vagrancy Act, 1824, needs to be updated. Section 4 of that Act states:

Every person wandering abroad and lodging in any barn or out-house, or in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or wagon ... and not giving a good account of himself or herself ... Every person found in or upon any dwelling house, warehouse, coachhouse, stable or out-house or in any enclosed yard, garden, or area, for any unlawful purpose ... shall be deemed to be a rogue and a vagabond, within the true intent and meaning of this Act.

I can see the whiskery magistrate of the peace pounding his desk at the unfortunate scraps of humanity dragged before him daily in a different era and age. That is not appropriate legislation for what I hope is the relatively enlightened and civilised approach we should have towards the difficulties of our brothers and sisters. I hope the report will act as a launching pad for changing the Act.

In case it might be said that the report of the Law Reform Commission is awaited, that is a strategy, and it does not absolve us of responsibility for doing what is right. I used to think at one time that commissions and bodies were set up to allow Governments to have a satisfactory holding answer while they preoccupied themselves with the day-to-day fire brigade action which unfortunately constitutes so much of government in these difficult times. It is not a way of avoiding responsibility. Regardless of the Law Reform Commission's report there is a problem today and a need for urgent action. If the action of other Governments following the publication of other reports by the Law Reform Commission is anything to go by, I am not too impressed about the likelihood of urgent action following the report which is pending though I have no doubt that there is goodwill on the part of the Minister involved. I would not like anyone to believe that as soon as the Law Reform Commission report the sun will shine on a bright new dawn for travelling people.

The committee's report states at paragraph 4.2:

The Committee are aware that there are a number of other persons and organisations who take an active interest in the welfare of the homeless. However, none of these individuals or groups have made a case to the Committee. The Committee would be very anxious to obtain the views of persons involved with the homeless on the question of whether the offences of begging and sleeping rough should be removed from the scope of the criminal law.

Perhaps the chairman of the committee might elaborate on that. I am surprised that none of these individuals or groups made a case to the committee. I do not know if they were asked individually or if they just failed to respond. I am aware that there is a great deal of public handwringing about this area but when it is boiled down there is not a lot of commitment by a fair number of people although there are honourable exceptions. These have been already mentioned. It is obligatory on groups and individuals who have repeatedly expressed concern and interest to co-operate fully with the committee in their work.

I wish to make a positive suggestion to the committee which they might consider. We are dealing with a very difficult problem. It has been part of our history and national psyche for centuries. At one time the Irish race were vagrants of one kind or another. We find it hard to prise ourselves away from that. We have a residue of problems which must be handled sensitively and carefully. I would be the last person to rush in with an urgent, administrative solution to what is a fundamental problem affecting people's attitudes, mentality and culture.

If we are to make a real start at solving the problem we shall have to deal with the root of the problem. We must try to wean the young people away from a lifestyle which, by common consent, will not allow them to fulfil their human potential and robs society of the contribution they could make. How can we wean them away if that is accepted as a reasonable approach? One of the difficulties is the mobility of the people. It should be possible, however, for schools in selected and specified places to have a curriculum specifically designed to cope with the problems of travelling children. The committee could consider the possibility of paying a small grant which would relate directly to the attendance of young children in those schools for specified periods. We should encourage, by economic means if necessary, sending these children to school. An ordinary school would be alien to their background and culture. It would not be satisfactory or fulfilling for them. They need a school where their needs — nutritional needs, clothing and so on — could be dealt with in a sensitive way. They could begin to learn that there is a road out of their present morass. They could come in contact with the world of learning, books and self-respect and all the things which make us different from the animal.

We could show them that there is hope for them and a systematic way in which they can be taken care of. I am not talking about bludgeoning, threatening or intimidating them but about winning their confidence and showing them we respect them as people. A whole new world could be opened up to them by encouraging their attendance in the educational milieu however it is structured.

I spoke to an itinerant person who had a problem and I referred him to an agency which would help him. He told me he did not know how to find his way to the agency and I told him to go down such and such a street. He said he could not read the street signs. This came as a shock to me because we do not think in those terms. We are dealing with a huge problem and it must be dealt with at many levels. We must win the hearts and minds of young people and show them that there is a better way of life for them and that we are caring enough to structure our educational requirements to ensure they can enter into them, be comfortable and become better people. If we can win this generation, the problems of future generations will solve themselves. I offer those points to the committee with respect.

Mr. Briscoe

I congratulate the committee on the production of this report and for the work they have done.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Thank you.

Mr. Briscoe

There is a problem in relation to the question of begging in our streets. We have submissions made by the Simon Community who are concerned about a particular type of individual known as vagrants — that is a word they would like to see changed — and popularly known as winos as opposed to itinerant families who beg from tourists and other people outside of hotels and so on. It is important to separate the kind of problems each possesses. After 77 years it is necessary to change some of the laws relating to vagrancy. The people known as winos must be catered for and it is important that there should be proper institutions for them.

Tribute has been paid to the Simon Community for the work they are doing and the deeply sincere way they feel about this problem. In relation to the question of begging no longer being a crime, that would be a retrograde step. This is one of the biggest problems we have to face in our streets. Not so long ago a 14 year old girl was robbed by some itinerant children. She had a bag of sweets in her hand and they snatched it away from her. She went after them and got her bag of sweets back. She was lucky that she was not badly beaten up. One of the deepest hurts I felt occurred one day when I was sitting in my car at St. Stephen's Green. A little itinerant child who looked no more than ten or 11 years old — the child might have been older because the growth of many of them is stunted — asked me for money. I asked him if he was hungry and he said he was. I then got out of my car, went into a shop and brought a bar of chocolate which I gave to the child. However, as I was getting into my car he flung the chocolate at me, shouting that he wanted money. Obviously he had been left in the area to do a job — to beg for money. We must be very careful when considering the whole question of the decriminalisation of certain offences under the Vagrancy Act so that we do not allow a situation to arise in which we give further licence to many of these itinerants to go into the city centre and hold people up to ransom. We must strike a balance as between the "wino" and the itinerant.

I am on the Joint Itinerant Settlement Committee of Dublin County Council and Dublin Corporation so I am fully aware of the efforts being made by those bodies in this area. It is all very well to be very charitable in what we have to say about itinerants and other homeless people but there are some who would take full advantage of any change in the laws on vagrancy. That is why I am issuing a warning to the committee to be very careful in their deliberations on this question. I hold the philosophy that one should never turn away someone who asks for help. Deputy Keating was in a position to be able to direct to a suitable place the person who asked him for help. As the Deputy has told us, in that case the person was unable to read. Not many people would be aware of where to direct such a person. They would probably direct them to the nearest church. Great credit is due to those people in the various presbyteries for the work they do for those who seek help there. I wish the committee well in their deliberations.

Dr. Woods

I thank those Members who have contributed to the debate. I could spend a lot of time discussing the various points that have been raised but, while that would take up a lot of time of the House, those points will be before the committee in their deliberations. We look forward to the early publication of the report of the Law Reform Commission.

Deputy Briscoe referred to itinerant children being sent into the city for the purpose of begging for money. This can be related to the instances I outlined concerning glue sniffing. It brings us to the point raised by a number of Deputies — considering each group in the sense that each present their own problems. There is no simple solution to those problems. They are not problems that the law can deal with simply or effectively. When the group of glue sniffers were investigated it was found that the reasons for their being in that situation were all different. Some of them being dropped off at a certain time of the day and left to collect money which in turn was collected from them at a later stage. This illustrates the importance of the work done by the Itinerant Settlement Committee. It led to giving some of these people a new lease of life and a means of developing their lives but that resulted solely from a recognition of what was happening. There are enormous social problems involved as well as legal problems in contacting the children and affording them some care without that being a compulsory kind of care. It is only by teasing out the various problems that solutions can be found.

Deputy Keating accepted that the Act needs up-dating. I am sure most people would agree. The committee have advertised for submissions and they engaged also in contacting personally some of the people concerned. Some of these people seem to be in a better position than others to respond to such contacts. The Simon Community have put forward some very good and well-prepared submissions. We had some difficulty in relation to submissions from the Garda. There was one period during which the Commissioner was not sure as to what he could talk to us about. However, we have obtained the views of the Garda so that matter has been resolved. There is now no problem in relation to the availability of the Garda at private sessions of the committee.

Our aim has been to highlight the facts and to encourage people to put forward their views. We in the committee are strongly of the opinion that there should be an alternative to imprisonment. We believe that the use of any form of imprisonment should only be resorted to after the failure of the people concerned to avail of whatever facilities can be provided.

The Garda are obliged to enforce the law as they find it. If they find someone wandering at night without resources they are obliged to take him to the Garda station but having done that they are obliged to follow the case through and bring it to the courts. The irony of this is that by providing a person with a warm bed and a dry cell for the night the Garda are caring for them in a way in which the statutory caring agencies are not. There have been many instances in which the Simon Community have secured the help and co-operation of the Garda but in which some institutions have refused help. Therefore, there is a very good relationship between the Garda and Simon Community workers.

So far as the committee are concerned, the question of providing intermediate facilities is very urgent, whether these be in the form of hostels, homes or any other. I have referred to the two separate facilities that have been provided in Wicklow for glue sniffers and which are working extremely well. There was a difficulty in co-ordinating the response of the different agencies. That point has been highlighted here this morning. The Minister has admitted that this is a problem and has expressed the hope that the ad hoc committee set up by the Minister for Health and involving the health boards and housing authorities will bring forward some solutions in this area. From the contributions from all sides of the House it is clear that there is a need for a very strong co-ordination of the effort. Perhaps it is in this respect that so many of the well-intentioned plans fall. It is very obvious in such cases as the settlement of itinerants. I have been involved in such a scheme in my own constituency and I find repeatedly that the lack of resources and of people, too, to continue the job is a real problem. The will is there but the need is so great that there must be resources to deal with the problem and people must be given the support which they need.

I very much welcome the decisions taken by Dublin County Council recently in relation to the provision of sites but, even if you have the sites, if you do not provide the back-up and follow-up by way of resources and people, it will be difficult to overcome the problems. It is clear in a high percentage of these problems that if you provide the resources and the back-up you will get very good results. I was very interested in Deputy Skelly's remarks concerning his constituency. He said they were very anxious to provide facilities but that it took two years to have an itinerant community and to do the integration work which was needed. There is a danger that the support which is needed will not be provided and that is something to which this ad hoc committee might direct their attention. If the help is forthcoming then we can set standards here which people in other countries might be envious of because we have had a variety of experiments in this area which have been very good and far-seeing, even to the extent of providing teachers to travel with the itinerants to ensure that their young people were educated. We have been quite far-seeing in relation to our trials and the efforts we are making. However, we do not have sufficient follow through, back-up and continuity.

I welcome the comments made by Deputies here this morning and the emphasis laid on the need to co-ordinate the work of local authorities and health boards. Several comments were made about the role of the voluntary agencies in this area and the very important work they perform. The Simon Community were mentioned and everyone seemed to be very impressed by their work. There are also other voluntary organisations working in this area. We should recognise that they have a very important part to play in society and we should not deplore the fact that too much work is left to voluntary and religious groups. Voluntary groups can make a special contribution in this area but they need to be supported. As Minister for Health in 1982, I set up the National Community Development Agency in an effort to give support to these groups. That followed long debates in the House about poverty and the supports which were needed. We managed to make substantial funds available to that group, £2.25 million at that time. That agency was disbanded by the incoming Government and there is a proposal now to have a poverty agency but two years have elapsed since then. It does not matter what we call the agency as long as we have one which gets on with the job and have the resources to do so. I am very anxious to see a new poverty agency getting under way and giving support to groups like the Simon Community which got very substantial support from the extra money which was voted at the time. They can do a great deal of work if they have the resources for specific projects.

We eagerly await the report of the Law Reform Commission. We were reluctant to finalise our views without seeing it and I think the Minister accepted that we needed to see it. We hope we have provided an updating of the position in relation to this area and that it will be of help to the Members of the House in any discussions which take place. One of our functions is to update the position and to make information available to Members of the House which, in turn, will help them in arriving at decisions.

I think it was Deputy Gay Mitchell who suggested that we should keep an index of these reports which would enable us to monitor them. I am very glad he mentioned that point because it is very important and should be part of the normal procedure of the committee. With regard to the question of neighbourhood watch, we had a very useful report which has been accepted by all parties involved but pilot studies are still going on and it is necessary that the committee would report back to the House in the near future as to how development is going. The report could then be updated and its progress monitored.

Obviously, the many aspects which were brought up by Deputies here this morning give an opportunity for a much more lengthy response but I am aware that there is another committee report to be discussed. I should like to thank the Deputies who contributed in the House and I should like to thank those who contributed to the preparation of the report. I should particularly like to thank the clerk to our committee, Mr. Frank Brady, who has given valuable assistance. Perhaps these people are not thanked often enough in the House. We have taken note of the points made by Members here and will bear them in mind.

Question put and agreed to.