Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Jun 1986

Vol. 367 No. 6

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 38: Tourism. (Revised Estimate)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £25,664,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for salaries and expenses in connection with Tourism and for payment of a grant and certain grants in aid.

I propose to deal first with the Tourism Vote and then with the Fisheries and Forestry Votes. I will move the Fisheries and Forestry Votes at the conclusion of the debate.

The provision made in the Estimate for Tourism is an indicator of the importance accorded to the tourism industry in the Government's economic policy. The importance of the industry and its contribution to the economy were outlined in the Government's White Paper on Tourism Policy. I will comment further on the White Paper proposals later on.

In 1985, out of state revenue from tourism, including carrier receipts, amounted to £691 million, an increase of almost 17 per cent over 1984. This very satisfactory performance can be attributed to the success achieved in our major markets. For the first time the North American market became our biggest single source of tourist earnings. Revenue from North America increased to £190 million, or by 36 per cent over 1984. The number of North American visitors totalled 422,000, representing an increase of 23 per cent on the 1984 figure. Earnings from the European market increased by 21 per cent to £80 million and the number of visitors was up by 10 per cent to 334,000. While visitor numbers from Britain at 1,119,000 remained almost static, revenue grew by 12 per cent to £172 million. There was a welcome expansion in the domestic market where the number of holidaymakers increased by 1 per cent to 3,820,000 and revenue by 7 per cent to £269 million. The number of visitors from Northern Ireland, however, declined by 19 per cent to 479,000 and revenue by 12 per cent to £36 million. Despite this decline, 1985 was on balance a successful year for Irish tourism.

Because of recent developments in Europe we will be fortunate if we can achieve any real growth in tourist revenue during 1986. Our main difficulty arises from the uncertainty of the US market. At the beginning of the year Bord Fáilte had projected a growth of between 2 per cent and 4 per cent in that market. These projections will have to be revised in the light of American reactions to recent events in Europe and Libya. In 1885 more than 50 per cent of the US visitors came direct to Ireland, the remainder visiting Ireland as part of their European holiday. The cancellation of European package tours by many US tour operators will undoubtedly lead to a reduction in the number of Americans visiting Ireland.

Bord Fáilte are still hopeful, however, that the 1986 outturn for the US market will at least be as good as 1984. The board and the other State agencies in North America are doing everything possible to reassure prospective visitors that Ireland is a safe and welcoming destination for all visitors. The board and the tourist industry mounted a special major sales and public relations drive during May in North America for this purpose in which I also participated. These promotion efforts will be reinforced by the marketing programmes of the two American airlines — Delta and Pan Am — who have recently introduced new air services into Ireland. These initiatives should help to minimise the adverse impact of the present difficulties inhibiting American travel to Ireland.

Prospects in other overseas markets are very encouraging. Bord Fáilte are satisfied that revenue and visitor numbers from the British and continental markets will continue to grow during 1986. The Anglo-Irish Agreement has led to a more favourable disposition towards Ireland in the British media and this is reflected in the level of inquiries at the board's UK offices and bookings through the different transport carriers. The prospects for tourism from the Continent are even better. The response to Bord Fáilte's and the industry's marketing drive in continental countries has been very good and business should increase by about 6 per cent. It is difficult to make accurate predictions about tourism trends in the home and Northern Ireland markets but Bord Fáilte are hopeful of expansion in both markets.

I would like now to outline how the Exchequer's allocation to tourism will be spent. I should point out that, in addition to the total of £25.664 million being moved in this Vote, an additional £2.461 million is provided in the Estimates of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to cover expenditure on tourism in the period 1 January 1986 to 18 February 1986 prior to the transfer of the functions relating to tourism to the Department of Fisheries and Forestry. A total of £28.125 million is, therefore, being provided for tourism in 1986 compared with £27.154 million spent in 1985.

Of the total provision for tourism, £27.562 million is being allocated to Bord Fáilte. More than £12 million of this sum will be spent by the board on promotion and marketing. The board aim to spend about £4.5 million on promoting and marketing in the North American market, almost £2.3 million on the European market and almost £2.3 million in Britain. In addition, £2.3 million will be spent on promotions in Ireland and marketing activities such as conference and product promotions, festivals and assistance to Irish operators marketing abroad. The pay requirement of Bord Fáilte this year has been estimated at £9.1 million, of which £2.08 million relates to the regional tourism organisations.

A grant-in-aid of almost £4 million is being made available for Bord Fáilte's capital development programmes. Approximately half of this will be spent in grants under the board's hotel and guesthouse reconstruction and development scheme. The scheme is designed to help small to medium-sized hotels achieve the same standards as their counterparts abroad and is confined to hotels committed to overseas marketing programmes.

The balance of the grant-in-aid will be used to grant aid the development of caravan and camping sites, assist improvements to approved farmhouses and town and country homes and encourage the provision of tourism amenities. The board's amenity development programme, for which £1.102 million has been provided, encourages the provision of amenities and facilities for angling, inland cruising, waterways development, tourist recreation and sailing and equestrian centres.

The sum of £436,000 being provided for the administration of the tourism division of my Department includes £150,000 for a consultancy service on tourist related expenditure. It will be recalled that the Government in the White Paper on Tourism Policy decided to seek an outside view of the State's spending on tourism. I expect this assignment to commence within the next month or two and to be completed by early 1987.

In their White Paper on Tourism, which is essentially a blueprint for the development of Irish tourism, the Government have highlighted the crucial role of tourism in the economy and its potential contribution to future economic growth. The White Paper clearly defines objectives and policies for the industry and for the first time gives tourism a key role in the Government's policy making process.

The White Paper covers a very wide range of issues that have an impact on tourism. I am particularly pleased about the commitment in it to give priority to tourism in the Government's efforts to tackle unemployment. I have no doubt that development within the industry and the strategies and policies now being pursued can and will create many new jobs.

The key elements necessary to achieve growth and the problems that need to be addressed by Bord Fáilte and the industry as a whole are clearly set out in the White Paper. One of the priorities identified is the development of facilities and all-weather amenities to attract younger visitors from overseas. Bord Fáilte are urgently developing strategies aimed at expanding this important segment of the market.

The White Paper stressed the importance of effective promotion and marketing by all concerned in tourism and the need for the industry to be competitively priced vis-á-vis other tourist destinations. Bord Fáilte, within the limits of their budgetary allocation, will promote and create an awareness of Ireland in overseas markets but their activity must be complemented through active marketing programmes by all those involved in tourism. In future, Bord Fáilte will arrange their promotional activities so as to facilitate joint financing with commercial operators.

An interesting example of the initiatives of the Government's new policy was the recent launching of the hotel brand marketing scheme by Bord Fáilte with the full endorsement of the Irish Hotels Federation. The objective of this scheme is to bring unaligned hotels with marketing potential into the mainstream of export tourism business. The scheme has organised 46 small to medium-sized Irish hotels into three distinct and identifiable marketing groupings. The groups are being assisted initially by Bord Fáilte but it is expected that eventually the groups will become completely independent and be capable of marketing their hotels without Bord Fáilte back-up facilities.

The White Paper proposed certain measures to encourage investment in tourism projects. The Government have accordingly raised by £5 million the amount available through the Industrial Credit Corporation for the working capital for tourism schemes. In addition, the National Development Corporation Act empowers the corporation to invest, inter alia, in tourism projects. A tourism development team has been set up in Bord Fáilte to identify tourism opportunities and to match developers and investors to these opportunities.

The White Paper stressed the need for a greater private sector input into the running of the regional tourism organisations. The operations of the RTOs are being restructured and it is intended that the Exchequer's contribution to their overheads will have been reduced to 55 per cent by 1989. The balance of the RTO operating budgets will have to be met through revenue earning activities and contributions from business interests benefiting from local tourist expenditure.

The need for new ideas in tourism and for a more innovative approach by the industry to marketing their products was emphasised in the Government's White Paper. However, while the State can play a role in developing tourism concepts, it is primarily a matter for the industry itself to take the lead in bringing forward new ventures in commercial tourism.

In the White Paper the Government acknowledged that improvements in access transport services were necessary if tourism was to prosper. Competitive air fares and adequate capacities on air and sea routes are essential to an industry dependent on access transport for its development and growth.

I will be monitoring very closely in consultation with the Minister for Communications, who has primary responsibility for access policies, the position of the different ferry services into this country and in particular the future fares policy of operators on cross-channel routes under their new co-operation agreement.

The primary importance of the environment to tourism was also highlighted in the White Paper. Bord Fáilte will continue their endeavours to safeguard the environment by raising the awareness of the community to the problems which threaten that environment. The success of the Tidy Towns Competition in which 760 centres competed last year is an example of what can be achieved by people when motivated by the need to not only protect but enhance the environment. While State agencies can and must give the lead in protecting and enhancing our environment, success in this area, which is so vital to our whole tourism effort, depends in the last resort on the co-operation and goodwill of all citizens.

In my view, the long term prospects for Irish tourism are exceptionally good. With the Government's commitment to tourism development, I see no reason why Ireland cannot increase its share of international tourist traffic.

I will now deal with the Fisheries Vote.

The total gross Vote for Fisheries is £18,712,000. With estimated receipts of £1,206,000 the net Vote is for £17,506,000. Of the gross expenditure, £7,755,000 is to meet the pay provisions for my Department, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Central and Regional Fisheries Boards.

The amount provided this year represents an increase of 8 per cent over last year's outturn and I regard it as a reasonable contribution to the fishing industry in the difficult budgetary situation in which we find ourselves.

There have been problems in the fishing industry in recent years largely due to high operating costs and low returns on catches. Thankfully this situation has improved as a result of the reduction in fuel prices and an improvement in fish prices.

The aid package which was introduced in 1985 to assist fishermen in financial difficulty has been widely accepted and welcomed by fishermen. It has contributed in particular to enabling boat owners to meet their loan commitments to BIM. Fishermen who qualified for the aid package enjoy the benefits of increased interest subsidy, extension of the period of the loan and restructuring of the system of loan repayments. The effect of these measures was to reduce annual loan commitments in individual cases by amounts ranging up to 60 per cent. The full excise duty on fuel oil used in fishing is also refundable and this together with the fall in fuel prices has contributed greatly to reducing operating costs.

During 1985 the total value of sea fish landings and mariculture production was in excess of £66 million. The value of exports of fish and fish products during the year was in the region of £100 million. The principal export outlets continued to be France, the UK, West Germany, The Netherlands, Nigeria, Egypt, Spain, USA and Japan.

Investment in shore-based processing facilities continued in 1985. Nine fish processing projects, involving a total capital commitment of £10 million, which included State grants amounting to £1.9 million, were approved for EC (FEOGA) grant aid of £4.1 million. There is still room for further expansion of the processing sector and no doubt the position will improve with the development of fish farming. However, developments in processing must take cognisance of realistic possibilities in the market place and the situation in respect of fish supplies, both wild and farmed.

Work on the finalisation of the White Paper on Fisheries Policy is well advanced and as I already indicated to this House, I hope to have it published during the present session.

The Common Fisheries Policy continues to work well and provides the necessary stability for the on-going development of the fishing industry. The various technical and, more particularly, the conservation regulations, which are the main guarantee of the availability of stocks in the future, are applicable in all member states.

With the accession of Spain and Portugal as full members of the European Community, the primary concern for Ireland in the accession negotiations was fisheries. However, the outcome of these negotiations was very satisfactory from an Irish point of view, particularly the continuation of the Irish box for ten years after accession. The terms enshrined in the Treaty of Accession will thus ensure that our national fisheries interests will be protected and that there will be continued scope for further development.

Future prospects for the Irish fishing industry are, I believe, good. The package agreed, on total allowable catches and quotas for Ireland, at the Fisheries Councils during December last is generally satisfactory from our point of view. We secured increases in the quotas for the majority of species of interest to Irish fishermen, particularly herring. These increases for species other than nephrops are in financial terms worth £1.5 million approximately. We also managed to secure a significant increase in our quota for nephrops; this increase, based on average values, is in financial terms worth £3.6 million approximately.

Disappointment has been expressed at the level of our mackerel quota for the present year. I appreciate that our fleet could take quantities in excess of our quota allocation. However, one has to take account of the stock situation. The state of the mackerel stocks is of paramount importance to the Irish fishing industry since the species comprises a major part of our wetfish catch and also constitutes a sizeable proportion of Ireland's fish exports. In order to ensure that adequate breeding stocks are maintained for future years, fishing levels must take account of scientific data relating to the overall prevailing stock situation.

An international mackerel egg survey is taking place in 1986 to give a broader picture of the current state of the stock and it is gratifying to see that the Irish fishing industry, through both the fishermen and processors, have decided to fully sponsor an egg survey off the Irish west coast in conjunction with this. This practical contribution from the industry towards a scientific survey is very welcome and will, I hope, enable us to obtain a more comprehensive picture of the stock levels.

Interest has also been expressed by a number of our fishermen in conducting exploratory fishing to determine the extent of the possibilities that exist in relation to certain species. Should the outcome of these exploratory efforts prove successful, then significant new possibilities will be available to our fishermen because they will be fishing for species for which there are at present no quotas. This is the type of innovative thinking and pioneering spirit needed in the industry. I should like to mention, in passing, that facilities are now available from BIM and the EC to assist the purchase of large white fish vessels up to 33 metres in length suitable for catching the types of fish traditionally caught by Spanish vessels in our offshore waters. I hope that in the next few years we will establish a fleet of this type of vessel, as recommended in the report of the Sectoral Consultative Committee on Fisheries.

The general interest in fish farming continues to grow, particularly in salmon farming. Generous grants are available for both pilot and commercial scale projects to enable further development to take place. The implementation of the designation process provided for under the 1980 Fisheries Act has begun and three areas in Counties Mayo and Galway have been designated to date. Good progress has been made in the designation of other areas. A special unit has been set up in the Fisheries Division of the Department to expedite this work.

I recently initiated the designation procedures for Mulroy Bay, part of Gweebarra Bay, County Donegal and Kilkieran, Bartraboy, Mannin and Clifden Bay and Ballynakill harbour, County Galway. I am in the process of finalising a list of areas where designation procedures will commence in 1986. I would like to stress that until such time as a designation order has been made for a particular area, it is not possible to proceed with individual licensing in the area.

Production of farmed salmon this year is projected at 1,200 tonnes, which is double the 1985 production and it has been estimated that by 1992 production will have reached at least 10,000 tonnes, with a value of £44 million.

A grant-in-aid of £4,868,000 is being made to BIM to cover administration expenses and current developments, including the cost of the interest subsidy on boat loans. There is also an allocation of £1.25 million to the board to meet the liabilities arising from repayment of Exchequer advances in cases where unpaid boat loans were written off.

A sum of £4.7 million has been allocated to the board for capital purposes. The main thrust of the investment will be directed towards the modernisation and re-equipment of existing vessels and the development of the aquaculture sector. The BIM investment will be supplemented by grants under the EC Fisheries Structural Policy.

The promotion and marketing of our fish and fish products at home and abroad by BIM continues to be a priority of development policy. An increased financial allocation was made to BIM in 1985 and again this year under the Government's programme Building on Reality to enable the board to intensify their market research and promotion activities especially in the area of added-value products. There has been some public concern that radioactive discharges from the Sellafield Reprocessing Plant in Britain could contaminate fish caught in the Irish Sea. I would like to stress that, on the information available to me from the Nuclear Energy Board who are responsible for monitoring national levels of radiation, there is no basis for concern on health grounds about the consumption of fish caught in the Irish Sea. I am satisfied that the quality of all Irish fish landings conforms to the highest standards and may be safely consumed by the public.

Substantial exports of mackerel to the Egyptian market have continued under contracts negotiated with the Egyptian authorities during 1985. In the case of the Nigerian market for our frozen mackerel, import licences were made available in the early months of 1985 and considerable volumes were exported. Since April 1985, however, no licences have been made available by the Nigerian authorities because of the shortage of foreign exchange in that country.

The herring market is extremely depressed in the EC because of oversupply resulting from the recovery of North Sea stocks and relatively free import regimes in the EC. Considerable efforts have been made by BIM to develop new outlets for Irish herring products, particularly in eastern European markets.

For 1986, I have approved a comprehensive programme for harbour and improvement works which includes the completion of works in hand, as well as major new development works at Greencastle, County Donegal and the provision of a boat-lift at Killybegs, County Donegal. Provision has been made also for works of a lesser degree at various other harbours and landing places. Following discussions with local interests involved a major development scheme for Rossaveal Harbour, County Galway, has been agreed and an economic appraisal of the project is being currently undertaken.

The total amount being allocated for Inland Fisheries is £5,579,000. Of this a sum of £4,812,000 is being allocated to the Central and Regional Fisheries Boards to enable them to carry out their functions in the conservation, protection and development of our inland fisheries.

As we all know, salmon is a very important element of our inland fisheries, both from the commercial and sporting points of view. There are indications that the stock of salmon as a whole is being over-fished. Catches are fluctuating and in general have been in decline in recent years. I am glad to be able to say, however, that there was a substantial increase in the reported catch of salmon in 1985 as compared with 1984, namely 1,539 tonnes as compared with 839 tonnes. While it is far too early to draw any firm conclusions from that, I sincerely hope that we are seeing the beginning of the reversal of the downward trend in salmon catches.

I am sorry to say that illegal fishing for salmon, including the use of illegal nets, continues to be a major problem and the increasing amount of violence being offered by some fishermen towards the protection staff of the fisheries boards and the Naval Service and gardaí is a matter of grave concern. I condemn this violence in the strongest possible terms. The fisheries laws are crucial to the survival of the salmon as a species and must be observed by all. Here I would like to compliment the protection staff and the gardaí and Naval Service for their work in enforcing conservation laws under very difficult circumstances.

I have long been aware of the tourism potential of salmon, trout and coarse fish angling and, as Minister with responsibility for tourism, I will be paying special attention to encouraging inland fisheries as a tourist attraction.

The present regime for inland fisheries protection and management involving the Central Fisheries Board and seven regional fisheries boards established under the 1980 Fisheries Acts is operating reasonably satisfactorily. Nevertheless I feel it is desirable to review the arrangements in the light of our experience over the past few years and I am arranging to have such a review undertaken by my Department.

A sum of £135,000 is included in the Estimate as my Department's contribution to the Foyle Fisheries Commission, the statutory body responsible for the conservation, protection and improvement of the fisheries of the Foyle area.

The commission's income is derived mainly from the sale of its fishing licences, the price of which has again increased this year. It has, however, operated at a loss in recent years. This loss has been funded on a 50:50 basis by my Department and the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland. The commission's deficit in recent years has been due to rising costs and increases in expenditure on wages and salaries.

The report of the Committee on Public Expenditure on State support and services to the fishing industry has recently been submitted to the House and will be considered by my Department. A number of the recommendations of the committee have already been made by the sectoral development committee and were taken into account by my Department in the preparation of the draft of the White Paper on Fisheries to which I referred earlier. However, I do not wish to comment further on the report in this debate since there will be a later opportunity of doing so.

Turning now to the Forestry Vote for 1986, I would point out that the gross provision for the forestry and wildlife activities of my Department during the current financial year is £54.836 million, which represents an increase of 6 per cent on the expenditure for 1985. That gross demand on the Exchequer will, however, be reduced by receipts estimated at approximately £18 million from sales of timber and other sources of revenue.

Over the past year or so forestry has been very much in the news and, indeed, the subject of considerable public debate. As I see it, the main conclusion that emerges from that healthy dialogue is that, because of the difficulties in the markets for some of our more traditional agricultural products, there is a growing recognition and acceptance by landowners of forestry as an alternative land use as well as a strong interest by investors in forestry as a sound long-term investment. This is, I believe, a healthy and desirable change in attitudes to land use, particularly as regards land that is marginal for agriculture.

The second noticeable change, and again a desirable one, is that it is now clear that there is a ready acceptance of the keen demand for Irish timber to meet the needs of the domestic construction industry, something that regrettably one does not have to go back too many years to note its absence. Thus home demand for the products of our forests is strong. Moreover, unlike some of our major agricultural lines of production, the long-term export market outlook for wood is good, particularly in neighbouring export markets.

As I have said, these are healthy and desirable changes of attitude on which to build for the future. It is obvious, therefore, that we have reached a point in our forestry development when it is necessary to reassess and reappraise its future role with a view to developing and exploiting the asset to the best national advantage, particularly in view of its importance in industrial development, job maintenance and import substitution.

That was why the Government decided in its economic plan Building on Reality to establish an independent review group to examine the structure, organisation and operation of the Forest and Wildlife Service of my Department. As the House knows, the review group's report was published towards the end of last year and laid on the table of the House. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the review group for their labours and especially for completing their examination in a relatively short period and furnishing a most valuable report.

The group identified the various activities and functions of the Forest and Wildlife Service in areas of forest establishment, research, sale of timber, provision of amenities such as forest parks and forest walks, wildlife conservation and game development. It stressed the desirability of separating the commercial from non-commercial activities and suggested the creation of a new organisational framework in which both of these diverse interests could develop and prosper. To this end the group has recommended the establishment of a commission or a national forest enterprise to take over the commercial forestry activities of the FWS which would operate under a director general and a board of management within the Civil Service and report directly to the Minister. The group's recommendations are thorough and far-reaching and merit close examination to ensure that any changes in the present structure will be in the best interests of the State and the industry. My Department are currently examining the group's recommendations and I have also asked the various organisations who made submissions to the group for their views on the group's recommendations. Final decisions on the recommendations in the report will be taken by the Government when this examination has been completed.

Before dealing with specific points on the Estimates, I feel obliged to make a few comments on the criticisms frequently levelled against me and my Department about sales of timber from State forests. As Deputies know, such sales are made on a competitive basis, either by way of the sealed tender system, by auction or under the large sawlog quota scheme operated by the Forest and Wildlife Service. The real problem that exists, of course, is that the national demand for timber exceeds the available supply and clearly in this situation the FWS cannot meet or satisfy the demands of all sawmills. The tender system is therefore the fairest system available to my Department for allocating the existing supplies of timber. Obviously, if some mills were given all the timber they demand, other mills would get little or none. This would equally involve the closure of the smaller mills and unemployment for their staffs.

My Department have endeavoured to alleviate the situation by what I consider to be a very fair approach to a difficult problem. After long consultations with the timber trade, a revised sawlog quota scheme has been introduced whereby efficient and progressive mills can purchase up to 40 per cent of their annual timber requirements outside the tender system at market prices while competing by tender for the balance of their supplies. I see no other way, in a situation where the available supply is not sufficient to meet the demand, of dealing fairly with firms nor indeed, I might mention, has any better or more equitable system been suggested by the trade.

There have been allegations that purchasers of sawlog timber from outside the State are enjoying unfair trading advantages. Firstly, I would like to make it clear that, contrary to what is frequently stated in public, there is no evidence that such purchases, which account for no more than 10 per cent of the available supplies, are increasing. In fact, they have been quite stable at the present level for some time past. However, I have set up an ad hoc committee under an independent chairman with representatives from the sawmill industry, the ITCTU, the Forest and Wildlife Service and the Department of Industry and Commerce, to examine and report as soon as possible on the allegations that there are factors distorting trade and competition between sawmillers north and south of the Border.

I do not wish to pre-empt the findings of that committee and will say nothing further on the matter at this stage other than to say that under our trade obligations as members of the EC, it is not open to me or to the Government to stop exports of timber to other member states solely on economic or discriminatory grounds. This is, in effect, what I am asked to do from time to time by persons complaining about this trade.

I would now like to deal in greater detail with the provisions of some of the subheads of the Forestry Vote. There is a substantial increase in the sum allocated for the acquisition of land in subhead C1, which has been increased from £4.25 million last year to £5.05 million this year. As there was a balance in the fund at the end of 1985 of £768,000 and a further £100,000 is likely to be realised from sales of land, the total sum available for the acquisition of land during 1986 will amount to £5.92 million. About half a million pounds will be used for the purchase of land for wildlife conservation purposes. It is estimated that a total of 6,000 hectares of plantable land for the State afforestation programme will be acquired during 1986. With changing land prices, the quality of land being offered to my Department for afforestation has improved considerably over the past few years and indeed the situation now is that my Department are unable to take up all the offers made to them because of the limited funds which it is possible to provide for such purchases.

The largest provision in the Forestry Vote is the provision of £29.362 million in subhead C2 for forest development and management. This includes a sum of £20.834 million for labour. Indeed, Deputies may be interested to know that wages and salaries account for almost 62 per cent of the gross expenditure on the Forestry Vote.

The increase over the 1985 provision is due, apart from increases in wages and salaries, to higher prices for machinery, manures, weedkillers and expenditure on the repair, maintenance and running costs of the forest machinery fleet.

Subhead C2 for forest development and management includes provisions of £0.986 million for the purchase of new machinery, and £1.403 million for maintenance and repairs of the existing machinery fleet and purchase of fuels and oils. Most forest operations are now mechanised and my Department operate a large fleet of machines for ground preparation, roadmaking, transport of supplies within and between forests, nurseries and timber harvesting. In recent years, there has been an increasing emphasis in Europe on the development of specialised machines for the extraction and harvesting of timber in forests and my Department continually appraise and assess their suitability or adaptability for Irish conditions.

In addition, the FWS hire a wide range of machinery to supplement their own fleet. The hiring of machines not only reduces expenditure on purchases of machinery but provides employment opportunities for local machinery contractors. I am currently examining the feasibility of introducing a scheme whereby the construction of some forest roads could be put out to tender to specialist road construction firms.

The breakdown of expenditure shown in Part III of the Estimate sets out the details of expenditure covered by subhead C2. There are activities, however, covered by the subhead which Deputies may find of particular interest. It provides £4.690 million for the establishment of forestry plantations on newly acquired land and land becoming available after clearfelling. This provision will finance the planting by the FWS of up to 7,000 hectares in 1986 thus increasing the stocked State forest estate to 333,000 hectares by the end of this year.

Part of the sum of £2.468 million provided in subhead C2 for new roads and buildings will be used for the construction during 1986 of 144 kilometres of forest roads and the upgrading of a further 32 kilometres of existing forest roads. Subhead C2 also provides £1.143 million for the development of recreational amenities for the public in State forests. This aspect of the Forest and Wildlife Service's work is very much appreciated by the general public who are availing to an ever increasing extent of the facilities provided.

Since the adoption of an "Open Forest" policy 20 years ago, 400 forest areas have been opened to the public by my Department. The amenities provided at these forests include car parks, picnic areas, nature trails, viewing points and signposted walks. A further extension of this "Open Forest" policy was the completion and opening of 20 holiday chalets at Killykeen Forest Park this year. These wooden chalets are sited on the shores of Lough Oughter, a lake renowned for coarse fishing, and were constructed exclusively with Irish grown timber.

The project was designed to maximise visitor comfort in harmony with the woodland and lakeside setting. A sum of £1.73 million was made available towards the cost of the project under the Special Border Areas Programme. This programme was financed out of a fund created in 1980 by the EC and the Irish Government to improve the economic and social situation of Border areas mainly through the development of tourism activities. We are breaking new ground in our Forest Amenity Programme with this development and I hope the project with Irish families and visiting tourists alike.

The first of the long distance walking routes established by my Department some years ago was the Wicklow Way. Following its success and the subsequent establishment of the South Leinster Way, my Department and the National Sports Council are currently engaged in the establishment of the following further walking routes: the Munster Way, the Galway-Mayo Way, the South Leinster Way, the Kerry Way and the Carlingford Trail. When all the planned long distance walking routes are linked they will, in conjunction with a similar walk in Northern Ireland, form the "All Ireland Way".

Ireland is unique in that 85 per cent of the afforested area is owned by the State. It is Government policy, therefore, to encourage expansion of private forestry in harmony with the State afforestation programme by way of two schemes of grants and a technical advisory service. A provision of £0.855 million has been made in subhead D of the Vote to cover the cost of private forestry grants under the Department's countrywide scheme and the forestry element of the western package which applies to the less-favoured areas of the west.

The Minister has 30 seconds left.

Thirty seconds will not allow me to complete my script.

Acting Chairman

I must abide by Standing Orders, most regretfully.

It is rather regretful that you have to do that but I am sure the Deputies will have the remainder of the brief which they can read.

Acting Chairman

I will have to ask the Minister to conclude.

Unfortunately, I will conclude by saying I would have liked to have dealt with the FINSA and Medite situations but I am sure Deputies will have an opportunity to read about them. Capital investment in both these firms require that we keep this commitment so that the timber supplies to them will maintain output and jobs in both those firms. They account for over 500 jobs. I am sure Deputies will agree that any conflict which may have arisen in the discussions over the supply of timber to these firms must surely be considered in the light of the employment which is created and also the fact that the type of timber which has been used is timber which was practically lost to forestry some years ago. We gain no money from it. It is an important aspect of the Forestry Estimate. I am sorry I did not get more time to deal with it. I would like to thank you, Acting Chairman, for allowing me to mention that. I recommend the Estimate to the House.

Déanfaidh mise tagairt anois do chúrsaí turasóireachta agus leanfaidh mo chara, an Teachta Brendan Daly, ar aghaidh níos déanaí le cúrsaí foraoiseachta agus iascaireachta.

In a year when tourism is threatened by factors outside our control it is bordering on economic lunacy not to address matters over which we have control. The Dublin Corporation strike on refuse services is a case in point. The policy of brinkmanship in industrial relations now being adopted by the Minister and the Government is inappropriate and a cynical response to the needs of the population of Dublin and the economic needs of the country.

The Minister's reluctance to use his good offices to get a settlement in the dispute is regrettable and foolish. What good is a Minister for Labour if he does not have it as his first priority to use all of his powers and influence to minimise disruption in industrial relations. The Minister is being urged by public representatives from every side, together with all fair minded people, to take immediate steps to involve the Labour Court so that this damaging dispute can be brought to an early settlement. This unfortunate dispute affects many aspects of the economic life of this city where it has a direct bearing on tourist receipts and the development of the tourist industry.

Unsightly and filthy streets with rotting rubbish heaps in the middle of the tourist season destroys not just our tourism image this year but leave a bad smell for tourist promoters' plans for the future. A solution must be found eventually to this and every dispute. The sooner we set about finding that solution, the better for everybody. State agencies are available to help tackle this problem. If the Minister is unwilling——

On a point of order, surely it is for the Minister for the Public Service and the Minister for Labour to discuss the aspects of the problems in Dublin Corporation. It has nothing to do with the Estimates for Tourism, Fisheries or Forestry. This is a cynical, opportunist approach to it.

Acting Chairman

I accept the point of order by the Minister, but could I ask the Fianna Fáil spokesman on Tourism to confide his remarks to that and not to wander into realms more proper to another Minister?

If the Minister personally is unwilling to function in this matter then the Government should direct his office before permanent and lasting damage is done to the tourist reputation at home and abroad. An early settlement of the dispute is now all the more urgent because of the imminent danger of a spread of the dispute to other parts of the country. This, together with the increased tension on the picket lines, makes the solution of this strike an urgent national priority.

In 1985 the Government increased their allocation to Bord Fáilte by 13 per cent over the 1984 levels. This year the Government are increasing their Bord Fáilte allocation by 4 per cent. Surely these two vital statistics in so far as the tourist industry is concerned constitute a clear indication of the lack of Government commitment to the development of the tourist industry and are totally at variance with their own stated policy, as announced in the White Paper on Tourism. The Government national plan identified tourism as an industry with the potential to make a significant contribution to economic growth over the next few years. It pointed to cost-competitiveness as a key factor affecting the performance of our overseas tourism. Last year the Minister pointed out that growth in the tourist business would be achieved only by a greater contribution from the different sectors of the business community involved in tourism. This will happen only if profitability and competitiveness improve in the tourist sector. The drop in inflation and reduction in VAT levels are to be welcomed, but of themselves they will not eliminate the perception of Ireland as an expensive destination. Last year in the course of this debate the Minister described the White Paper on Tourism, then in the process of preparation, as constituting a new departure. It was no such thing. It was an anodyne, colourless document, short on specifics, bereft of vision and concrete proposals, a deep disappointment after two years in preparation.

I said last year that our aim should be to recover our loss, in relative terms, as to what our market share was ten years ago. The White Paper refused to face the fact that a strong commitment by Government is necessary to spearhead that recovery and increase our share of a growing world tourist market. Competitiveness in cost and quality still eludes us. We still fail to implement in an effective way the regulations designed to conserve our environment. I was particularly disappointed to note the absence in the White Paper of any worthwhile proposals to improve integration of the activities of the various agencies directly and indirectly concerned with tourism development. Given the then Minister's commitment to eliminating duplication during the debate last year it was disappointing that the White Paper failed to seriously address itself to this problem.

I said last year that if the plan achieved the elimination of duplication it would have my full support. I am disappointed that I cannot give any such endorsement this year. The plan failed significantly to provide a solid legislative framework to enable a co-ordinated approach to the development of tourism and to provide a fiscal and physical environment conducive to tourism investment and growth. This lack of faith on the part of the Government, this dithering approach to tourism, is entirely inappropriate at a time when tourism is expected to grow worldwide by approximately 5 per cent per annum. The plan afforded the opportunity to create an investment structure for the industry over a number of years. Investment is needed if we are to capitalise on the fact that tourism is a growth industry, second only to banking in its contribution to the value of international trade. Yet the White Paper contains no reference to the desirability of making available to the tourist industry the same tax incentive scheme for personal investment in new business as is currently available to the manufacturing sector.

It would have been imaginative to have extended the venture capital scheme to the industry, especially given its high dependence on bank borrowings. It is pointless paying lip service to tourism development if the Government are unprepared to take the direct action necessary to create the conditions favourable to a vibrant tourism industry. These include a more favourable investment climate, a less punitive taxation regime and a greater emphasis on marketing our tourism product, all of which boils down to more promotional activity on the part of Bord Fáilte. There is a need for resolute action in these areas if we are to reverse the trend whereby our share of world tourism has been declining in recent years. Bord Fáilte estimate that this year the coach holiday business from North America could be down by as much as 40 per cent over last year's figures, that overall the decline in the numbers of US visitors to Ireland is expected to be somewhere between 15 per cent and 25 per cent this year. Certainly, Bord Fáilte must be congratulated on the speed and skill with which their most recent promotional task force was launched in the United States. Bord Fáilte and the tourist industry were quite right to seek to exploit the fact that Ireland is perceived in the United States as one of the safest destinations in Europe this year. I should like to thank the Minister for having contributed to that promotional scheme himself.

I would fully support the Minister in seeking Cabinet approval for increased funding for Bord Fáilte following their increased promotional expenditure on the United States market. However, even if the present crisis in the United States tourist market had not blown up, the trends discernible for some time in United States tourism to this country have been unhealthy. For example, since 1977 Ireland's share of United States tourism expenditure in Europe has been in decline. In 1977 our percentage share of United States tourism spending in Europe was 4.7 per cent, and by 1979 that figure had dropped to 4 per cent. By 1981 our percentage share had dropped further to 2.7 per cent. In both the years 1983 and 1984 our share of US tourism spending in Europe had declined further to 2.1 per cent.

The Irish share of the British tourist market also declined in those years from 6 per cent in 1977 to 3 per cent in 1980 and to 2 per cent in 1984 and 1985. There has been a downward trend evident in both those markets in recent years. Since 1977 our annual share of the lucrative German tourist market has remained stagnant at 0.3 per cent, indicating our failure to further penetrate that European market.

It is alarming to note that it is against a background of increased spending on international tourism that we must place Ireland's declining share of that market. International tourism spending increased by approximately 4.5 per cent each year between 1974 and 1985. Between 1986 and 1996 the projected increase is in the region of 7 per cent per annum. As well as taking action to recover and to increase the share of our traditional markets we must look at new, lucrative markets in Europe, especially the Nordic countries, and also to Japan and Australia. Targeting new high income groups will require new promotional finance, not less. The fact that there has been little change in the marketing composition of tourist numbers, that there has been a decline in the per capita spending of tourists to Ireland over the past decade, calls for a new marketing response.

Our punitively high taxation regime and operating costs have led to this decline in our share of the world tourism market. Job losses have been involved also and a sharp decline in competitiveness and profitability, which in turn have led to falling standards and a reluctance to invest on the part of the industry itself.

The annual report of the Irish Hotels Federation has highlighted the difficult trading conditions under which many hotels now operate. In 1983 and 1984, 42 per cent only of all hotels in this country made a profit. In 1984 the average profitability of Irish hotels was a mere 2.5 per cent of turnover and return on capital employed was generally negligible. Low occupancy levels have contributed to this low average figure, which compares with a figure of approximately 9 per cent for hotels globally. That further highlights the challenge facing us to expand the holiday season and to create tour packages which will attract tourists during off-peak periods. For example, in 1984 room occupancy in Ireland was 44 per cent, which compared adversely with the 67.5 per cent occupancy attained on the Continent and the 66.7 per cent in Great Britain. Furthermore, in 1985 monthly bed occupancy rates of 60 per cent were achieved only in the months of July and August. The average for May was 43 per cent and for September it was 53 per cent. We will not succeed in filling our hotels in the late spring and autumn if our price competitiveness does not improve. In the period 1980-85, in cumulative terms, our competitiveness declined by 16 per cent in the German market, 19 per cent in the French market and 15 per cent in the British market.

Visitors from the Continent are appalled by the fact that Irish prices, particularly beer prices, are 235 per cent above the Community average and Irish wine prices are 320 per cent higher than the average Community price. We have always urged that a selective tax cut regime should be considered to bring prices into line with those obtaining in other countries particularly in the UK and Northern Ireland. The motoring tourist from these two regions is crucial if we are to increase our market share. I have said repeatedly we cannot expect to compete as far as the motoring tourist is concerned with a price differential of up to £1 per gallon in petrol prices.

The Exchequer benefits considerably from tourism revenue. It is clear it would benefit from increased buoyancy in the sector. In 1985, tourism's share of total gross expenditure on the economic services was £34 million — 4 per cent for tourism as opposed to 46 per cent spent on agriculture and 43 per cent on industry. For their investment of £34 million the Government received £386 million in primary and secondary taxation.

While the Government's tax take from tourism has consistently increased, the public capital expenditure programme for tourism has been declining in current and constant values for years. Paragraph 13.2 of the White Paper states:

Capital grant schemes aimed at stimulating investment in the tourism industry have had to be curtailed and they must therefore become increasingly selective.

This is a retrograde step at a time when the industry lacks the seed capital for investment in capital projects.

Rather than this negative approach, I would have liked to see the White Paper acknowledge tourism as an export industry and a valuable source of foreign exchange. As a corollary, tourism should be allowed to participate in all the investment and incentive programmes available to manufacturing industry. Other export services are excluded from VAT and I have repeatedly said that there is scope to apply the 10 per cent rate of corporation tax to defined out of state tourism, as is the case with manufacturing industry.

In a situation where the average private sector investment in the Irish tourism industry is only 7 per cent as opposed to 25 per cent in the UK it makes no sense at all to exclude tourism from benefiting from venture capital resources, business expansion schemes and other personal investment opportunities available for other sectors. This would serve to improve capitalisation in the sector and would help to reduce the present overwhelming reliance on bank borrowings to finance development.

The Government should give serious consideration to increasing the availability of low interest loans for capital investment in tourism. This would be an act of good faith which would do much to renew confidence within the sector. Substantial funds available for tourism development at EC level must be tapped effectively. The Government might review the procedures for obtaining such funds. The system might work more effectively if agencies such as Bord Fáilte and the tourism organisations were in a position to deal directly with Brussels, rather than, as is now the case, be obliged to use as an intermediary the Department of Finance. The same applies to me. Unfortunately I do not get——

The Deputy may continue for 45 minutes. He is the main Opposition speaker. As soon as he concludes it will be the turn of the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. The Whips came to some decision about this but did not tell the Chair.

The Chair is precluded from applying that?

The Deputy may continue if he so wishes.

The Deputy's industrial relations speech——

It is an important aspect. Bord Fáilte's allocation of £2 million for grants for hotel refurbishment is welcome.

However, this must not be regarded as as substitute for generating private investment for the improvement of hotel buildings and facilities. The quality of the product is vital for market development. As our hotels do not have the resources themselves to maintain and develop their product and standard, the Government must help out by properly funded and worthwhile grant schemes which will bring about these improvements. The present grant scheme is too small and the grant percentage levels are too small. After paying consultants to certify work and draw up plans, the hotelier will end up with a grant of about 14 per cent. He must deduct the grant from his tax allowances so the actual grant is often about 8 per cent to the hotelier. That is not the level of help or incentive that will bring about the kind of investment the hotel industry of the nineties will require to serve Ireland and provide the jobs the young people so badly need. I ask the Minister if, in view of those two elements, he will consider reviewing the scheme at this stage.

I welcome Bord Fáilte's decision to launch a new subsidised marketing scheme for hotel groups. The involvement of increased numbers of hotels in tourist marketing both at home and abroad will, hopefully, improve the profitability of many small hotels. Some hotels have expressed disappointment at the selectivity of the new branding scheme. This can be overcome by consultation and an expansion of the scheme. The one thing I would ask the Minister to avoid is divisiveness. The marketing groups should receive more help from Bord Fáilte and everything must be done to ensure that they are not disadvantaged in the market place because of the board's involvement with the scheme. An assurance from the Minister on this point would be welcomed by the industry and would defuse any element of divisiveness which has existed since the announcement of the new branding scheme.

The recent ruling of the European Court of Justice that civil aviation falls within the remit of the Treaty of Rome should be embraced by the Government as a challenge and an opportunity. It signals the advert of a new era of competition in the world of aviation. For Ireland, it opens up exciting new possibilities of framing a more favourable access transport policy to maximise the number of visitors to this country.

As liberalisation advances, the anti-competition policy of price fixing between national airlines will be increasingly highlighted. Rate sharing and price fixing condoned by bilateral agreements and authorised by Government protectionism have consistently flouted the competitive clauses of the Treaty of Rome. I should like the Government to take a positive, long term view of the implications of this recent European Court decision to make air transport more competitive.

I repeat my call that national law should not seek to circumvent the declared intention at EC level to provide a multilateral solution to aviation pricing. Our commitment to the solvency and development of our national airline is not in question. Aer Lingus is vital to our national interests as an island economy. An innovative access transport policy developed specifically with tourism potential in mind is not necessarily in conflict with the long term interests of Aer Lingus. It requires trust, co-operation and the political will to do the job. I am convinced that if all three are brought into play good will ensure for the airline and the tourism industry. That is long overdue. If the Minister undertakes that initiative he will have my support.

It is clear, as the Minister pointed out recently — I was pleased to hear him do so — that pricing on the cross-Channel ferries needs a healthy injection of competition. It is completely unnacceptable to me that rates on the Irish Sea have been increased by between 10 per cent and 15 per cent above the rate of inflation. I fully support the Minister's view that Sealink and B & I should be asked to review their fare structure between the Republic and England. In this way the 25 per cent price differential on the Irish Sea, which is to our disadvantage, might be eliminated.

Regular and competitive air and sea links are essential if we are to maximise our tourist potential. The failure last year to ensure the continuation of the sea connection between Cork and Britain and its subsequent adverse effects on tourism in the south and south-west underlines the dependency of tourism on frequent and regular sea links. Fianna Fáil are fully aware of the importance of the Cork/Wales link and we will do everything in our power to encourage the long term provision of sea links with our nearest neighbour. As an island economy we must have an expansionist sea-ferry policy. To do otherwise will be counterproductive and will make a nonsense of trying to restore the UK market and develop the European tourist market. We are the only country in Europe that does not draw its biggest tourist earnings from its nearest neighbouring country. We should redress that.

As part of an integrated approach to tourism development, and from the perspective of improving the quality of life for all our citizens, it is most desirable to facilitate an expansion of the activities of the Environmental Awareness Bureau which has been doing sterling work notwithstanding its meagre resources. The environment will be a crucial element in tourist development here in the future. Anything the Minister does in that regard will have the support of all Members. The environment has been neglected.

The Deputy will be aware that when I was Minister for the Environment I established that bureau.

As far as we are concerned the environment has been neglected. We have an obligation to leave the environment in at least as good condition as it was when it passed on to us. That element of tourism has been neglected in the last 15 years. We should outline our policy in regard to the environment. I expect the Minister, following the review by the bureau, to support any recommendations that are put forward and provide any money required.

I should like to refer to a statement by a senior figure in the tourist industry, Mr. Conor McCarthy, President of the Hotels Federation. In April last he condemned the use of the years of failure as a base to extrapolate future trends and the future possibilities of the Irish tourist industry. It was exactly this defeatist reckoning which inspired the Government's White Paper. I do not share that defeatism. There is a strong growth potential in the Irish tourism industry if the appropriate Government policies are implemented to enable us to penetrate what is a huge and growing market. We should work to get the tourist brief away from a dependency it has had for so many years in the political sense. It has never had the right political status and was always added on to some other Ministry with the result that it did not have the political clout at the Cabinet table when national Exchequer funding was being shared out. I recommend to the Minister, and any other administration, to allow tourism stand on its own right. Until it gets the political clout as an independent brief at Cabinet level it cannot achieve its desired aim as the third largest industry in the country.

As Minister of State with responsibility for Tourism I should like to take this opportunity to say a few words about the tourism industry. As Minister Kavanagh has already said, 1985 was a very successful year for Irish tourism. Overseas visitors numbers increased by 6 per cent on the 1984 figure to a record 1,944,000, just 56,000 short of the two million mark. The overall out-of-state revenue figure, including carrier receipts and excursionist revenue, was £691 million. This represented a 17 per cent increase on 1984.

I am pleased to report that all our main overseas markets achieved a real term growth in revenue. The spectacular performance of the North American market, with visitor numbers up 23 per cent to 422,000 and revenue up 29 per cent in real terms to over £190 million, exceeded all our expectations. The continental European market also performed very well with significant increases in both visitor numbers and revenue from all of the main markets. The French and German markets in particular showed a much improved performance with revenue increasing in real terms by 26 per cent and 9 per cent respectively.

Looking ahead to the 1986 season I would have liked to be in a position to say to the House today that Bord Fáilte's original growth targets for 1986 set at the beginning of the year will be achieved. However, I think that all involved in the industry will concede that it will be difficult to achieve any level of growth this year. Clearly the reluctance of Americans to travel to Europe will have an adverse impact on the level of American business this year. At this stage it is difficult to quantify the likely impact of the European security problems on US visitor traffic. I am pleased to say, however, that in the light of the recent Bord Fáilte and industry renewed drive in the US market it is hoped that the effects on Irish tourism will be minimal. It is reassuring to hear that the two new US airlines operating in to Ireland this year — Pan Am and Delta — have had some very positive indications arising from their marketing campaigns. Overall, therefore, I am optimistic that the combined efforts of Bord Fáilte, and the industry in the US market, will minimise the effect on Irish tourism of the drastic reduction in American traffic to Europe. At this stage Bord Fáilte anticipate that the level of North American traffic to Ireland will be somewhere between the 1984 and 1985 performance. Given the circumstances, this performance, if realised, will indeed be a creditable one. The revenue arising from North American traffic in 1984 was actually second only to last year's.

As regards our other overseas markets, I am happy to report that Bord Fáilte growth targets for the British and Continental European markets should be achieved in 1986. In so far as Britain is concerned, the trade are generally optimistic. Carrier and tour operator advance bookings compare most favourably with 1985. Likewise, trade impressions to date regarding the Continental European market are optimistic and no problems are envisaged in meeting the targeted growth rate of 6 per cent.

In so far as the domestic market is concerned, 1985 saw a welcome, albeit small, return to growth. Bord Fáilte are confident that this growth will be maintained in 1986. The budget tax concessions, allied to the lower inflation rate, will make holiday packages much more keenly priced for the home holiday taker. Given a reasonably good summer, the outlook must be considerably brighter for home holidays. The likely performance of the Northern Ireland market is difficult to assess. However, despite apparent difficulties in that market, Bord Fáilte are hopeful that some growth can be achieved.

At this juncture I must stress the importance of effective promotion and marketing by all involved in the industry. This message was emphasised most strongly in the tourism White Paper. It is fair to say that the 1985 overseas tourism performance was due in no small way to the promotional and marketing efforts by Bord Fáilte and the industry. As the Minister has indicated, the Government in this Estimate propose to allocate over £27½ million to Bord Fáilte for the development of tourism and this will include over £12 million for direct promotion. I am glad to note the growing awareness within the industry itself of the importance of marketing overseas, and this is most encouraging.

This year I had the opportunity of participating with the Irish trade in Bord Fáilte promotions in Belgium, Germany and Switzerland. I saw at first hand the efforts of the board and various sectors of the industry to market Irish tourism. I was heartened by the numbers of prospective tourists which attended these promotions. Above all, I was most impressed by the professionalism of those representatives of the industry participating at these promotions. I have no doubt that they will be rewarded by increased business this year and later. The clear message from these and promotions of earlier years is that those operators who market their products in the market place are the operators who achieve good results.

Reductions in the rate of VAT on a range of tourism related products in recent budgets have made Irish tourism a much more saleable product. Our VAT rate on tourism is among the lowest in Europe. This, coupled with our reduced rate of inflation, means that we now offer a much more competitive product. It should be remembered, however, that rival destinations are also competitively priced and for this reason it is imperative, if we are to secure our share of the growing tourism market, that we market our product in an effective and aggressive way. The Government are playing their role in providing a favourable economic climate in which the industry can develop but the industry must react positively and with greater effort than heretofore. It is only through a total commitment to marketing by all involved in tourism that the industry's real potential as an earner of export revenue and a generator of employment can be realised.

While the North American, British and Continental European markets will continue to be our main markets, we should not be deterred from exploring and developing the potential of other fast growing markets. The White Paper on Tourism Policy, for example, referred to the potential of new markets such as the Far East and Australia.

In Australia, where 25 per cent of the population claim Irish ancestry, new opportunities for Irish tourism are emerging. The visit by President Hillery last year and the approaching Australian bicentenary are viewed by Bord Fáilte as opportunities to increase awareness of Ireland in that market as a holiday destination. During the Presidential visit Bord Fáilte arranged a number of promotions in the principal Australian cities and were most encouraged by the interest displayed in Ireland as a tourism destination. Later this year Bord Fáilte, for the first time, intend holding a series of trade workshops in Perth, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane.

The board are also actively involved with the British Tourist Authority in promoting business from Australia. The two bodies co-operate through joint advertising of combined Britain and Ireland holiday packages. Currently some 300,000 Australians visit Europe, mainly Britain, each year and more than 35,000 make the short additional trip to Ireland during their stay in Britain. I am hopeful that this level of traffic to Ireland can be increased significantly through Bord Fáilte's efforts to have Dublin common rated for fares purposes with London and other mainland Europe destinations from Australia.

Japan is another market with considerable potential for growth. The volume of Japanese tourist traffic to Europe is growing and, while numbers actually visiting Ireland to date have been small, there is potential for very real growth. A particularly encouraging development has been the inclusion of Dublin in the new common rated air fares for group incentive travel from Japan to western European destinations. This in effect means that groups coming from Japan to London can pre-arrange their holiday programmes so that they can travel on to Dublin and back to London at no extra cost. Efforts are also being made to expand the application of the common rating principle for those Japanese holidaymakers not availing of group package tours.

While on the subject of developing new markets and business, I would like to mention the importance of attracting international conferences to Ireland. Conference business in 1985 attracted 58,000 visitors and generated revenue amounting to £29.5 million. This represented increases of 3 per cent and 13 per cent respectively over 1984. I am glad to be able to say that this performance is consistent with the pattern of increased business in this very important sector of the tourism market which has been developing since the mid-seventies.

The Convention Bureau of Ireland has had considerable success in promoting Ireland as a conference destination. Over the years they have succeeded in attracting many professional and business conferences to this country and today Ireland is well established in the international scene as an excellent destination for conferences providing good support and back-up services. The Government in their White Paper have recognised the importance of this fast growing sector of the market. Conference business is particularly significant in that in the main it attracts visitors in the shoulder or off-season time of the year thus helping to alleviate the problem of seasonality.

It is recognised that conference delegates spend significantly more than normal tourists in other market segments due mainly to the fact that their visits are very often subsidised in one way or another, thereby increasing their spending power. Conference business is, therefore, a very lucrative source of tourism revenue. I would recommend very strongly that Irish business interests and Irish delegates to international organisations continue to do all in their power to encourage such bodies to hold their conferences in Ireland. I can assure them that Bord Fáilte, through the Convention Bureau of Ireland, will give them every assistance possible to help influence conference decisions in favour of Ireland.

While promotion and marketing are of vital importance, we must ensure that the physical and operational standards of all products offered by the industry are at least on a par with those available abroad. It is one thing to attract visitors to our shores but we must also ensure that their expectations are not only met but exceeded. Failure to meet the customers' demands will only serve to undermine Bord Fáilte's and the industry's promotional and marketing efforts. The Bord's Capital Grant Schemes and the ICC Tourism Global Loan Scheme provide the necessary incentive to the industry to further develop the tourism product. Therefore, I would like to see increased capital investment by commercial interests in upgrading existing facilities and providing a wider range of tourist attractions for our visitors.

As the Minister has indicated, a provision of almost £4 million has been made available for the board's capital development programme in 1986. The House will, of course, be aware that the statutory limits on aggregate grant expenditure by Bord Fáilte are set out in the Tourist Traffic Acts. In that regard it is anticipated that the statutory limits in respect of grants for development are likely to expire in 1987. Accordingly, the Department will be commencing work shortly on the preparation of legislation to further extend these limits. It is the intention to have the legislation introduced in the Oireachtas before the end of 1986.

I would like again to mention the importance of access transport. The tourist industry in Ireland is particularly dependent on access transport for future development. If there is not sufficient and competitively priced access on existing air and sea routes to Ireland there can be no growth for Irish tourism. I am happy that recently there has been a trend towards more competitive pricing in relation to air fares. I hope that this is not a short term trend but that it will be continued in the interests of tourism development.

I want to express my hope for the success of the RyanAir service between Luton and Dublin. This service offers the best ever instant purchase air fare to Ireland and its success will hopefully lead to an extension of this concept to other cross-channel and European routes.

Another aspect of air services that I have been investigating is the possibility of developing feeder services from Shannon to regional airports. It has been stressed to me in recent times that there is a demand among up-market tourists for feeder air services within Ireland to our more popular tourist areas. In particular the possibility of establishing air links between Shannon and Farranfore and Shannon and Galway is currently being investigated. I hope to have a report on the viability of possible services very shortly.

I am pleased that the importance and potential of tourism as a significant contributor to the EC's economic and regional development has at last been acknowledged by the EC Commission. However, it is a cause of some concern that the Community, so many years after its establishment, has yet to agree a definitive tourism policy. Early this year the Commissioner with responsibility for tourism submitted a policy document on tourism entitled Community Action in the Field of Tourism to the Council. Member states are currently discussing the document. This document had been eagerly awaited in Ireland as we had for some time been pressing the Commission to bring forward positive proposals for the tourism area. During contacts with the present and former Commissioner I suggested certain ideas in the hope that to some extent at least they would be reflected in the Commission's proposals.

I emphasised the need to develop tourism policies which would take account of the needs of the less developed areas of the Community that have little potential for other types of economic development. I also drew particular attention to the very real prospects for expansion of tourism in Ireland and to the assistance that a progressive Community policy would give to expedite this.

It is apparent, however, on examination of the Commission document that our concerns were not taken into account and that the policies being proposed will do nothing of any significance to assist tourism development in this country or indeed in other disadvantaged areas of the EC.

What is needed urgently from the Commission is a real commitment to positive policies aimed at spreading the growing economic benefits of tourism much more widely within the EC. It is disappointing that the opportunity of taking meaningful Community action to achieve this goal has been overlooked in a document purporting to be the framework for future Community policy. I well understand that there may be opposition in certain parts of the EC to positive policies that would of necessity require some degree of Community funding. This, to my mind, should not deter the Commission from addressing the issue.

I will therefore be availing of every opportunity to make known our concerns in this matter and to urge the authorities in Brussels to revise their current proposals to take full account of tourism's potential to contribute both to economic growth and job creation.

As we have said, we do not believe that the Estimates and the budget provisions for forestry, fisheries and tourism are adequate to deal with the current situation in these important industries. Neither do I believe the administrative arrangements are adequate. As Deputy Flynn said earlier, it is regrettable that the Government should group together three very important areas. It would be more appropriate if we had the administrative and political structures to deal with these matters on an individual basis because each is important.

For that reason, in putting forward our policies for the next election, Fianna Fáil have set out in their policy document their intention to establish a new marine Department. We are an island country with huge untapped resources around us and such a Department could ensure that those resources are exploited fully. That cannot be done in the tinkering that is being carried out at present. There is overlapping, duplication and fragmentation in all these areas. It is desirable that we should have an opportunity to establish that new Department which we believe will enable us to exploit and use the enormous resources around us.

In any debate here on fisheries we have had numerous promises from the Minister regarding a White Paper on fisheries and again this evening we had a further promise from the Minister that something would be done later this year. A number of important reports have been made on the fishing industry and many people have looked forward to the promised White Paper with anticipation and perhaps some apprehension. At this time there is a new commitment being made to the industry and I will give an indication of what I mean. I refer to the arrival in Killybegs of our largest fishing super trawler, the 213 foot Atlantic Challenge which has been provided at a cost of £6 million. This is a sign of the courage and commitment of people like Seamus Tully, Martin Howley and the others involved in that development and it will give hope and encouragement to many fishermen at a time of depression in the industry. People like Seamus Tully and others have been prepared to put their money into fisheries development and they have embarked on an exciting project that will encourage the development of the fishing industry in Donegal. At a time of depression and disillusionment in the industry, it is encouraging to see such welcome signs. For our part we must encourage that development and provide the necessary incentives to allow people like Seamus Tully to continue with their valuable work.

The development in question will provide new opportunities and will be an encouragement to others. The resources are there to be exploited and there is an obligation on all of us to see that is done. Rather than fishermen criticising politicians and vice versa, we must work together to help the industry. We must not allow the Spaniards, Portuguese or the Norwegians to do the work for us. We have the capacity and ability that is necessary. We have also some financial backing but what is needed is political action by the Government to encourage investment in the fishing industry.

As the Minister pointed out, there are some encouraging signs in that interest rates and fuel prices are falling. However, I should like to ask the Minister if he is satisfied that the benefit of the fall in interest rates and in fuel prices is being passed on the the fishermen and those involved in the industry. I am not satisfied that has been the case. Crude oil prices have fallen by two-thirds in world markets but that reduction has not been evident here to the same extent. In addition, there are wild fluctuations in the prices charged from one harbour to the next and this happens in respect of diesel and petrol also. As a result, motorists and consumers generally are confused and it is obvious that positive Government action is needed. Unless the industry are prepared to be reasonable and sensible in their pricing arrangements, the Government should reactivate the price control mechanism. Unfortunately, that mechanism was scrapped by them earlier this year.

The Common Fisheries Policy has been in operation for some time. While it is working reasonably well in some areas, there are grounds for disillusionment with the way the industry are operating in other regards. The Minister referred to the crisis in herring fishing. We are adversely affected mainly by imports of herring into the Community from third countries. Already there has been a call for a duty to be charged on such imports to stabilise and rectify the problems in our herring markets. I would like to hear if it is possible to introduce tariffs or duties on herring from outside the Community because this is destabilising our market. If that cannot be done, action should be taken to ban the importation of herring into the Community.

There is evidence that the fishing quota arrangements for all species are inadequate. As regards mackerel we have problems of stock and difficulties in mackerel fishing, but we have a special position in relation to mackerel. About 60 per cent of our total catch is mackerel and we must get some concessions on our mackerel quota or many jobs will be lost. In any reappraisal of our membership of the EC there must be a case made to have a substantial increase in the quotas for all species, but especially for mackerel. We have had a number of committee reports, the most important from the Sectoral Development Committee on sea fishing and the aquacultural industry, but we have seen no positive action on the recommendations and there is nothing in tonight's Estimate to suggest the Government will be taking action along these lines.

Last year we were told that an aquaculture unit would be established in the Department and I am glad that has been done. We welcome that development. Aquaculture is very important because it can create jobs and revenue can accrue to the State. We may be able to produce goods which we are at present importing and there will be a possibility for secondary processing of up-market quality products. This will provide potential job opportunities in isolated communities around our coasts. I believe the unit in the Department will help to eliminate overlapping and duplication in that area because at present there are a number of agencies involved in the designation and licensing processes and this is retarding development. We would like to see this process streamlined and made more efficient. Perhaps the Minister would take some positive action to fully exploit the potential of aquaculture.

Difficulties in the salmon fishing industry seem to worsen season by season. It is regrettable that even at present salmon fishermen are imprisoned because of breaches of the salmon fishing regulations. Nobody condones the flagrant violation of these regulations but when the salmon fishing industry is in danger of collapse, it is time for the Government to take action to deal with that crisis. There must be a measure of co-operation between the salmon fishermen, the staff of the regional boards and the conservationists. You cannot have protection and conservation unless there is this co-operation. The situation we have seen over the last number of years must be brought to an end and I ask the Minister of State to take an interest in this area, to sit down with the fishermen and try to work out reasonable and sensible and workable regulation to control salmon fishing. Unless this is done we will not have any peace or prosperity in this industry.

There is a need for further strengthening of the protection services to meet changing circumstances since Spain joined the Community. We must take account of the enlarged Community fleet, bearing in mind that almost every day we see flagrant violations of the fishery regulations by the Spanish fleet. Almost every day at least one vessel is apprehended for operating illegally. That has to stop. The Community must provide more financial aid and resources. A recently published Dáil report indicated that the Community should fund the operation of the protection service.

We fully endorse the Minister's views to support exploratory fishing. Boats which do not find it possible to exist within the present arrangement could be utilised for that purpose — to get involved in exploratory fishing, to exploit new species and areas and so on. We have already criticised the failure of the Government to provide the necessary funds to support the research programme by the Lough Beltra, our only fisheries research vessel. We have heard a great deal about Sellafield and pollution of the Irish Sea, but at a time when there is need for research in this very important area we find the Government cutting back on the allocation for research by the Lough Beltra. This vessel is inadequately funded. We say Sellafield should be closed.

I want to refer now to safety at sea. We are conscious of the need to provide a good communications system all around our coastline. We have seen that there is a risk to the signals on the east and north-west coasts and we ask the Minister to take urgent action to deal with this very important problem. If the signal is cut off it will create hazards for our fishermen. This week we saw a tragic accident in the Aran Islands with a loss of life. We will see more of this unless adequate safety precautions are taken around our coastline and the necessary communications network is provided.

There is a dual strategy needed to solve the problems in the timber industry. The present structure is not adequate to deal with changing circumstances. We believe a new commercially orientated semi-State organisation is needed to exploit the potential of our forests. We also see a need for a very vigorous and intensive drive to increase afforestation. Land reserved for this purpose is at a critically low level. Planting targets have not been reached. Last year we achieved half our target. We need to reach the target of 10,000 hectares, 25,000 acres, and stick rigidly to that. We are importing timber; the United Kingdom is importing 90 per cent of her timber requirements and in the foreseeable future the EC will import billions of pounds worth of timber. Yet we are allowing our planting targets to go into decline.

We are not meeting the stated objectives and targets set down by successive Governments. Thousands of jobs are being put at risk in the sawmilling industry because of the failure to provide adequate timber for that industry. Timber mills are working at half capacity and jobs are being lost every day in the timber area. We have a huge potential which is not being exploited, and we have the climate and conditions to grow timber at twice or three times the rate of anywhere else in Europe. Opportunities are there at home and abroad for us. Is there any reason why we cannot build anything on these at this time? Time has caught up on us. I regret that we have not the time to go in detail into all the areas covered by these two Estimates.

Deputy, your time is up.

Let me say——

—— finally — that the present administration in sea fisheries, inland fisheries and in the timber industry will not get the desired results. In timber we need a new State-sponsored, commercially orientated administration to deal effectively in a commercial way with the problems in that industry. In fisheries with the return of Fianna Fáil we will soon have Roinn na Mara who will undertake with the Marine Institute and the Agricultural Institute to develop our potential fully.

Deputy Prendergast, and let me advise the numerous Deputies on offer that the Minister must conclude the debate at 8.15 p.m. With your co-operation I will try to get in as many as possible.

I take note of what you say and I will be as brief as possible to allow my colleagues to say a few words. I welcome the allocation of almost £26 million by the Government for the promotion of tourism this year. This is a recognition of the fact that it is one of our major industries not alone in terms of the revenue it brings to the State but also in terms of employment potential. I refer in particular to that element of the Minister's speech about the need for greater imagination and flair in promoting what we have to sell and I agree fully with that suggestion. Greater emphasis should be placed on marketing. Regarding the German area alone, the indications are that there will be an increase in tourism from Continential Europe this year of the order of 6 per cent, and that is to be encouraged.

An amazing contradiction is evident at times in our behaviour as a nation. We are a brilliant people when it comes to writing. Dublin is the only city in the world which has produced three winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature and that does not take into account James Joyce's contribution to English literature. We have a wonderful imagination when it comes to writing and we do not make sufficient use of that in the development of tourism which can be a magnificent contribution to the economy if it is properly developed. I speak in particular about some aspects of our history and civilisation which are very much under-focused by Bord Fáilte. For example, I spent time in Quimper in Brittany, a city which has a twinning arrangement with my city and I was absolutely enthralled some years ago to see there a presentation in French to a largely continental audience by a sociology lecturer from UCD, a very competent young lady. She highlighted the old type of civilisation on our west coast, sean nós singing and so on. The audience were as enthralled, as I was.

This is not purely an abstract, academic or sociological aspect. Other countries have been very quick to latch on to their strength in such areas. I call to mind Bob Quinn's television series entitled "The Atlantian" in which he posits the theory that our culture owes very much to the Greek and Coptic, North African influence. Some older manuscripts indicate that there were Greek speaking settlements or residual influences of Greek culture in Kerry and Mayo. These are fairly well documented. Such things should be highlighted by somebody with imagination in Bord Fáilte, or a division should be set up in Bord Fáilte to sponsor that kind of market in response to some elements of the European population who are interested. I have met many school teachers, historians and students and I know that very interesting tourist packages can be arranged with that kind of thing in mind.

I am not talking solely about the promotion of the west coast which Elizabeth Ferris, travel correspondent of The Times, some years ago described on “The Late Late Show” as the last piece of unspoiled and the most magnificent stretch of coastline in Europe. Another part of our history is as yet largely unexploited in terms of tourism. I am talking about the heritage of our towns and cities. Everybody is aware of the wonderful work the OPW did in the restoration of the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham. The whole nation takes pride in that as do some thinking people in Europe where recently we won the Europa Nostra prize from the Council of Europe for what was done in that regard.

I posit the idea to the OPW, the Government and the Minister that other places besides Dublin might get a share of public moneys to do something similar. If I appear to be talking on a narrow basis, I hope the House will forgive me. I am always reluctant to do that, but let me refer to what has been done in my city which is the oldest in the country. We sent four Danish bishops to Canterbury before Dublin or Armagh even got their act sorted out between them. Limerick, Waterford, Wexford and other places have a huge Viking heritage.

The Limerick Civic Trust are a voluntary body set up by interested persons. They are the only such body in this country, although Britain has hundreds of them and they have done marvellous work there. The Limerick Civic Trust are doing magnificent restoration work on the older parts of the city and I am delighted to compliment this Government on the fact that the Minister in his budget speech allocated £100,000 to the trust to aid them in that work. The OPW in conjunction with the Minister for Tourism should allocate some of their resources to such prospects around the country as they did with the Royal Hospital.

I am trying to respond to the Minister's suggestion that we come up with more ideas. For example, SFADCo proposed to develop a model Viking settlement in Limerick at Little Island in the older part of the city alongside the English town where a continuum of people have lived for well over 1,000 years. Documents in The Royal Irish Academy written by a man called Rafer in 1015 and referred to in Lenihan's History of Limerick 1866 refer to Vikings living in Limerick. Rafer was from Iceland and spent most of his life in Limerick city. I say that because SFADCo wanted to recreate a Viking settlement as was done in York, a magnificent centre, which has attracted a million foreign tourists. The same should be done in Limerick, Waterford and Wexford, the old Viking cities, which were part of our heritage before they were superseded by the Normans. I understand that SFADCo have been curtailed from doing this work because of lack of funds. It is criminally shortsighted to fail to provide money to develop tourist potential which will give employment and make our towns and cities clean and interesting for foreigners to visit and will also give pleasure to our own people.

I must criticise the Office of Public Works in other areas. For example, property in Limerick city owned by them is lying derelict and is a reflection on us because it is civic vandalism. I specifically refer to Rutland Street alongside the Custom House. The Custom House was built in 1780 but now has no roof on it. It is at the main entrance to the city and I have been assured by way of an answer to a parliamentary question that this eyesore will be taken away. However, although it is an embarrassment to Limerick Corporation, they cannot touch it because it is owned by the Office of Public Works. King John's Castle is another example of what I am talking about. It was built in 1210, five years before the signing of the Magna Carta by King John, and it is the finest example of Norman castle architecture in the country. Yet it has an unkempt, untidy and dirty appearance because of growth on the walls facing the Shannon. There are weeds and greenery and the wall is broken. If the Office of Public Works had any civic pride they would do something about introducing proper symmetry to the walls and giving them a decent appearance because it is the first focal point for visitors to Limerick. I appeal to the Minister to speak to the Office of Public Works regarding what might be done in towns and cities. I accept that they do not have much money at their disposal but they should put their own historic property in order.

I commend the small family homes and farm guesthouses which are making a magnificent contribution to the economy. They should be encouraged because they give the best value for money in Europe. There are high standards laid down by Bord Fáilte and they make a lasting good impression on foreign tourists who never have a word of criticism to say about them. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of some hotels and restaurants. Recently, inspectors from the Department of Health spoke about the serious lack of standards of hygiene and cleanliness in restaurants. Such restaurants should be closed down unless there is an immediate and visible improvement in their standards. The kind of report which appeared in the newspapers last week regarding some of the restaurants in the city will frighten off tourists quicker than anything else. The Minister should look at the possibility of appointing someone with overall responsibility to promote tidiness and cleanliness in our cities. The British Government did this last week. I do not suggest that we ape them in everything, but this is a good idea. There is no such thing as a dirty city or town, only dirty people and, unfortunately, we are a dirty, careless people. The first principle of organisational development is a recognition of our problems and then dealing with them.

Wearing the hat of the chairman of the Joint Committee on semi-State bodies, I wish to state that there is a huge potential for employment in the fishing industry. We are a maritime nation, grossly under-capitalised and under-utilised in terms of creating jobs in that area. It is absurd to have at least four State agencies — the ESB, Inland Fisheries, Údarás na Gaeltachta and Bord Iascaigh Mhara — all involved in the promotion of fisheries. That is a quadruplication of very scarce national resources. The Government should appoint someone to cut out this wasteful practice and to maximise employment potential.

I understand that there has been a stampede by foreigners in relation to mariculture developments in our bays and estuaries. Under EC trading conditions we cannot stop that but we should encourage our own people to get involved in this area so that we will reap the benefits.

I should like to remind Deputies that other speakers wish to contribute. Perhaps the Deputy could confine himself to a short speech.

How much time do I have?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has 20 minutes but the Minister is replying at 8.15 p.m. so perhaps the Deputy could make a short contribution.

It is unfortunate that time is limited as so many speakers wish to contribute to this important debate. It is even more unfortunate that it is a limited debate of three and a half hours. Furthermore, prior to the amalgamation of Fisheries and Forestry with Tourism, we would have had much more time. This is a retrogade step as far as Fisheries and Forestry are concerned, because they play an inferior role to tourism. One has to give credit to the fact that Fisheries and Forestry were established with a full Minister but, unfortunately, tourism has now taken over. I hope that in future we will have more time to discuss these matters.

One of the big problems that fishermen and skippers continue to face relates to finance. The aid package introduced last year was welcomed with reservations, but it only affected those who had ties with BIM. There are many other people in the industry who have loans from other institutions who are not covered. They should be included in the same package. While that aid package alleviated the situation at the time and resulted in a better loans performance in some cases, we had a difficult situation last year caused by the atrocious weather conditions and a drop in the price of fish. Consequently this aid package did not have the effect we would have expected. In view of this I would ask the Minister to make a case to the Government to provide more money for BIM to continue aid and cover the vessels that have no ties to BIM. If finance can be provided for farmers it should be provided to fishermen because their problems are just as serious. If a boat is repossessed from an experienced skipper who has spent many years at sea, it is sold or the loan is transferred to a fisherman with very little experience. The experienced man is then lost to the industry and we cannot afford this.

In regard to the salmon situation, it is a fallacy to believe just because during the short salmon fishing period substantial amounts of money are made by fishermen that they are well off. It must be remembered that that is the only income they have, fishing in boats from 30 to 49ft., some in boats smaller than 30 ft. It is wrong that they should be tarnished with making a lot of money illegally. What other industry would ask men to go out and fish, in this technological age, with less effective nets? The Department can accept fishermen going out with multistrand nets and the new type of net, monoace, and that is not illegal. Yet they are very similar to the monofilament nets. What we are saying is that we should burn hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of monofilament nets but that it is quite legal to use monoace nets, which is precisely the same thing.

The Minister must have a look at this. We have been saying this every year for the last number of years. It is only fair that we should give this Minister an opportunity to look at it. When previous Ministers were asked to look at the situation we were always told that it was much too near the salmon season which did not give enough time to change the regulations and that we should look at it after the season.

I fully accept that, but one must question the sincerity of it when, year in year out, it is not looked at. We must grasp the nettle and try to ensure that regulations are drawn up by the Department and by the fishermen's organisations and their representatives. We are making a very reasonable case and, if bailiffs are to be introduced, the best bailiffs would be the fishermen themselves. They fully appreciate that they must conserve the salmon. No fisherman wants to kill off a renewable resource. This could happen and we will have an illegal situation if we do not do something about it. As I said earlier, it is all right to use these other nets, but we have the absurd situation where multi-strand netting and monoace netting can be used legally for gill netting and the only difference is that there would be weights on for the gill netting of white fish but not for the other fish. Fishermen then find that they have to prove themselves innocent, which is a complete reversal of common justice. In a case that was brought to court last year there was a doubt as to what type of fishing was going on.

It is not popular to advocate this, but it is important to be practical about it and to try to regulate salmon fishing. There is a fair amount of commitment on the part of the fishermen. They have invested a fair amount of money over the years in the provision of stocks by way of payments to the Northern Regional Fisheries Board and the other boards. There is no joy for the fishermen going out during the summer to find that there is a problem of breaking the law and there is that fear there all the time. The fishermen should be able to go out and enjoy the fishing and the only way they can do that is by working within the regulations. But it is not possible to do it because of the amount of that net available now. On the other hand, the Department of Finance are quite happy to accept VAT and other duties from the sale of that net, admittedly for white fish purposes. The Minister of State should get together with the organisations to try to resolve this problem, if not for this year definitely for next year.

There are still serious problems with the Spaniards. The problem has not been resolved since the Spaniards and the Portuguese became members of the EC. The Spaniards are fishing illegally and it is very difficult to establish the amount of illegal fishing. A rule of thumb is that some of those large boats can take about £1 million worth of illegal fish from our waters each year. We had an absurd situation recently where the same vessel has been caught for the fifth time, but there is the loophole whereby the names of the vessels, the skippers or the owners are changed and those people have got off with the minimum fine. This creates a situation where it pays them to fish illegally because of the pool insurance system that they operate. They have never denied this. We have made that allegation on numerous occasions inside and outside this House. The Spaniards have never denied it and I would go so far as to say that they are being aided and abetted by their own Department out there. The situation will become increasingly worse after the ten year transition period because we are not developing and we are not encouraging our fishermen to become more involved with the bigger boats which can go out there and mix it with them. Let me take this opportunity of complimenting Seamus Tully and Martin Hurley on the purchase of their new 213 ft. boat, the Atlantic Challenge. Unfortunately we have not contributed one penny towards that boat. If we are serious about this transition period and being able to mix it with other European countries we should be looking at the situation whereby we can help these people by giving them a grant, whether it is of 5 per cent or 25 per cent, and trying to avail of the larger grants from Europe.

Some time ago the system of grants was changed. The size of boat was increased from 24 to 33 metres between perpendiculars, but we did it only when we found that smaller boats might be becoming obsolete. Why did we not go the whole way and try to grant aid the much bigger vessels? We did not do so when the super trawlers could have availed of this grant aid. One must be grateful that they can now avail of it as regards lengthening of boats but on condition that they change over to a different type of fishing. This grant is in connection with new boats and boats being lengthened in which there are not RSW tanks, but dry hold storage, to make sure that the fishermen change over to white fish.

The position regarding the herring market is serious, with that fish being sold for £4.50 per box as against £28 per box some few years ago. This is as a result of the opening up of the North Sea and there is very little that we could do about that. We could certainly try to ensure that the herring coming in from Canada and taking up markets in which we could have engaged in Europe should be subject to duty to try to deter these shipments. It is difficult for us to complain too bitterly in the European context about the herring market if we are prepared to allow the Canadians to ship herring into the community, while we must go to the Eastern Bloc countries looking for markets. I see no good reason for this, but perhaps the Minister of State may have some answer to it.

Unfortunately, there is still a considerable amount of mackerel in the country because of the difficulties in Nigeria. We could sell all that mackerel to Nigeria if we were prepared to accept their currency, but unfortunately that currency will not be accepted by banks in the western world. That is a matter for the people in private enterprise, who should be complimented on their tremendous efforts over difficult months to try to sell these mackerel stocks. It is hoped that those efforts will bear fruit and that a market will be secured before the next season. Any help that can be given should be given.

It is unfortunate that there is no export subsidy for mackerel going to third countries. If that were the case, it would be of some advantage to these exporters.

There is a ludicrous situation regarding research. The European quotas of mackerel seem to be based on surveys carried out around the Porcupine Bank and to the south west. No research whatsoever is being carried on along the west coasts of Ireland or Scotland. Fishermen have returned from those fishing grounds over the past number of years and their markings have shown vast quantities of mackerel. Mackerel, being a migratory species, may have changed their pattern due to the change in temperature of the water. This has happened in Canada, where the herring pattern has changed because of the water temperature there. The Community carried out nine surveys and not one of those was off the west coast. The Minister referred to some surveys off the west coast on mackerel, but that is thanks to the people in the industry, the fishermen and the processors. They are prepared to invest £45,000 to carry out a survey and the Government are not prepared to do so. When the results of those surveys are made available, I hope they will be brought to the attention of the ICES people, in trying to improve the total allowable catch and our 4.6 per cent quota. It is hoped that we could strive for a greater percentage of the total allowable catch.

There are no loans available within BIM for new vessels or for second-hand vessels offered at a low cost. There is very little BIM can do about this as the only loans available are transfers of existing loans. This is sad in an industry which should be developing.

I note that there is no reference whatsoever in the Minister's contribution to Burtonport. This harbour has developed well over the years, but development has now almost stopped because the larger boats cannot enter the harbour. It is vitally important that money be provided out of the next Estimate to dredge Burtonport harbour and extend the existing facilities. I have not time to go into the commitments given by Roinn na Gaeltachta and the Department of Fisheries, but now we find that the council are to provide 25 per cent of the expenditure. I throw out a challenge to the Minister that we in Donegal County Council will provide 25 per cent of the cost if the Government will come up with £3 for every £1, which will be available as soon as the Government are ready to move.

I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the processors and the fishermen. Over the last number of years, particularly since this Government took office, the industry would have been stagnant but for the investment of these people.

With reference to the recent report on value for money within the industry, it is unfortunate that there are Deputies who feel too much money is being invested in the industry when judged by the return. They must remember that this is investment in rural areas, largely along the west coast, where the approach should be a social and economic one.

I shall refer briefly to forestry. We have great opportunities here for forestry development, opportunities undreamt of by those who saw decades ago the need for a positive forestry approach. Those were the Fianna Fáil administrations who saw forestry essentially as a national development for national needs. Now we can look far beyond those needs. All these opportunities seem lost under the present administration. In bad times like those we live in, of high unemployment and almost vanished hope, we need an administration which is prepared to seize opportunities to make use of national resources which cry out for development. The Minister should be telling us today, not of the poor progress made in the past year with regard to afforestation but of plans for the future. These should cover a State planting programme and take account of the opportunities for realistic and sizeable private afforestation. Unfortunately, we have not time to develop the theme of a private afforestation programme tonight, but I believe such a programme should supplement State planting and in time could match, and even exceed, that programme in importance. Such a programme needs to be well planned.

I take this opportunity to sympathise with the families of the two fishermen who lost their lives recently. Unfortunately in Donegal, on the west coast, we are only too accustomed to such tragedies. One cannot make any recommendation. It appears to be part of the unfortunate industry that these people must take such risks at times and go out in heavy seas. All those involved in the fishing industry are saddened by this loss.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute however briefly to the debate on these important Estimates to us in the west. I understand there are a number of speakers and I shall keep my comments as brief as possible. We all agree that the fishing industry have gone through a very difficult period in these past few years. Previous speakers in previous debates have outlined the causes of those difficulties. We had rising costs such as the increase in oil prices and also increases in other expenses. At the same time, the price of the product remained static and on some occasions was reduced. One can say that a new air of confidence is felt in the fishing industry at the moment. Matters have sorted themselves out and the trend is now in the other direction. The reduction in the price of oil and fuel in the past year has been a great help to the fishermen. There has also been a significant increase in the price of fish. Confidence is felt among the fishing community. As Deputy Gallagher said, there was a very good example of that in Killybegs a fortnight ago when the new vessel, Atlantic Challenge, docked there. The local people invested about £6 million in that boat. That is the kind of confidence we want to see in the fishing industry. There is great potential for employment, particularly in the west. Mention has been made of BIM. I regret that they no longer have money for boat building or for the purchasing of boats. There are many young people along the west coast who are willing to become involved in the fishing industry, but unfortunately the board can no longer finance them even though they get grants. The reason is that some of the allocation made to the board is already earmarked. One of the side effects is that there is always the danger that people cannot get finance from the board to purchase boats and therefore they will go abroad and purchase second-hand or older boats. That brings its own difficulties. I hope the Minister will have a look at this area. Perhaps money would be available in the future to facilitate anyone who wishes to purchase a boat or to maintain the boat he already has.

Mention was also made of processing. More emphasis should be placed on processing because it can create employment. In order to have a good solid processing industry there must be continuity of supply, especially in the area of white fish. We cannot depend on supply all the time. We are at the mercy of the weather and so on. I am glad to see that the fishermen are meeting this challenge. They are going further afield to make sure that the supply is regular and in order to keep the processors going. With regard to mackerel, for many years we have been depending on the Nigerian market. The political difficulties there over the last few years have brought instability into that market. We are left with stocks of mackerel. The repercussions are that it is now more difficult to get markets for mackerel. I hope funds will be available to BIM and to the people who are involved in processing and in the mackerel industry to find other markets in Europe, including eastern Europe.

Dog fish is being fished in the north west. Nearly 2,000 tonnes of this fish has been exported to the UK in the past year from one port in Donegal. This is a new type of export which had been discarded for many years. It is now processed in the United Kingdom and is eventually exported again to France and Italy. I suggest that there may be an opportunity for an Irish processor to become involved in processing this fish at home, thus creating much needed employment in the west.

Aquaculture is becoming more important. There are great possibilities and potential in this area, certainly in the creation of employment. A number of applications are being investigated in the Department at present. I hope that due care and consideration will be given to the rights of the traditional fishermen in the area. No installation should be licensed if it interferes with legal commercial fishing in that area. Any structures that are erected in order to facilitate these fish farms should not interfere with the navigation of boats or with anglers. I suggest that all licensed areas should be precisely marked and limited in size.

I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister of State that the synchrolift has been sanctioned and that in excess of £2 million has been made available this year to erect a synchrolift in Killybegs. It has been expected for a long time. We are now confident that work will commence shortly. It will be of great benefit to that port. There are a number of ports in Donegal. Deputy Gallagher referred to Burtonport where there is a great fleet. The Minister visited Burtonport earlier this year and he knows the difficulties that are being experienced by the fishermen who use that port. It needs to be dredged and extended. There was a serious accident there earlier this year when a boat sank alongside the pier. I hope something will be done to facilitate the fishermen there.

Landings in Bunbeg were in excess of one million tonnes in the last year. Two stages of the development there have already been carried out. I appeal to the Department of Fisheries or the Department of the Gaeltacht, whoever is responsible, that the third stage of that work should be continued and finished as soon as possible. Salmon fishing has also been mentioned. We are now coming into the salmon fishing season. We all know the difficulties experienced every year during the salmon season. This type of fishing has been carried out for many years. I regret that all the interested parties did not succeed in getting together outside the season when tempers were cool so that we could come up with some sort of rules and regulations which would be acceptable to everyone. In the report of the Oireachtas Committee on Public Expenditure, in regard to the fishing industry the point was made that it is very important that the co-operation of the traditional salmon fishermen would be forthcoming in any arrangements that are made. I would support that.

I would like to refer briefly to tourism which is another industry with great potential for the creation of employment. Over the last few years the Government have taken some definite steps to improve the tourist industry. In 1984 VAT on hotel accommodation was reduced to 10 per cent. In this year's budget I was delighted when it was announced that VAT on meals is also being reduced to 10 per cent from 1 July. The Irish Hoteliers Federation made an admission some months ago when they said that four years ago we were the highest taxed tourist industry in Europe but now as a result of Government measures we are the lowest.

Another handicap on the tourist industry during the last few years was the high rate of inflation. But with inflation down to between 3 per cent and 4 per cent it should be a great boost to the tourist industry and it should make us more competitive. I would also like to refer briefly to the forestry industry. There are vast tracts of land in every part of the country which are highly suitable for planting. It was envisaged to plant 25,000 acres in years gone by and if we could attain that target it would be an investment in the future.

I would like to say a few words about angling in and around the Dublin area. I wish to say a word of praise on the valuable work which is now being done by the many angling associations who promote and develop angling facilities in and around Dublin. These people have done some magnificent work to promote and develop angling with little or no State assistance. The huge potential in the Dublin area for the attraction of anglers has not been fully exploited or developed. The new fisheries authorities have a lot of work to do and I would urge the Central Fisheries Board and the regional board for the Dublin area in particular to publish a few brochures and guides to show tourists and locals the attractive fishing areas around the city where fishing can be enjoyed. They should also embark on a promotional drive to attract many visitors to the city. There are millions of such visitors from the UK who enjoy angling. We in Dublin are only getting a very small percentage of these.

It would be a good boost to tourism in the region if this business was tapped and tapped fully. Local anglers, especially young ones, have little or no information available regarding the facilities in the Dublin area. Many young anglers, in particular, would have no idea where they could fish in and around the capital city. Every type of fishing is available adjacent to the city. There is coarse angling and game fishing. Shore and deep sea fishing are also available within a few miles of the city. I doubt if very many people except those involved in angling clubs know exactly where and what the regulations are operating in these various areas. I want to compliment the Central Fisheries Board on their work to promote fishing on the canals. Much more of this work is desirable, especially around the city. I am aware of the potential which is there to develop such accessible fisheries especially suitable for young anglers in the Dublin city area. In some country areas classes in how to tie flies and other craft work of this nature have been organised. These are skills which are dying out and useful courses could be organised by AnCO and the fisheries board which would interest young people and take them off the streets. Such courses would be interesting and popular with young people and would develop an awareness of fisheries, wildlife and the environment.

I would also like to see more attention paid to this by the Central Fisheries Board, AnCO, development agencies and others. There is ample opportunity for interesting, imaginative and valuable schemes in the Dublin area. I would like to see something positive done especially for young interested anglers. Very little has been done to provide access to fishing for handicapped persons. Fishing is an ideal activity for some handicapped people. However, there are few facilities provided for them and scarcely any access has been provided for them to get to the good fishing stretches. The fisheries board dispose of hundreds of fishing rods each year which could be given out free to handicapped anglers to encourage them to take up fishing as a past-time.

I must refer to the present state of repair and facilities of the Dublin fish market. For years there has been ongoing discussion on the need to undertake major improvements in the market area. It is vitally important to develop and reconstruct the fish market. Handling and storage facilities must be vastly improved. I do not believe that the present location should be changed. It should be kept where it is in the heart of Dublin. I am satisfied that major investment is needed to modernise the market, improve standards and generally make the market an attractive and efficient centre. We must ensure that the unique character, the friendly atmosphere and the old traditions of the Dublin fish market are never lost. It would be a major tragedy if the heart and soul of the Dublin market was lost in modernising the general area. I firmly believe that it is possible to have a thriving, efficient and hygienic fish market in the inner city without losing the character and characters who make up the market. I would recommend that proper architectural advice be sought before any changes are undertaken. The Dublin fish market is part of our heritage and it is possible to utilise this very special area in an efficient manner through careful planning and development.

Down through the years it has been a noted area for visitors, particularly visitors to Dublin who wish in their tour of Dublin to see the famous old markets, both the fish and fruit markets. I would be very reluctant to see either of them moved out of the centre of the city. I hope to see some action taken in this area and due regard will be had in any development to the preservation and conservation of this historic part of Dublin's inner city. I will conclude by saying that the Dublin fish market is part of the old area of Dublin and we must ensure that, if we do not modernise it, we never lose the charm and character of this unique centre.

I would like to thank the Deputies who made time for me to get in on this Estimate. I have promised my colleague, Deputy Sheehan, that I will not delay and let him in as quickly as possible. I welcome this opportunity to say a few words about the Fisheries Estimate for 1986. Before doing so let me pay tribute to the excellent work of the former Minister for Fisheries, Deputy O'Toole, who during his three years in office contributed so much to the industry.

I would like to congratulate Deputy Liam Kavanagh on his appointment as Minister and Deputy Donnellan on his appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for fisheries. I wish both of them every success. I should like to thank the Minister of State for having visited Howth with me last week when he impressed the fishermen and others whom he met there. He spoke to them and, with his knowledge of fishing, assured them of their future in the Howth area. He spoke also to some of the boatmen there who wished to have a slipway and a pound provided for the protection of their boats. I am speaking of the people who are the sort of poor farmers of the fishing industry, the people with small boats who need that type of pound for their protection. I would ask the Minister to consider their request and to make a site available to the Howth Boat Club there. Naturally I am very pleased at the massive development there has been in the Howth area where £13 million has already been spent. This has now become one of the finest harbours in Europe. The fishing industry has now reached the £100 million mark and, with State aid, is forecast to increase further. It is pleasing to note that all parties in the Dáil are united in their intent to help in every possible way the development of the fishing industry. We have at least four major fishing harbours — Killybegs, Howth, Rossaveal and Castletownbere, capable of landing approximately £35 million worth of fish each year. Howth port lands in the region of £4 million worth of fish each year. I might suggest to the Minister that more fish processing factories be erected at the main ports as well as factories for the repair of boats, the repair of nets, the manufacture of boxes, engine repair units, storage and warehousing facilities, along with modern ice-making units. I should like the Minister to consider the provision of the fish auction hall in Howth. I know Deputy T. Leonard made a good case for retaining the facility in the inner city. But it costs Howth fishermen a considerable amount to transport their fish to the present auction hall. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to consider the provision of this facility in the Howth area.

Private enterprise should be encouraged to invest in such development projects. The Government should encourage such investment in the industry. I am certain that there is money available for this purpose. Indeed, I have been advised that a number of commercial banks are only awaiting Government encouragement to become involved in this type of investment. Successive Governments have blamed the lack of capital for the slow development of the industry. One might well ask: have they ever attempted to persuade private enterprise to link up with An Board Iascaigh Mhara in this regard? The Irish Federation of Marine Industries, through their spokesperson, Mr. Joseph O'Driscoll, have pointed out that the fishing industry could create 13,000 jobs on the processing and production side if the Government secured sufficient money from the banks and the investing public to build factories, recondition the present fleet and finance the purchase of a number of large trawlers located at the larger harbours. I know that some 350 jobs would be created in Howth if the Government sought the help of investors to develop the industrial estate there, where some 35,000 square feet of land lies undeveloped in the harbour.

An Bord Iascaigh Mhara should be completely reorganised. I might suggest that the Government act quickly on the report of the Committee on Public Expenditure dealing with State-support services to the fishing industry. An Bord Iascaigh Mhara should no longer be allowed to act as financiers for boat loans. They are not suited to that type of operation and have not sufficient funds at their disposal to deal adequately with it. Rather they should be obliged to operate as a marketing board on somewhat the same lines as An Bord Bainne. I agree that they should be involved also in the training of young fishermen and should engage in an intensive "Eat More Fish" campaign not alone on the home market but overseas. They should be in closer contact with bodies such as Córas Trach-tála in an endeavour to secure additional foreign markets.

We are told that total employment in the industry was estimated at 13,000 in 1985. Over the next five years we should aim to create 15,000 extra jobs, doubling the national output to £200 million. Our 10,000 fishermen are among the bravest of men, hard-working and absolutely competent, but they work in extremely difficult circumstances. The present system of lending them money requires immediate change and a longer period of repayment is essential. Better prices for fish must be secured in view of the ever-increasing operational costs. For example, nets and fishing gear are daily becoming more expensive.

One must seriously question the repossession of boats from defaulting fishermen. This does not constitute a solution to fishermen's financial problems. Perhaps a liquidator should be appointed or somebody from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to run the operation for a while, ascertaining whether they can be rescued in this manner. That would be of enormous help to fishermen with financial problems.

I disagree completely with the location of 90 per cent of the staff of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara in the Dún Laoghaire offices. It would be a help to fishermen to have full-time area officers in at least 20 ports. However, the fishermen at Howth are loud in their praise of the area officers who serve them. Very few fishermen can afford the time or money to visit the Dún Laoghaire offices. They complain about this. The Minister should examine that aspect. I should like to see An Bord Iascaigh Mhara establish modern fish shops all over the country, equipped with freezers, and leasing them to fish traders. Howth herrings, Dublin Bay prawns are well known worldwide, much the same as is Kerrygold butter. Let us create fish brands worldwide. Fish has become a much-desired food everywhere. Let us start now and within a short time we could have 28,000 workers in the industry and a vastly improved fishing economy.

Sílim nach bhfuil sé sásúil go mbeimís ag deileáil leis na trí meastacháin seo le chéile. Bheadh díos-póireacht i bhfad níos fearr againn, im thuairimse, dá dtógfaí gach ceann acu leis féin.

It is not entirely satisfactory that we should be debating three Estimates together. It would be much more satisfactory to take each separately, going through them in greater detail. It means also that Deputies have a limited time within which to make their views known.

I might start with Fisheries, which industry is in a serious state at present. Speaking with fishermen along our coasts, I have never experienced so much depression in the industry. It must be acknowledged that on the west coast we have had exceptionally bad weather which has meant that the fishing fleet has had a very limited time to get out to sea. Throughout most of the spring, except for a period when there was some frost, catches were very low. We must take into account the hardship fishermen have to endure and we must provide every facility necessary to keep the industry as viable as possible. Fishermen with small boats of up to 80 feet have serious problems.

Since we got away from herring fishing fishermen have not managed to adjust and they do not have the income to which they became accustomed in the past. Then they were able to meet their bills. It is strange when we talk about inshore fishing at present to note that the only fishing which has proved possible in the last few years is dogfish and crayfish. These were species which were thrown over board a few years ago. It is ironic that it is now possible to get as much as £25 a box for dogfish whereas herring would only fetch £8.

More money will have to be invested in the industry to help our fishermen compete with foreign fishermen. It is encouraging that so many people are prepared to invest heavily in larger boats which will form part of the fishing industry in the near future. The only fishermen who have made profits in recent years are those with boats of over 120 feet. The State will have to look again at the question of financing these operations. Employment could be generated at home through processing and so on. This would be worthwhile.

We will be faced with the question of quotas and how much fish we can catch. In 1975 we doubled our quota but to a certain extent it was a doubling of nothing because our quota was very low. We must ensure that provision is made for our developing industry and see to it that our quotas are increased.

The provision of £4.75 million for BIM speaks for itself. It is not adequate. It is next to impossible for anyone in the industry to get money to invest in a new boat. The money which has been allocated has already been committed. That is not satisfactory. Young people should be encouraged into the industry and adequate finance should be made available to them through BIM.

Marketing is an old chestnut of mine. While it is true that things have improved, the system which now operates has obtained for a number of years. For example, in my local co-operative most of the fish caught go to Dublin for auction. It means that once the fish leave Achill Sound the price they realise is outside of the control of the co-op. They have no guarantee that the fish will realise anything worthwhile. Fishermen tell me that prices have not improved as far as they are concerned, yet a person who buys fish in a shop will pay dearly for it. Some kind of organisation should be set up which would guarantee that fishermen will be properly treated.

There has been a lot of talk recently about drift net fishermen and the slaughter of salmon, but we never hear about what is happening in our rivers. There are fishing companies who have rights on our rivers. The salmon have no chance to escape. A net is put across the river, traps are used and so on, but no publicity is given to that. Everyone knows about the fisherman who risks his life on the high seas to catch a few salmon. The salmon on the high seas have every chance to escape, but the ones in the river have no chance of escape.

The position is serious in relation to lobster and crayfish. The use of tangle nets should be banned. Only a small amount of fish are taken in by the fishermen and two-thirds of them are destroyed or lost. Such nets have played havoc with crayfish in particular. There are no crayfish now in areas where they were once very plentiful. That is as a result of the use of these nets. Stocks of lobster are quite low. It is time that some type of conservation was embarked on.

It is necessary to improve many of our harbours, but the sum allocated for that work is not adequate. The fleet in my constituency is expanding but the facilities at Derby's Point are terrible. When fishermen from other parts of the country try to land it is chaotic. I find it hard to understand why plans which are prepared by co-ops or fishermen are altered by the Department and the Office of Public Works. The co-operation that is necessary is not forthcoming from the Department for such work. We are always told that there is not sufficient money, but plans submitted by local interests should be implemented over a five or ten year period rather than being altered.

We have to be careful about where we are going in regard to fish farming. The industry has a bright future, particularly when one considers what happened in Norway and other countries; but, if it is developed, I hope the interests of local people are taken into consideration. I hope development in that area by big investors is not to the detriment of individuals who live along the coast. Income from fish farming could supplement the income of small farmers. We should encourage development along those lines. I could say a lot more about this industry but I am anxious that Deputy Sheehan gets an opportunity to contribute.

I should like to thank Deputy Gallagher for giving me an opportunity to make a contribution on these Estimates and I am grateful to the Minister of State for giving me some of his time. More time should be allowed for debates on these Estimates. The sea is man's happy hunting ground. There are 30,000 different types of fish throughout the world. In the Far East people eat sword fish, octopus, squid and many other varieties. In Irish waters there are 40 different types of fish divided into three distinctive categories — demersal, pelagic and shell fish. The big Irish trawlers are crewed by 13 men who are on call 24 hours per day. Those men frequently clock up in excess of 1,000 working hours per week, averaging 80 hours per week for each member of the crew. It takes 40 mature oak trees to build a 70 ft. timber trawler.

Fishing was always treated as a cinderella industry here. Before we gained our independence Britain, as part of the fruits of being a conqueror, rented the Irish fishing grounds to Spain, France, Holland and Sweden. Tradition dies hard in those countries and for years Spanish trawlers marauded our fishing grounds along the western seaboard. In the eighteenth century a penal duty was imposed on imported salt with the result that the curing industry in Ireland ceased.

We should promote and extend the fishing industry and explore the European markets, particularly the German market, where there is great potential. We should develop and expand the aquaculture and mariculture industries. There is great potential for those industries. I was interested to hear Deputy Gallagher say that the price of a box of herrings was between £1.50 and £2 when a few years ago a box of herrings made £24. It is interesting to note that in the supermarkets on the Continent one can buy 1 lb. jars of marinated herrings, consisting of three herrings, at between £1.50 and £2 per jar. We should take a lead from that and build up our export of herring. The Germans sell herrings in beer, in brine, in cider, in tomato sauce and in wine in all supermarkets on the Continent. We must ask ourselves how it is that the Germans are able to flood the European market with their fish products and export further afield. We are not capitalising on that industry. It is well known that for every person engaged in fishing at sea there should be eight people engaged in fish processing on shore. We should pay more attention to the development of the industry.

I should like to pay tribute to the former Minister for Fisheries, Deputy O'Toole, who played an important part in the development of the fishing industry. During his term of office he sanctioned the £500,000 Schull pier project. I suggest that a modern ice plant and auction hall be erected at the pier. The road to the pier should be improved.

The dumping of fish into intervention by the EC is a disgrace when one considers the number of people who are starving in other parts of the world. I am amazed that a group of nations as powerful as the EC should operate such a nonsensical scheme. Why is it that the EC does not purchase surplus fish at a flat price and give it to the people who are dying from starvation in the Third World. It does not make sense to dump the best food available into the backwater to be dyed before being returned to the sea. We should introduce a conservation measure for our shellfish. We must protect the reproduction stock. With regard to salmon fishing, there should be dialogue between the Department and those concerned with salmon fishing. We should ensure that our fish stocks are preserved for future generations.

Since I was appointed Minister of State with special responsibility for fisheries I have done my best to acquaint myself with all aspects of the industry. When one considers that, as Deputy Sheehan has told us, there are 30,000 different types of fish in the world, one will realise that I have a long way to go. I do not know how many of these species are peculiar to this island. The number he mentioned is beyond my comprehension. I will have to have a talk with the Deputy to try to acquaint myself further with the fishing industry, particularly the fish.

In the short time I have been in the Department I have tried to meet as many people in the industry as I could. I met the chief executive, chairman and members of Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the chief executive and the chairman of the Central Fisheries Board, the managers of all the regional boards, the Irish Aquaculture Association, Údarás na Gaeltachta in regard to the aquaculture area, the Southern Inshore Fishermen's Association, the IFO twice, the Irish Fish Processors' and Exporters' Association, the Irish Estuary Salmon Net Fishermen's Association — they are the draught net people — the Ros an Mhíl Harbour Advisory Committee, the Western Region Eel Fishermen's Association, a deputation from Clare County Council in regard to the development of Dunbeg Harbour — Deputy Daly was on that deputation — and large numbers of people who wanted to talk to me about aquaculture licences. I paid visits to Ros an Mhíl, Killybegs, Burtonport, Dunbeg, Dunmore East and other centres and have plans to visit a number of other locations. I do not think that is too bad considering the short time I have been in the Department.

The Minister is great.

In his contribution the Deputy was critical of many things. It is a pity he did not mention that we are making £2 million available for the synchro-lift in Donegal. That is being done this year. It is the easiest thing in the world to be critical of what the Department do. Deputy Sheehan asked for proper dialogue between the Department and the fishermen. In the short time I have been in the Department I have seen no problem about dialogue: it is an open house, anybody can come into it with or without an appointment, there is no problem. According to Deputy Gallagher's remarks you would swear the end of the world was here. Most of his speech was about depression: we do not have big enough quotas, the £4.7 million to BIM is derisory; he talked about money; there is not enough money for harbour development or for marketing. The Deputy spoke about salmon fishermen. Which side is he on, or is he on any side?

The Minister is on all sides.

In the few minutes available to me I will tell the Deputy exactly whose side I am on. I wish the Deputy would declare his hand, and his interest as well. Do not for one moment think that I am questioning whether the Deputy has any financial interest in the industry.

The Minister would be wise.

In 1986 the total amount of money available for the industry is 8 per cent more than last year and that is an indication of the Government's commitment to the fishing industry. Last year exports yielded more than £100 million for fish and fish products. That also is an indication that the fishing industry is going somewhere — it is not all depression as some people are inclined to think. We have been hearing on television about a new body that might be formed and be as successful as other people may be at elections. They were not so successful in the last few years. This body is to be known as Roinn na Mara. I should like to know where did they get the name from. Was it something that was just plucked out of the air for a particular TV show? Linked to the new Roinn na Mara would be many other things that would overnight solve the problems that exist in the fishing industry. It is as well to get down to the fact that only a certain amount of money is available. During my time in office I will try to get more money from the Government for the fishing industry. I hope I will be successful particularly in 1987.

There is reference to the White Paper on the fishing industry. It will be produced before the end of this Dáil session. That is not an empty promise. Like other Deputies, I should like to express a welcome to the Atlantic Challenge. I am sorry I was unable to be present at its launching because I had a couple of other commitments, and I wish the people involved much luck. I hope others in the Irish fishing industry can see their way to invest in that kind of project. It was said there was no money from the State for it. Possibly that is a good thing: it is an indication that there must be a few pounds around in the fishing industry when people can spend £6 million on a boat. I would like to congratulate all those involved in it.

I agree with Deputy Daly about the exploitation of the waters around our coast. He said the fall in fuel prices had not been passed on to the fishermen. As far as I am aware, it has been passed on totally. Other Deputies, including Deputy Daly, spoke about our fish quotas. They said we have not adequate quotas from the total catch. I am informed that the only way we can increase the total take is to increase the total EC catch. Perhaps we should renegotiate the whole thing in order to get a bigger percentage of the total catch for Ireland.

Will the Minister do that?

I promise I will try. One way to expand our fishing is in the non-quota area. We should try to catch fish not affected by quotas because it will not be too long until the species now not governed by EC regulations will become subject to quotas. A number of Deputies referred to salmon fishing and the regulations governing it. These regulations were introduced by a Fianna Fáil Minister. The man who had most to do with it was Deputy Lenihan. He was a man of courage, but many of those now speaking on the industry have been speaking like Indians, with forked tongues — they are trying to keep on both sides.

That is what the Minister is doing now.

If Deputies want the facts about salmon fishing I will supply them. A number of people are using drift nets and they take 85 per cent of the total wild salmon catch. The total legal catch last year was 1,540 tonnes. A small number of drift net men took 85 per cent of that catch. The current salmon fishing season is in operation and I am sure there will be people who will not be entirely satisfied with the manner in which the protection staff will try to deal with our problems. The Department are trying to ensure that there will be a regeneration of the wild species by allowing enough salmon to get up our rivers. I am sure Deputies opposite will go along with that. Deputies will be aware that in the last couple of years fishermen used firearms, slash hooks, flares, iron bars and other weapons on the protection staff and I hope those men will control their ambitions and their tempers a little to ensure that the staff can do the job they set out to do.

I go along with the opinion of Deputy Daly and others that the way the Estimates have been dealt with is not the most satisfactory. Personally, I do not think the three Estimates should have been taken together. They should have been dealt with individually and adequate time should have been given to people to express their views.

Vote put and declared carried.
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