asked the Minister for the Public Service whether he has seen a report in the media (details supplied) suggesting that his Department are unable to collect reliable statistics on the numbers employed in different departments of the public sector and that this failure may be due in part to deliberate obstruction; whether there is any substance in this suggestion; and, if so, what he proposes to do about it.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Public Sector Statistics.
11.
I have seen the media report referred to.
The Civil Service is the only area for which I have direct responsibility. I am satisfied that the statistics available in my Department in respect of the Civil Service are adequate and reliable. They will, however, be further improved when a computerised personnel system at present being considered for the Civil Service generally is introduced.
As regards the wider public service I would hope that difficulties which have been encountered there will be surmounted when the co-ordinating role envisaged for my Department in Serving the Country Better is given statutory effect.
I do not accept the suggestion that there is deliberate obstruction in making information available.
May I ask the Minister if his Department have not done more than merely look at the media report which was all that was available to me when I put my question down? About ten days have gone by since the publication of this report. Have the Department studied this very important report? Does the Minister know if they have studied it? Perhaps I should tell the Minister, because it may not be in his brief, that the author acknowledges assistance from members of that Department in compiling his report.
I understand that the author's investigations related to a period a few years back and the report may not be totally up to date. In relation to the point raised by the Deputy, obviously the views expressed by such a reputable author are considered seriously. In the context of the question put down by the Deputy, I have gone to considerable trouble to find out the exact situation within the Civil Service and in the broader public service area. In relation to the Civil Service, for which I have direct statutory responsibility, the system we have at the moment, with some improvements which have occurred in recent years, is reliable and adequate but I see room for further improvement. That will happen when the computerised system is put in place. My Department recently went to tender for such a system and, subject to the availability of a system which meets all our requirements, it is intended to have a system operating on a pilot basis in at least two sites by the end of the year and further improvements will result.
In relation to the public service, at the moment I do not have statutory responsibility there but the upcoming legislation in this area will give me the statutory base which will enable us to provide a better authority for the assembling and analysis of information across the entire public service.
Would the Minister like to comment on the fact that 13 years after the establishment of a special Department whose purpose was to improve the public service, it should still not be possible for that Department to know how much goes out in pay each week or month, and to how many people in each Department in the Civil Service. Does he not think it amazing that a reputable author — as he rightly said and I would like to endorse that view — publishing under the aegis of the ESRI which is funded by the State, should use words like "ludicrous" and "bizarre" to describe the defects in the recording system of the State in regard to the number and locations of its own employees and how much is being paid out to them in salaries each week? Would he not regard it as a matter of first urgency to make sure that, at the very least, as Dr. Ross suggests, the pay computers of each Department should be linked to a central system so that week by week and month by month the Government can keep track of how well each Department are keeping within their budget, given that pay is the big end of the pot in every Department pay out?
I cannot account for what happened in the past 13 years. I can relate only to the situation in the past 13 weeks during which I have been in the Department. As I have mentioned, we must be clear on the distinction between what occurs within the Civil Service for which the Department of the Public Service have direct statutory responsibility and the situation in the broader public service for which the Department do not have such direct responsibility as yet. One reason for the decision in the White Paper to provide for that co-ordinating role is the very point the Deputy raised. The upcoming legislation will give that broader co-ordinating function to the Department. However, I would like to make it clear, in case there is any suggestion that people may be paid who are not part of the authorised establishment of the Department——
I am not suggesting that.
—— that there is no question of that. It is a question of improving. I hope this year to see an improvement of the technology and an improvement of the statutory role of the Department of the Public Service. Those combined will enable the situation to be very much improved.
Deputy B. Ahern on a final question.
One more question——
I am calling on Deputy Ahern.
This report is very useful in a number of ways, but the question that receives a great deal of publicity and attention is only in relation to the number of people working in the Department of the Public Service. Does the Minister really need statutory control to find out how many teachers and doctors there are? All of these agencies have to send in returns to the various Departments they are linked to. They are on approved complements and are allowed to employ only on grants-in-aid or the deficit funding which they receive from Government Departments. That practice has been in operation in most organisations since the sixties and in the health boards since 1971. The Minister needs neither a computer nor statutory control to do a head count. What Departments, agencies or semi-State companies is the Minister referring to when he says that he is not happy with the figures returned? I understand that his Department have all this information and that this was on a tot of the figures which came in. Were some of these figures left out or what is the difficulty?
There is no difficulty in relation to the Civil Service itself, although from the point of view of removing time lags and having statistics available at the press of a button and more up to date, the new technology would help. In the broader public sector there is need for the statutory role of the Department of the Public Service. Let me quote a few examples of the difficulties, to give the House a better appreciation of the situation. If the Department had this statutory role, with the improvement in technology we would get much greater improvements from the point of view of the broader public sector. Let us look at some of the difficulties.
We cannot debate the whole question.
I am anxious to give information if the House seeks it. I want to mention briefly, first of all, several different kinds of teachers. We have national, secondary, special school, comprehensive, community, vocational, university and other institutions of higher education and other school employees who are not teachers at all. Then we go into the area of whole time incremental, whole time temporary, part time and all these aspects in relation to them. Therefore, it is not quite as easy as it looks. But I assure the House that during this year, with the new legislation and with the new technology being put in place, I hope particularly in relation to the broader public sector to have an improved situation.
There are other questions.
I want to ask one question.
It is not reasonable to spend all day on this.
We are not under great pressure.
We are under great pressure because there are about ten more questions to be answered in a quarter of an hour.
Let me ask one final question.
I will allow you to ask a short question, not to make a speech.
In regard to the Minister's denial that there can be any question of obstruction, would he like to comment on the author saying that his experience has been that resentment or feeling of Departments over the embargo which has had the effect of reducing staff numbers has made them less willing to provide material which he regards as a mere bureaucratic irrelevancy on the part of the Department of the Public Service? That is what I would call obstruction.
I have no evidence to support the suggestion made by the Deputy. It could be said that the provision of statistics does not receive the level of priority that other work receives in other Departments. That may be a contributory factor.