Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985

Vol. 362 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - Social Welfare (Insurance Inclusions and Exclusions) Regulations, 1985: Motion.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. B. Desmond)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following regulations in draft:

Social Welfare (Insurance Inclusions and Exclusions) Regulations, 1985

a copy of which regulations was laid before Dáil Éireann on 29 November, 1985.

The purpose of the regulations is to deal with a problem that has arisen in relation to the insurability under the Social Welfare Acts of the employments of certain ministers of religion. By virtue of the provisions of paragraph 7 of Part II of the First Schedule to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981, where a person is a minister of religion any employment which he may have is excluded from insurability under the Social Welfare Acts. Recently, representations have been made to me by the Representative Body of the Church of Ireland about a difficulty with which that body is faced arising from the exclusion provision I have mentioned.

The Church of Ireland has introduced a new auxiliary ministry as part of its pastoral ministry. Auxiliary ministers are persons who are ordained in Holy Orders but continue in full time secular employment. In their leisure time, voluntarily and on an unpaid basis, they help the pastoral ministry of the Church. Because the auxiliary ministers are ministers of religion who are ordained in Holy Orders, they are excluded from insurance under the Social Welfare Acts in their secular employment by virtue of the existing legal provision which I have mentioned. Not many persons are involved — about ten, I understand — but some have been paying social insurance contributions for a long time and the Church of Ireland has represented to me that it would be inequitable that they should be deprived of continuing social insurance cover in their normal day-to-day secular occupations because of their ordination as auxiliary ministers. I am satisfied the existing statutory provision would constitute an inequity in so far as the auxiliary ministers are concerned.

The purpose of the regulations, therefore, is to remedy the position by amending paragraph 7 of Part II of the First Schedule to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981. For constitutional reasons it is necessary to draft the regulations in such a way that it may be applied to all religious denominations and not to one denomination only. A provision of a somewhat similar nature was made in 1974 to bring into social insurance ministers of religion who are engaged full time on pastoral work for which they receive remuneration.

In practice, what will happen is that an appropriate body or authority for a religious class will represent to me that it is unreasonable that their secular employment should not be insurable employment under the Social Welfare Acts and this will enable me to have the employments in question treated as insurable under the Social Welfare Acts. The Church of Ireland is the body immediately concerned but, by virtue of the way in which the regulations have been drafted, it can apply equally to any religious denomination.

Under subsection (6) of section 5 of the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981, the regulations may not be made until a resolution approving the draft regulations has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. I am happy to recommend the draft regulations to Dáil Éireann.

Dr. McCarthy

As Opposition spokesman on Social Welfare, I support the Minister's introduction of regulations to amend the statutory position under the 1981 Act. It is obvious that the existing regulations clearly are inequitable and anomalous. It is important that any person who is ordained and who, without remuneration for his or her religious duties should be debarred from insurability in secular employment. I am pleased that we are about to rectify this anomalous position in regard to ministers in the Church of Ireland. We recognise that the anomalies would affect only auxiliary ministers of the Church of Ireland who work on a voluntary basis. It is obviously discriminative that the social welfare inclusion and exclusions would act unfairly against such people.

Of course, these regulations could apply to individuals of other religious persuasions and it is our duty as legislators to respond to the genuine and sincere representations of the hierarchy of any religious body. These regulations could affect the security of auxiliary ministers in the Church of Ireland and their families, and I am glad we will be able to dispose of such anomalies so that no minister will be debarred from insurable security in the future. It is a matter of ensuring that the dedication of those people to their calling will not in any way militate against them in regard to insurability.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. B. Desmond)

I thank Deputy McCarthy as Opposition spokesman on Social Welfare for having agreed to the expeditious taking of this motion which must go before both Houses. I am pleased, as the body concerned will be, that we are able to deal with this anomaly, though that may not be the appropriate word to use.

Question put and agreed to.