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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 May 1986

Vol. 367 No. 2

Estimates, 1986. - Courts Bill, 1986: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Bill provides that actions in the High Court for damages for personal injuries will be tried in future by a judge sitting alone, rather than by a judge and jury as at present. Juries will remain available, however, in cases involving false imprisonment, or intentional trespass to the person, that is assault and battery, even if the damages claimed include damages for personal injuries. Juries will also continue in actions for defamation, malicious prosecution and for certain probate and matrimonial matters. I will have a little more to say about these exclusions later, but at this stage I will just mention that they account for a small fraction of jury cases, and that the cases affected by the Bill, primarily negligence actions for personal injuries as a result of road accidents or accidents at work, account for the vast bulk of jury actions coming before the High Court. I need hardly say that the Bill will not affect juries in criminal cases. There is, of course, a constitutional right to trial by jury on a serious criminal charge which is subject only to the exceptions set out in Article 38 but the Constitution does not contain any reference to trial by jury in civil cases.

Before dealing with the questions of policy that are involved, it might be useful to say something about the history of civil jury trials, and about important developments that have affected their availability in the courts. For a long period after jury trial had achieved its present form by the 15th century — trial by one's peers envisaged in Magna Carta was an essentially different process — trial by jury was the only form available in the common law courts. In the Court of Chancery a jury's findings on issues of fact could be obtained by sending that issue to a common law court but that was rarely availed of and for all practical purposes chancery cases were decided by a judge sitting alone. There has been, for well over 100 years now, a gradual erosion of the right to jury trial in civil matters.

The Common Law Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1854, provided that the parties might, on consent, and with the approval of the court, allow issues of fact to be tried by a judge alone. The same Act provided that where an issue consisted wholly or mainly of matters of account it might, on the application of either party, be determined in a summary manner by a judge, or might be referred by him to an arbitrator — the outcome in either event to have the same effect as the finding of a jury. Rules made under the Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877, obliged a party requiring a jury trial to state this when setting down his action for trial.

The Chancery (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1858, provided that the right to a jury in chancery actions should be in the discretion of the judge. The Courts of Justice Act, 1924, provided that no party to an action for a liquidated sum, or for damages for breach of contract, or for the recovery of land, should be entitled to a jury unless the court considered that a jury was necessary or desirable. The result of these developments is that jury trial in the High Court, which as I have indicated was once the only form of trial in the common law courts, now occurs, for all practical purposes and with limited exceptions, only in personal injury cases.

I should perhaps mention previous consideration given to the question of civil juries in recent times. In their Third Interim Report in 1965 the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure, by the narrowest of majorities — six to five — recommended that the right to civil jury trial should continue in the High Court. They also recommended that the right to civil jury trial in the Circuit Court should be abolished and this was effected by a provision in the Courts Act, 1971. The committee returned to the issue in their 20th Interim Report in 1978. Although they considered the matter only incidentally, they reaffirmed their earlier view that no change should be made in the High Court jury system.

In 1972 the "O'Connor Committee", who were established to inquire into the insurance industry, concluded that juries should be retained to decide liability in negligence cases, but that the responsibility for deciding the quantum of damages should rest with the judge assisted by assessors. More recently the Prices Advisory Committee on Motor Insurance — the "McLiam Committee"— concluded in their report in 1982 that, while in their view the jury system should remain, certain changes were needed to deal with problems of inconsistency and unfairness that arose from the operation of the system in deciding motor insurance cases.

I have dwelt at some length on these aspects to show that historically the trend has been to reduce the use of juries in deciding civil cases, and to show that the question of the abolition of civil juries has been a matter of debate for some time.

It is clear from the court committee's report that strong arguments arise on both sides of the issue, and that there are strongly divided views on the matter. This is true even of the judges. Professor Bryan McMahon in his article Jury Trial for Personal Injury cases in Ireland published in May 1985 in The Irish Times found that High Court judges who responded to a questionnaire from him were evenly split on the central issue and views given to my predecessor by some of the superior court judges also revealed strongly divided opinions on the part of the judges.

It was against this general review of the present operation of the civil jury system and in the context of the renewed debate on the issue in relation to insurance matters, that the Government decided in principle last year to change the present system and asked my predecessor to examine alternative arrangements for deciding these cases. The Bill which is before the House is the end product of that exercise. During his examination of the question of alternatives, my predecessor considered the various possible options for reform of the jury system.

These include:

—first, retaining the present jury system for determining liability and damages in personal injury cases, but empowering the trial judge to indicate the going rate for general damages in comparable cases to the jury, who would be free to depart from such range in the particular case;

—second, retaining juries to determine liability but not damages;

—third, replacing juries by a judge sitting with assessors to advise or make recommendations on damages;

—fourth, introducing a statutory tariff for general damages for personal injury cases;

—fifth, introducing a statutory maximum for general damages;

—sixth, replacing juries by a judge sitting alone to decide on liability and damages in all cases;

—seventh, allowing juries to decide on liability and damages in exceptional cases, with all other cases being decided by a judge sitting alone.

After careful consideration of all of these options the Government decided that the best arrangement was to replace civil juries with a single judge sitting alone to decide the issues of liability and damages in personal injuries cases.

The growth in personal injury cases coming before the High Court in recent years has focused greater attention on the awards being made by juries in those cases. The high level of some awards attracted much publicity and a growing belief in some quarters that the incidence of excessive awards in these cases had become unacceptable. The "McLiam Committee" found evidence that awards given by juries were sometimes remarkably unpredictable, varying widely between cases where the circumstances appeared to be similar. They emphasised the unfairness of such a situation on litigants, and the difficulties which this unpredictability created for the insurance industry. They concluded that it would be in the interest of justice, and conducive to the proper management of motor insurance, if a greater degree of consistency could be achieved in the assessment of damages, bearing in mind the over-riding requirement of doing justice between the parties.

The Supreme Court was also concerned about excessive jury awards, and in three important judgements delivered between 1983 and 1984, brought about substantial changes in the basis for assessing the quantum of damages in personal injury cases. In the last of these cases they indicated that a limit of £150,000 should apply generally to awards of general damages for pain and suffering and loss of the amenities of life in the most extreme cases of personal injuries unless there are particular circumstances which suggest otherwise. The then Chief Justice had remarked in that case that in attempting to compensate for very serious injury "all sense of reality may be lost", and he considered that "a yardstick of a reasonable nature must be applied if reality is to be retained in the assessment of such compensation".

The court decided also that in cases where sufficient damages had been awarded to cover all loss and bodily needs and to enable the plaintiff to live in comparative comfort, having regard to the disability, that fact should be reflected in the amount of damages for pain and suffering; that, where damages have been assessed under several headings, the total sum and the income it could generate should be considered by the jury in order to enable them to judge whether it is out of all proportion to the circumstances; that in assessing the amount for future loss of earnings actuarial figures are only a guideline and on making the assessment the jury should consider evidence relating to the risk of unemployment, redundancy, illness, accident or marriage prospects. The cases show a concern on the part of the Supreme Court at what it regarded as clearly excessive awards.

The high level of damages awarded in the courts in such cases have a major bearing on the amounts for which insurers will settle personal injuries claims outside the courts. Insurers say that such claims are settled under the shadow of a court hearing and that the proven unpredictability of jury awards has had a destabilising effect on the settlement process, reflected ultimately in the cost of insurance. One judge of the Supreme Court, in a recent case, observed that the proliferation of personal injuries claims, and the significantly high number of serious cases, appeared to have induced among lawyers and insurers alike a degree of what he called, "monetary punch drunkenness" that had tended to remove reality from such settlements. The levels of awards by juries for personal injuries are inevitably reflected in the amounts agreed in settlements which comprise about 95 per cent of personal injuries claims.

Of course it could be argued that the changes which the Supreme Court has been introducing recently in assessing damages might, of themselves, cure the problems associated with excessive jury awards. Again I have to stress that the issue has been looked at by the Government on its merits, in the light of the historical arguments for and against having civil juries to decide personal injuries cases, as well as recent judicial developments, and debate on the issue. The Government's conclusion was that the balance of advantage now clearly favours the abolition of juries for such cases.

I would now like to turn to some of the main points that have been raised in regard to trial of civil liability cases by a judge sitting alone. One of the most important arguments made in favour of juries is founded on the social, civil and educational values of juries. Jury service, it is said, gives a sense of community responsibility, is an educating force in the community and acquaints citizens with justice as it is in practice administered. It helps, it is claimed, to teach the members of juries that they have a share in the society in which they live and tends to make the law intelligible.

While there is undoubtedly force in that argument, it would constitute a far stronger argument if jury trials were used at present over the whole range of civil litigation. But that is not the case. As I have mentioned, for all practical purposes nowadays civil juries are used only in cases arising out of motor accidents and accidents at work. All other civil cases, with a few exceptions, have either always been decided by a judge sitting alone, or have been so decided for a very long time. There is also the plain fact that in modern circumstances most people regard jury service as a burden and many go to great lengths to avoid it. This is an inevitable conclusion from the most recent figures provided to me by the courts. They show that only about 30 per cent of those called for jury service in the High Court for civil actions actually attend. The others either claim exemptions to which they are entitled, seek and obtain exemptions at the discretion of the court, or simply do not turn up. I understand that it is very rare for the courts to receive a request to participate in jury service. This means that it is necessary to call over 10,000 people a year to service civil jury trials in the High Court in Dublin, so that much marshalling of resources and a significant amount of High Court time is involved. It is also worth noting, although perhaps not too much should be read into it, that the strong minority view expressed in the Committee of Court Practice and Procedure in 1965 in favour of abolition of civil juries was subscribed to by three or the four lay members of the committee.

There is an assumption in some quarters that the object of the Government's proposal to replace civil juries is to reduce awards in personal injuries cases generally. That is simply not correct. The purpose is to avoid excessive awards as far as possible and to bring consistency and predictability into awards given. It is necessary to be very cautious in speculating what effect the measure might have on the general level of damages awarded apart from the expected effect that it will obviate excessive awards. For one thing, it is quite possible that the impact of the recent Supreme Court decisions on the assessment of damages may be greater than any effect on the general level of damages that might follow from the replacement of juries by judges sitting alone, or at any rate that it may be impossible to distinguish between the two cases. Moreover, although the incidence of personal injuries cases heard in the High Court by a judge sitting alone with the consent of the parties has not been great, what indications there are show that a judge can be no less generous than a jury when it comes to assessing damages in serious cases. Furthermore, judges sitting alone have been deciding personal injuries cases in the Circuit Court since 1972, and there has been no public reaction as far as I am aware, against the level of damages awarded in the Circuit Court. Since the jurisdiction of that court to hear tort actions was increased to £15,000 in 1982, more serious cases are now being decided in the Circuit Court and I am not aware of any claim that Circuit Court judges are making inadequate awards, even in cases where minor injuries are involved.

Some of the concern about the possibility of unduly low awards from judges sitting alone arises from the fact that awards in England, where jury trials have disappeared for all practical purposes, have traditionally been much lower than awards made by Irish juries; but comparisons with the situation in England are not valid. Without wishing to go into the matter in too much detail, I must point out that there are crucial differences in the way in which damages for future pecuniary costs or losses are assessed in the two jurisdictions — one important difference is the reluctance of English courts to make use of actuarial evidence — and as to how account is taken of inflation.

The maximum general damages which British Courts are prepared to award in respect of pain and suffering and loss of amenities in connection with injuries of maximum severity have been considerably lower that the amount of £150,000, already referred to, which our Supreme Court judges have set as a general guideline. In fact, the level of awards for serious injuries in England has come under increasing criticism in recent years for being too low, and very recent awards there have borne out the general expectation that British awards will rise. For example, in two cases of very serious injury reported in England in December 1985, damages equivalent to £799,000 and £683,000 in Irish pounds were awarded. These were record awards by British courts.

Spokesmen for the insurance industry are not presuming that damages will fall when assessed by judges. In fact, they have expressed the view that it is unlikely that judges will reduce awards from the prevailing levels.

One can claim with confidence that a greater degree of consistency will prevail in relation to awards under the new system and that excessive awards will be largely avoided. This is likely to come about when all personal injuries cases are being decided continually by a body of experienced judges, compared with the "once off" shot by a jury who have no prior experience of the task. If, as no doubt will happen, variations arise between individual judges in the amount of damages they award, the Supreme Court will be available to correct awards that deviate from an acceptable norm, not only to reduce awards that are too high but also to increase such awards as are unacceptably low.

It is to be expected that the Supreme Court will be more ready to interfere with a reasoned decision of a judge and over the years an acceptable and more or less predictable pattern should emerge. This is of the greatest importance to litigants who need to know with some certainty what they may expect to receive if they incur the expense of going to court, not least so as to enable them to decide whether and for what amount they can settle their claim without going to actual trial. There is good reason to believe that the increased predictability of awards in personal injuries cases under the new arrangement proposed will enable insurers to settle claims more quickly.

Insurers say that the benefits of this will be passed on to the general insuring public, through, at the very least, a reduced need to increase insurance premiums and, depending on the overall outcome of the new arrangements, in possible reductions in premiums. I can assure the House that my colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who has responsibility for supervising the insurance industry, will be concerned to ensure that economies that arise for insurers from the changes that are proposed in this Bill will be passed on the insuring public.

Among the main objections that were put forward in 1965 when the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure were considering the question, was the fact that there were only four High Court judges available at that time to hear cases; that judges were inclined to be either plaintiffs' judges or defendants' judges and that the result of cases would be a foregone conclusion; and that judges, by reason of their occupation, would be isolated and out of touch with present day standards of conduct and value. It was urged on the committee that where only three or four judges were available, that tendency would be more marked. However, the position has changed since then and there are now 16 judges in the High Court, including the President. I am confident that the powers that will be invested in the High Court Judiciary by this Bill will be discharged in a fair and proper manner, and in a way that will have due regard for current values. I have already referred to the availability of the Supreme Court to correct awards made in the High Court which are either too high or too low.

There has never been much doubt that civil trials by judges alone are likely to take a considerably shorter time than jury trials. Some people who are close to the operation of the courts estimate that the saving in time could be of the order of one third or one half. This has obvious benefits for litigants. They can expect to have their cases dealt with more quickly and possibly at reduced cost as fewer cases may be expected to come before the courts and those that do would be dealt with more quickly. The need for the multiplicity of legal representatives who appear for both sides in these cases at present will be looked at critically in the context of the new arrangements.

Hear, hear.

Coming to the specific provisions in the Bill, the Government considered that its scope should be confined to actions involving personal injuries, and that juries should remain for other types of High Court cases that are heard by juries at present. These are cases such as libel and slander, probate actions, false imprisonment and malicious prosecution. In these types of cases the evidence often relates to the actions, motives and behaviour of the parties, sometimes over a period of time and the liberty of the individual and his good name are involved in some of them. The Government accept that jury trial is the most suitable way of deciding such cases.

Subsection (1) of section 1 is the substantive provision to abolish juries in personal injuries cases in the High Court. The extension of the scope of the measure to include cases arising under section 48 of the Civil Liability Act, 1961 and section 18 of the Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1936, is to ensure that dependency actions for damages arising from the death of a person that is caused by the wrongful act, neglect or default of another, will come within the new arrangements. Issues arise in such cases similar to those in personal injuries cases, and already the amounts of compensation that may be awarded in such cases for mental distress resulting from the death fall to be decided by the judge alone under the legislation to which I have just referred.

Subsection (2) of section 1 specifies the actions for personal injuries that are covered by the Bill. These are actions claiming damages in respect of personal injuries based on negligence, nuisance or breach of duty whether the duty exists by virtue of a contract or a provision made by or under a statute, or independently of any contract or any such provision. I draw the attention of Deputies first of all to the exclusion of cases where the damages claimed include damages for false imprisonment or for cases of intentional trespass to the person, more commonly known as assault and battery cases. Such cases are not intended to come within the scope of the Bill for the policy reasons I have just mentioned. But because personal injuries may arise in such cases it is necessary to have a specific provision excluding such cases from the scope of the Bill.

The only other provision I want to comment on at this stage is subsection (3) of section 4. That is a saving provision for cases where notice of trial has been served before the date on which the Act is passed. When a notice of trial is served it is necessary for the party setting it down to indicate if trial by jury is required. The Government considered that where this had been done in a personal injuries case before the Act was passed the case should be heard with a jury. Given the existing delays in the High Court in hearing cases which have been set down for trial, the effect of this saving provision is that juries will continue to operate in personal injuries cases for a period of between 12 to 24 months after the Act is passed. Sections 2 and 3 are purely consequential.

It has been claimed that a much more radical approach is needed to the settlement of claims for personal injuries. At present our system, which exists in the area of tort law, is based on proof of fault by somebody — if no fault is proved compensation for the injury cannot normally be claimed. It has been urged that we should follow the example of some other countries and work towards the creation of a no-fault system of compensation. I recognise the force of that argument. For now, I will say only that any such development would be a very long term one which would require long and careful consideration. Very difficult constitutional and other problems could arise. We have not entered into that area with the measures proposed in this Bill.

I commend the Bill to the House.

The Government's proposal is that the right of a citizen to pursue an action in the High Court to recover damages for personal injury shall not in future be accompanied by the right to a trial by jury which at present is provided under Irish law. The Government are seeking to abolish juries in such civil cases so that in future all claims, no matter how large or serious for the injured citizen, which are pressed to a court decision will be decided by a judge sitting alone without the assistance of a jury.

The Government set out on this course initially by stating on 7 February 1986 that their aim was "to make litigation in this area easier and cheaper" and to bring "more predictability into awards for personal injuries". That was in the press statement of 7 February 1986 issued through the Government Information Service by the then Minister Deputy Noonan. It outlined the general purpose of the Bill which is along the lines stated by the Minister here tonight. It concluded by saying that the Department of Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism who had responsibility for supervising the operation of the insurance industry would be concerned to ensure that savings accruing to the industry from the new arrangements would be passed on to the insuring public. At that stage the Minister had in mind that savings would accrue and that those savings would be passed on to the insuring public.

The media coverage at the time made it clear that this was the Government's understanding and intention at the time. On 25 May 1986 the Taoiseach said, that when the Government took away the right of citizens to a jury trial in personal injury and accident cases, they would expect cheaper insurance premiums in return. There is no doubt that the Government's intention originally, and even as late as last week, was that this measure of itself would lead to savings in this area which could be passed on to the motorist in particular and to employers in relation to employers' liability. In the middle of all that the insurance industry stated quite clearly that this measure will not result in a fall in premium costs, although they claim that it could contribute to greater stability in insurance costs in the future. That is a very vague statement for such a major measure as is proposed at present. Many factors can contribute to stability. The drop in the incidence of stolen and rammed cars which the Minister has referred to in recent times should mean a drop in insurance costs and premiums in the future because, obviously, the spate of expense we all went through at that stage was related to the number of accidents and the number of claims from the Motor Insurers' Bureau.

In any event, the insurance industry are adamant that the abolition of the jury system will not result in an immediate drop in premiums although it may in time contribute in some way. This was accentuated in a "Morning Ireland" programme when the spokesman for the industry, when pressed about the question of premiums coming down, said the hope was that they would be contained and that following the abolition of the jury system other things would follow, such as the streamlining of the whole system, the reduction in the severity and the number of accidents, the surveillance by the Garda authorities of the alcohol problems and the dangerous driving problems, the absence of over-representation by the legal profession, particularly barristers, in court hearings.

The industry are not claiming that the abolition of the jury system will of itself have an effect in reducing premium costs and we should be honest about that. Tonight the Minister has been at pains to point out that this measure on its own will not result in a fall in premiums which is a change from what the Taoiseach said only last week and from what the Minister's predecessor said in introducing this measure.

We in Fianna Fáil have considered this matter at length and have taken into account the views expressed by the Government, the employers' organisations and the representatives of insurance companies who all favour the abolition of juries and, on the other hand, the views expressed by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Bar Council and the individual trade unions who oppose the measure. We have come to the conclusion that the case for the abolition of juries has not been established. This is borne out by the findings of three independent commissions. In addition, the direction of what the Government are saying has been changed to something more vague and general than what has been said publicly up to this time. They speak about stability and predictability in the future, but gone is the thing the motorist is interested in, the reduction in premium costs as soon as possible.

We all recognise the burden that has been placed on the motorist and on the employer in relation to employers' liability insurance. The question is: is this measure the measure that it was supposed to be in the first instance and will it have those effects? I hardly have to ask that question because the Minister has answered it. He said clearly that it will not result in a reduction at this time and he is now talking more or less along the lines of the industry and saying that sometime in the future there will be more stability. The conclusions we came to have been borne out by the findings of three independent commissions the latest of which was chaired by Mr. Niall McLiam and referred to by the Minister. It reported in December 1982. Each of these commissions concluded that the citizen should retain the right to a jury trial in the more serious cases. But what we are proposing here is the abolition of juries in all cases as defined in the Bill.

However, we do not accept the status quo. While we would prefer to see the jury system retained in the interests of the ordinary citizen, we are proposing the following steps which it has been shown will definitely reduce insurance costs. The industry are clear that, if we want a reduction in costs, we need to do other things mentioned by the industry. The first of these is the reform of the jury system by allowing the judge to give guidelines to a jury on the level of general damages which may be appropriate for a particular injury, for example, the loss of an eye or a leg. The Supreme Court have already placed an upper limit of £150,000 on general damages. It is important here to remember the kinds of people we are talking about in this instance when talking about the upper limit. We are talking about people who have been very seriously injured — paraplegics and quadri-plegics and people with massive brain damage whose future life may be totally destroyed.

The Supreme Court have already put an upper limit of £150,000 on general damages in this respect. The Minister mentioned this matter but did not elaborate on it. He gave seven options but said that after careful consideration the Government decided that the best arrangement was to replace civil juries by a single judge sitting alone to decide the issues of liability and damages in personal injury cases. The Minister did not tell us why he did not go for the first option put forward, which was the option proposed by the commission of inquiry which did a very extensive and interesting study into this whole area.

Secondly the jury must continue, in our view, to decide the degree of negligence or liability. This, in effect, is the legal determination of the guilt or fault of an individual. In this respect the jury have a particular relevance, especially in very serious cases.

Thirdly, special damages are not a problem for a jury, since both judge and counsel can already give guidelines and advice to the jury, for example, in relation to medical costs. That appears to work to most people's satisfaction. Why not then allow a similar freedom to the judge in relation to general damages?

The cost of awards and legal costs in civil actions could be reduced by some or all of the following measures: first, to drop the requirement for two senior counsel. The Bar Council say that two senior counsel should be required only in complex or difficult cases. Nobody is obliged to have two seniors and one junior. The principal reason for having two is apparently the listing system. The unpredictability of this system means that barristers are obliged to operate what is effectively a limited partnership arrangement to cover the vagaries of the system. It is noteworthy that the insurance companies use two senior counsel in each case to protect their interests.

Here we have a system which has grown up over the years and which now is causing very considerable public concern, if not even public scandal. It is time somebody addressed this problem but it is not quite as simplistic as we are often given to understand. There are complexities. There is the question of providing for people who do not have the money to challenge and pursue a case in court and the fact that these counsel may pursue a case on a no fault, no fee basis is tied in with the arrangement in relation to the two senior counsel. With the way in which the listing system operates, because of the uncertainty and difficulty of getting back into the court, counsel may have to stay around the court for a number of days on a particular case. Obviously, they can deal with the situation more efficiently.

This probably started out as a response to a system which was not catering adequately for requirements. Surely we have come to the stage when the system can be overhauled to ensure that this is not necessary. The Bar Council have indicated that on simpler cases there should not be need for two senior counsel. This is something that should be looked at. The Minister made no reference to it tonight although it should be urgently examined and could, according to all the reports, quite clearly contribute significantly to a reduction in costs. Of course, it will also create a cost at court level in providing more judges. That is probably one of the main requirements.

Secondly, with regard to changing the listing system, the motor insurers regard this system as a major cause of their problems. They say if the juries go, so does the list. This is not the case. Lists will still apply if a judge replaces a jury. The solution for the listing system is to provide more High Court Judges.

We have heard a great deal of reference to the system in England and the way in which it operates. In England many more judges were provided. Therefore, they could forecast accurately when a case would be taken. The Minister has referred to the bottleneck in pointing out, for a different reason, that in 1965 there were only perhaps four or six judges available. The number now is 16. Obviously, there was a bottleneck and one of the great concerns of the House in the past few years has been to increase the number of judges so that cases could be heard. The whole organisation and arrangement contributes to significant savings in time and cost.

Thirdly, to raise the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court from its present limit of £15,000 to a new ceiling of £25,000 to £30,000 would limit the possibility of a jury trial to claims above this figure, again retaining the jury trial for the more serious claims.

Fourthly, to reduce medical costs — these can account for the major part of an award. For example, in a High Court case an award of £181,000 was made which included £119,000, or almost two-thirds, for past and future hospital expenses. I know of a case of a young man who had a very tragic accident. While crossing the road, he was knocked down and lost a leg. His case eventually came up, but he had been very worried in case there would not be a jury. I am getting correspondence from people who have the same concern. I know the Minister has said that any of the cases listed at the moment will still be covered but that is the kind of worry affecting the victims of car and other accidents.

When it came to determining the cost in this young man's case a of providing a replacement leg over the future years — this was a very young and fit man — the insurance company wanted to give him something of the order of £13,000. The Rehabilitation Institute assessed it at £50,000 or £60,000, to be realistic about what he would be facing in the future. He was very worried in case the insurance company's offer proved inadequate. In the event, the case started in court before a jury but after the first session the insurance company withdrew and gave him a halfway allowance for the replacement leg, of the order of £27,000 or £30,000. That probably is not adequate for what the man must face in the future. His accident happened two years ago and he is already on his fourth replacement leg, each of which cost over £1,000.

These matters do not work out quite so simply as one might think. The insurance company were not going to go above their very meagre offer, despite the advice of the medical people, which is probably very realistic and honest in relation to the actual cost in the future.

However, because the jury were there the insurance company assessed the situation. It looked as if the jury might go with them. They made an offer on that and on other things in the interval for the lunch break and the case was settled. Obviously it will not be enough to meet his requirements for the future.

As regards serious medical cases we are not talking about leaving people in clover. The medical costs can be very high. In this way the State levies some £4 million per annum on medical costs on motor insurance which does not apply to other accidents. The McLiam report suggested that the State demand for payment for services associated with car accidents should be restricted to the period of one year from the date of the accident. After that one should go back to the normal State provision of medical care without having it deducted from the allocation which was received. Nothing has been done about that. At present it has been stopped following a Supreme Court challenge. New legislation will bring the system back into operation shortly.

The fifth point is the control of specialists' costs. Specialists can claim £320 a day for standing by in case they are called. More written reports should be accepted in advance. These costs apply whether appearing before a judge alone or a judge and jury. I have heard it said that these specialists costs would be much simpler if there were not a jury. I do not see how that can be because the case will have to be proved before a judge if not a judge and jury. There may be a means of simplifying the procedures. There have been recommendations that they could be simplified but this could be done in any event — whether there is a judge alone or a judge and jury.

The sixth point is the elimination of the cost of uninsured drivers. This is astronomical. It is estimated by the Motor Insurance Bureau that the cost of outstanding claims in 1986 would be £48 million. Elsewhere I saw the figure of £25 million as the amount to be paid out in the course of 1986. The McLiam report gives various figures. They increased very much over the period 1981-84 which relates to the very high incidence of car robberies, stolen cars, car rammings and so on. This is one of the largest potential areas for saving and it must be tackled immediately. These are measures which will give a response. We will be able to reduce the premium because the cost will be cut down. It is estimated that at least £70 of the average motorist's insurance is used to meet claims against uninsured drivers. I am sure most drivers would welcome a reduction of £70 or even £50 in the cost of their motor insurance. That area can and should be tackled. It could have a direct bearing on the costs which we are all very anxious to see reduced.

The seventh point is to cut accidents and enforce the law. The greatest potential for savings is in reducing accidents on the roads and in the workplace. Better driving, more effective law enforcement and more attention to safety at work would cut insurance costs. It is extraordinary that companies which pay many hundreds of thousands of pounds in employers' liability insurance make little effort to bring the statutory safety measures onto the factory floor. I have looked into a number of these cases. The companies who complain about paying out that sort of money will not adopt the safety procedures which have been spelled out very clearly not alone by this House but by inquiries and studies, the most recent being the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work report, 1983. We have difficulty in getting these measures adopted by people and in tackling the basic causes of accidents both on the motor side and on the shop floor in industry.

I spoke to older people who say that, down through the years, the employee was always regarded as the one who was at fault and who was accident prone. This report throws that overboard. It analyses and examines this question in great detail. It gives statistics and facts which show that is a lot of rubbish and is not true. Yet we go on reading about it and listening to it. Old people will think there is nothing new in that, that it has been the same story year after year. Why do we go on doing things this way? When we know what must be done why not do it, so that we will cut down the rate of accidents?

The incidence of road deaths per head of population in the Republic, as stated in the McLiam report in December 1982, was twice that recorded in Britain. They also found that it was reducing. They urged more intensive law enforcement particularly in regard to driving with excess amounts of alcohol and various other areas of law enforcement. Obviously if we reduce the incidence of accidents we will have substantial savings

The eight point refers to periodic payments and risk reviews. The purpose of these is to relate the compensation more closely to the real needs. In England at present there is a basic payment against the risk of getting arthritis later in life. The payment in that respect is minimal. This is adjusted upwards after some years if the arthritis actually occurs. There is less reliance on guesswork and there is a follow on. A combination of advance lump sums followed by periodic payments may be more equitable to all concerned. That should be looked at.

The eighth point refers to periodic payto reviewing the social welfare code as it applies to compensation. It is claimed that it is possible to get 180 per cent of salary through a combination of social welfare payments and compensation. It states that this matter should be considered in depth to ensure that the outcome is fair, equitable and reasonable.

I have just outlined some of the measures which will directly influence the cost of premiums for motorists and employers. If dealt with, they can reduce the cost of insurance. The measure the Minister is proposing — the abolition of juries — on his own admission and on the admission of the industry will not reduce the cost of premiums. At best it will be a factor which could, in the view of some people, contribute towards future stability; but even the industry has pointed out that the other measures outlined should be adopted urgently.

When we look at the role of the jury we find that in themselves they cost very little. All the people who sit on juries get is their lunch. They are not very expensive. The Minister has told us that there is considerable inconvenience, but there is inconvenience in any democratic process such as this. The Minister made the point that the man in the street does not want to be bothered with juries. I do not find it that way; and, when I questioned some local people about jury service, they told me they were very happy to have participated in that service. I accept that some people, because of their work and so on may not wish to act on a jury. The Minister said that others claim exemptions to which they are entitled, but they are entitled to those exemptions for very good reasons. When the Minister is working out his figures he should not take them into account as part of the overall percentage. The Minister feels that it is an inconvenience to be calling people during the year for civil jury trials in the High Court. He has a point in that it means inviting those people to come along, meeting them and giving them a lunch, but is democracy worth the crust? I am sure the House is inconvenienced by our discussing business which must be regarded as very important but is left for debate late at night.

Suggesting that people who are asked to serve on juries in civil actions are being inconvenienced is going a little too far in relation to the participation by people in any of our democratic processes. Juries cost very little, but they set the standards for the treatment of citizens who have been injured. That is their key, central role. They come, they give their view and they go. They have no vested interest other than their understanding and compassion. Any error on their part is likely to be on the side of the ordinary citizen. If one counts the number of times a jury erred one will find that it was more often on the side of the ordinary citizen who has been injured, and, possibly, maimed for life.

There is nothing wrong with that.

That is the point. What is wrong with that? How hard-faced have we become if we are not prepared to suffer the inconvenience of calling people up and arranging lunches and so on for them so that they can set the standards which we live by? Are juries to be condemned because of their understanding and fairness? We must remember that they are the paymasters. It is those people who pay motor insurance premiums, tax and PRSI. If we could get them closer into the system it would be interesting to get their views. It is unfortunate that it is hard to bring them into the front line of the system as it operates. Clearly, they are not part of the professional or financial establishments. That is a strong argument in their favour. Should a jury of 12 men and women not be the arbiters of the will and standards of the people?

I do not mind what is done in England. The authorities there are welcome to do what they like. The reality is that the jury system was abolished in England during the last war. To be honest, England is very much an establishment country and this system was a great inconvenience to them. It was left aside and fell into disuse. I was interested to hear the Minister's comment on this tonight, because he was more honest than either his predecessor or the Taoiseach have been in relation to this area. He indicated that the fact that awards in England are lower must be seen in the light of many circumstances and in the light of the type of compassion people have for those who are handicapped or injured as a result of accidents. I understand that in England they are saying that perhaps they have not been treating people very well; but how did they get into that predicament? They did not get into it by having juries of ordinary decent English men and women who would indicate the standards which should apply.

I should like to refer to a quotation by Justice Douglas of the American Supreme Court in regard to juries. He said:

A jury reflects the attitudes and mores of the community from which it is drawn. It lives only for the day and does justice according to its limits. The group of 12, who are drawn to hear a case, makes the decision and melts away. It is not present the next day to be criticised. It is the one governmental agency that has no ambition.

Is it not wonderful to think that we can have 12 people give a verdict and set a standard? Those people do not have any connections? Certainly those people are not open to backhanders or any involvement. Justice Douglas went on:

It is as human as the people who make it up. It is sometimes the victim of passion. But it also takes the sharp edges off a law and uses conscience to ameliorate a hardship. Since it is of and from the community, it gives the law an acceptance which verdicts of judges could not do.

There is a lot of truth in what Justice Douglas had to say. We should listen to such views before we throw away an institution which sets a standard for us in this area.

While the Minister made much play on the fact that in the Circuit Court cases are settled in a fairly streamlined way and without great difficulty, I could give him cases where one judge was giving £500 and another £15,000. There is no point in going into that as there are variations between judges. We have a study going on on the other side in relation to sentencing policy to try to find some means of getting greater uniformity in sentencing because judges vary considerably in their sentencing approach.

The jury system is a very valuable institution. Although juries do not sit in the Circuit Court, I am suggesting that those figures should be raised. We must remember that the standards set — this is a point which is made on the other side of the argument in favour of abolishing juries — by the jury affect the whole system. If we get rid of that we could presumably drop the standard and that would result in the lowering of awards generally.

In criminal cases the State relies on juries. There is a specific constitutional guarantee of a right to a jury trial in serious crime. I was glad to hear the Minister say tonight that he had no intention of doing away with that right. He even went so far as to say he does not intend to do anything with it. I was afraid to mention it because if it was not in the Constitution, we might find somebody trying to get rid of that because of its inconvenience. The Minister has made his position clear on that.

Are the victims of serious accidents and negligence to be treated less seriously than persons accused of crime? The civil jury trial is an old and long established institution. In the United States of America there is a constitutional right to a jury trial in civil cases. Reports on the civil jury trials in Scotland in 1959 and in Northern Ireland in 1970 came down in favour of retaining jury trials in civil actions. I spoke to a man recently about employers' liability. Employers on our side of the Border were complaining that in Northern Ireland the cost was much lower. This man made the point that we should do away with juries. They still have juries in the North of Ireland and they have them on our side of the Border, and yet the cost is much lower in the North. Therefore, it is not the jury system which is affecting it. That is the point which seems to have been generally admitted and agreed at this stage. Even as recently as last week it did not seem to be. It is an interesting comparison that in the North of Ireland they decided not to do away with the jury system. Indeed, if they had I am sure the Minister would have been telling us that was a reason for doing it.

The Pearson Commission in 1978 did a very extensive and exhaustive study of the area and looked at the situation all around the world. Although not willing to revive the jury action in England where it lapsed during the World War and has not been used since 1965, the commission refused to recommend its abolition in Northern Ireland where it still survives. Here, in Ireland the question has been examined exhaustively by three separate independent commissions to which the Minister referred earlier tonight. These included representations from the insurance industry.

Although each report put forward measures to reduce the cost of insurance, none of them favoured the abolition of juries. The most recent of these reports was in 1982 entitled the report of inquiry into the cost and methods of providing motor insurance. In the light of their findings, they made numerous recommendations which they were confident would collectively lead to a substantial reduction in the cost of motor insurance. The report is dated 30 December 1982 so it was available to the Minister from day one in 1983. It is a very interesting and extensive report which sets out measures which will lead directly to a reduction in the cost of insurance and premiums. It did not favour the abolition of juries. The commission detailed the numerous measures which could be taken to cut insurance costs substantially including the review of legal liability and the system of assessing liability and damages or compensation. Although, they recommended changes in the operation of the listing system for civil actions, here we are in 1986 and nothing has been done. The one thing they found that would not contribute to a reduction in costs and which should not be done was the abolition of juries. That is the one which comes forward to us. I find this very strange and illogical. They also recommended the simplification of procedures and said that the relevant laws were adequate but enforcement was lacking.

Although they recommended these changes and many more, nevertheless, they concluded that the jury system should be retained and said:

There should be no change in the system of jury trial other than that in a High Court hearing for damages for injuries. The trial judge should be permitted to inform the jury as to what he estimates to be the going rate of general damages for the sort of injuries proved in the circumstances of the particular case.

As the system operates at present, neither counsel nor the trial judge may suggest any figures to the jury for general damages whether past or future. It is in the area of general damages that variations in awards are more likely to occur. By and large special damages, for example, medical and hospital fees and loss of earnings are a matter of proof and mathematics. Figures are suggested to the jury by counsel and the judge and actuarial evidence is given but, in the case of general damages, neither counsel nor the judge may give any assistance to the jury.

The committee of enquiry recommended that this rule should be changed to allow the judge, but not the counsel, at his discretion to inform the jury as to what he estimates to be the going rate of general damages for the sort of injuries proved in the particular case bearing in mind other jury awards and especially awards as assessed by the Supreme Court while, at the same time, making it clear to the jury that they are at liberty to depart from this normal range in the particular case if they think fit. This seems to be an eminently practical proposal and one which would meet any reasonable objection to jury trials.

The Committee of Inquiry, having considered submissions from the Federation of Insurers in Ireland and the Irish Insurance Association, concluded that whatever the merits or demerits of trials by jury, "It is so essential a part of our system of justice that we do not consider that it should be called into question in relation to the legal determination of guilt. In the context of motor insurance claims, this is the determination of comparative negligence or liability of those involved in accidents. The object must be to secure a level of award which is just, fair, and practicable".

I would have a higher regard for the determination of what is fair and just and practicable by a jury or ordinary citizens than by a judge sitting alone. The MacLiam Inquiry was a particularly interesting one, covering all the areas we are talking about. It pointed to many of the remedies that should be taken. It indicated the position of the Motor Insurers Bureau and went through the increasing demands on the bureau. In 1978, the cost of the bureau was £2.1 million; in 1979, it was £2.6 million; in 1980, £5.4 million; and in 1981, £8.9 million. It has escalated rapidly since then.

We hope that the costs of those claims will be brought down if attention is given by the Garda and if they are supported in dealing with the theft and driving of uninsured cars. As recently as 1979 the cost to the bureau was £2.6 million and this year it is £25 million, without estimating outstanding claims. The increase has been dramatic and car thefts, the smashing of the cars and claims in respect of uninsured driving have driven the cost up steeply. That could taper off again with the decline in car thefts.

The driving of uninsured cars is still at a high level. The MacLiam Inquiry pointed to the steps that should be taken and dealt with special and general damages, repair costs, etc. One must bear in mind that repairs had a 23 per cent VAT rate which was reduced to 5 per cent and was increased this year to 10 per cent. That should bring about a reduction in costs to the insurers. That could be a large contributory factor in insurers' costs.

The MacLiam Inquiry spelled out the legal costs and the difference between Ireland and Britain in this respect and the need to deal with the court listing system and procedures generally. The inquiry pointed to the kind of savings that could be made and dealt with uninsured driving, the number of such offences during the years and the rate at which it was increasing.

In my opinion, therefore, the cost of awards would not be affected greatly by the abolition of the jury system. The MacLiam report showed that only 20 per cent of all accident claims went to solicitors and of these 20 per cent were listed for court hearings. Only 4 per cent of all claims go to the courts and only 0.2 per cent of these are heard by juries because of the tendency of insurance companies to settle on the steps. The number of cases actually heard by juries is extremely small.

These figures are very important because one of the arguments made by the Minister and others is that if you do away with juries you will speed up the court process. The Minister said that a jury would take a third longer than a judge to determine a case—one and a half days instead of one day. A jury would take longer than a judge, but if so few cases are actually ending before juries what possible influence can that have on actual cost? The effect must be infinitesmal. Even if the whole 4 per cent of claims went before juries it would have very little effect on the cost. How, therefore, could the 0.2 per cent cases heard by juries have any influence on the cost of anything? It could not. It is no wonder the insurance industry say that the abolition of juries would not result in savings. Therefore, the argument in favour of abolition of juries is not tenable and it is not particularly helpful because it would tend to confuse people, allow people to think that there may be some benefit which they would receive but which obviously they will not.

It has been argued that even the small proportion of claims determined by a judge and jury contributes to the standard of settlements for injuries. The argument is that, even though cases dealt with by judges and juries is small, that number contributes to the standard of settlements for injuries. This brings me back to my original question of who will set the standards for the victims? How do we want to live our lives and what kind of standards do we want?

I accept the argument that even the small number of cases that come before juries have an influence in setting the standard; but why should not the ordinary citizen, with guidance from the judiciary, be the arbiter of standards for his fellow-citizens who fall victim to accidents and who may be maimed for life? The alternative is for members of the legal profession to control totally both the procedure and the level of compensation and consequently, the standards to be observed by employers and drivers. If we do away with juries we will leave the legal profession totally to control the procedure and level of compensation and the setting of the standards which will have to be observed by all. The availability of a jury trial serves the useful social function of discouraging and even preventing litigation from becoming the domain of an exclusive professional group of lawyers, judges and advocates. It is based on the belief that a decision by one man or woman alone is potentially inferior to a collective decision of ordinary citizens. That is the basis on which the jury system is founded and it is an important one.

The Minister has not pursued the argument tonight but it is what has been made prior to this in favour of the abolition of the jury system, namely, that premiums could be reduced. That argument is not tenable and even at this stage it is not being pursued very actively. The basic question still being pursued is that of the standards that are set in the area generally. There has been much talk about variations, consistency and predictability. These are nice phrases for deflecting attention from the basic element, namely, the standards we apply as a community in respect of people who are maimed or seriously injured.

The Minister's statement was comprehensive. He mentioned that the Supreme Court has set a limit in recent times and that that is a factor to be considered. He said "the proven unpredictability of jury awards has had a destabilising effect on the settlement process". I do not think that is a tenable argument. They may set a standard possibly higher than some judges would set, but unpredictability can apply to judges as well. The Minister hopes to cover that point by the Supreme Court setting the standard and ensuring that the guidelines and parameters are correctly laid out and are known. If that is to be the case, why not leave the parameters to a jury? I trust the House is aware that jury awards have moderated greatly in the past year or 18 months. In a way it reflects their attitude to inflation and other factors. The Minister referred to "monetary punch drunkenness", but he was quick to say he was citing someone else's quotation in case he might be taken as saying that himself. It is a clever use of a quotation while avoiding responsibility for it in the long run.

It is the kind of colourful phrase I would never use.

I think the Government have shared that monetary punch drunkenness in the past few years and I do not say that to deride the Government. The whole country went through that period with the increase in inflation. Probably much of that was due to the massive oil problems we had to face earlier, quite apart from anything else. Juries had to deal with that situation and it was very difficult, but the indications are that it has stabilised considerably in the interim.

The Minister mentioned a figure of £15,000 in relation to the Circuit Court. That was the 1982 figure and I have suggested it should be increased. That would be helpful and beneficial. I appreciate very much that the Minister has put the situation in England very much in perspective. He covered that matter very well and he indicated clearly and honestly the situation in relation to that country. It is very heart-warming to find such a frank and forthright admission.

The 1983 report on safety, health and welfare at work was a very valuable one. I refer it to the House because many of the items in it are relevant to this debate. The report showed that the number of fatal and non-fatal accidents reported to the Department of Labour was 2,800 in 1979 and that increased to 4,670 in 1982. There is a constantly increasing spiral of fatal and non-fatal reported accidents in that area but of course, generally the number of accidents is much more than that.

In the report there is an interesting diagram showing the number of claims for occupational injuries in respect of various parts of the body affected. For instance, injuries to the hand or to fingers amounted to almost 31 per cent of all injuries, injuries to the eye were 5.4 per cent, to the foot or toe 8.9 per cent while injuries on the back and shoulders amounted to 17 per cent. People suggest that perhaps complaints about back pain are concocted by employees. I am sure that may be true in some cases, but for many other people it is real problem. Equally it is quite obvious that no man or woman wants to lose a hand or a finger in an accident at work. The argument that employees are prone to such accidents has been debunked in this study. Accidents should and could be avoided if the measures suggested here were taken by industry. I suggest that the Minister ask his colleague to pursue this actively.

Various people have approached us about this measure. The Federated Union of Employers are very interested. In their annual report they say their campaign was successful to the extent that the Government announced that the jury system would be abolished. They are very anxious to see the jury system abolished but have they analysed the effect its abolition is likely to have? If they did, they would find many of the other measures will have far more serious effects than the jury system. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions were also very concerned about the measure. They pointed out in July 1983 that the Government Commission of Inquiry on Safety, Health and Welfare at Work chaired by Justice Donal Barrington, also recommended that employers' liability insurance be immediately made compulsory on a selective basis. This would have the effect of spreading the cost. They went on to say that Congress were opposed to the further restriction of the rights of citizens to participate in the judicial system. They said Congress were surprised at the Government's decision to introduce this Bill without first holding a major inquiry and that in deciding to proceed in this way, the Government were ignoring the recommendation of the Commission of Inquiry of Safety, Health and Welfare at Work which reported in July 1983.

They went on to say that Congress were also concerned that this decision was taken by the Government without a review of employers' liability insurance. They said that the Executive Council of Congress were requesting the Minister for Justice not to proceed with the Courts Bill, 1986, and the Executive Council also requested that employers' liability insurance be made compulsory and that a major inquiry be undertaken into current and alternative arrangements for compensation in cases of personal injury.

The Congress of Trade Unions representing workers and employees are very concerned about this measure to the extent that they have written to the Minister asking him to withdraw it and to consider some alternative measures. At the same time, they put out a press release in which they said that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions were demanding that employers' liability insurance be made compulsory. They went on to say that a Government committee of inquiry into the insurance industry recommended, as far back as 1976, that employers' liability insurance be made compulsory. They also said that Congress had written to the Minister for Justice requesting him not to proceed with the Courts Bill, 1986, which provides for the abolition of juries in personal injuries cases in the High Court. The press release went on to say that the Executive Council of Congress were totally opposed to this change in particular to further restrict the right of citizens to participate in the judicial system. In seeking the withdrawal of the Courts Bill, 1986, Congress had asked the Minister to hold a major inquiry into current and alternative arrangements for compensation in cases of personal injury and they appealed to the Minister to desist from this approach.

I have examples of individual cases but I will not delay the House by reading them into the record. It is very hard to get copies of these documents but if one keeps digging one will get information. When we talk about legal costs and legal outlay, we are talking about many different things such as paid fee for abstract of Garda report, £7; stamp duty on plenary summons, £14.15; stamp statement of claim, £256; medical report, £16.80; second medical report, £17; Law Society fee for a room, £8; stamping, £24; more medical reports, fee for actuarial report, £104; fees for rooms, meetings and so on, paid availability fee to doctor for court attendance £31; two senior counsel £525 each. Then the State took 23 per cent VAT — it is now 25 per cent — and that has to be included in the costs. Then there were solicitors' fees, £4,400 and the VAT on £4,500 came to £1,035 — there was a substantial VAT element in this too — and the junior counsel got £350. All these costs were involved in a claim for £55,000. These figures give some idea of what is happening.

Various surveys have been carried out in this area. Mr. Brian McMahon produced a very useful document on 16 September 1985 which deals with many of the questions relating to the role and function of juries, the comparison between juries and judges and the type of awards granted. Each point he raised could be discussed and debated here. The Minister referred to some points but Mr. McMahon's document covers this subject very extensively. He pointed out that the problems in the insurance industry were related to management problems. This applied to the PMPA and the ICI. It is very difficult to listen to lectures from some of these people who have been involved in these massive management blunders complaining about the ordinary citizen's claim — he might only get his lunch — when he comes to do jury work. He pointed out that the PMPA reduced their losses from £27 million to £13.5 million in 1983 without any change in the jury system and this figure will be halved in 1985, still without abolishing the jury system.

When these insurance firms ran into difficulties they blamed the jury system for their problems. We all know that ICI's biggest problem arose from the reinsurance they took on through London. If they had not got involved in that extremely high risk area, which other firms were running away from, they would not have had such serious problems. He goes into that kind of thing and points out the reality.

I will not delay the House because probably I have spoken for long enough on it, but when you come to such a fundamental change it is very difficult just to walk into the House and say a few words on it because then people ask why you did not say something about this, why you did not analyse it or tease it out. We have a function and a responsibility in Opposition to tease out these things and see what is really going on, and when you do so what you find is amazing.

He points out that insurance costs in the non-life area have been affected significantly by the increasing crime rate which is especially noticeable in the case of car thefts, burglaries and the like. Again we are back to the fact that if we can deal with the crime situation we can deal with many of the problems that arise in this area.

The debate has taken place in public about much of this question. Michael Houlihan in Business and Finance of June 1985 said:

In my view insurers concentrate their energies too much in complaining about the juries, the effect they have on high awards and also on the overburdening of cases by the necessity to employ three barristers in each case. Changes in these procedures will not in my opinion in the least effect the savings for which the insurers are hoping.

He goes into many of these questions and gives his point of view on them. The Minister may be interested to know that some states in Australia abolished jury awards and expectation there was supposed to be that the permiums would come down subsequently. I notice that the Minister has been careful not to get himself into that position here tonight. Anyway, the evidence afterwards was that there was no reduction in premiums or in the level of awards, not was there any change in the consistency of the awards. This is interesting because one looks around for a similar case and some experience in that respect.

Finally, let me make a brief mention of the Fifth report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Small Businesses, The Insurance Problems of Small Businesses. Small businesses are having considerable difficulty in this area. I congratulate the chairman, Deputy Ivan Yates, the vicechairman, Senator Michael Lynch, and the members of that committee for the work they did in this area and the very excellent report they have produced. They go into the whole question of industry, safety in industry and the measures which could be taken to reduce accidents in industry. They suggest things like incentive schemes for good safety and claims records, practical things that matter to small businesses and the people in them and encourage people to improve their leval of safety and security and the training of their workers. Under the heading “Speculative Claims” on page 57 of the report they state that companies should now show much more greater firmness in resisting the more speculative type of claim. On page 58 they say, “We recommend that the insurance companies must play a greater role in developing positive attitudes to risk management on a widespread basis”. They go on to the area of measures to reduce insurance cost. They state, and I quote from page 62:

. . . We recommend:

(i) the termination of the 1% levy on the turnover of the insurance companies, at a cost to the Exchequer of £6m. per annum;

(ii) the replacement of the present system of the broker's commission as a fixed percentage of the premium by a scale of standard charges subject to price control;

I am sure that the broker's commission will have a bigger effect than the abolition of juries will have in terms of the premium cost. I continue to quote:

(iii) a far more active role by the Department of Industry and Commerce in controlling premium rates of the companies.

On the legal system they say that the General Council of the Bar of Ireland should terminate the "Three Counsel rule" immediately and the insurance companies should refuse to retain more than two lawyers in each case. They see quite clearly that the option is there with the insurance companies if they want to take it. They can refuse to maintain more than two lawyers on each case. They could set the standard. On page 63 of the report the committee state:

We recommended that the Superior Courts Rules Committee fix the final date for an agreed settlement at the fifteenth day before the scheduled hearing.

In the event of failure to meet the deadline the full hearing should proceed.

That is an interesting suggestion that might help to get over some of the problems that the Minister sees facing him. I continue to quote:

Pre-Trial Procedures

Following the abolition of the jury system in personal injury cases we recommend that the Superior Courts Rules Committee avail of the opportunities to expedite procedures and achieve further cost saving through pre-trial directions . . .

They give the kinds of directions that they see applying. They go on to say that there is a need for additional High Court judges, an increase in the number from 15 to 17, an increase of two. They feel that the District and Circuit Court limits should be raised, from £15,000 to £30,000 in the case of the Circuit Court. They were thinking along lines similar to what I am suggesting. The committee have made practical, usable and workable suggestions and I congratulate them on the very excellent report they have presented which, if adopted and acted upon, would contribute to reductions in costs.

I have said all I want to say about this now. We come to the conclusion that in the measure which the Minister proposes the case has not been made for the abolition of juries. It has not been established and will not result in the savings which have been mentioned. We have considered this matter long and hard. I have put some points, but this is a debate to which one could contribute a great deal more if time allowed. I would like to let the next speaker in before the debate is adjourned tonight so that he will have the opportunity to start the debate the next day, since he has been here waiting this evening.

I thank Deputy Woods for allowing me in. I do not feel in any way aggrieved after listening to him for the last hour and a half.

It was good to put the Deputy right anyway.

He contributed in his usual very detailed, informative way. Obviously he put a great deal of research into this topic. This measure was brought fairly suddenly into the Dáil and it is absolutely essential that it be debated fully. Let me say in the two minutes I have that this is one of the times when I do not feel happy about being a member of a party having to vote under the party Whip because I am very much opposed to the removal of civil juries, and in my contribution to this on the next day I will show why. The argument put forward for it has not been strong; it has been a very weak argument. The Minister in his speech gave a historical appraisal as a background to his general review of the present operation of the jury system and said that, in the context of a new debate on the issue in relation to insurance matters, the Government considered in principle a change in the system. I think it has been in response to a very well orchestrated campaign by the insurance companies to have civil juries removed, and they have succeeded in a very short time.

Debate adjourned.
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