asked the Minister for Labour if he has an advisory section to assist people emigrating from the country; if so, if he will give details; and the funds which are allocated to such a project.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Assistance for Emigrants.
8.
My Department are responsible for overseeing the implementation of procedures governing the free movement of workers within the EC, which includes workers leaving Ireland to work elsewhere in the Community and vice versa. As Minister for Labour, I regard my main responsibilities for assisting workers contemplating employment abroad as being to provide information and advice on employment and training opportunities at home, to enable them to make an informed choice, and to discourage as far as possible unplanned and ill-prepared migration.
Pre-departure information and advice to prospective emigrants is provided by the National Manpower Service, and is funded from the general finances of the service. Recent initiatives include:
(1) Since August 1985 the placement and guidance staff at NMS offices advise young people considering emigration of the difficulties which they may encounter if they fail to prepare themselves properly and try to dissuade those who appear to lack the necessary resources or qualifications to secure employment overseas especially in the United Kingdom. In order to familiarise themselves fully for this task occupational guidance officers of the NMS have had briefing sessions with officers of voluntary organisations involved in emigrant welfare work who have first hand experience of the realities of the situation.
(2) The Careers Information Section of the NMS are at present preparing a booklet in the careers series which will provide information and advice for young people about working abroad and the kind of precautions and safeguards which are necessary to avoid the pitfalls relating to accommodation, job-search difficulties, social security problems, etc. This leaflet will be distributed through NMS offices, schools, etc., in the normal way.
(3) The NMS participate in SEDOC — the EC information exchange system whereby job-seekers in Ireland may apply for vacancies in other member states.
In addition to these official measures the Dublin based Emigrant Welfare Bureau which are a voluntary body provide information and advisory services to persons leaving Ireland. The bureau receive a Government grant on the recommendation of Dion — the Committee on Emigrant Welfare Services which I established in June 1984 and who have responsibility for advising me on emigrant welfare services. Dion also advise on the allocation of State financial assistance towards the employment of professional workers at reception centres in Britain dealing with the problems of newly arrived Irish workers. In 1986, the Government allocated £155,000 for this purpose which is an increase of 49 per cent over the 1985 allocation of £104,000.
At last some people in the National Manpower Service and the Minister's office have realised that probably about 25,000 people a year are emigrating. When similar questions were asked last year or the year before, almost always the answer was that there was no necessity to do anything. Various emigrant agencies came to this country to lobby the Government and the Opposition to highlight the major problems which are arising in places such as Kilburn where there are massive numbers of Irish people arriving weekly with no advice and assistance and who have not got the foggiest notion of their entitlements. It appears that because this question was put down the National Manpower Service have informed the Minister that they will now set up an information section and will issue a pamphlet. Would the Minister not admit to the House that this is about three years too late because this is an issue I raised back in 1984? What is the delay? Is there no commitment within the National Manpower Service or the Department to assisting these people once they leave the country?
I am sure the Minister has met some of the people from Kilburn or other parts of the United Kingdom. The Irish people arriving there are being very badly treated, are living in appalling conditions and have no idea of their benefits or welfare arrangements. They find it very difficult to obtain work except in areas where they are exploited under the labour laws by employers who are unscrupulously treating them as second class citizens.
Can I say in relation to the figures that there has been confusion which has not helped any of us in this debate? If one regards emigration as the net outflow of people from this island, taking one year against another the statistics which I have given consistently over the years have been accurate. What Deputy Ahern has said in relation to the 25,000 people is not necessarily inaccurate either. What we are counting is the number of people and the Deputy is referring to the approximate numbers of people who are leaving this island. The census data given to me also showed the number of people who are returning. Since they are returning, they are not necessarily a problem. We have got into a false position in the past in relation to what the exact amount of the problem was in terms of numbers. At a recent conference with chaplains related to emigrant welfare services abroad I attempted to resolve this matter.
With regard to why this information was given, I have to tell the Deputy that his question has not prompted this response. This documentation has been in preparation for some time. This Government — and I take responsibility for it — decided that for too long we have been hiding behind the reality of this problem which has existed not since the Government came to power but since 1922 and going back further. I changed the very nature of the previous committee which had responsibility for welfare services abroad. At that time, the vast majority of the membership were based in Ireland and, despite their concern for the people involved, had not got the day to day experience of people living in the United Kingdom. I changed the composition and structure of the committee and renamed it to use the Irish word "Dion" which means roof or shelter. We gave them considerably increased resources. In 1984, the amount of money available to Dion or Cowsa, their predecessors, was £38,000. As I indicated in my reply it is now £155,000. Their concern is primarily in providing a welfare service for those people who are unable to cope for themselves and who present themselves, sometimes in desperation, at the doors of an Irish centre, usually in a UK city.
I want to say, and put it on the record for those people who think that running away to England is a solution to their problems, that for most young people there is a better support system in this country in terms of educational training than there is in the United Kingdom. Many people who leave this country and go to England do so for reasons not directly related to unemployment. They go for other reasons. Many of them go because they want a better job and others go because they want a change. That is not to say that economics is a driving factor. Both Deputy Ahern and Deputy Fahey have met people who left jobs in this country. Therefore, it is not exclusively for employment.
My concern as Minister for Labour is to ensure that anybody who decides to leave has all the facts at his or her command and knows exactly what they are going to, which is frequently not the case. As regards people who are not trained or adequately prepared, there is an obligation upon all of us to ensure that they exhaust all of the opportunities which exist before they decide to leave. I am satisfied from detailed discussions I have had with individuals in the welfare services in the greater cities in Britain and with officials in the Department of Employment in the UK, including the Secretary, Mr. Clarke, and his predecessor, Tom King, that here we have a better support system for young people than the United Kingdom. All Deputies confronted by people who are contemplating leaving should advise them to exhaust all the possibilities available to them here before going.
I agree with much of what the Minister has said, but the question still must be asked about what we as a people are doing to assist those going abroad. Would he ask the Minister for Social Welfare to instruct labour exchanges to recommend to young people who are signing off with the intention of emigrating to seek the advice of The National Manpower Service to assist them? The services may be there for people who go to look for them but those who are leaving the placement network are not getting advice and the result is an appalling emigration problem which the Minister knows well. I do not want to play it up or down, but large numbers of young Irish people are arriving in parts of London without hope. We cannot just draw a line under their names and say they have left the country and we no longer have responsibility. We could do many things but we are doing very little. The figure referred to by the Minister, £155,000, is very little if an impact is to be made in this area.
I welcome Deputy Ahern's support and his frankness. We must all be prepared to realise that this problem exists and we must ensure that the National Manpower Service will deal with it honestly and that they will not be open to the charge that they are giving people information about situations abroad and consequently that they are encouraging people to emigrate. I will undertake to ensure that the maximum information will be made available in the manner Deputy Ahern has suggested.