Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Dec 1985

Vol. 362 No. 11

Supplementary Estimates, 1985: Leave to Introduce.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Dukes)

I move:

That leave be given by the Dáil to introduce the following Supplementary Estimates for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of December 1985, namely:—

Votes:—

2 (Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Assembly).

7 (Office of the Minister for Finance).

9 (Office of the Revenue Commissioners).

10 (Public Works and Buildings).

13 (Office of the Attorney General).

15 (Miscellaneous Expenses).

23 (Office of the Minister for Justice).

25 (Prisons).

29 (Environment).

31 (Primary Education).

36 (Forestry).

37 (Gaeltacht).

38 (Agriculture).

40 (Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism).

41 (Communications).

44 (Foreign Affairs).

46 (Social Welfare).

47 (Health).

Mr. Haughey

If I agree now you will not let me speak. As I said earlier, the total amount of these Supplementary Estimates — I know Deputy O'Keeffe is anxious to assist me because he is deeply concerned——

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

The Minister for Agriculture has sold out.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure the leader of the Opposition and Deputy O'Keeffe will find an opportunity later to discuss this matter.

Mr. Haughey

Perhaps we might persuade the Taoiseach to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for the farmers. I would draw the attention of the public and of the Minister for Finance to the fact that we are asked to vote Supplementary Estimates to the total amount of £94 million. When the Minister for Finance was introducing his budget this year we told him clearly that his Estimates were inadequate and therefore that the budget was fraudulent. We now find the need to introduce these Estimates because of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House has just agreed unanimously that these Estimates will be taken immediately and decided without debate. Either we are to have debate on them or we are not to debate them.

Mr. Haughey

We are not to have a debate on certain Estimates. The Minister is seeking leave to introduce the Estimates.

An Ceann Comhairle

The order is: by agreement, the Supplementary Estimates being introduced today will be taken immediately after leave has been granted for their introduction and shall be brought to a conclusion forthwith and successfully and decided without debate with the exception of certain Estimates.

Mr. Haughey

We are confronted with a whole series of Estimates and in order to facilitate the Government we have agreed on a large number of these Estimates being put through without debate, on the nod, as it were.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is correct.

Mr. Haughey

But there is another number of Estimates and they are to be debated. I would have thought that while we agreed to this procedure the Minister is now only seeking leave to introduce the Estimates and I am only commenting on all the Estimates he is seeking leave to introduce.

An Ceann Comhairle

Leaving out the merits of the issue, it is not within the spirit of the agreement that I have been told has been reached, because Deputy Haughey proceeds to debate the various Estimates I will not be able to prevent the Minister, Deputy Mac Giolla or any other Deputy from contributing.

Mr. Haughey

All we have agreed on is to deal with these Estimates between today and tomorrow. That will be done but I think I am in order in making a short comment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am complying with the order that is before me. There is no objection to the Deputies speaking within the time provided on Estimates Nos. 23, 25, 38, 41, 46 and 47.

Mr. Haughey

There is £94 million of taxpayers' money involved. The Minister is seeking leave to introduce a series of Estimates totalling that amount and surely I am entitled to comment on that aspect and not on the individual Estimates at this stage.

Mr. Allen

Are we not all entitled to comment on that?

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Haughey speaks on the proposal, everyone else may speak to it also so that we could continue to debate this aspect of the Estimates until 5 p.m. this evening.

Mr. Haughey

I happen to represent the main Opposition party and the party who agreed reluctantly to this procedure. So that discussion of the individual Estimates may proceed I will conclude with two or three further remarks. The budget based on the Estimates has been shown conclusively, as we predicted at the time, to have been fraudulent, especially in relation to the £50 million extra which is being sought now for social welfare and which we indicated at budget time would be necessary because of the inadequacy of the provision made in this respect.

The Government have made a great song and dance and paraded their virtue about the matter of Government expenditure but here we are being asked to agree to the provision of almost £100 million extra for Government expenditure in 1985.

Mr. Dukes

Regarding Deputy Haughey's remarks——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must point out that the Estimates are not yet before the House but having heard Deputy Haughey, it would be manifestly unjust not to give the Minister a hearing.

Mr. Haughey

Of course.

Mr. Dukes

I appreciate the co-operation of the Opposition in handling this matter. This is the third year in a row in which this has happened. Likewise, when Fianna Fáil were on this side of the House, they had the co-operation of my party at the same time of the year and on the same kind of occasion to do as we are doing.

Deputy Haughey has characterised the Estimates as inadequate and has alleged that the budget of which they were the base was fraudulent, That is not the case. The Supplementary Estimates before us total an amount in the region of £90 million. A number of Estimates are involved for areas in which extra expenditure during the course of the year becomes necessary. There are also a number of Estimates for areas in which no extra expenditure is involved but because of the proper scrutiny that is required we must place before the House details of transfers and expenditure from one subhead to another. We do not discuss in the House Estimates for Departments where expenditure is at figures below the budget targets and there are some such areas. Therefore, for Deputy Haughey to try to pretend that the total extra amount involved is £94 million is a very small, very selective and misleading presentation of the matter.

I will remind the Deputy that for the past three years, 1983 to 1985, the overrun of current expenditure on the budget target, taking the three years together, will be about 3 per cent outside what was planned at budget time. During Deputy Haughey's period in Government——

Mr. Haughey

We are talking about Estimates for this year.

Mr. Dukes

——the current budget deficit outturn exceeded the budget target by an average of 56 per cent and in some years it was vastly in excess of that figure.

Mr. Haughey

That is not correct. In our last year in office expenditure was on target.

Mr. Dukes

For Deputy Haughey to come to the House this morning and make the kind of remarks he has just made shows clearly that what he referred to yesterday as his noble head is sitting on a brazen neck.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is leave being granted to introduce the Supplementary Estimates?

Mr. Haughey

Reluctantly.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

Deputy McCarthy will deal now with the extra £50 million required for social welfare.

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. P. Barry)

I hope he will welcome the £20 million extra for the unemployed this Christmas.

Mr. Haughey

The Government have inflicted widespread poverty and hardship on the community.

An Ceann Comhairle

I wish Deputy Haughey would allow the business to proceed.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Can the Minister for Foreign Affairs explain the reduction of 25 per cent in what should have been the double week's payment to old age pensioners?

Mr. P. Barry

I can explain that.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy O'Keeffe does not behave himself he will have to leave the House. The Chair is defending Standing Orders.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

What about the old age pensioners?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must behave himself.