asked the Minister for Justice if he will order an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the death of Paul Kenna in Mountjoy prison on 17 January; if, in view of the fact that this is the fourth death in Mountjoy in as many months and the third apparent suicide and reports of a number of other attempted suicides in Mountjoy and Arbour Hill prisons, he is satisfied with the level of supervision of prisoners and the standards of medical and psychiatric services available in the prisons; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Private Notice Questions. - Death of Prisoner.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a statement concerning the circumstances surrounding the recent death of a young man, Paul Kenna, in Mountjoy prison; if he will now state the actual position concerning the number of current prisoners who have been addicted to drug taking, the extent of drug availability and abuse within the prisons (male and female); and the measures which he has taken to safeguard the health and welfare of both prisoners and prison staff.
Limerick East): I propose to take both questions together. As the House will appreciate, an inquest will be held into the tragic incident and I am, therefore, somewhat inhibited in what I can say lest I appear to be pre-empting the findings of the inquest. I can say, however, that the prisoner, when checked at about 6.10 a.m., appeared to be sleeping and that at about 6.50 a.m. he was found hanging. I am satisfied that, contrary to reports, the prisoner was identified by the prison medical staff as an abuser of heroin and that medication appropriate to helping the prisoner cope with the physical effects of withdrawal from heroin was prescribed.
On the general issues raised by the Deputies, I would, first of all, refer them to my replies to Questions Nos. 7, 17, 27, 30 and 33 of 27 November 1985, Official Report, columns 317-326, where I dealt at length with the problems posed for the prisons by those committed to prison with drug addiction problems. I also dealt with the question of treatment facilities in reply to Question No. 37 of 23 October, Official Report, columns 38-40.
I welcome the opportunity given by those questions to advise the House of developments within the prisons since the recess.
As I indicated on 27 November, the predicted and inevitable surfacing of prisoners who had been found to be HTLV III positive, that is, to have been in contact with the AIDS virus, had occurred and that steps were being taken to deal with the matter. As I said then, I hoped to make a joint statement with the Minister for Health regarding the best use to which an almost completed unit at the Central Mental Hospital could be put in order to assist the prison system in coping with the medical-related problems of prisoners.
Yesterday, in a statement on my own behalf and on behalf of the Minister for Health, I indicated that the unit when completed in about two months time will be transferred to the prison service. I am grateful for the co-operation of the Minister for Health in this matter.
Since I spoke on 27 November, an official party, including representatives of the Prison Officers' Association, visited Great Britain to see at first hand what steps were being taken to deal with prisoners found to be HTLV III positive. Following consideration of the report of that visit and further consultation with the Prison Officers' Association, it was decided in the best interests of both staff and prisoners to confine prisoners diagnosed as antibody positive in one wing of Arbour Hill prison. Guidelines for dealing with these prisoners were issued to staff following consultations with the Prison Officers' Association. In addition, staff have received advice from medical officers on how to deal wth these prisoners. The Prison Officers' Association have expressed themselves as satisfied with these arrangements.
As the House will be aware from media reports, there are now around 50 prisoners, both male and female, who have been found positive and these are now segregated from other prisoners. I should like to emphasise that no prisoner has been diagnosed as suffering from AIDS but the number I have mentioned have been proven to have been in contact with the virus. The advice available to me is that only a very small percentage of these prisoners, if any at all, will go on to develop any symptoms of AIDS itself. In common with the health clinics in the community dealing with people who are antibody positive, the medical authorities in the prisons will monitor the condition of prisoners who are antibody positive.
As the House will also be aware, I have announced that the Government have agreed to the appointment of a Director of Medical Services for the Prison Service, as recommended by the Committee of Inquiry into the Penal System, in advance of consideration of other recommendations made by the committee in order to assist the prison service in coping with the problems it faces in the health area.
It will be clear from what I have said already that steps have been taken to deal with these problems and that further steps are planned. I should like to emphasise, however, that because of the limited ways in which this virus can be transmitted, there is no risk of an outbreak of AIDS or anything of that kind in the prisons once the proper precautions are taken.
I should like to pay a tribute to prison staff and to the Prison Officers' Association for the manner in which they have approached this issue—in marked contrast to the approach of others who do not have responsibility in this matter.
In Mountjoy there are 140 prisoners regarded by the medical officers as drug addicts and of whom 14 are female. On the question of the level of drug abuse in Mountjoy prison I am satisfied that exaggerated claims are sometimes made on this topic by released prisoners, contradicted just as frequently by other released prisoners though the contradictions do not receive the same media attention as the original claims. As I indicated on 27 November, cameras are being installed in the visiting rooms at Mountjoy in an effort to prevent drugs being passed to prisoners during visits. The contract for this work has been awarded and work will be completed as soon as possible.
Would the Minister not agree that a catalogue of four deaths in as many months must be regarded as a failure on his part, as political head of the Department, to plan ahead for the increased incidence of drug addiction in our prison system? Can he indicate the reason for the difference in the statement he made regarding the time at which the prisoner, Paul Kenna, was checked and found alive and the statement he has made now? This is a significant point and I expect the Minister to refer to it. Also, can he clarify whether the drugs prescribed for Paul Kenna were administered to him and whether there is any indication that these drugs were taken by the prisoner? I should like to here also from the Minister as to what treatment, if any, apart from detoxification, is given to the 140 prisoners in Mountjoy who are known to be drug addicts. Are there facilities in Mountjoy for any treatment other than detoxification?
(Limerick East): I reject the first part of the Deputy's contribution. I understand that the medication prescribed for the prisoner in question was taken. I do not accept the argument that the prison system cannot cope with the number of drug addicts now within the system. The position is that a number of people are being committed to prison following sentences for drug related offences. There are others who are sentenced for criminal offences but who are drug addicts. This is as a result of the crackdown on crime in the city. There are a great number of drug addicts in the prisons but they are being treated and are being detoxified. If any of these prisoners is of a non-violent nature I would be prepared to sign a release programme to have him sent to the Coolmine Centre or to Jervis Street Hospital but violent prisoners must be kept within the prison system.
Would the Minister agree that if he cannot control drugs in the prisons there is little chance for control in this area on the streets? There have been four deaths in our prisons in the past four months. Three of these were definitely drug related, but yet the Minister is not prepared to admit that there is a problem. As far back as 7 July 1983 there have been questions in the House concerning the difficulties in Mountjoy in respect of drugs. It is as a result of the Minister refusing to recognise the problem that we have now arrived at this worsening position. The Minister is now in his fourth year as Minister for Justice. Will he agree that because of a total lack of planning we are now at this stage in regard to the problem? The Minister has been grossly incompetent in his administration of the prisons.
The Deputy may not make a speech.
All the Minister's decisions have been ad hoc and have depended on the pressures of the day, just as is the case now.
The Deputy must ask a question.
In these circumstances will the Minister accept that he should take the course of handing over the prisons to a competent authority as recommended in the Whitaker report? That report indicated also that the prisons are being administered incompetently by the Minister.
(Limerick East): It is very difficult to be certain of what is the motification for any death in prison, but of the three deaths that had an association with drug taking there is far more evidence to suggest that they were as a result of the lack of illegal drugs in prison rather than the availability in prison of illegal drugs, that is, if the question of drugs was a motivating factor.
Regarding my competence and the competence of the prison system to deal with the problem, if Deputy Woods had done anything when he was Minister for Health my problems would not have been so great. At that time there was clear evidence that there was a drug problem in Dublin but blind eyes were turned so far as that matter was concerned.
The Minister is running away from his responsibilities.
(Limerick East): It was not until late 1982 that any action was taken to deal with the drug problem. If one is effective in dealing with drug problems in society, it is inevitable that there will be an increase in the number of addicts in the prison system; but these people are addicted before they go to prison. They are not becoming addicted while inside. I maintain also that it is impossible for me to give a guarantee that in a place like Mountjoy prison, where there are 420 or 430 inmates, no illegal drug will be taken. It would be impossible to institute that kind of regime. It would involve withdrawing the privileges of the vast majority of prisoners who have no association with drugs. It would mean cutting out visiting completely. There is no problem in terms of drugs from outside being taken into Mountjoy prison. All the evidence would suggest that there is very little drug abuse in the prison, despite the fact that in the prison there is a large body of drug addicts as a result of the activities of the Garda and the courts. I am saying that we treat these prisoners medically to detoxify them and that, if they are suitable, we will do everything in our power to allow them avail of the appropriate programme so as to enable them to break their habit of addiction. However, it is difficult for an addict in a private clinic, even one who is highly motivated and who has the support of family and friends, to break an addiction habit. The task would be very difficult within the prison system.
I asked the Minister to indicate what treatment, if any, apart from detoxification, is available in Mountjoy, but he has not answered that question. Can he indicate also why, despite the defence solicitor in the case of Paul Kenna indicating to the court that he considered that prisoner to be in need of psychological assessment, that observation was not noted and was not conveyed to the prison authorities? I should like to hear from the Minister, too, as to whether he stands over a statement from some spokesperson for his Department to the effect that it was not the responsibility of the prison service to pursue that matter, that it is a matter for the defence to arrange for psychological assessment of prisoners who are considered to be in need of such assessment.
(Limerick East): Detoxification programmes are provided for drug addicts within the prison system. Counselling is also provided to deal with their particular problems and if prisoners are suitable they are released on release programmes, principally to the Coolmine centre or to attend Jervis Street.
Regarding a request by a solicitor that this young man should be medically examined, I have already said that he was medically examined and was on medication prescribed by the medical staff in Mountjoy. The medication was for abuse of heroin and it was appropriate to helping the prisoner to cope with the physical effects of withdrawal from heroin.
The Minister has said once again that the problems are being exaggerated. He should be aware that the public are now scandalised by the position.
The Deputy should ask a question.
The confidence of the public is shaken. When will the medical director take up duty and when can we expect from the Minister a clear, comprehensive statement on the medical position in Mountjoy, which is now reaching almost epidemic proportions? We are being approached daily by people who are upset and concerned about that situation. When will the medical director be appointed and how soon can an authoritative, reliable and credible statement be made in relation to this situation?
The Deputy cannot continue making speeches.
(Dún Laoghaire): Irresponsible politics.
(Limerick East): We have had the usual innuendo waltz from Deputy Woods. The appointment of the medical director will be made by the Civil Service Commission. It will be advertised in the normal way and the position will be filled as quickly as possible. The Government have already made the decision. I notice the smiles on the faces of Deputies opposite. In our party we have a policy of advertising these posts publicly so that they can be competed for and the best candidate can be selected.
That type of response from a Minister for Justice is unworthy.
(Interruptions.)
(Limerick East): On 27 November when Deputy Woods became involved in a similar series of innuendoes I asked him to give to the Garda any information he might have about drugs going into Mountjoy. I would ask if he has done so, since I have not heard about it?
A Cheann Comhairle, could I answer that question? I have been challenged directly by the Minister.
I cannot allow argument across the floor.
I must answer. I did provide to the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána the names which were given to me of people supplying drugs to Mountjoy. I have never yet had a report back and I can show the letter.
(Interruptions.)
I hope the Minister heard me. I should be grateful for a reply.
I am calling Deputy De Rossa.
I want to address two points to the Minister which——
The Deputy must ask a question.
I am trying to address two questions to him and I should appreciate a specific reply. The Minister has indicated that where the prison authorities consider addicts or those who require treatment are suitable they will be referred to Jervis Street. Could he indicate what is done with those prisoners who are not regarded as suitable and what treatment is available inside prison other than detoxification? If a defence lawyer indicates that a psychological assessment of a particular defendant is required, is it the case that the Department and the prison authorities accept no responsibility? Does he not accept that if such a request had been noted the prison authorities would have taken a different approach to Paul Kenna when he was admitted to prison some days ago and that it is quite possible he might not now be dead?
(Limerick East): In court it is common practice for defence lawyers to ask the court to refer their clients for medical examination. If that request is made it is a matter for the courts. If any defence lawyer wants somebody to be medically examined in prison other than in the normal medical examination when a person is admitted, then the responsibility is on the lawyer to make that formal request.
That concludes Question Time.