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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Jun 1986

Vol. 368 No. 2

British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) (Amendment) Bill, 1986: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The main thrust of my contribution in this debate is to indicate in the strongest manner my condemnation, in association with that of the people whom I represent in the Cork area and in the south-west generally, of the totally unacceptable decision by this semi-State body to withdraw their activities in the south-west via the port of Cork. We are being asked to approve further expenditure of £38 million additional equity for the B & I. In the aftermath of withdrawing a service from the port of Cork to the United Kingdom, we in the south-west very naturally have reservations about this volume of expenditure. The discontinued service was very valuable to the south-west and was an economical and socially needed link with the United Kingdom. I intend to reinforce my comments by quoting from reports I mentioned the previous day.

I have come to the conclusion that members of this Government believe the people of Cork do little through their public representatives but complain about what is happening in the region. They say we are doing nothing for ourselves but complaining. We have many complaints to make and there are many indications of the lack of concern by this Government as far as the Cork region is concerned. This is just another episode in the continuing saga of this Government's total disregard of the problems and needs in the Cork region and the south-west region as a whole. One Minister of State said recently that when the people of Cork get off their behinds and do something the Government will respond.

I intend to emphasise once again that there is an urgent need for a shipping link from the south-west to the United Kingdom and specifically from the new deep water berth at Ringaskiddy to Swansea. This link must be restored and any assistance needed must be given by the Government because they allowed the B & I to pull out of Cork.

The Government say the people of Cork should do something for themselves. Efforts have been made not just by the local authorities of Cork city and county but by the Kerry local authorities and various other bodies — tourist bodies, export groups, the taxi association and so on. They came together to impress on the Government the need for this link with the United Kingdom and to prove their point they commissioned two reports which I have no doubt are with the Minister and the Department. Hopefully they have read those reports and having analysed them, they must come to the same conclusion as the people of the south-west region, and that is, the urgent need for a ferry link with the United Kingdom. I have described the required ferry link — a service the B & I abandoned — as the emerald gateway. When we consider some of the material contained in the reports compiled at the request of the interested organisations and the local authorities in the Cork area, we must commend these bodies for their initiative and their effort to show the Government that there is need for this ferry link.

When we consider the competitive position of the B & I, it is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that that company's dash for growth in the late seventies paid inadequate regard to the cost of capital, efficient use of manpower and, above all, satisfying the customers. Despite massive investment — £110 million since 1965 — and the reported satisfactory performance of their freight service, the overall accomplishments of the company have changed from profitability in the 1974-78 period along the following lines: the profit in 1978 was £1.35 million but in 1979 there was a dramatic loss of £1.48 million; in 1980 a loss of £2.8 million; in 1981 a loss of £7.5 million; in 1982 a loss of £8.5 million; in 1983 a loss of £10.2 million; in 1984 a loss of £12 million; and in 1985 a dramatic loss of 400 jobs and a financial loss of £6 million; and an estimated loss in 1986 of £4 million. This eventually brought about the sale of vessels and the closure of routes, and indications are that further measures may be necessary.

In the not so distant past Sealink freight manager summed up the situation by commenting that the Irish Government's policy was to run the line for the benefit of the company's exporters and to promote tourism; that the B & I policy was to increase market share rather than make a profit but that financial consequences were forcing commercial realism and Ireland's severe economic problems suggested that Government support for these objectives had to be very limited in the future. How can we in the south-west region be expected to reconcile that sort of comment with the request in this Bill to provide £38 million in additional equity for B & I? Operationally the aim now seems to be to achieve much better utilisation of assets by route concentration, but the location of terminals on the southern Irish Sea coupled with customer resistance to such location leaves them extremely vulnerable to competition from larger sectors of the market, and here we see a total disregard for satisfying the customer.

We have noted that the trend in the ongoing development of B & I activity across the Irish Sea is primarily to adopt the shortest possible route for the operator. I do not see much wrong with that if the infrastructure to service those short route terminals is such as to encourage the customer in the widest sense to use a facility provided along those lines. The whole thrust of my contribution, not argumentative but arguing the point, is that the decision to leave the south-west coast without a ferry link to the UK is absolutely unacceptable. No doubt flows and seasonality are considerations amongst others and in considering what type of service is to be provided undoubtedly importance will be attached to the relative generation of business at either end and the seasonality of the flows. For that purpose, to strengthen our argument in the south-west region, and to compile support for this Government we sought the assistance — which we acknowledge — of the British tourist authority's digest of tourist statistics which gave the following indications.

In 1976, UK residents travelling to Ireland were 64 per cent and visitors to the UK from Ireland were 36 per cent. In 1978 the comparative figures were 61 per cent and 39 per cent; in 1980, 60 per cent and 40 per cent, and in 1981, 60.5 per cent and 39.5 per cent respectively. For the purpose of analysing the likely market available for a Cork-Swansea operation it is assumed, therefore, that 60 per cent of passengers and accompanying traffic are generated in Britain and the balance of 40 per cent is generated from the Irish Republic.

Analysis of the sea passenger movements in 1981 gives a good indication of seasonality of the sea passengers and, by the implication, the accompanying car movements. While 46.5 per cent of total movement takes place in the busiest months of the year, confined to about three months of high season, the peaking is not as severe as may be experienced on other routes and the levels of carryings in the spring, autumn and winter are all 20 per cent of the carryings in the peak months. Of course, within the busiest months further peaking will occur especially at weekends.

I have indicated in my previous contribution to this debate how important it was to have a facility like Cork-Swansea which had been used extensively for the short term visit to the UK, the weekend trip for people in this country who wished to visit their kith and kin in Britain and those from the other side who wish to pay a short visit to their homeland. In one fell swoop B & I switched from Swansea to Pembroke which meant the beginning of the end of that ferry service.

The origin and destination of passengers and their cars are a vital consideration in the debate on the essential decision to have this ferry link with the UK. Of crucial importance to the viability of a Cork-Swansea service is the size and share of the market it may reasonably hope to attain. This in turn depends on the time and cost which customers will incur in getting to our ports as opposed to competing ports. Another significant element I must continue to stress is the importance of our customers, our people, and the manner in which they have to get to the ferry ports on either side. That must be borne in mind right through the debate.

The transport infrastructure associated with Cork and Swansea, the roads in particular and the railways, is never inferior to that serving competitors. On the contrary, in most cases it is very much superior to that available to competitors and it is contended, therefore, that the distance based analysis is the most useful tool of assessment and will not overstate the advantage of the Cork-Swansea route since speed and quality of the journey are generally superior compared with competing routes. The south west region was accustomed for 160 years odd to a ferry link with the UK and it is absolutely essential for the economic life of that region that we have such a ferry link.

Another relevant, point is that the Swansea-Cork catchment tends to be considerably understated since Holyhead in practice acts effectively as an alternative to Liverpool but involves a substantially longer journey for the majority of passengers and travellers on these routes. The limited availability of sailings from and to Liverpool, with the requirement of sailing tickets for passengers via Liverpool at peak times, has the effect of forcing passengers to Holyhead; but, for purposes of our analysis, it is assumed that Liverpool is always an available option. In practice, of course, a significant number of travellers who find Liverpool unavailable may well choose Cork-Swansea as the alternative rather than Holyhead-Dublin. In every examination and analysis, the trend and emphasis is to divert travellers from the south, south-west and south-east to the east coast.

Apart from the points which I made in regard to the non-availability of the Cork-Swansea ferry service to which we became accustomed over the years and the diversion of travellers, Swansea-Cork is the best option. It was very difficult to understand the thinking behind the decision to allow the B & I to discontinue their connection from the southern port when no alternative was provided. As a result of the Cork-Swansea operation, there have been considerable savings in time and inland transport costs for passengers. The Minister, the Government and the B & I have disregarded the passengers in their assessment. They also disregarded the exporters in the south-west region who are faced with the transport costs of hauling container traffic right across the country. I was going to say from the Dingle Peninsula, but that would be incorrect because no road on the Dingle Peninsula would be capable of taking the multi-wheelers and the freight which we are accustomed to seeing on the roads of north Cork having come from Tralee or Listowel on through Mallow heading for Rosslare. I am not suggesting that Rosslare should not be a ferry port or that it should not have the availability of freight traffic through the port but it certainly does not make sense, as far as commercial life is concerned, that a link with the UK which was in Cork for 160 years, should have been discontinued.

I have no doubt that the south-east in its own right could adequately support the Rosslare ferry port and the adjoining counties but it does not make sense to require passenger and container traffic to do all this travelling on, for the most part, substandard roads until they reach the national primaries to take their produce across to the UK. Just imagine the extra cost to exporters. I sincerely hope that the decision makers have taken into account all the elements to which I referred and that they will support the initiative being taken in the south-west to provide this ferry and not to leave it too late.

The savings to passengers using a Swansea-Cork service as opposed to the next nearest service was calculated at £4.9 million in 1983. I am not suggesting that even the most sophisticated pricing structure could obtain the full benefit of that figure for the operator but it indicates that the Swansea-Cork service could operate at a significantly higher rate than competing services without losing a significant share of the available market. There is no doubt that the market exists although the operator, in conjunction with the travel trade, should determine the degree of price discrimination which can be successfully applied to the different segments of the market. The calculations to which I referred apply to basic fares and do not take account of further revenue which may be earned by the vessels in other ways, for example, on duty free goods. In that connection I must mention the fact that the B & I in their efforts to substantiate their decision indicated by a juggling of the figures— I am not suggesting that anybody was dishonest in this regard — that duty free goods in the Cork port was such a loss-maker that it was relevant to the decision of the B & I to discontinue the link from Cork. However, gift shops, restaurants, bars and the hire of reclining seats also provided money to balance the books.

I touched on the market for freight in addition to passengers and accompanying cars. The amount of freight which may be attracted is also crucial and could be of considerable importance to profitability, particularly at off-peak times. The peak period in the operation of the ferry is the three months in the summer. The market for freight through the port of Cork is available if the service is there for it. Freight traffic in the Irish Sea has been extensively reported on in the past and most operators are familiar with the basic pattern.

The freight connection with Cork goes back a long way. Apart from the monastic settlements the city of Cork and its hinterland developed around the port. Its coats of arms, Statio Bene Fida Carinis means well protected harbour for ships. It is unpalatable to the people in the south west, to the people in Cork, when people in authority, like the Government, allow this long established commercial sea link with Britain to be discontinued by an Irish semi-State company for which we are asked in this Bill to provide £38 million in additional equity. I am not saying that the B & I should not be supported as a service to our people. But this sticks in the throats of the people of Cork, the few who are still working and paying taxation. It sticks in the throats of those suffering the ravages of unemployment and paying indirect taxation out of their social welfare benefits.

It is interesting to note that 1978, the last full year of operation of the Swansea to Cork service, was a very profitable year with passenger round trips in thousands, 110; accompanied cars round trips in thousands, 24; freight tonnes in thousands, 51. With 260 round trips per annum the vessel serving that link could be fully loaded without bringing increased capacity to cater for the demand. The schedule takes no account of dry docking and assumes that seven round trips per week can be achieved for four continuous months. In practice such a schedule might be too demanding but capacity at peak times would clearly need to be maximised.

My contribution is an attempt to cover a very wide subject in a limited timescale. I am well aware that some simplifications and assumptions have to be made but it is to be hoped that these do not distort the essential facts. There has continually been caution in regard to the available market for a potential Swansea to Cork service. The facts support that concept. I am attempting to make a commercial case. I am presenting the facts as they are and no amount of propaganda will distort the facts. But feelings and emotions should not be ignored and if at times during this debate I have shown some feeling and some emotion I think I am justified in doing so.

I have shown that the link between Cork and the UK is viable particularly the route that paid its way and was a commercially proved success, that is, Cork to Swansea. It was a B & I decision which altered that link from Cork to Swansea to Cork to Pembroke, and that was the beginning of the end. The B & I must stand indicted for that mistake. On many occasions the commercial viability of the link, the social necessity for it and the economic reasons were pointed out by many deputations and delegations to Ministers of this Government. If one wants to throw them in, the proud feelings and the emotions we have shown clearly indicate our ongoing commitment to use every opportunity to ensure that the Government will help the initiative being taken by the local authorities and others in that region to restore a link with the United Kingdom. There is widespread dissatisfaction on both sides of the Irish Sea with existing services and strong feelings that an obvious link is being ignored. I fail to understand why the semi-State company and then the Government have failed to acknowledge this. Some of the dissatisfaction felt has been expressed by Deputies from other areas who have contributed to this debate.

My principal theme is the need for a UK link with the port of Cork. There is a fund of goodwill among a wide variety of organisations to support a Swansea-Cork service. I have mentioned the three local authorities, namely, Cork Corporation, Cork County Council and Kerry County Council, the tourist boards, the chambers of commerce, the trade associations — the list is extensive. Those which I have mentioned are just a sample of the groups who are willing to do all in their power to assist such a project and have assisted. Their willingness to do something for themselves has not been acknowledged by Government, with the exception of a subvention of £300,000 which I have acknowledged repeatedly. It must, however, be stated that the delay in approving that subvention operated to the detriment of the proper marketing of the service that we were endeavouring to introduce.

I accept that competition must not be under-rated. Existing operators undoubtedly will fight very hard to protect their businesses. The little assistance of £300,000 is a pittance by comparison with the £38 million talked about in this Bill and we realise that the operator assisted by the taxpayer will go into competition with the possible link from Ringaskiddy to the UK. They would be correct in fighting hard to protect their business all the more fiercely if they were to see that a new service is proving more viable and more attractive than their own. Any potential operator will have to face considerable hostility from those whom he aims to displace. One element of the competition with which a ferry link from Cork would have to contend is the provision of free transport from the city of Cork to passengers travelling through Rosslare, supported by the taxpayers' money. The operator would have on his side two port authorities who are extremely conscious of the need to get the politics as well as the economics right.

I am not so naive as to suggest that there is any profit without risk but the risk of losing this opportunity of a ferry link between Cork and the UK is much greater. On that statement hinges the whole case for such provision. It is unacceptable that there should be no link with the second city of the Republic, situated in the greatest tourist earning region of the country. The Government should be not be allowed to abrogate their responsibilities in this matter. They must respond to the initiative shown by the various groups of Cork people.

I understand that there are other speakers who wish to participate in this debate and it would be incorrect of me to take the lion's share of time.

No pun intended.

There is no pun intended.

Not only is Deputy Lyons taking the lion's share, but also the lioness's. He is gobbling the lot.

And the share of the cubs thrown in. I have dealt with the importance of this link to the economic life of the south-west region. The change in technology brought about the loss of traditional industries but we have at least one alternative which would create new industries founded on import substitution and provide jobs connected with tourism in the south-west region. We must ensure that we make progress along these lines because we need to create employment in that region. Surely, there need be no more emphasis placed on the need for a ferry link with the UK as a prerequisite? We already have a ferry link with Roscoff. We have always exported the produce of the huge agricultural hinterland of Cork through Cork port.

The possibilities are endless. This must be evident to the Government. If they do not provide the £38 million to the semi-state body at least they should acknowledge the efforts being made in that region to provide the ferry link. I have a strong case to make. I have put the emphasis on a ferry link for the port of Cork, but I have so much documentary evidence that I could quite easily use up the entire time allocated for this Bill. I realise that Cork is not Ireland, but it is a very significant part of it. I will not accept that attitude of the Government that Dublin is Ireland. As I indicated earlier, we persist in centralising everything, even the ferries, on the east coast. It is an insult to the people of Cork that the Taoiseach took the initiative to retain Bewleys coffee shops but to leave Egans to their own resources. The attitude is: what does it matter, it is in Cork.

The same attitude of this Government was evident in regard to the dockyard, the ferry and the alternative industries which were promised when Ministers went globe trotting at the closure of Fords and Dunlops. There is need for a change of attitude from this Government towards Cork and the south-west. It is exemplified by the need for the Government's support and commitment to the provision of a ferry link which is so essential as a life line and a means of resuscitating the Cork area which has been ravaged and damaged to an enormous degree. The people show by their efforts that they will not tolerate this present situation. I suggest that this Government show a response to the commitment and the desire of the people of Cork and the south-west to get up off their knees and do something for themselves. I no longer accept the attitude of the Government, which is one of absolute and total disregard for the Cork region.

As I have said, Dublin is not Ireland and neither is Cork. Some day we will have a united Ireland and then we may have Irish Shipping back on the Irish seas with the Irish Tricolour flying. That is on a national basis. The Government have allowed the devastation of the Cork area and this is more than depressing. We should be excused for the emotion which we show now and then because we are in such a state of economic devastation.

The longest contribution of the parliamentary year has been given by Deputy Lyons. It lasted almost three hours. As a Dublin Deputy who regularly visits Cork and who has a lot of Cork connections, I fully agree with him. There is no rationale or logic behind the refusal of the Government to organise a ferry into Cork. I would be very interested to hear today the logic behind it. When I visited Cork in my capacity as spokesman for Labour and the Public Service I met workers from Dunlop, Ford and Verolme Cork Dockyard. They always bring forward this argument. The tourist interests in Cork suffer from a loss of revenue because of the lack of a ferry. There is an obligation on the Minister to give a comprehensive reply to this debate.

I represent the Dublin area but I do not wish to discuss the Dublin port because our spokesman, Deputy Wilson, covered the main points at length. It will be debated again on Committee Stage. There is a great drive to revitalise Dublin port and to make it profitable. The workforce, whether B & I, Ports and Docks or any other groups working in the area, are trying extremely hard to bring business back and to change the whole environment. For a long time arguments have been put forward in this House regarding Dublin port and B & I about the various services on boats, catering enterprises and so on. Many agreements which were made were wrong. The taxpayer, and rightly so, has given a fairly substantial amount of money to try to bring B & I back to profitability and to maintain the jobs of the 1,400 or 1,500 workers in B & I.

Irish companies used bad practices in regard to catering. It is now dominated by British companies and they are getting the money. If people are just concerned with profitability, where they can get the cheapest deal, it can be a very short-sighted approach. To what extent was tendering given to Irish companies and how much negotiation went on with Irish companies? Who organised them? What is behind some of the other companies? I have a certain amount of information which we will use later on after the Minister's reply. We should get it up front who they are, what they are, how they got in, who negotiated with them, what is in it for them and what is in it for others. The House is the place for the Minister to give the details of who the directors are and what connections they have. They are questions which should be answered. Rather than having to drag it out we should hear it from the Minister today. I will await his reply and say no more about it now.

There is a substantial amount of money to be made. It is important that Irish companies are seen to get an opportunity. If they are not good enough, not big enough, not able to handle it, or if there is some other reason, let it be stated. To let it go is not acceptable. Other points were raised about the cartel arrangements and the improvement of the ferries and the service to the public. That remains to be seen. I am prepared to wait and see if it is another way of saving money, getting rid of jobs, streamlining enterprises, playing the profiteering game or whether it is a real improvement in service. That has to be proved. Hopefully, it will prove to be effective and efficient.

I would like to refer to section 2 of the Bill. Following the publication of the Government's White Paper, Towards Serving the Country Better, in the autumn of last year I noticed that in a number of Bills an attempt was made to take away the powers in the whole area of remuneration and conditions from the various semi-State companies and centralise them under the Department of the Public Service. On each Bill I raised——

For the Deputy's information the Minister intends to withdraw section 2 of the Bill.

That is very helpful and will shorten my contribution to a great degree. That is a major achievement and also effectively withdraws the section from the Government's White Paper which is what I have argued for in this House on several Bills recently. An important amendment such as this would have to be decided on by the Government. My colleagues will see this as an acceptance of the fact that the attempt to centralise conditions of pay under the Department of the Public Service or any relevant Department was entirely wrong. I accept the Minister of State's point and I will now be extremely brief because we have achieved a victory which we have endeavoured to achieve on other Bills. If that section was not amended, all the good faith which the Minister rightly spoke about in his speech would be lost. I presume, that is why it is being withdrawn.

People want to have a system of collective bargaining, house agreements and the traditions which have been built up over the decades in various semi-State companies. Section 2 of the Bill has been amended by the parliamentary draftsman. He is the person who is doing this rather than the Department. He has been instructed to do so as he is using precisely the same wording with just an odd phrase turned around. The section would wreck our system of industrial relations and make life impossible for the various personnel departments and managements of the semi-State companies concerned and Departments which are not directly involved in industrial relations, in this case, the Department of Communications and those involved in transport. Their job is not to solve industrial relations problems and neither is it the job of the Department of the Public Service. In reply to questions I put down recently to the Minister, Deputy Quinn, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, they said their brief is the Civil Service and they have an involvement through the Department of the Public Service with the Garda Síochána, the teachers and others, but do not interfere in semi-State companies.

Under sections 2 of this Bill it would have been entirely different. It follows what is in the Government's White Paper but that was never negotiated or agreed with the Department of the Public Service, not to mind anybody else. I am extremely glad to see that we have forced the withdrawal of this section. The management of B & I as well as the unions will be glad of that because it was not in the interests of either, in case anyone thinks I am arguing the case of the trade unions only. In the past year or two industrial relations have been very good. They have come through very traumatic times. There are now house agreements which can be adhered to and followed which served B & I well when they had difficulties. Many of these problems were not in the area of industrial relations. Many of the staff left the company quietly and the existing staff have continued to try to build up the company. This proves the point.

I am glad the Government are withdrawing this section. It will be taken by Fianna Fáil as a withdrawal of what is in the Government's White Paper. It can only be seen in that light. It is of real importance and I thank my colleague, Deputy Wilson, who fought it on Second Stage and put forward the arguments which I would have made today but for the Minister's announcement. This was a victory for Fianna Fáil, for sense and logic, for the trade unions and management. Hopefully, this will now lead to its withdrawal in a number of other Bills which are before the House.

I welcome the opportunity to make a contribution to this Bill. the purpose of this short Bill is to enable the Minister for Finance to provide up to £38 million in additional equity for the B & I company. I would like to refer back to 1982 when it was first mooted by B & I that they intended to discontinue this service. However, they acceded to the Government's request to operate the Cork service in the summer of 1983. According to the chairman's report, which is the latest available, the total cost borne by the company for the Cork-Swanses service was approximately £1.2 million. Included in these costs, caused by the delay in obtaining Government permission to suspend the service, was a contribution of £500,000 which left a net loss of £700,000.

The point I would like to make which has been made adequately already by previous speakers, in particular our spokesman, Deputy Wilson, and also by Deputy Lyons is that this service was the lifeline to the south west, in particular, Cork and Kerry where we have the best market for tourism. There is no doubt that the discontinuation of this service was a tremendous loss to the region. This has been proved. In 1983, the last year of the service, it was responsible for 100,000 visitors plus 20,000 cars coming into the region. This is the type of business we cannot afford to lose. I do not accept the figures given by B & I. I believe that in the years leading up to 1983 they ran down the service. They indicated in 1982, when they wanted to discontinue the service, that they wanted shorter routes due to their serious financial problems. It has been proved by various groups since— and the statistics have been provided— that it is possible to run a viable service within that region.

I am a member of a group representing Kerry County Council who were set up following that decision in 1983. They are a tremendous group made up of the Cork and Kerry local authority representatives, business people, hoteliers, etc. Much effort was put into it in order to secure an alternative ship. I am happy also that the Government had given that committee a commitment. Nonetheless, that group were frustrated at various times when they endeavoured to charter a ship. I am convinced that vested interests were responsible.

It is envisaged that the provision of an adequate service on the Cork-Swansea route—ten hours sailing—would necessitate a ship containing approximately 500 bays, with car space in excess of 200 units. We are informed that that would be a viable proposition. That committee has been on various deputations to Ministers over the past two years when, I must say, we were well received. I cannot understand why the B & I should be seeking extra funding while they turn the deaf ear to the efforts of this tremendous committee in the south-west to secure a ferry service into Cork. Indeed, I should thank Government Ministers based in Cork who have given weight to this effort.

It has been proved that as a result of the loss of that ferry service there has been a loss of 1,000 jobs in tourism over the last two years in that region. I am convinced that if the B & I undertook efforts to have a ferry service into Cork it would become a profitable proposition. The Government have indicated that they are prepared to subsidise such a service in view of its tremendous tourism potential for that region. It has already been proved that the tourism potential is tremendous not alone to the Cork and Kerry region but to the whole economy. It has been accepted by tourist interests also that transporting tourists into Rosslare, hoping to transfer them to the south-west region, is not possible because there does not exist the requisite infrastructure at present.

Many other points were made by the Chairman of the B & I in his statement accompanying the company's annual report of 1983. For example, it was pointed out that they intended to restructure their organisation over a period of years. It was obvious at that point that they intended dropping the ferry service into Cork. If we are to make progress in the Cork and Kerry region then the ferry link must be restored and updated. I have already said that its benefits and potential are tremendous. It would lead to the creation of many additional jobs, bringing additional financial benefit to the region, paying the way for further tourist development in that area.

I appeal to the Minister that he make it a condition of any future funding to the B & I that they restructure their programme, allowing for the provision of a ferry service into Cork. Independent statistics can be produced to confirm that that would be a viable proposition. I know that tourism is in a downward phase, hopefully a temporary one only. The Government have already shown their goodwill to that committee established in the south-west region. They should make it a condition that the B & I should come up with an alternative ferry service to the Cork region.

I decided to intervene in this debate because the Irish Continental Line Limited is going to tender at present, being disposed of by the liquidator via the banks of the Irish Shipping Ltd. group. The B & I company are involved in this, which is why I chose this occasion to make these few remarks. We should be quite clear about something— and it is very important that this point be got across within the next few days— Irish Continental Line Limited is a sound, profitable organisation linking Ireland, as it does, directly to the Continent. It is not a line that should be lightly tampered with. It is not a line that should be made the object of a quick liquidator's sale. Irish Continental Line Limited deserves better than that. One of the reasons I am speaking here this morning is to ask the Minister and his Department to consider very seriously the future of Irish Continental Line Limited, in particular, the prospect of its being purchased by the B & I.

There is a story in this morning's papers that B & I are interested in buying Irish Continental Line Limited. I am not enthusiastic about that prospect. I would seriously suggest to the Minister and his departmental officials who are hopefully listening to these few remarks, that they think very carefully before permitting B & I — and Government approval is necessary — to buy Irish Continental Line Limited. I am not at all enthusiastic about that prospect for reasons which I shall lay before the House.

The B & I have their own troubles, their own difficulties. They lost some £10,250,000 last year. Even with the £38 million being provided under the provisions of this Bill, the B & I are in no condition whatsoever to go out and buy Irish Continental Line Limited, a profitable organisation. If they do buy that line, they will do a few things to it. First, one could argue very strongly that, instead of sorting out their own problems, they would somehow visit those problems on the profitable line, which is ICL, and, within a couple of years, ICL could be in major difficulty. I suggest that the B & I go and sort out their own problems first before going to the marketplace with Irish taxpayers' money purchasing shipping companies making a few pounds. I seriously suggest to the Minister, through his Minister of State present, that he think seriously within the next few days before permitting a company that is losing money and experencing difficulties to jump in, tender and buy the Irish Continental Line Limited, perhaps getting that company into difficulty. If they want to do so, when they have their own house in order, so be it. But, for God's sake, do not let that happen now or it will only place the Irish Continental Line Limited in the same difficulties now being experienced by the B & I. It would be a sad day for this country if the Minister permitted that to happen.

There is something more sinister — and this is the place to raise this matter, not in a newspaper or anywhere else in the country — and it is this point. There is a story circulating in shipping circles in this city. Rightly or wrongly, from my work on the Joint Committee on State Sponsored Bodies, particularly my involvement in the Irish Shipping Limited inquiry, and even though I represent a constituency without a coastline, I have somehow managed to become some kind of a shipping guru within a short period, although the more I learned about it the more I realised I did not know. But I do know one thing, there has been a story circulating in this city in recent days that Sealink are behind the B and I bid to buy the Irish Continental Line Limited. I want to say to the Minister very distinctly, and put on the record of this House: would he please check very carefully before approving any B & I bid to buy the Irish Continental Line Limited? He should be very sure that Sealink are not behind that offer. He should be very sure that there is no deal between Sealink and B & I to put B & I up as a front so that the Government can tell the people that it is being bought by Irish interests when in fact it is being bought by a semi-State company, being bought by the B & I. I am putting this deliberately on the record of the House this morning. I want the Minister to check that Sealink are not behind that bid. The Minister should satisfy himself on that score and not tell this House a month or two hence that he was not warned about it. I am putting it on the record now so that, if it does happen, I can say to the Minister in a month's time: "I told you so, I warned you before it happened." I do not do that with any pleasure.

I shall table parliamentary questions on this in the months ahead in order to ascertain whether the Government have checked who is behind the B & I bid to buy Irish Continental Line Limited. I put that on the record very deliberately. The Minister can formally ask the board of B & I whether they have had any talks with Sealink with regard to fronting it, so that the Government can be satisfied that it is going to Irish interests. I know it is the Minister's hope that the ICL will be sold to Irish interests but it would thwart what he intends if the B & I had some handshake deal, as opposed to a written deal, in regard to fronting for Sealink. It would ultimately end up within 12 months in the ownership of Sealink or certainly being run and dictated to by Sealink. I have no problem about B & I owning it in the long term, if that is to be the case; but they should first put their house in order before being let near any other shipping company, particularly a company that is making money and doing well and whose personnel have a high morale. It would be commercial nonsense to allow such a company to be sucked in by a company which has yet to put its own house in order.

There are alternatives but I wonder whether they have been looked at. I do not know who else might bid to buy the Irish Continental Line. It is being sold because of the liquidation of Irish Shipping. ICL is owned by Oceanbank Developments in which Irish Shipping — now the liquidator — hold 75 per cent and Allied Irish Banks hold 25 per cent. If the B & I were to buy this company AIB would be bought out to the extent of 25 per cent by the Irish Government via B & I. Is it the Minister's intention to buy out Allied Irish Banks? I would suggest that Allied Irish Banks should be kept in the arrangement. They are a good partner and if they own 25 per cent of the company, so be it. We should ask them to stay there. They are a useful partner with financial banking and some expertise. Why use taxpayers' money to buy out a bank's 25 per cent shareholding in a shipping company? It is commercial nonsense. I would ask the Minister to consider this point before he allows any sale to go through.

There may be other ways. It is a profitable line which has good morale. The National Development Corporation have £7.5 million. Perhaps they could lead a consortium with Allied Irish Banks and other Irish shipping interests. There could be a very solid company with a high morale, being left to run its own house without B & I sitting on top of them. Has anybody considered that alternative? I will table some questions in a few months' time to inquire whether the Department have formally looked at this proposal.

There is a statement in this morning's paper from a B & I spokesman which suggests that if B & I buy the line there will be a full integration. I wonder if it is wise to have full integration between companies which are running services to different countries. One company is trying to get itself sorted out and the other company is doing extraordinarly well. In my view it makes more sense commercially to keep them apart for the moment and see how they get on before fully integrating them. The small profit of ICL would be mixed in with the large loss of B & I and the overall loss figure for the year would wreck morale in ICL. I would be very worried about that.

I ask the House to consider who is behind the B & I offer. Is it Sealink? I ask the Minister to consider the role of Allied Irish Banks. Why should the State buy out a bank? If the Minister does not accept the solid commercial reasons I have given, let me put forward a clear marketing reason to which his Department may not have given any thought. It is not my role to attack Departments as such. However, I was a member of the All-Party Committee and on a reading of the minutes of evidence of our inquiry into Irish Shipping I think the Department would admit that they had a lot to learn about Irish Shipping and about shipping generally. It came out in our report that the Department of Communications did not make the necessary inquiries, did not know that charter agreements were being entered into and did not have shipping experts on their staff. I would venture to say that they learned more about shipping in the past six months than they had ever known before. I do not have much confidence in the Department led by the Minister in regard to their knowledge of shipping. It is evident in the report that, while they were interested in other forms of transport, their knowledge of shipping left a lot to be desired. A cursory reading of our report on Irish Shipping will make this quite clear.

There is one other reason why ICL and B & I should be kept apart for the moment. There is a clear conflict of interest. The job of the ICL is to ferry people to the Continent. The job of B & I is to ferry people to Britain who may be going on to the Continent. If they are amalgamated, which side of the coin will win? Will we ferry people via England to the Continent or will we ferry people directly to the Continent? If B & I and Sealink have some pally deal, they may win out and everybody going to the Continent in the years ahead will be travelling overland across England to facilitate B & I and Sealink. That would be the death knell of ICL. There is a strong marketing reason why such an amalgamation would be lunacy in the present context.

I have intervened very specifically to ask the Government not to approve the sale of ICL to B & I if the matter comes before them. I also ask that they should investigate the allegations and the suggestions I have made this morning in regard to what is going on. Much is going on that does not meet the eye and I suggest that the Government should get to the bottom of it in the interests of this country before they put their name to any easy deal in regard to the sale of a very fine shipping line.

I thank Deputies for their contributions today and last Wednesday to this debate. A number of aspects of B & I's affairs were touched on and I will respond to the various points made.

Deputy Wilson referred to the agreement between B & I and Sealink and described it as a cosy arrangement tantamount to a cartel. A number of other Deputies also expressed concern about the agreement and its impact on competition and services on the Irish Sea. For many year the Irish Sea has been the scene of cut-throat competition between B & I and Sealink. Both companies lost substantial sums of money and this resulted in the lowering of standards and poor service to the travelling public. Because of the price war, B & I found it necessary to hold down fares although they needed to increase them in real terms to cover overheads and capital costs. The net result of the unrestrained competition between the two shipping companies for market share was to cost the Irish taxpayer a lot of money. This all-out competition between the two companies could not have continued much longer. It would have resulted in continuing losses for and B & I, which could have endangered the company's future. The Exchequer and the taxpayer could not have continued to carry the substantial losses which the company were incurring.

The two companies decided, therefore, to rationalise their operations in order to achieve more efficient utilisation of assets while providing a better overall service. These arrangements are quite commonplace and, indeed, in the freight sector they are an important factor in the stability of international sea transport. While the Minister for Communications would be concerned if the companies should combine to abuse their position on the Irish Sea, I do not see this as likely. In any event the Minister will be monitoring the situation and he will have due regard to the interests of users of the cross-Channel services. The EC Commission are examining the implications of the agreement with Sealink but I do not expect that there will be any problem about the agreement.

Deputy Wilson and some other Deputies referred to the increase in B & I's fares this year. I have already referred to the fact that for several years B & I's fares were kept at depressed levels because on the price war with Sealink. Inevitably fares had to rise if the company was to be resorted to viability. Let us look at what this year's increases represent.

The overall year round fares increase is about 8 per cent; for 327 days of the year the increase is 10 per cent maximum. For the remaining 38 days, a 15 per cent increase has been applied to certain peak season sailings. For these higher fares, which as I have said are necessary if the company is to be restored to viability, users of B & I services can look forward to much improved standards of service and facilities on the company's car ferries. Moreover, fares on B & I car ferries are not out of line with the rates per mile charged on a number of the most popular routes on the Channel. Deputies cannot have it both ways. They cannot on the one hand insist on the company operating to commercial standards and without reliance on the Exchequer beyond the support which the Government have already pledged and on the other hand say that the company must not raise its fares to a realistic level.

As regards fears of lack of competition on the Irish Sea, to which many Deputies have referred, it must be borne in mind that Ireland has always operated an open ports policy and will continue to do so. Any shipping company is free to provide services to and from our ports. One should not overlook either the real competition which exists between the sea and air transport service.

Deputies have asked about B & I's freight business. The restructuring plan will improve the company's freight operations, in that the manning and other overheads cost reductions being implemented apply to all the company's operations including freight. B & I are, however, carrying out a detailed review of their freight operations, which form an important part of the company's overall business. Freight has not been performing too well in recent years and it is management's intention to do everything possible to restore the freight business to profitability also.

Deputies Wilson and Ahern referred to the facility at Pembroke and B & I's obligations in this regard. The company has an agreement with Pembroke Docks which continues until 1993. It is a matter for the company to decide how to deal with this situation, but I understand that for the time being they propose to retain their rights under the agreement. Apart from other considerations, in this way the company will not have to face an immediate claim for the full sum due under the agreement. This would amount to about £8 million. I understand that the Pembroke authorities are seeking an alternative user of the facilities which, if successful, would reduce the financial burden of the existing agreement on B & I.

Deputy Wilson asked about a possible move of B & I ferry services from Dublin Port to Dún Laoghaire. The company has postponed a decision in this matter until after the 1986 summer season. If the company should approach the Minister with a proposal to move to Dún Laoghaire the Minister would have to consider the matter very carefully in consultation with the various interests for whom any such move would have implications. Because of the serious policy considerations involved, I could not anticipate what the Minister's eventual attitude might be. The same applies to the suggestion of a joint B & I-Sealink ferry terminal at Dublin Port, to which Deputy Andrews referred. A copy of the preliminary report on that question prepared for the Dublin Port and Docks Board has been furnished to the Department of Communications but I understand that no substantive proposal has been made in the matter.

A number of Deputies queried the use by B & I of overseas contractors on the vessels. In fact the catering concession on the company's car ferries is held by an Irish company, Campbell Catering of Swords, County Dublin. A British firm, Allders, operate the duty free shops. B & I consider that specialist contractors can perform these tasks more economically and efficently, thus providing an improved service to customers. This is a common procedure in shipping companies. Indeed a somewhat similar arrangement was made by Aer Rianta at Dublin Airport where the catering concession is held by SAS.

The report that Allders are discriminating against Irish goods is a myth. B & I have assured the Minister that, far from harming the sales of Irish goods on board B & I vessels, the new arrangements will promote such sales to a much greater degree than formerly. There is no question of any discrimination against Irish goods. In fact most sales on board B & I vessels are Irish goods and the greatest demand is for these goods. I understand that B & I have had discussions with the main Irish manufacturers about the duty free shops concessions with a view to ensuring the optimum involvement of Irish manufacturers.

Some Deputies asked about the duration of the agreement between B & I and Sealink. The agreement is for the years 1986 and 1987, and under the agreement B & I will have a 50 per cent share of the Irish Sea car ferry revenue compared to 44 per cent in 1985.

Does that include Dublin-Liverpool?

Yes, it does.

Even though Sealink do not have a vessel on that route?

As far as I am aware, it includes Dublin-Liverpool.

Deputy Wilson referred to the joint B & I-Sealink service on the Rosslare-Fishguard route, which it is planned will be operated by a single Sealink vessel, and speculated that Sealink at some stage may decide to close down that service. Both B & I and Sealink, however, consider that the operation of a suitable single vessel will ensure the viability of that joint service. Furthermore, there is no reason why these arrangements, when fully implemented, should not continue and B & I have no alternative plans at present.

Deputy Wilson and other Deputies referred to complaints that B & I discriminate against Irish hauliers in the interests of the company's own door-to-door services. The Minister has been assured by B & I that no such discrimination exists. B & I have indicated that they have been working very successfully with the Irish road haulage industry over the last number of years to such an extent that the company now carry a 40 per cent share of the units shipped by Irish hauliers across the Irish Sea. A considerable number of the largest Irish hauliers now avail themselves of B & I services.

B & I not only provide a service across the Irish Sea with their own vessels: they also provide a very competitive rates structure across the English Channel for Irish hauliers travelling to the Continent, through their arrangements with a number of ferry operators. These arrangements provide the Irish haulier with the maximum range of services across the Channel at rates which he could not negotiate if he were dependent on his own traffic levels.

B & I provide freight space for road haulier vehicles on all their sailings, even during the height of the peak tourist demand, and in fact on the company's car ferry sailings they give priority to road hauliers' vehicles.

Deputies asked about B & I's results for 1984 and 1985 and about the delay in the B & I's presentation of the 1984 accounts in particular. I understand that the board of B & I felt it necessary to await the Government's decision on the company's restructuring proposals before holding the annual general meeting for 1984. I also understand that B & I intend to hold their 1984 and 1985 annual general meetings and to release their accounts for those years within a matter of weeks.

The company's trading losses for 1984 were approximately £9 million and for 1985 were approximately £7 million. The company's net losses will be larger for those years, however, because of the need to provide for the costs and write-offs associated with the restructuring of the company. These details will be available when the Minister presents the B & I's accounts to the Oireachtas.

Questions were raised about the level of borrowing by B & I. Details of the company's borrowings will be revealed in the company's 1985 accounts, but I understand that they stood at approximately £44 million at the end of 1985. The Exchequer injections in 1987, 1988 and 1989 will help to reduce this very high level of borrowing to an acceptable commercial level.

Deputies asked about B & I's expected 1986 performance. The current year will be a year of transition for the company as the various elements of the restructuring plan are implemented, and the company will continue to be loss-making. As the Minister of State indicated in his opening remarks, the company are required to produce a profit, although a small one, in 1987. Some Deputies asked for information about the profit targets which the Minister has set for the B & I. They are as follows: 1987, £0.5 million; 1988, £1 million; and 1989, £2 million.

These targets may appear small at first sight but I would remind Deputies that they must be judged against B & I's losses which, between 1980 and 1984 amounted to £43 million before the costs and write-offs associated with the restructuring of the company. In the absence of Government support and other remedial measures, B & I would have been likely to incur losses of the order of £10 million per annum. Against that background, the profit targets are difficult but achievable.

In passing, I might mention that the preparation of targets is an integral part of the whole corporate planning-departmental monitoring process which was recently introduced for all semi-State bodies for which the Minister for Communications is responsible.

Deputy O'Malley referred to the Irish Shipping collapse. As Deputies are aware, the decisions which led to that collapse were taken by the company without the knowledge or consent of the Minister at the time or indeed of the Department. Over the past two years the Department have established a monitoring system for all their semi-State bodies under which regular financial reports are submitted and analysed. The Department's staff resources have been strengthened, and for the past two years they have had the services of a chartered accountant. They also have their own economists.

Is the Minister asserting that the Government were not informed about decisions in Irish Shipping before the collapse?

I said that neither the Minister nor the Government were informed of some decisions made by Irish Shipping.

To my knowledge, that is the first time the House has been informed of this.

Deputies Wilson and B. Ahern queried the adequacy of the train connections at Holyhead for B & I services. I understand that, following discussions with British Rail, progress has been made in relation to the scheduling of train connections to both B & I and Sealink's services and that it is B & I's intention to pursue further improvements in this area. In this regard, it should be noted that since B & I moved to Fishguard, considerable improvements in rail connections have been achieved. There were no rail connections to Pembroke.

Deputies Wilson and Ahern raised the question of the future of ICL, with particular reference to the possibility of its acquisition by B & I. Deputy Wilson wanted to know whether any of the £38 million had been earmarked for this purpose. I can tell Deputy Wilson that the answer to the latter question is in the negative.

As Deputies are aware, ICL is effectively owned by the liquidator of Irish Shipping Limited and Allied Irish Banks. The Minister on a recent occasion in this House indicated that he would take every step possible to ensure the continuation of the direct ferry link between Ireland and Europe, because of the importance of that link, which we would all acknowledge. The Minister is aware of B & I's interest in this matter. If the company make a concrete proposal to him for the acquisition of ICL, then of course any such proposal will be considered on its merits. It would, however, not be appropriate for me to speculate about what the Minister's decision might be. I understand that B & I have not expressed any interest in acquiring Belfast Car Ferries. This question was raised by Deputy Wilson.

Deputy Wilson inquired about the position of Zeus Management Limited. The Minister for Communications explained the position about Zeus in detail in the course of a statement to this House on 3 May, 1985. He indicated that Zeus had been engaged by him in April 1985 to carry out a review of the business and operations of B & I and, taking account of the need to maintain Irish participation in cross-Channel passengers and freight services, to identify the measures necessary to restore the company to profitability. The Zeus assignment is for a three year period and includes the provision of a management service for B & I As explained by the Minister, that aspect of the arrangement devolved on Mr. Alex Spain, who took up the position of Chairman and Managing Director of B & I with effect from 6 May 1985.

Proposals for the restructuring of B & I were worked out by Mr. Spain, in consultation with the management of B & I in the light of the review work undertaken and submitted to the board of B & I for approval. The board in turn submitted proposals to the Minister in the matter.

The Department of Communications pay for the services of Zeus and recover from B & I an amount equivalent to the salary payable to the Chairman and Managing Director.

Several Deputies, including Deputies Lyons, Allen and Wilson, referred to the absence of a Cork-Wales ferry service. The Minister has always recognised the desirability of having a commercially viable cross-channel ferry service operating from Cork. As Deputies are aware, repeated efforts in recent years to provide such a service have been unsuccessful, despite State financial assistance being available. In 1984 and 1985 a subsidy of up to £500,000 from the Exchequer was available, while in 1986 a starting up grant of £300,000 was made available. In the Minister's view a Cork/Wales service remains a matter for local interests to pursue if they so wish.

I should like to repeat a point in reference to Deputy Bertie Ahern's contribution. Having refelected on the matter, the Minister has decided not to proceed with section 2 of the Bill and he will be proposing its deletion on Committee Stage.

I had an amendment down to delete section 2. I asked about consultants employed either through or on behalf of Zeus Investment and B & I, and a report as to the feasibility of desirability of the purchase of ICL by B & I. I have not been given an indication of whether such consultants were employed, or what their advice was.

No Consultants were engaged by the Minister in relation to ICL.

Or by B & I, to the knowledge of the Minister?

Yes, that is correct.

Will the Minister have the allegations I made this morning investigated and, secondly, will he consider the alternatives I have suggested before a decision is taken with regard to the disposal of the Irish Continental Line?

I thought the Deputy made a very interesting contribution and the points made by him will be investigated by the Minister.

Before a decision is taken?

I thought I had made a strong case for a ferry link from Cork but the Minister made only a brief reference to it in his concluding speech. Will he state if that is the total we can expect from him or the Government in relation to the demand we have made for Government intervention for the provision of a ferry service? Will the Minister not request the semi-State organisation to restore the ferry link from Cork to Britain? He gave only a brief reply to the case made by me and by other speakers. Have the Government any intention of addressing this problem in a serious way? Are they considering telling the B & I to restore the ferry link between Cork and the UK?

The Government are always considering such matters, and I presume B & I do the same. As I stated in my reply, it is up to interests in that area to proceed in whatever direction they see fit.

I raised the question of the publication recently of a proposal by the Dublin Port and Docks Board for a unified ferry terminal in Dublin port. I asked the Minister if he was aware of the existence of such a document and of the proposal in it to remove Sealink from Dún Laoghaire? I further suggested that if there is to be a unified ferry terminal it should be situated in Dún Laoghaire harbour, probably one of the finest harbours in Europe. It is a beautiful harbour to approach but unfortunately people have to leave from that harbour for reasons that are not always the happiest. I am asking the Minister if he is aware of the proposal by the Dublin Port and Docks Board and I am telling him we are resisting the proposals in the document referred to and, secondly, if there is to be a unified ferry terminal, why not have it in Dún Laoghaire? Why must Dún Laoghaire always be treated as secondclass in the context of the greater Dublin urban area?

I have already replied to that and I have set out the position.

I have been attending to something else in the Chamber and I may have missed what the Minister said in connection with the matter. I would appreciate it if he would repeat the statement. However, if it does not suit him to do that let him say so: I can always read it in the Official Report.

The company have postponed a decision on this matter until after the 1986 summer season. I take it the Deputy is talking about the unified ferry terminal?

Yes, I am talking about the proposal in a document recently published by the Dublin Port and Docks Board.

If the company come to the Minister with a proposal to move to Dún Laoighaire, the Minister would have to consider the matter very carefully in consultation with the various interests for whom any such move would have implications. Because of the serious policy considerations involved, I cannot anticipate what might be the Minister's eventual attitude. The same applies to the suggestion of a joint B & I-Sealink ferry terminal at Dublin port to which the Deputy has referred. A copy of a preliminary report on that question prepared for the Dublin Port and Docks Board has been furnished to the Department of Communications but I understand a substantive proposal has not yet been made on the matter. In regard to the question asked earlier by Deputy Wilson, the B & I may have engaged consultants directly to advise on certain aspects of the acquisition of ICL.

That is what I wanted to get at but did not succeed.

Question put and agreed to.
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