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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Nov 1986

Vol. 369 No. 7

Supplementary Estimates, 1986. - Vote 50: Energy.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Energy, including certain services administered by that office, and for payment of certain loans, subsidies, grants and grants-in-aid.

I have, on previous occasions, indicated to the House the need to provide extra resources for the Nuclear Energy Board in the current year. Since Chernobyl, the demands on the NEB's monitoring services have continued to expand at a dramatic rate in the following areas which, prior to Chernobyl, required no monitoring at all:

(a) import of foodstuffs,

(b) domestic foodstuffs,

(c) exports,

(d) beef, lamb, dairy products and cereals going into intervention.

As the board were no longer in a position to meet demands on the basis of their existing staff and equipment and in order to protect the health of the Irish people and to meet the requirements of the agricultural export market, the board were authorised by the Government to acquire additional staffing and equipment. They were also instructed to proceed with plans for alternative premises and a new laboratory to overcome the serious lack of laboratory and staff facilities.

The supplementary sum required for the funding of these additional resources is £427,000 and, since this amount can be found within my Department's Vote from additional receipts of £80,000 and by the use of savings in Subhead P. FEOGA — Western Aid Electrification Scheme, only a token Estimate of £1,000 is necessary.

All the additional receipts arise from the operations of my Department in the petroleum and minerals exploration sector.

The saving of £346,000 in Subhead P arises from the fact that the full allocation of £1.43 million provided for in the original Estimate will not be spent in the current year. Because of the nature of the scheme, precise estimation of the amount required in any particular year is extremely difficult since it is impossible to gauge exactly the number of prospective applicants in the year. I would like to make it clear, however, that there is no question of reducing the overall amount of £12.76 million which will be made available from this Department's Vote to the scheme over its lifetime. Deputies will note there is a consequential reduction in EC receipts now estimated for the current year but, as in the case of the money voted by the Dáil for this Department, there will be no reduction in the amount of £6.38 million which the EC is prepared to make available for this scheme over its lifespan.

I recommend this Supplementary Estimate to the House.

I accept and support this token Estimate for £1,000. I am glad to see the Minister has managed to make some savings along the way. We on this side of the House welcome any additional expenditure or resources placed at the disposal of the Nuclear Energy Board to discharge their duties. We have all learned the lesson of Chernobyl. There are heavy calls on the resources of the Nuclear Energy Board to give additional certification for agricultural purposes which are very necessary when we remember the threats made against it when some of our competitors in South America tried to use our situation to give us a bad name on our export markets. We all realise how important our agricultural exports are to the economy and so we are only too delighted to support any additional resources for them.

Has any progress been made at European level in regard to the setting up of a European inspectorate to monitor safety standards at Sellafield? The situation there cannot be mentioned often enough. When the disaster at Chernobyl happened, the dangers even at 1,500 miles were brought home to us. Let us contemplate for a moment what might happen if a similar situation occurred at Sellafield. I hope the Minister will be able to give us some idea as to what progress he is making at European or international level in regard to that inspectorate. I recall reading that the subject was taken off the agenda at the Council of Ministers meeting last June. I would like the Minister to let us know if it is on the agenda for the meeting to be held later this month.

We are all too well aware that the plant at Sellafield is part of the same family and age group as Chernobyl. It is 30 years old. Irrespective of the standards of maintenance, supervision or otherwise, undoubtedly when a plant gets to that age there will be problems with maintenance, there will be leaks, there will be disasters, and some day it will be too late. That is why I renew the call from this side of the House that the Government should realise that that plant is of the same family and because of its age and the notoriously bad record of the British nuclear energy industry in managing it. with one disaster after another, one leak after another, there is justification in calling on the British Government to do something about it. Our experience over many years has been of cover-ups and not enough information coming through. That has improved somewhat in recent times, but we are still at their mercy in regard to getting information. Because of the age of this plant, because of the ongoing danger to the environment and the health of our own people, I am renewing my call to take this matter up.

I recognise it is not a simple matter. We have to be seen to ask first but this Government have not taken that first step yet of asking the British Government about this matter in response to the genuine fears of the Irish people for their health and environment. We are a small island. If anything like that should happen, then the problems we have today in our economy would certainly look very small in relation to the problems we would face then.

I want to take this opportunity to refer to some other items on energy. My colleague, Deputy Kitt, will be dealing with aspects he has a special interest in, such as FEOGA and Bord na Móna, so I will not dwell on those areas.

One area I want to discuss is the ongoing crisis and saga of the Dublin Gas Company. It is never-ending.

On a point of order, as the Deputy refers to broad areas of my Department, I refer him to Standing Order No. 124.

I was about to draw the Deputy's attention to the fact that the debate is confined to items for which money is sought in the Supplementary Estimate.

I submit that in this crisis Dublin Gas seeks money from the Vote of the Department directly and indirectly, and because we have only a token Estimate here I have to submit that nobody knows at this stage where that Estimate will finish. I have a few specific things to mention and they are relative to the Supplementary Estimate. I would ask the Chair to bear that in mind.

Standing Order No. 124 reads as follows:

In the discussion of a supplementary Estimate the debate shall be confined to the Items constituting the same, and no discussion may be raised on the original Estimate save in so far as it may be necessary to explain or illustrate the particular Items under discussion.

I am bound by that.

This is only a token Estimate of £1,000. There are savings in many areas. More money will be required at the end of the year. I want to be cooperative about this Estimate. I am not going to oppose it, but I want to take the opportunity of asking the Minister where moneys will arise between now and the end of the year. It is enough for him to come in here and shake his head and try to sidestep. These are just a few issues. If you do not want to do it there is no point in having discussions on Estimates at all.

There is no point in the Deputy saying we are not going to do it. It is not what anybody wants to do.

Will the Chair name out issues I can discuss on this Supplementary Estimate?

The Deputy has it before him and he can raise anything that arises under additional receipts or deficiencies as outlined there and that is all. It may be frustrating from the Deputy's point of view. Nobody bothers about these Standing Orders, as to whether they should be amended, extended or scrapped, until such time as they are sought to be applied here and then they want to change them instanter.

I have no intention of trying to change Standing Orders. I am talking about additional receipts and where they will come from. Where will the additional expenditure be spent? Where is this money coming from?

It is spelled out under the Minerals Development Act, 1940, and——

I am talking about gas.

——the Petroleum and Other Minerals Development Act, 1960, and funds provided by certain holders of exclusive offshore Petroleum licences for training education of Irish personnel.

I submit that as regards receipts in the minerals areas, gas receipts are included and, therefore, I am not outside the scope of this Supplementary Estimate.

The mineral receipts to which the Deputy referred are receipts under the Minerals Development Act, 1940. As far as An Bord Gáis are concerned, no money is being provided for that company and there are no savings from them.

I did not say that. I referred to additional receipts in the area of gas, and I submit I am entitled to talk about them.

Additional receipts is the heading but if the Deputy looks he will see that the figures are spelled out under subheads Q.3 and Q.8. If the Deputy is opening up the discussion to include An Bord Gáis——

I intend to talk about gas receipts, and I submit that I am entitled to talk about them under this Supplementary Estimate.

On a point of order——

We cannot have more than one point of order at the same time. Are there any receipts from An Bord Gáis?

No. The elements of this Supplementary Estimate are as follows. The first is from the minerals division in licences, the second deals with petroleum leasings and the third is in relation to the FEOGA western aid electrification scheme. There is no mention of or bearing on gas receipts in the context of this Supplementary Estimate.

What does "Grant-in-aid for general expenditure" cover?

When I was——

I am willing to go through this Supplementary estimate line by line. What does grant-in-aid for general expenditure cover? What is meant by general expenses? Do they cover the general areas in the Department? What about appropriations-in-aid? Would the Minister define savings on these subheads?

I will give the Deputy the benefit of——

I am not trying to hold up the business of the House, but there are a few areas which need to be mentioned.

When I was sitting where the Deputy is sitting I once thought that because the Supplementary Estimate provided for wages that opened the debate up, but I was soon told it did not.

This is the first time since I came into this House that I have been asked to curtail my comments on a Supplementary Estimate. That is a fair statement——

I do not think so.

I am keeping within the areas covered by this Supplementary Estimate. There is a heading "Grant-in-Aid for General Expenditure". That crosses——

There are three elements——

I am taking this as a reply to the point the Deputy made.

That is my intention. There are additional receipts amounting to £80,000.

Coming from?

Minerals and petroleum.

And a gas is not part of minerals?

No. There are no receipts from the gas side involved in this amount.

Is gas part of the subhead?

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

This is important.

The second element is the use of savings of £346,000 from subhead P, the FEOGA western aid electrification scheme. If we add £346,000 and £80,000 we get a total of £426,000 between savings and switching.

What point is the Minister making?

The additional receipts of £80,000 and the switching from subhead P give a total of £426,000 and I need £427,000 for the Nuclear Energy Board. Therefore, I need the House to vote me £1,000 this morning.

Is it a token figure? Does the Minister accept that this is a token figure?

Under what heading are the savings made?

There are £80,000 from additional receipts——

Subhead Q.3. Petroleum. subhead Q.4 Leases and subhead P FEOGA.

On what will this money be used?

Additional resources for the Nuclear Energy Board to a total of £427,000——

In the Chair's opinion the Deputy may discuss petroleum, leases, FEOGA and the Nuclear Energy Board.

My colleague will discuss FEOGA because that is his area, but I submit that Kinsale gas comes under leases, revenue arises from the sale of gas, and there is a problem in relation to this vis-á-vis An Bord Gáis and Marathon. Therefore, I submit I am entitled to discuss these matters. Because of the problems of Dublin Gas, additional funding is required and the receipts coming into the Exchequer arising from the sale of gas entitle me to discuss this matter. If we sit here all day arguing about this, no one will have time to discuss anything. I do not know if my time is limited but——

You have 45 minutes.

The Minister might withdraw his objection.

It is a meaningless objection and, in my experience, a similar objection has never been made by any other Minister. I am not saying he is not entitled to make such an objection. Of course he is, but what is he standing back from?

Deputy Reynolds has a habit of saying I am standing back from something, I am covering something or I am hiding something. I refute that totally. I am trying to get a bit of efficiency in this House. If everybody stuck to the agenda we might get some business done. I submit that the £80,000 from additional receipts has nothing to do with gas. Thus, we should be confined within Standing Order No. 124.

Deputy Reynolds made the point that some of the leases deal with the gas fields. I do not know if that is so——

It has absolutely nothing to do with this £80,000.

I submit that gas leases are issued under this subhead and I am entitled to discuss them. I do not recall when I was a Minister coming into this House making noises and objecting to this, that and the other when we are discussing a short Supplementary Estimate. I submit that I am in order in discussing this. If I stray from the point, the Chair is entitled to bring me back on the rails.

The Chair is not clear what is covered by leases. The Minister tells me it does not concern gas. What does it concern?

The £80.000 in the main deals with the funds provided by certain holders of exclusive off-shore petroleum licences for training education of Irish personnel which the former Minister for Energy will know is the scholarship fund.

It is easy to say that but Marathon operate under a lease in the Kinsale gas fields from which they produce gas, sell it and the receipts come into the Department. Under that subhead, in a narrow fashion I intend to try to address it.

I am ruling that the only leases we are concerned with here are the leases from which the savings will come.

The lease on the Marathon field is the major lease in the gas area. It is the only area from which we produce gas and from which we receive receipts. It is the area to which the schoolarships which the Minister is talking about refers. Can I now proceed to make my points, and let us get away from this

It is not a harangue?

The Deputy is making it.

It is a spurious argument.

I will certainly not allow a complete debate——

(Interruptions.)

——over the whole field of energy and I will not allow a complete debate over the whole gas board.

I have to mention specific problems in relation to the leases, if the fields are producing gas, the gas is sold and the Department are responsible.

I have made the position clear.

The £80,000 which I referred to has nothing to do with gas or gas receipts.

It is under the subhead. The Minister does not expect anyone to believe that.

(Interruptions.)

I will go ahead now.

Excuse me for a moment. The Chair is now torn between the Minister who has all the relevant material at his disposal saying that the lease with which he is dealing has nothing to do with gas——

Why does he not spell out those leases?

The Deputy must be aware that funds from the sale of gas go directly to the Exchequer and do not come through my Department.

I know that. None of it goes back to the Department at all?

It goes to the Exchequer——

I asked a question. Would the Minister mind telling me to what lease does that £80,000 refer?

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. Will Deputies leave this to Deputy Reynolds?

To what lease does the £80,000 refer?

It refers to a number of leases.

Now we are getting to it. It refers to a number of leases in the minerals and petroleum area which also relates to gas.

The question of the funds from gas sales, which the Deputy wants to raise, is not relevant because it goes directly to the Exchequer and not into the Vote for the Department of Energy.

I did not say that. I said I am entitled to refer to the fact that Marathon is the only company with an offshore lease operating here and I am entitled to talk about it. It is up to the Ceann Comhairle to rule me out if he thinks I am going overboard. The Ceann Comhairle has made his decision so I will go ahead.

If I were to allow a discussion on An Bord Gáis I would then have to allow a discussion on Bord na Móna.

I do not propose to discuss Bord na Móna.

(Interruptions.)

The Ceann Comhairle would have to deal with that when it arose, but he cannot anticipate it. The Chair has now said that nobody can discuss Bord na Móna.

Yes, but I could not logically refuse Deputy Kitt, who is very interested in Bord na Móna, a discussion on that if I were to allow Deputy Reynolds to discuss An Bord Gáis. There has been a long-standing convention here that if a Minister says something is factual the Chair accepts it. The Minister has said that there is nothing to do with gas in these leases.

Therefore, in accordance with long-standing practice the Chair cannot allow them to be discussed. The Chair does not have a briefing session nor does he have documents before him, so he must do his best. It is a very sensible convention. If the Minister says a subject does not concern the matter under discussion the Chair accepts it. If the Minister is caught out in saying something that is incorrect, that is another day's work.

If the Minister is caught out in saying something that is not correct, what chance have I of coming back to correct it?

That is another day's work.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order, under subhead P is it possible to discuss aspects of the ESB in the Supplementary Estimate in view of the fact that the Chair disallowed a number of Dáil questions I had down in that regard?

(Interruptions.)

There is no point in the Deputy throwing his hands up to heaven. A Supplementary Estimate is a Supplementary Estimate.

Can I make a submission?

(Interruptions.)

That subhead, with all due respect to the Chair, refers to aid from the FEOGA fund in Brussels for the installation of electricity into rural and other areas.

(Interruptions.)

I cannot understand how the ESB can be ruled out of discussion.

If the Deputy will bear with me——

(Interruptions.)

I only got this a very short time ago, and I see in small print here that the saving on subhead P is £346,000. That brings it in and the Deputy may discuss it.

We can discuss the ESB?

In any aspect?

Deputy Spring will decide that.

(Interruptions.)

Is the Chair ruling out any discussion on the Marathon gas field?

On what basis?

On the basis that it is not within the ambit of the Supplementary Estimate.

I do not understand the Chair's ruling as the subhead covers minerals, oil and gas. I protest. Five minutes ago the Chair had cleared in his and in my mind what I could and could not discuss.

I was trying to find out the position.

You found out.

(Interruptions.)

I found out that there was nothing about gas in it.

(Interruptions.)

As far as I am concerned we would have gone on with the business 25 minutes ago had the Minister not come in and used his position to raise a spurious argument to try to exclude debate on matters that would have been taken by any other Minister in this House under a Supplementary Estimate.

Before the Minister came in I was taking notice as to how the debate was developing and I would have come in.

The Minister stepped in and did not even leave it to the Chair. Why did the Minister take that action if he was not trying to exclude debate on certain aspects that he did not want discussed? If the Minister was not worried he would not have made any objection. When has a Minister come into this House to try to use a Standing Order rule to try to exclude debate on aspects that he did not want discussed? Much as I dislike saying it, I again submit that the areas of cover-up in energy get wider every day, when this mechanism is used to try to exclude debate.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Minister did not answer the questions I raised here on the last day in relation to energy——

On a point of order.

All right, the Minister can have his point of order.

On a point of order, I invite the Deputy to use the word "cover-up"——

I repeat it.

I invite the Deputy to step outside the House and use it. He is using parliamentary privilege to make a very serious innuendo.

The Minister used parliamentary privilege in relation to my activities——

This is very important. This man came in here on the closing of the "no confidence" debate when he used parliamentary privilege and his position, being the last speaker on that debate, to cast doubt and innuendo over my activities as Minister for Energy in 1982. If I had wanted, when I came into the Department of Energy in 1982, I could have taken up files and shown the shabby and ridiculous situation with which I was left in trying to organise a project in relation to gas. I did not do that because I would not stoop so low. I will not accept a Minister coming in at the end of the debate and using his position to cast aspersions on me——

We cannot have that debate now.

This is a serious matter.

This is not an Adjournment debate.

Will the Chair listen to this? The Chair said that I could correct what the Minister said. The Minister said I had presided, apparently helpless, in the autumn of 1982 over a row involving rival groups seeking control of the company. Under any of the statutes a Minister has not the authority to get involved in a private company that is controlled by shareholders and only the shareholders of a private company can decide in relation to the boardroom battle. Will the Minister be decent enough to withdraw the innuendos he made. that I had a personal interest in what happened in Dublin Gas, because I never had?

This does not arise on the Estimate.

He will not do so because he cannot.

I will not.

The Minister knows there is no statute under which a Minister can get involved and he should not make an innuendo of that kind. I asked the Minister six questions on a previous occasion and I will give him a copy of them after the debate so that he will answer them. He should stop playing politics with Deputy Cluskey and his Labour Party colleagues. He should not be stifling the debate.

This does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy will find a more appropriate time to make these remarks.

The Minister is not interested in answering my questions but if Deputy Cluskey asked for the information it would be given to him. The Minister wants to wrap himself in cotton wool. I have been stopped from talking about the problems of Dublin Gas which will have a detrimental effect on the finances of the Exchequer because of the dispute that has arisen between Marathon and An Bord Gáis. Perhaps the Minister will tell us his plans in regard to the dispute and the implications it has for receipts from the gas, mineral and exploration areas. We are all aware of the conflict which exists and that both sides won part of their arguments in the High Court.

Will the Deputy please speak on the Estimate?

I just want to know the Minister's plans in this regard. What are the implications for the Exchequer? What amount of gas is now being supplied? The Minister's record in relation to other areas suggests that he has not done very much for the past three years.

Keep up the personal sniping.

I can play a clean game or a dirty game. I never played rugby, my game was Gaelic. May I discuss petroleum and mineral leases?

In relation to petroleum leases, can the Minister say how many holes will be drilled in 1987 arising from existing leases? When does he expect the next hole to be drilled in bloc 49.9? I asked the Minister and his Department some time ago to look at early production systems and to let me know if they had been tested. What investigations have taken place and what results, if any, have emerged in relation to the employment of early production systems in the Celtic Sea?

A reduction of 6 per cent in ESB prices does not in any way reflect the savings that should be made to the industrial, manufacturing and commercial areas of the economy which are carrying an additional energy burden of 20 per cent for electricity compared with their competitors in the EMS. In a full year that amounts to a sum of £40 million. Interest rates are very high and this is putting an additional load on our manufacturing industry which is becoming less competitive every day. I have spoken on the subject many times in the House and of the necessity for the Government to ensure that whatever savings are made should be passed on to manufacturers. I accept that a decrease of 6 per cent is a start but there should have been further decreases by now. The ESB will hold on to everything they can. Although they predicted a huge loss last year it turned out to be very small. Their accounting practices are not used in any commercial concern; they employ a device called double depreciation which means ordinary depreciation as is the case with any commercial company and they also have an amortization charge. In the early days of the ESB it provided a fund for development, bearing in mind that the company operate under statute which says they must break even and that they do not make a profit. They had to find some mechanism whereby they could build up a fund for future development. I submit the ESB will not be engaged in any major development works in the foreseeable future. Moneypoint is now coming on stream which will be the only development for a long time to come. The Minister should take a serious look at the system of double depreciation in ESB accounts because we are talking about a sum of £40 million or £50 million every year. I do not have the figures with me because I did not intend to discuss the ESB but I was pushed in that direction.

In the subhead we are talking about the FEOGA aspect of the ESB.

The Minister wants to make the rules to suit himself. The Ceann Comhairle has already ruled——

Mr. Cowen

On a point of order, have you made a decision in response to Deputy Yates to allow him to speak on the ESB?

I will deal with these matters as we go along. I wish to remind Deputy Reynolds that he has only seven minutes left.

When did my time start?

I did not even start to discuss this until about 11.10 a.m. Is that all the time I will get?

I am afraid so.

I will not argue with the Chair. He had a rough time here this morning.

Deputy Reynolds can say a lot in seven minutes.

I would if I knew what I could talk about. As the Minister seems to be annoyed with my remarks about the ESB——

I am not annoyed but the remarks are irrelevant.

I have watched the Minister's inactivity, ineptitude and bad handling of various affairs in the Department over the past three years. The whole area appears to be irrelevant to the Minister. I have asked him to comment on Marathon. I also want to ask what plans he has to ensure that receipts do not decrease and that he will not be called on for more money in relation to the receivership of Dublin Gas. In the next few weeks the shareholders of Dublin Gas will look for an extraordinary general meeting to petition the courts to wind up the company. Can the Minister tell us what he proposes to do about this potential crisis which could have been staved off if the Minister had acted in time. Last April he spoke of nationalising the company but has done nothing since. He did not re-appoint the chairman or four directors who had resigned from the board. Had he done so he could have blocked that decision. Since then, we have had one crisis after another. Over £100 million of taxpayers' money has been put into the company and taxpayers will find themselves greatly exposed because of the Minister's failure to act.

I put down questions which the Minister admitted deserved answers but when I read his replies I found I did not get the answers. I will list the six questions and hand them to him after the debate and I hope that between now and the next time I come back into this House I will have received from him straightforward answers. These questions relate to the activities of the receiver and to those questions the Minister chose not to answer. Perhaps he might reconsider my request to have a full scale debate on the company in this House because the problem has risen to critical proportions.

I ask Deputies to keep their contributions very short because this debate is to conclude at 12 noon.

I wish to raise some points on the ESB which I raised during the summer and which I would like the Minister to respond to. Electricity prices have risen by 22 per cent since 1981-82. ESB prices are now 12 per cent higher than the European average as compared with being 24.7 per cent below the European average in 1973.

A Cheann Comhairle, may I get some clarification on your ruling in relation to the ESB? The aspect of subhead P we are dealing with is the FEOGA western aid electrification scheme. Otherwise, I will be coming into this House with a full departmental Estimate which I did some months ago.

What is the Minister afraid of? The Minister should know the business off the top of his head.

Order, please. As it appears on the supplementary estimate it simply says "P". When I go to the Book of Estimates I find that "P" covers: FEOGA, western aid electrification, provision for the development of electricity supply in certain areas in implementation of EEC Council Regulation 1820/80. I have been enforcing Standing Orders strictly and I will continue to do so. The Deputy will have to confine his remarks to the western aid electrification scheme. Deputies would not be frustrated if they thought for a moment about what a Supplementary Estimate is. The word "supplementary" means something different from the Estimate. It means a Supplementary Estimate dealing with specific items.

Under specific subjects.

Exactly, under specific headings.

The specific subhead is about the ESB.

It does not open up the whole thing.

Deputy Reynolds went into great detail about double depreciation of ESB accounts which had nothing to do with FEOGA. I am equally entitled——

I ruled strictly in so far as Dublin Gas were concerned. I have read out the subhead and the Deputy may speak about electricity within that subhead. I appeal to him not to attempt to go outside it.

When the ESB talk about electricity prices they will be the very first to tell you that one of the reasons electricity prices are high in this country is our low density population and the cost of rural electrification. In that context, it is possible to speak about ESB prices. I am not an unruly Deputy and I do not wish to——

If Deputies would study Standing Orders and procedure, there would not be this daily wrangling with the Chair. It is not that people want to be nasty to the Chair but when they see the magic letters "ESB" the whole blessed thing is open as far as they are concerned. That is not so.

Can I put various questions to the Minister in relation to certain aspects of the ESB?

I want to make it quite clear that in relation to any questions the Deputy may put to me I will reply only with regard to subhead P: FEOGA, western aid electrification scheme.

I ask Deputy Kitt to bear in mind what I have said.

I am disappointed at the way we are being restricted this morning but I will not dwell on that point. I have mentioned in this House before that the Government have been very complacent as regards providing resources for the Nuclear Energy Board. I am glad even at this late stage that some money is to be provided for them although I am disappointed that that money is being taken from the FEOGA western aid electrification scheme. The Minister is robbing Peter to pay Paul because this FEOGA package is one of the most successful schemes ever to be operated in the west. Under this Supplementary Estimate we are taking money from that scheme as part of the Department's policy of giving money to the Nuclear Energy Board. While I welcome the fact that the board at long last have received money, it is a disappointment to see it coming from this source.

I have raised in this House with the Minister on a number of occasions the question of making the FEOGA scheme more flexible. It was a flexible scheme up to 1983 when, after consultations with the EC, the Department told us they had to restrict benefit from the scheme to certain categories of people. Any son or daughter who was building a house in a rural area would not automatically receive benefit from the scheme as there were problems with off farm income and where the young person building the house was not the owner of the land. The Minister should tell us if he had any success in his efforts to have the scheme made more flexible and if more money will be provided. I note in the Estimate that money is being taken out of the FEOGA package and it is my view that one of the reasons for doing that is that the scheme is impracticable and not flexible enough for western areas.

I note from figures I obtained from the Department that 1,444 applicants benefited in 1984, that 699 farmers benefited in 1985 and that up to the end of October this year only 339 applicants had been approved. I note that only half of the money provided in 1986 has been taken up, leaving £711,000 available still. Will the Minister indicate if that money will be taken up or carried forward to 1987? The fact that so few applicants are being approved is an indication that the scheme is too restrictive, as many western Deputies have been claiming. We need to allow more people into the scheme. I suggest that local authorities involved in building houses in rural areas should be allowed to benefit from the scheme. It is sad to think that this year fewer people than last year will benefit under the scheme and that at the end of 1986 money will be left over.

When the ESB communicate with people about their eligibility, or otherwise, under the scheme they mention the great reductions they are offering on immersion heaters and cookers, but there is little point in offering those attractions to people who do not have an electricity supply. I would like to see the quotations being reduced. The scheme operated up to 1983 was very successful but the changes introduced are too restrictive.

I understand that the ESB who are using milled peat in their power stations in the midlands are transporting it from Roscommon and Galway areas. Local people are disappointed that that milled peat is not used in the manufacture of briquettes at the factory at Derryfadda. I understand that 200,000 tonnes, almost all the milled peat harvested in that area, has been transported to the midlands. I am not blaming the Minister for that decision because it was the present Minister for Finance who told us in 1983 that the Government would not be forced into making a hasty decision on the Derryfadda project.

Three years have elapsed since that statement and it is disappointing that a decision has not yet been announced although £15.4 million was provided for it in the Book of Estimates in 1984. However, of that figure only £4.6 million was spent on the project. We have not heard anything about that project since. There does not appear to be any enthusiasm in the Cabinet for the project. We have been told that there is little likelihood of EC aid being made available for it but I wonder if the Government have applied for such assistance. We have been told by the Government that an IDA grant of £3 million for the project has been approved but that approval was in principle only. There is a shortage of briquettes throughout the country, particularly in western areas, and the Western Health Board who organise a free fuel scheme are finding it difficult to get briquettes, one of the most popular types of fuel among elderly people. Will the Minister consult with that health board about the shortage of supply?

The 1984 annual report of Bord na Móna stated that the expenditure on the proposed briquette factory at Derryfadda had amounted to £29.5 million up to 1 March 1985 and that should be sufficient to encourage the Government to proceed with the project. The Irish Transport and General Workers' Union have said that the employment envisaged in the construction stage would be 75 jobs rising to 180, and that the factory in full production would employ 110 people or a yearly average of 300 jobs on the bog and in the factory. Is it not economic madness not to proceed with that project, bearing those figures in mind? The ITGWU state that the two year delay has cost £3½ million so far and that, if the delay is allowed to continue for a further year, the cost will rise to almost £4 million.

While the Government are delaying in making a decision on this project, they are permitting imports of lignite briquettes from Germany. The Government have not bothered to apply to the EC for assistance to help the board exploit our peat resources and process peat briquettes. I hope the Minister will have some news about the review his predecessor undertook to carry out.

Like other western Deputies I am concerned about the hasty decisions and reactions in the past two years of Bord na Móna on proposed lay-offs. Last year the board said they would be laying off 800 people but that decision was deferred. This year the board announced that they would be laying of 2,300 people, but we have been told in the past few weeks that that figure will be reduced to 400. Instead of laying off workers Bord na Móna should be taking them on. It appears that the board do not have any contingency fund or plan to deal with problems that arise from poor weather conditions. In my area the board proposed to lay off 20 people at Derryfadda in addition to the 100 laid off last year. I understand that they proposed to lay off 47 people at the Attymon station. In effect, that would have meant that the station would be almost closed with only five people to maintain it.

Those lay-offs are occurring at a time when there is a need to develop bogs at Derryfadda, Cluain Caoin and Derrydoo. It concerns me that, in addition to laying off workers, there is no commitment to develop our bogs. The Minister will have to give a direction to Bord na Móna to continue that development. The Board own those bogs but we should insist on a commitment from them to develop them.

One of the important factors in the area of energy is the question of competitiveness, particularly among business people. The price of electricity to industrialists here is 30 per cent higher than that charged to industrialists elsewhere in the EC. It is time the Minister announced the proposed reduction in ESB prices.

The Deputy is moving away from the subject matter of the debate. The Chair has made it clear that this is a restricted and not a general debate on an Estimate and I hope all Deputies will bear that in mind.

People are under the impression that the Government use energy as a means of raising revenue and that was brought home to all Members yesterday when they met representatives of the motor industry. Those people pointed out to us that 66 per cent of the price of a gallon of petrol goes to the Government in tax.

That has nothing to do with the subhead. The Deputy is getting too much mileage out of it.

I accept that. When the Minister is dealing with electricity prices he should not forget industrialists.

He will not be dealing with them in this debate.

We have heard that there will be reductions in the price of electricity and petrol. I hope these will be passed on to both the domestic consumer and the industrialist. Costs for our industrialists are between 30 per cent and 40 per cent higher than those on their European counterparts.

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an rún agus an vóta seo. Glacaim leis go bhfuil géarghá leis. Tá súil agam go rachaidh sé chun sochair do na daoine go bhfuil sé beartaithe dóibh.

In supporting this revised Estimate as outlined by the Minister I should like to speak as chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. I welcome subhead P — FEOGA, western aid electrification. This will benefit part of the country.

They have cut 343——

Deputy Prendergast without interruption.

The Minister cut it down and this man is congratulating him on that.

I do not interrupt other people. They are wasting their own time. I do not mind if they want to do that. There should not be any fundamental difference on the need for an integrated national energy policy as outlined in this Estimate. We have four energy agencies — Bord na Móna, the ESB, BGE and INPC.

The Deputy must refer to subhead P. I want to keep him on the right track.

I am not getting away from the subhead. I am glad of the opportunity to impress on the Minister and his officials the need for an integrated national energy policy to monitor the use of scarce national resources.

On a point of order, during 35 minutes of my time the Ceann Comhairle dealt at length with what could and could not be spoken about. He ruled rigidly that we stick to what is in the Supplementary Estimate.

The Ceann Comhairle is not here.

I ask you, Sir, to explain to me where in any of the subheads we are discussing does an integrated national energy policy arise?

No more than in some of the contribution of Deputy Kitt, Deputy Prendergast and other speakers went astray. The Chair is only human. I am doing my best to keep him on a straight line.

I am quite conscious of the fact that people would have liked Deputies——

There are 16 minutes remaining.

For 35 minutes the Minister tried to invoke Standing Orders in order to debar me from speaking about various aspects of this Estimate. In the end the Ceann Comhairle laid down strict guide lines under which it could be discussed. I put it to you, Sir, that Deputy Prendergast is so far off in dealing with a national energy policy in relation to this——

The Deputy should save his own energy and resume his seat. I say to Deputy Prendergast that he is on a very restricted line. This is not a general debate. It is only on subhead P.

I am grateful for your ruling. The record will show that, as someone who is familiar with procedures. I tend always to abide by the Chair's ruling. It is a little unfair of Deputy Reynolds who is no stranger to this——

The Deputy should have been here for an hour this morning. He would then know what I am talking about.

I did not interrupt Deputy Reynolds and I do not need his advice. He was allowed to talk. I will speak to the Estimate.

The Supplementary Estimate.

I am surprised that the Deputy should say that seeing that he is the Fianna Fáil spokesman on Energy. If we had a better energy system we could do far more with the money we are talking about.

If we had a better Minister for Energy we might do better.

I am talking about the western aid scheme.

The Deputy had moved away from that. Stay in the west.

I hope this will be availed of by the Minister to strengthen the NEB which is also involved in the Estimate.

It is not involved in the Estimate. It is a Supplementary Estimate dealing with subhead P.

Subhead P is one aspect. The money is being voted for the NEB.

I am doing my best to speak to the Supplementary Estimate.

I am doing my best too.

It is particularly important that we strengthen our efforts to ensure that this country will not be damaged by the fall-out from Sellafield. I appeal to the Minister to impress on the NEB the need for them to be constantly vigilant in this regard.

I am sure the Opposition will agree when I say that, where there are scarce national resources, it is wrong for four commercial semi-State bodies to play roulette with public money. They are competing against each other with their hands under the table in the one till which is the taxpayers' pocket. Some of these bodies are placing costly advertisements. That would be all right if there were free competition and if the taxpayer did not have to pick up the tab. Since we cannot afford to waste scarce national resources we should ensure that the best possible use is made of them.

I intended to talk about incineration and what has been done in Denmark. A city in Denmark twice the size of Cork, Aarhus, introduced its own incineration scheme. It paid for itself in four years and they made a profit of £2 million. I will not deal with that further. We should eliminate waste in the public sector and use any scarce moneys we have to create.

The Deputy is running all over the field.

Perhaps the Minister might explain why a document published by his Department made no reference to the use of incineration as an indigenous infinite resource for heating towns and cities. If that were introduced we would not then be so dependent on this kind of Estimate.

Deputies N. Treacy, Daly and J. Leonard rose.

Three Deputies cannot speak together. Please make up your minds which one of you will speak. Perhaps Deputy J. Leonard——

My name has been on the list for two weeks.

I do not wish to delay the House unduly.

There are 11 minutes remaining.

It is desirable that additional funds be made available to deal with the crisis we have in monitoring the dangers from Sellafield.

Hear, hear.

This is a whole new dimension. There are indications of an alarming increase in acid rain on the east coast, which makes it more urgent and necessary that additional funds be provided to deal with the rapidly deteriorating situation. Unfortunately, the way in which the Minister is dealing with this matter is inadequate and is a piecemeal method of dealing with a very serious situation. Everybody knows there is a lack of staff and facilities, that the Nuclear Energy Board are totally incapable as at present constituted of dealing with this major issue. The funds being provided here are totally inadequate. It is essential that every effort be made to have structures, finance, staff and resources available. While today's proposal is useful, it will go no way towards dealing with the crisis we are now facing.

The FEOGA scheme has been a success in so far as it has been able to operate but there have been very serious restrictions on its operation. I understood from the Minister earlier this year that some proposals were submitted to Brussels for changes in the scheme which would make it applicable to some of the people being denied aid. The Minister will be aware that some old age pensioners living along in isolated rural areas are being denied this aid. Funds should be available to provide electricity for such people, but we find the Minister cutting back on such funds.

Disgraceful.

He should push ahead with proposals for the extension of the western package to the people deprived of aid under that scheme. There seems to be money available for this purpose. Also many young families have been deprived of aid under this scheme in the western areas. Some families have been faced with bills of £5,000 to £6,000 for the installation of electricity, and aid under this scheme is being denied to them at a time when they cannot afford the cost of installation. I do not wish to delay the passage of this Estimate unduly, but the Minister must address himself to these very serious issues. He should look into the restricted terms for qualification for aid under this scheme. Would he see that, through the European scheme, assistance is given to these less well off and deprived people?

I shall be very brief and I shall ensure that Deputy Treacy will have an opportunity to speak. As the previous speaker said, additional funding is needed for equipment, staffing and whatever else is required to ensure that the Nuclear Energy Board will do their job. There has been a serious fall-off in the demand for produce in certain areas, including my own county, due to the fears and threats following the Chernobyl disaster.

The Minister states that there will be no reduction in the amount of £6.38 million which the EC are prepared to make available under the FEOGA scheme during its life span. However, we cannot accept the proposed delay in payment. This is a ten year scheme from 1981 to 1991 and we are told we will get aid within a few years. Funding was made available and should be used, especially for western development. We ask the Minister to reduce the restrictions on the electrification scheme under FEOGA. When it came out first, it was fairly liberal and domestic supplies could be arranged along with farmyard and other agricultural supplies. However, it has become very restrictive in recent years. I ask the Minister to examine the issue of the aged who cannot afford electricity installation costs. I brought this matter before the local authority, the health board and the Department suggesting that for houses where the supply has been approved under the housing aid for the elderly, the Minister's Department should initiate some scheme which would cover installation costs. I ask the Minister, in conjunction with his colleagues. to follow that suggestion. It is worthwhile and would be a good day's work.

I want to condemn at the very outset the reduction in this Estimate for the western package by £346,000 this year. This is a serious situation. I have continuously said here that, since this Government came into office, the rules have been changed and people have been denied assistance which heretofore they were getting. I have letters here from the Department of Energy refusing people assistance on the grounds that there was another house on the farm, despite the fact that the new house had been built by a son who was currently working in agriculture and was prepared to stimulate work in that sector. Does the Minister want the local authorities to be forced to build houses for people on farms in rural Ireland instead of people helping themselves? It is an absolute disgrace and I am asking him to review the situation and ensure that people will not be prevented from working full time in agriculture by him or his Government.

I welcome the Bord na Móna positive decision to reduce the lay-offs from 2,356 to 400. However, there is no reason why 400 should be let go because there is plenty of development work to be done in the bogs, in my own area at Clonkeen Clough and Derrydoo. In the Attymon group of bogs, at Lesmanny in Clonfert and at Ballyforan there is plenty of opportunity if the Department and the Government are prepared to put the resources at the disposal of Bord na Móna and allow them to proceed with development.

When we were in Government in the eighties we negotiated under the ad valorem programme a large amount of money which would be made available for indigenous peat resource development. One of the first things the Minister did when he came into office——

An Leas Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Treacy, please, you are not on subhead P. You are speaking in a restricted debate and your own colleague, Deputy Reynolds, indicated that we should stay on that.

(Interruptions.)

Would you please stay with the subhead? It is not a general debate on Bord na Móna or electricity. We are on subhead P and you know it too well.

I was speaking on that subhead but I have gone to another energy source. I am telling the Minister that it is time his Government recognised the need for development of our indigenous industries. There were resources available in Europe and this Government turned their backs on them. They have now become available again.

You are being persistent, Deputy.

We have all these resources——

Please abide by the ruling of the Chair.

We should give the economic opportunities to our semi-State bodies——

What did I say to you? You are wasting your own energy on the wrong material.

The opportunities should be made for our own people. We have been denied an opportunity here all morning, as Opposition spokesmen, to make our contribution which is very unfair.

This is a restricted debate.

We are talking about an extra £1,000.

Would you stay with that £1,000?

There has been a reduction of £346,000 to the farmers in western Ireland. All this is based on technical criteria, denying the people of the west the Government assistance to which they are entitled. The European Community recognise the disadvantaged areas, but the Government fail to recognise them and have failed to avail themselves of the financial resources available in Europe to help those areas.

Why does the Minister continue to deny us the opportunity to help ourselves, to create jobs for our people, to exploit our natural indigenous resources? In the last month briquettes have been imported from Sweden and Germany. We cannot even meet our own commitment.

This is not relevant under subhead P.

Surely I can make the point that we should not be precluded from highlighting the parallel situation. We must give the facts and if they do not sound too nice that is not our problem. We have not heard a thing about an application for another western package from the EC.

It is 12 noon and the debate must be brought to a conclusion.

I am asking the Minister for Energy to take a positive look at this and afford the people of the west an opportunity to help themselves by way of Government assistance and European Regional Fund aid.

Vote put and agreed to.
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