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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 1986

Vol. 365 No. 1

Extradition Proceedings: Statements.

I wish to make a statement concerning the incidents surrounding extradition proceedings involving Miss Evelyn Glenholmes on Saturday, 22 March 1986.

An investigation has been carried out by the Garda authorities into the incidents in question. Statements have been taken from those members of the force who were in any way involved. In addition, a number of people, mainly journalists, who appeared to be likely to be in a position to provide useful information have been interviewed. The Garda have not sought to interview persons known to have been involved as associates or supporters of Miss Glenholmes.

A particular word of thanks is due to a number of journalists who had witnessed some of the events and who helped in the Garda investigation. They provided very useful information — without pointing a finger of blame at any identifiable person inside or outside the Garda Síochána. Some journalists, however, indicated that they were unable to agree to assist and among them were some who had, in the news media, made assertions which are denied by the Garda. I mention them because, although they were of course entirely within their legal rights in refusing to co-operate, an inescapable consequence is that the investigating gardaí were not in a position to seek clarification of various points arising from their media reports. They could not, for example, establish how far those journalists were referring to matters observed by themselves and from what distance, or to what extent they were relying on material supplied by others.

In the normal course of events, if a question is to be raised as to whether the Garda have improperly interfered with the liberty of a member of the public, it is for the person directly concerned to raise it and to make himself or herself available for interview. Alternatively, the complainant has the right to challenge the action of the Garda Síochána by taking legal proceedings. In this instance, however, some of the allegations made raise issues of public importance in a way that calls for a public response. Most of those allegations may be taken under two headings, viz. (1) allegations that the courtroom door was locked, closed or deliberately "blocked" by gardaí so as to prevent Miss Glenholmes leaving and (2) allegations that a member of the Garda Síochána fired shots indiscriminately or recklessly on the public street. Some account of events preceding the court decision to release Miss Glenholmes is necessary for an understanding of the role of the Garda Síochána in subsequent events.

On Friday, 21 March in the course of the relevant extradition proceedings, it became apparent to those concerned with representing the interests of the State on the legal side that there was a distinct possibility that, because of certain circumstances relating to the way in which the warrants of arrest had been issued in England, the District Court might decide that the warrants were insufficient.

In view of the apparent weakness in relation to the warrant which emerged in the course of the cross-examination of a member of the London Metropolitan Police Force on 21 March, the State sought and secured an adjournment and arrangements were made for the attendance in Dublin early the following morning of an official from the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in London for the purpose of clarifying the precise circumstances in which the warrants had been issued. In particular, it was hoped that the precise circumstances in which information had been laid before the London magistrate would be clarified by this official. As it turned out, the information that he gave on Saturday morning was not such as to assist in progressing the matter before the court.

It is important to note that the crimes of which the prisoner was being accused included several murders and other serious crimes. Contrary to what has been alleged or implied in certain quarters, the provision for the execution here of English warrants — the arrangement is of course reciprocal — is not something that follows from the Anglo-Irish Agreement or from some recent developments in Government policy. It is an arrangement for which legal provision exists under an Act of 1965. Subject always to scrupulous adherence to the provisions of the Act — which provides safeguards for the accused person, including a 15-day waiting period during which an accused person may go to the High Court — it is the duty both of the Garda Síochána and of the legal services of the State to take such steps as are open to them to ensure that persons are brought before the court to answer charges in every case where such a course is legally justified. This, apart from being a matter of duty in the general interests of the administration of justice, is also a duty arising from the international obligations of the State. And it is a duty which, in the implementation of the arrangements for extradition, requires that both the legal services and the police in the two jurisdictions concerned should provide such mutual assistance as is practicable and as is reasonably required to make the arrangements effective.

Against that background there were consultations between the services concerned in both jurisdictions. It was agreed that a new warrant would be sought as a matter of urgency in England, but only if and after the District Court had found against the existing ones and that, as soon as it was obtained, an inspector of the Garda Síochána would be informed by telephone and he would then apply to a district justice here for a provisional warrant for the re-arrest of Miss Glenholmes for the purpose of bringing her before the District Court. Contrary to certain suggestions that have been made, there is no question of a person being extradited on the basis of material supplied by telephone. Information supplied by telephone in that way has to be confirmed formally by legal documentation and the person arrested on a provisional warrant has available the full range of legal safeguards, including a court hearing. The issue of provisional warrants is in accordance with standard international practice and is specifically provided for by the Extradition Act, 1965.

Certain comments reported in the news media would suggest that there was something furtive about the making of those arrangements. There is no basis for that. Naturally, the fact that such arrangements were made was not going to be disclosed to the person concerned or to her legal representatives before effect had been given to them. But, beyond that point, there was no question of those responsible for the arrangements having any interest in concealing the fact that they had been made. It should be noted that effect would be given to the arrangements only in the event that the District Court might discharge Miss Glenholmes, as it subsequently did.

Because special arrangements were made to have telephone lines available, it was thought — erroneously in the event — that it would be possible to obtain the new, provisional, warrant within a very short time of any decision that the existing one was inadequate. On that basis a number of members of the Garda Síochána were informed by their superior officers of the proposed arrangements and they were instructed, in the event of Miss Glenholmes being released by the court, to keep her movements under close observation so that the expected new warrant could be executed when it became available. In the event, it took longer to obtain the new warrant than had been expected.

I turn now to the events in the courtroom, and will deal first with the principle. All members of the Garda Síochána, and especially members with any role in relation to courts or courtrooms, are well aware that the independent status of the courts must be respected in all circumstances and that no considerations of expediency could justify arrest or deliberate obstruction of movement within the courtroom, or indeed in the court precincts, of a person whose release has been ordered by the court.

I now deal with the facts. Despite some allegations about locked doors or closed doors, it is clear that at the relevant time the courtroom door in question was not and could not have been locked and, moreover, the evidence of those at the scene is such that it seems quite clear that suggestions that the door was closed are also unfounded. The only allegation in this respect that calls for any more detailed response is that the door was deliberately blocked by gardaí, with the result that Miss Glenholmes and her legal advisers had to leave by the district justice's room.

As has been reported in the news media, the courtroom in question is a small one, 20 feet by 18 feet. Apart from the district justice's desk, it has a number of benches so that, even in uncrowded conditions, free movement is effectively limited to the aisles surrounding the seated area. Moreover, the relevant door opens inwards into the room, in such a way that it substantially reduces speed of exit if any significant number of people are trying to get out quickly.

On the occasion in question the courtroom was full to the point where some people seeking admission could not be admitted and a number of those people remained outside the room, but in the vicinity. Among those in court were legal representatives, a fair number of journalists, members of the public, including associates of Miss Glenholmes, and gardaí. As it was necessary to provide for the discharge of various specific duties of a security nature, the number of gardaí had to be significantly higher than is usual at court hearings.

Amongst those waiting just outside the courtroom door were associates of Miss Glenholmes. There is ample evidence that, when the court's decision was announced and communicated to those outside, they or some of them sought to get in while various people inside, including journalists seeking interviews or wishing to file reports, were trying to get out. The result was that there was confusion for a short time, with a great deal of pushing and shoving.

I had occasion a few days ago to observe that a particular person was not there. I do not want to have to make that observation again. The Garda Síochána have stated that there was certainly no Garda plan to obstruct Miss Glenholmes in leaving the courtroom and that, as far as can be established by them, no member of the force sought to do so. There is, however, some conflict of evidence as to whether a small number of gardaí who at that stage were in the vicinity of the door were themselves caught up in the situation or were deliberately adding to the obstruction. What seems to be clear in any event is that those conditions lasted only a very short time — apparently, a matter of a minute or so — when Miss Glenholmes was taken by her legal advisers through the district justice's room from which she emerged into the same corridor as she would have reached had she come through the public door. There appears to be no dispute about the fact that, when moving along this corridor, she had full freedom of movement even though, obviously, the gardaí would have been physically in a position to block her movements either there or at some stage before she had passed through the gates of the court complex if that had been part of their plan.

I now turn to the firing of shots in Prince's Street, Dublin. The circumstances in which the shots were fired are stated in the Garda reports to be as follows.

By the time Miss Glenholmes reached the vicinity of Prince's Street, the fact that a provisional warrant for her arrest had been issued was known generally to members of the Garda Síochána on duty in the vicinity. Very shortly after that, a member of the detective branch saw a uniformed colleague on the ground and being beset by some members of the crowd and he went to his assistance. He in turn was manhandled by members of the crowd. At that point, the member, although armed, had not drawn his gun which was being carried out of sight but, despite that, he and a number of other members of the force heard a call from the crowd to have his gun taken from him. The language used was hostile.

As he was a person who had on a number of occasions given evidence against persons involved in crimes associated with paramilitary organisations and as some of those in the vicinity were persons well known to the gardaí to be involved in paramilitary activity, he believed that there was a strong likelihood that he was personally recognised — and not just recognised as being a member of the Garda Síochána — and that he was in imminent and serious danger of being disarmed. He therefore fired two warning shots in the air. While most of those concerned stood back at that stage, a small number did not, so he fired a third warning shot.

While references have been made to shooting over the heads of the crowd, there appears to be no serious suggestion that any of the three shots was fired otherwise than vertically.

I have already publicly stated that it is always a matter of very great concern if shots are fired in a public place with large numbers of people about. I reiterate that now. The Garda authorities have assured me that they fully share my concern and that they will vigorously maintain a policy of strict control as far as the use of firearms by members are concerned. What occurred on this occasion occurred in quite exceptional circumstances and does not in any way imply that there has been or will be any weakening of resolve in this respect. I must, however, also say that any attempt to disarm a member of the Garda Síochána whose duty it is to carry a firearm, or any incitement to others to engage in such an attempt, must be characterised as reckless and irresponsible and, despite the restraint which the gardaí are rightly called on to exercise in the general interests of the public, anybody who is involved in any such action cannot evade the primary responsibility for any untoward consequences.

As I indicated earlier, I believe that the matters in respect of which questions affecting the public interest have mainly arisen are: first, the allegation that the gardaí, by conduct in the courtroom, disregarded the special status of the courts, and, second, the firing of shots in a crowded central city area. I have dealt with those two matters in some detail. There were, of course, other incidents in between. They, however, concern primarily the person directly involved in the legal proceedings and those who were associated with her on that occasion. There are, nevertheless, some points even in relation to those matters on which I think it is appropriate to comment, on the basis that they are points in respect of which the element of public interest as distinct from private interest may reasonably be said to predominate.

Specifically, there were suggestions that the Garda Síochána acted in a highhanded and intimidatory fashion in relation to some members of the general public who were going about their business and who were not of their own volition involved in the various incidents. In particular, it was suggested that the gardaí commandeered a truck and used it to block a roadway and that, at other points, they blocked bridges or streets.

I am informed that the gardaí blocked no bridge or street and that there was no commandeering of a truck. In fact, I understand that the initial reports that such things had happened were contradicted in later reports. On a more general level, I have already mentioned that the arrangements that had been made between the agencies concerned in both jurisdictions were expected to result in a provisional warrant being obtained more quickly that it was in the event. This in turn contributed largely to the fact that the practical problems that arose for the Garda Síochána in seeking to maintain observation of Miss Glenholmes were substantially greater than had been anticipated. I can assure the House that everything that arose in the aftermath of the court decision is under review by the Garda authorities with a view to learning such lessons as may be learned from the various incidents. I would add, however, that just as the legal difficulties that arose had not arisen previously, they are likewise most unlikely to recur because, arising from the legal points that were raised on this occasion, the necessary precautions will have been taken in future cases by those concerned with the legal requirements and procedures. On that basis it seems highly unlikely that the gardaí will again have occasion to deal with a similar situation.

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to clarify two points raised in a speech reportedly made by the Fianna Fáil spokesman on Justice, Deputy Woods, on Friday last. I confine myself to points that are relevant to the matters I have dealt with in this statement. First, contrary to what Deputy Woods reportedly said, I did not promise a report on the affair within 24 hours and then within a few days. What I said quite clearly on a number of occasions was that I would make no statement until I had received a full report of the events. Second, Deputy Woods is reported as having said that I have an obligation to explain why the authorities here did not properly scrutinise the defective warrants. I must point out that it has been explained more than once that no amount of scrutiny of the warrants could have detected the deficiencies which emerged in the court proceedings and which the court held to be such as to invalidate the warrants. The reason is that what was at issue was not something that appeared in the warrants themselves but in the procedure that led to their being issued. The British Home Secretary has very frankly and fairly accepted that responsibility for what occurred in that respect rested entirely with London.

In association with this statement I am circulating to Deputies a diagram of the courtroom and the immediately surrounding area and I propose also to make it available to the library.

The statement read by the Minister on this very tragic and appalling affair is nothing short of a whitewash and a Pontius Pilate act. That is outlined very clearly when one takes into consideration the different statements the Minister has made. I ask the Minister in his reply to say whether the solicitor, the barrister and the District Court clerk concerned were questioned. The Minister said members of the force and a number of other people who appeared to be likely to be in a position to provide useful information had been interviewed and that the gardaí had not sought to interview persons known to have been involved as associates or supporters of Miss Glenholmes. Is the Minister suggesting that her lawyers and the District Court clerk are supporters of Miss Glenlholmes? Were they asked about the alleged blocking of the court?

The barrister spoke of structured lawlessness, a structured planned arrangement to frustrate the operation of the law. He also spoke of a plan to keep Miss Glenholmes amenable to re-arrest. Did the Minister ask the barrister for his views if that was the case? The solicitor and the barrister said that they tried to bring Miss Glenholmes through the exit, but it was blocked. Their view seemed to be different from that given by the Minister here today. They did not give the impression that the exit was blocked by journalists and others getting in the way. They said there was a specific attempt to block the doors of the court.

There is another aspect which is very relevant, but to which the Minister did not refer. There was a judicial finding that the court order granting freedom to Miss Glenholmes was frustrated by the action of the security forces. The Minister must say why the court found the order had been frustrated. I am surprised he did not mention this because it is very relevant. The Minister said there were pre-arranged plans. He said:

On Friday, 21 March, in the course of the relevant extradition proceedings, it became apparent to those concerned with representing the interests of the State on the legal side that there was a distinct possibility that, because of certain circumstances relating to the way in which the warrants of arrest had been issued in England, the District Court might decide that the warrants were insufficient.

The Minister told us plans were made——

Read the next sentence.

He claims that the nature of the plans were somewhat different. He said:

In view of the apparent weakness in relation to the warrant which emerged in the course of cross-examination of a member of the London Metropolitan Police Force on 21 March, the State sought and secured an adjournment and arrangements were made for the attendance in Dublin....

It was clear from Friday that there would be a difficulty. It is also clear that the court, not the media or the Opposition politicians but the court, made a finding, and the Minister has set it aside.

This episode is very similar in principle to what happened when a leading member of the Australian Mafiosa got away because it was found by the court that his liberty was improperly curtailed. A judge of the Supreme Court said at that time that there was a plan to deprive him of his liberty and that is why he was set free by the court. It is not as if the Minister did not have knowledge of similar cases, because there was this very highly publicised case earlier of which the Minister should have been aware.

In relation to the special arrangements being made by telephone, the Minister pointed out at some length that he had no responsibility in this area. He said it would not have been possible on the face of the second set of warrants to know they were defective — the first set had been found to be defective. As I said on the face of it, the warrants looked to be in order. Is the Minister suggesting that nobody asked any questions about the warrant, when it was sworn in, who swore it in and if it was in order? We are given the impression that there was no questioning of the second warrant which looked to be in order, but it did not take much questioning to discover that it had not been properly sworn in and that it was defective. I believe the Minister did not ensure that the warrants were properly scrutinised before they were presented to the court. I presume he was informed of what was happening but if he was not, he should have been.

The Minister said there were some preplanned arrangements but, in his view, they were not deliberately designed to frustrate the decision of the court. The court found that the order granting freedom to Miss Glenholmes was deliberately frustrated, but I will not say any more about that because that is a matter of record.

I want to know if the security forces were carrying out what they understood to be the wishes of the Minister, or if they were acting under specific instructions from the Minister. The Minister said:

... a number of members of the Garda Síochána were informed by their superior officers of the proposed arrangements and they were instructed, in the event of Miss Glenholmes being released by the court, to keep her movements under close observation so that the expected new warrant could be executed when it became available.

Who gave those instructions? Was the Minister aware of them? In what way were they given? What happened is not what the Minister told us here. He suggested that Miss Glenholmes should be kept under observation, but we know there was a plan to keep her amenable to re-arrest which is, in effect, what happened. The question the Minister failed to answer here is: under whose authority and general direction were the lives of the Garda and civilians put at risk in the shopping streets of Dublin following the court's decision to free Miss Glenholmes? It is not sufficient to talk about the situation in which an individual member of the force found himself because that was the result of what had gone before and was consequent on the instructions which had been given.

At the conclusion of his statement the Minister mentioned Mr. Hurd. He said that the British Home Secretary had very frankly and fairly accepted that responsibility for what occurred in that respect rested entirely in London. First, it is quite clear that the debacle was initiated by the incompetence of the British authorities and their apparent contempt for the rule of law in our courts, but the Minister might recollect that Mr. Hurd said when interviewed that the courts could have taken another view. He was very happy with his chum, the Minister, and with the Taoiseach, another chum of his, but he was not so happy with the Irish courts. I want to know whether the Government protested against such a statement and such a show of contempt for the Irish courts and the rule of law in Ireland indicated by that statement on the part of Mr. Hurd. The only other view the court could have taken was not to vindicate the liberty of the citizen in the circumstances, which the court was bound to do and did. Again we see a one-sided, "palsy" sort of summary from the Minister where his pal on the other side was a fairly nice fellow despite the fact that he showed utter contempt for the Irish courts in a statement which was totally unacceptable to this House, and the Minister should convey that to the British authorities when he meets them.

There is a clear need for a review of the whole question of the extradition of Irish citizens to other jurisdictions. The 1965 Extradition Act was never intended to apply to political offences. As we know, it excludes specifically a political offence or an offence connected with a political offence, and we know also that this worked very well as long as the concept of a political offence was interpreted in line with international law and as understood by the Oireachtas and practised by the courts here. However, we know also that the decision of the courts last year in the McGlinchey case, although made in the circumstances of that case, has led to confusion and uncertainty as to what would constitute a political offence at present in the eyes of the courts. The former Attorney General, Peter Sutherland, adopted a very high political profile in ensuring that this case was rushed through the courts here. It may well be that the Oireachtas will now have to clarify the situation by statute in accordance with the generally recognised principles of international law. This Government have created further uncertainly by the manner in which they rushed into signing the European Convention on the Prevention of Terrorism. Every other country except the UK has qualified its signature of the convention by making reservations protecting its own nationals from extradition or concerning the principles which should govern non-extradition for political offences. Unlike all these countries, the Coalition Government have made no reservations for the protection of our citizens or to cater for the provisions of the 1965 Extradition Act which prohibits extradition for political offences.

The Government have a duty to protect and vindicate the rights and liberty of Irish citizens especially when this means providing a fair and equitable trial and punishment in an environment free from political prejudice. Can the Coalition Government say that the Maguire Family, Giuseppe Conlon and the Birmingham six were given a fair trial under British justice as it applies to Irishmen today? In the eyes of Britain these Irish men and women were terrorists. They had already been subjected to trial by the British newspapers. In the eyes of any independent observer they were innocent. Does the Government expect us in future to surrender Irish citizens to this system of British justice without question?

The Economist of 29 March 1986 under a heading “Come out, we know you're in there” made an interesting comment on the British approach to extradition which I quote:

Fitting, really. Justice ministers and police forces in several countries might understandably smirk at Britain's difficulties in getting Miss Evelyn Glenholmes extradited from the Irish Republic. Bound by ancient laws, Britain is a black sheep among extraditing nations. It is harder for foreigners to retrieve their fugitives from British than from most other shores.

They go on to spell out some of the statistics in relation to that. Further on they say:

In 1978 Spain became so annoyed at the failure of its efforts to get criminals out of Britain that it abrogated the extradition treaty between the two countries. Spain and Britain now have a new treaty: but meanwhile, sun-seeking British criminals have reaped the benefits of the rift, setting up the so-called "Costa del Crime". The French authorities too have been miffed for some time, and the extradition procedures between France and Britain are now used only in the most serious cases. Britain's "refusal rate" would be much higher were it not for the fact that foreign judges know how hard it is to win an extradition from Britain and so sometimes do not even try.

Further on they say:

When the proposed criminal justice bill becomes law and Britain has some new general extradition law, it will be able to sign the European convention on extradition which, embarrassingly, it has been unable to do until now.

This is the jurisdiction with which the Minister is dealing, a jurisdiction which has shown contempt for our system of extradition here and for our courts. The Government should openly and honestly bring their intentions in relation to extradition before Dáil Éireann and state openly what precisely they mean now by the concept of a political offence and how they intend to apply this concept in future.

The fiasco surrounding the Glenholmes case also highlights the need for a review of the procedures for extradition as set out in the 1965 Act. At the very least consideration must be given now to the provision of prima facie evidence in support of extradition warrants for Irish citizens. A clear onus lies on the Government to end all the uncertainty which they have created where extradition is concerned. It is vital also that the Government are not slipshod in their administration of extradition procedures. It is essential that the Government state their intentions before Dáil Éireann and clarify the extradition process before the entire procedure falls into disrepute. Extradition is an extremely sensitive area, particularly where it concerns Irish citizens. The lessons of the Evelyn Glenholmes case must not be lost on this Government. They should review urgently their whole approach to extradition and give assurances to this House that this appalling debacle will not be repeated.

In conclusion, let me say that I find the Minister's statement very disappointing. He has said that in his view there was no problem with the doors. I do not think that anybody suggested seriously that the doors were locked. The suggestion, as I understood it, was that the doors were blocked and that the barrister went back to the judge to say that the doors were blocked, that he could not get his client out, that in those circumstances the situation was most unsatisfactory and effectively the order of the court was being frustrated. It looks as if the Minister did not consult the barrister and solicitor concerned. He has not told us if he did so. They made statements which we and the country are aware of. If he did not consult with them, is he saying that they were associates of Miss Glenholmes and that on that basis he did not question it? That is not good enough. It is not acceptable. Just as it is not acceptable for Mr. Hurd to show contempt for our courts, it is not acceptable for the Minister to show contempt for the members of our legal profession who are doing their duty in relation to the law. It is quite clear from what the courts have said that Miss Glenholmes was maintained in a situation in which she was amenable to re-arrest. It is also clear from what the Minister said at the beginning of his statement that some instruction to that effect was given by someone in higher authority. The Minister has not told us who, or exactly what instruction was given. That is the kernel of the problem as far as the blocking of the courts is concerned.

It is quite interesting that in 1964, before the 1965 Act came in, there was a case in which the court gave a decision on warrants, whereupon the authorities got new warrants and extradited without coming before the District Justice. This led to a new situation and was one of the factors which contributed to the change in the law in 1965. The events which surround the Glenholmes fiasco indicate two things very clearly. One is that we must once again review very thoroughly the whole question of extradition, particularly the question of prima facie evidence. Second, the Government must look once again at their policy and the impression which they are giving to various people in relation to extradition and the confusion and difficulties which are being created. The Minister has made it clear that special arrangements were made to provide telephone lines. The Minister has not clarified the general instructions which led subsequently to the debacle. In that sense, the whole statement by the Minister is very unsatisfactory.

I have listened carefully to the Minister's statement on this matter. While acknowledging its length and its detail one must nevertheless regret the fact that it is not by any means satisfactory. In certain respects it seems to be quite selective. It is very difficult to talk about this whole series of incidents, many of which are interconnected, without making any reference at all to what transpired and what was said at the second hearing on the Saturday, and that is very relevant to what had happened before and constitutes a judicial pronouncement on these matters which is of some importance even though the court concerned is only the District Court. It is, therefore, quite unrealistic of the Minister to have ignored this entirely in the course of a lengthy statement. It underlines, one fears, that he is endeavouring to be somewhat selective in the matters which he is talking about and in the manner in which he refers to them. Unfortunately, that serious omission from his statement takes something from the strength of what he has said in respect of the other matters.

The whole problem of extradition from this country to Great Britain and the North in the last four or five years in particular has become a very confused one and a very controversial one. Nearly all of these extraditions or attempted extraditions have given rise to difficulty and complaint of one kind or another and to a certain amount of public apprehension as to the basic propriety of the whole operation. It is regrettable, particularly at a time like this when this island is beset by terrorism, that there should be this level of public doubt about all the procedures that are involved and about the way in which they are carried out. As the Minister will know within the last couple of days, my party have announced their intention to put down a Bill in this House within the next week or so seeking to have certain aspects of the Extradition Act of 1965 amended to bring them into line with what seems to us, and probably to most people, to be the proper sort of procedures that should be followed in regard to these potentially very controversial activities.

The 1965 Act, for reasons best known to those who formulated it, distinguishes between extradition to Britain and Northern Ireland on the one hand and extradition to every other country in the world on the other hand. Since we, in this part of the island, have been independent of Britain since 1922, it seems very difficult to understand now why this distinction was drawn and why a totally different and much higher standard of proof is required in respect of extradition to any other country. The only explanation that one can see on the face of it for this rather anomalous position is the fact that the 1965 Act is carried forward from earlier legislation of the 19th century when these two islands constituted the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; it was necessary to have some procedure to move people from one jurisdiction to another within the then United Kingdom.

One of the legal jurisdictions at that time was Ireland, another was England and Wales and another was Scotland. If somebody was arrested in one of those jurisdictions in respect of an alleged crime for which he was wanted in another one of them, it was necessary to have some procedure to have him moved from one to the other even though, at that time, they were all within the one country. But the procedure was a relatively perfunctory one by comparison with extradition to a foreign country. To the best of my knowledge, the same procedure still remains in respect of, for example, extradition from Scotland where there is a separate jurisdiction and a separate legal system, to England, or from England to Scotland.

It seems to me that it would have been appropriate after we had achieved our independence that our extradition law would be changed and would reflect the sovereignty of this country. That was not done and, to the best of my knowledge, there was no extradition legislation in this country until the 1965 Act was introduced. That was brought about by the Quinn case where a gentleman was removed by the Garda and brought straight up to the Border from outside a courthouse where an order for his release had been obtained and was just pushed over the Border to the police in Northern Ireland. There was, naturally, a serious complaint about that at the time and the Bill on which the 1965 Act was founded was brought forward as a result. But curiously the 1965 Act retained the same sort of provision as existed when we were still part of the United Kingdom and I believe that this has contributed in no small way to a lot of the agitation and the difficulties we have had in recent times.

That is why in the Bill which we propose to bring forward the Progressive Democrats will suggest the repeal of Part III of the 1965 Act and instead to insert a provision in the Bill to say that the provisions of Part II of the 1965 Act, which relate to all other foreign countries, will also relate to extraditions to and from Britain and Northern Ireland. That will help to clarify matters and to restore public confidence in a system where public confidence has been badly shaken over the years.

One of the interesting aspects of the 1965 Act dealing with extradition is that it does not define the term "political offence". It deliberately did not define that term and the probability is that those who formulated the Bill were not keen to do that. Unfortunately, this is often a feature of the proceedings of this House. When particular nettles are regarded as being a little too difficult to grasp we tend to opt out of grasping them and let the courts grasp them. Our predecessors in 1965 deliberately did not define "political offence" and it was left to the courts, who, as they often have to do, filled that lacuna and defined the term "political offence". The definition of "political offence", which now stands as law in the same way as if it had been enacted in statute, is the definition by the then Chief Justice in December 1982 in the McGlinchey case. It could well be considered by this House as to whether the definition of "political offence" enunciated by Chief Justice O'Higgins should stand or be amended. It is open to us in this and the other House to amend it but, given the circumstances of the times in which we live, I query whether Chief Justice O'Higgins's definition is not correct. It may well be. It reflects reality to a very high degree and has removed itself from the slightly more generous view of political offenders which was common in the 19th century and in the earlier part of the 20th century. It looks not so much to the motives of the people involved as to the nature of their actions and it properly looks to the nature of their actions. However, that is a matter which could be debated in more detail when the Progressive Democrats bring forward their Bill. On first sight I am not anxious to change the definition of the term "political offence" as set out by Chief Justice O'Higgins.

It is interesting in a matter of this kind to look at the British media reaction because they have an entirely different standard when it comes to looking at events in this country from their attitude to events in other countries or in their own country. In this respect we can give two recent examples which are of some interest. There is tension between the British and Indian Governments at present because of the refusal of the British authorities to countenance the extradition of Sikhs who are wanted for alleged terrorist offences in India. The reluctance of the British authorities is based on the fact that the Indian authorities have not provided prima facie evidence of the involvement of the wanted Sikhs in terrorist offences in India. Quite properly the British authorities are reluctant to see such people extradited but they cannot have it both ways or complain if we bring our law vis-á-vis Britain into line with the way it is vis-á-vis every other country and the way British law is vis-á-vis other countries, including countries like India which up to relatively recently were colonies of Britain.

It is also interesting to note how little reaction there was in Britain and in the British media to a decision of a Dutch court within the past few weeks when two escapees from the Maze Prison in Northern Ireland, both of whom had been convicted of very serious terrorist offences, including murder, came before a Dutch court for extradition to Britain and, presumably, Northern Ireland. The Dutch court agreed to make an order of extradition in relation to one of them but refused in respect of the other. Those two gentlemen were not in the position in which Miss Glenholmes was or others who had simply been charged with offences; they had actually been convicted of very serious offences and had broken out of prison, which in itself is an offence after serving prison terms of some years there. The second offender was ordered not to be extradited from Holland on the grounds that, as the Dutch court saw it, his offence was a political one; and the distinction was drawn between the two on what to me seems rather nebulous grounds — that one series of offences were carried out against civilians and the other series carried out against policemen or non-civilians. If that happened in this country there would be an outcry in Britain, but there was very little about it. It was reported and regretted, but that was it. There was also no outcry in relation to the attitude of the British authorities towards the Sikhs living in the United Kingdom at present. This underlines the need for an urgent review of the whole extradition law and procedure here and, therefore, it is timely for us to bring forward this Bill. Because of its importance — I know it must be a matter of concern to the Minister and the Government at least as much as it is to all of us — I hope that the Bill will be looked at objectively and that its passage will not be blocked simply for political or opportunist reasons. If it needs amendment or expansion to cover some of the additional matters which we have been talking about today arising out of the Glenholmes incident I hope that amendments or expansions can be made.

We would be very unwise to allow our extradition law to remain as it is at the moment. I have enormous sympathy with the unfortunate gardaí in the court and on the streets who were confronted with such difficulties on that Saturday. If they did not act in a particular way they would have been open to very serious criticism and because they did act in a particular way they are open, from certain quarters at least, to very serious criticism. It is one of these classic no-win situations and I do not think our Garda should be put in that kind of position again. Our law on these matters should be clarified and, in particular, it should be impressed once again on the British authorities that this law and procedure is a technical one, that all courts, not just Irish but, as in the examples I have given, Dutch and other courts, are very assiduous in seeing that the people concerned get the benefit of the letter of the law in every respect. Therefore, the law must be clarified. The law in respect of all extradition should, in my view, be put on the same footing as far as all countries are concerned.

It is particularly urgent that this whole matter should be clarified because of the unfortunate tragic situation of terrorism that exists on this island. While that exists it is obviously essential for us, and for all other countries who are anxious that terrorism should be put down as rapidly as possible, to have a clear law where people know exactly where they stand and where all these procedural misunderstandings can finally come to an end.

My initial response to the Minister's statement is that as an investigation it seems to have been quite inadequate. The Minister opened by saying that the investigation was carried out by the Garda and that they did not seek to interview persons known to have been involved as associates or supporters of Miss Glenholmes. Whatever reservations the Garda may have had about interviewing supporters of Miss Glenholmes it would seem likely, at the very least, that the legal advisers or others such as relations and so on of Miss Glenholmes would have been ideal people to speak to in that presumably they would have been the closest to the events that occurred.

The Minister said that the Garda were not in a position to refute some statements made by some journalists because they refused to be interviewed and, therefore, the Garda were not in a position to judge from what distance or to what extent they were relying on material supplied by others. To some extent we are in the same position today. We do not know to what extent we are relying on material supplied by people and at what remove or distance they were from the events concerned. It seems that the investigation is not adequate, if one is to judge by the statement of the Minister today. For instance, apart from a reference to the garda who fired shots, there is no reference to the reports that two other gardaí drew weapons and that one of them went behind a car. We do not know if that report was accurate but the mere fact that it was not referred to in the report of the Garda investigation seems to indicate that the investigation was not all that thorough.

I should like to refer to the matter of the garda firing the shots. The Minister in his statement on this said:

As he was a person who had on a number of occasions given evidence against persons ... he believed that there was a strong likelihood that he was personally recognised — and not just recognised as being a member of the Garda Síochána — and that he was in imminent and serious danger of being disarmed.

I read through the regulations governing the use of firearms by the gardaí, published in The Irish Times on 25 March last, and I did not see any reference in them to the circumstances when gardaí might fire shots if they felt they might be disarmed. In fact, regulation No. 12 states:

The indiscriminate firing of shots over the heads of disorderly crowds or unarmed criminals in flight in the hope that they will desist from some unlawful act or surrender cannot be justified.

There is a failure in the Minister's statement to justify adequately the firing of shots by the garda concerned.

I do not have any intention of adding to the problems of the garda concerned but it seems that where gardaí are armed, particularly gardaí who are not in uniform, there is a clear responsibility on the Minister, and the Garda authorities, to have very strict well-defined regulations on when and how arms may be used, shots may be fired or arms drawn. It is not sufficient for the Minister to say that the member concerned felt that he was in imminent and serious danger of being disarmed. There is no reference in the statement to whether the call from the crowd was confirmed by an independent observer or if it was heard only by the garda or his colleagues. This statement is not an adequate response by the Minister and does not overcome the loss of confidence and the feeling of security which the public should have in the Garda or when in the presence of gardaí.

The main part of the blame for the debacle must rest with the British authorities. Whoever was responsible for drawing up the warrants was clearly incompetent. It is only right that if a person is to be extradited from this jurisdiction to Britain under our law all the warrants and other documentation should be subjected to the most rigorous scrutiny possible. There cannot and must not be any legal shortcuts in the process. There is no excuse in cases as serious as this for incompetence on either side. Whoever was responsible for drawing up the warrants in the office of the British Director of Public Prosecutions should have known that the warrants, and other documentation, should be closely examined. If there are errors the courts are obliged to rule the warrants invalid. That has always been the procedure since the extradition agreement with the British Government came into effect in 1965 and it has been the procedure in so-called political and non-political cases. There is even less excuse for the blunder on this occasion as previous warrants had been found to be invalid.

There is a need to look again at extradition procedures between this country and Britain. Extradition agreements between countries are normally based on the principle that a prima facie case has to be established before a person can be extradited. In the case of the agreement between this country and Britain extradition is on the basis of simply a warrant being issued and proved valid. We hold that extradition to Britain from Ireland must be on the basis of prima facie evidence and we urge that the legislation be amended to bring that into effect.

The right of any country to refuse to extradite a person wanted for political offences in another country has always been a recognised part of international law. This country should not be used, or be allowed to be used as a refuge for those accused of acts of terrorism. The Workers' Party do not consider the placing of bombs in pubs or in Wimpy bars to be a political act. It is a criminal act even if those who do so try to disguise their criminality by political slogans. The real victors in this whole episode have been the Provisional IRA. They scored a major publicity coup which no doubt they will use to the full to further their vicious campaign of sectarian murder and violence in Northern Ireland, as they have done in the past in Britain. The Garda have been the real losers. They have been made to look foolish and incompetent. Members of the public were shocked to see the Garda, seemingly out of control, running in the main street of our capital, one member firing over the heads of unarmed people. It has damaged the relationship between the ordinary man and woman in the street and the Garda.

To return to the question of the use of arms, it must be a matter of concern that the carrying of guns by all except the uniformed members of the Garda has now become the normal practice. Apparently it is no longer just members of the Special Detective Branch who carry guns; more and more ordinary detectives are doing so as well. There have been a number of unfortunate incidents in Britain in recent months arising from the carrying of weapons by the police there. Of course it will be remembered also that a man was shot dead in controversial circumstances by a garda in the North Wall in November 1982.

The Garda are operating under considerable pressure and risk arising from the greater use of guns by criminals. If we want to preserve the essentially unarmed status of the Garda it is vital that the carrying and use of guns be kept to an absolute minimum. One serious aspect of all of this is that those gardaí who carry weapons and who may be called on to use them are in plain clothes and are not readily identifiable as member of the Garda. I fear it will be only a matter of time before a tragedy occurs, that a plain clothes garda who produces a gun may be mistaken by a colleague or by a member of the public for a criminal, with disastrous consequences. If guns have to be carried by some gardaí — and I would prefer that they did not have to do so — they should be readily identifiable as being armed. The Minister must clearly define the circumstances in which guns may be drawn and used. Indeed, the competence of members of the Garda to carry guns must also be checked regularly, in particular their psychological suitability to be in possession of a weapon.

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