asked the Minister for Education the total estimated savings to the Exchequer from the closure of Carysfort College.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Carysfort College Closure.
12.
The estimated savings to the Exchequer arising from the Government decision to close Carysfort college as a teacher training college must take into account the achievement of a better utilisation of resources in the remaining colleges of education, the future role of Carysfort and the extent to which this might offset projected expenditure in the provision of third-level places and the arrangements made for the re-deployment of staff.
As the two latter arrangements are dependent on the outcome of detailed discussions which it is proposed to hold at an early date with the management authorities of the Carysfort college and the representatives of the staff respectively, it is not possible at this stage to give a firm estimate of savings.
Is the Minister now saying that the Government's position in relation to the closing of Carysfort college has changed, that they are now negotiating to keep it open?
I think we should define what we mean by "closing". Carysfort, as a teacher training college, will no longer be used for that purpose. What will happen is that there will be discussions to identify alternative uses for Carysfort in the future, uses which will take account of the more rational utilisation of resources and which might offset projected expenditure in other areas, thereby generating a saving overall for the Exchequer.
In taking the decision, I take it that the Government must have had some idea as to what kind of saving would have been involved? It would appear from the announcement that it was intended to effect this closure or to put the college to some other use for the purpose of saving money. Could the Minister indicate what figure the Government had in mind in relation to the saving involved?
It is not possible to quantify savings because the amount of savings to be realised will depend on the extent of the rationalisation achieved and the avoidance of duplication of resources and of expenditure. I am hopeful that, in the final conclusion of this process of discussions, a new regime will be put in place which will be much more cost efficient, effective, and will be, in effect, a rationalisation procedure which will bring with it substantial savings which might not be immediately or readily quantifiable in precise money terms to the last penny. At that stage undoubtedly it will be possible to indicate an order of magnitude, but it would be premature to do so at this stage having regard to recent developments.
Deputies will be aware that this matter is before the House at present for discussion.
I accept that the Minister is telling us now that he has difficulty in relation to quantification. I want to take up with the Minister the term "closure" because it would appear that the wording used by Deputy De Rossa was entirely consistent with the wording used in items of correspondence emanating from the Minister's Department — the closure of Carysfort college. Therefore, I think that should be put on the record first of all. Could the Minister give an approximate figure for the saving? The Government and the Minister's Department must have arrived at some estimate in relation to the net savings about which the Minister talks.
In regard to the new situation the Minister outlined, in the general sense: are we talking about new management, about the displacement of the Sisters of Mercy? Are we talking about arrangements——
That would be more appropriate to the debate this evening.
It is directly in accordance with the Minister's reply. The Minister raised this matter himself and it is my duty to take the matter up. I am asking him: what kind of new management structure he envisages for a new situation.
I do not think I used the phrase "new management structure".
A new regime.
I said a new regime in the college, a new educational regime; I do not necessarily mean a new management regime. I will be speaking on the matter this evening in the debate when I will deal with the points the Deputy raises. But I am not prepared now or this evening to go into any details because I think that would be a bit previous, if I might put it like that, pending discussions with the people who are deeply interested, that is, the management of the college and the staff representatives. We will be having discussions with them. I am sure all of us in the House should have common case in this. We all want to see the best and most rational use made of these excellent facilities. I take it that the people on the other side are not here to try to score political points out of this. The question on the estimated savings is based, if you like, on the false premise, that being a misunderstanding of the term "closure". "Closure" refers to the cessor of the college as a teacher training college as we have known it. That is not to say it will not have another role or deal with other facets of that particular discipline in time to come, depending on the outcome of the discussions.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I cannot allow a duplication of a debate that is before the House.
Will the Minister indicate if under the new regime he is hoping to establish in Carysfort — I welcome his indication that Carysfort will not be closed — there will be some element of teacher training?
I do not exclude it but, as I indicated, it would be wrong of me to start anticipating what might be in the new educational regime. However, I would not exclude what the Deputy has suggested.
I welcome the Minister's statement that he would not exclude teacher training in the new regime.