By agreement, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, Members shall be called in Private Members' Time this evening as follows: 7 p.m. to 7.10 p.m., Fianna Fáil speaker; 7.10 p.m. to 7.27 p.m., Government speaker; 7.27 p.m. to 7.37 p.m., Government speaker; 7.37 p.m. to 7.42 p.m., Progressive Democrat speaker; 7.42 p.m. to 7.55 p.m., Fianna Fáil speaker; 7.55 p.m. to 8.10 p.m., Fianna Fáil speaker; 8.10 p.m. to 8.15 p.m., Government speaker and 8.15 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., Fianna Fáil speaker
Private Members' Business. - Bovine TB Eradication.
The following motion was moved on Tuesday, 9 December 1986:
That Dáil Éireann, aware of the current lack of progress in the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, condemns the Government's failure to implement the scheme in an effective manner and calls for urgent action to remedy the situation.
—(Mr. Noonan,Limerick West.)
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:—
"Dáil Éireann notes that, notwithstanding the constraints imposed by the Budgetary situation, the Government's programme for the eradication of bovine diseases is achieving satisfactory results."
—(Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture.)
Is the schedule of speakers for Private Members' Business agreed? Agreed.
The usual practice has to been to include a speaker from The Workers' Party on Wednesday night and I should like to know if an oversight has occurred.
I should like to know how one gets on the team announced by the Chair.
I suggest the Deputies consult the Whips.
Does one have to get a transfer or pay a fee?
May I have an answer to my question? Have we been overlooked or looked over and found wanting?
I cannot answer that question.
I support the motion tabled by my party. The Government can be accused of a lack of faith in the scheme. In fact they lack faith in agriculture whether it is in beef, milk, beet or the pig industry. There has been a lot of evidence of that in the past four years. At EC level the Government failed to fight for a just slice of the cake for the farmers and workers. As a result of the massive cutbacks by the Government the dole queues have lengthened. In the last 32 years more than £1,000 million of taxpayers' money has spent on the bovine TB scheme. It is a national scandal that the Government at a time of high unemployment have cut back on the allocation to agriculture, particularly in connection with the eradication of bovine TB. I understand the figure for that scheme has been cut by £4 million. The result is that all the hard work and money spent in the last 30 years has gone out the window. That amounts to national sabotage by the Government who are bent on book-keeping exercises.
I cannot stress too much how important it is that this scheme should succeed. If it does not achieve its target not alone will the farmers and their families suffer but workers in factories will suffer. The Government were short-sighted in cutting the allocation for that scheme by £4 million. We all have heard of the serious outbreaks of bovine TB and brucellosis due to the absence of a proper testing programme. We do not need the stop-gap measure adopted by the Government. If that is allowed to continue our dairy herd will suffer and we may not be able to fill the mean quota that was feebly fought for in Brussels. That would be serious for the nation.
I appeal to the Minister of State and his colleagues to have some faith in our most important industry, agriculture. They should stop this penny-pinching. How can we expect aid from Brussels when our Government do not have faith in our farmers? Farmers should be encouraged to remain on the land and not driven off it. The Euro-loan introduced to help farmers was a farce. A one year subsidy on borrowings was not sufficient. Farmers have experienced two of the worst years in living memory but they got very little help from the Government with the exception of a Mickey Mouse loan scheme for one year. The Government should have prepared a scheme of low interest loans repayable over a long term. If the scheme is allowed to go much further down that road of destruction, the taxpayers will have to provide a lot more money to help farmers to recover. It is important that we continue our efforts to eradicate bovine TB and brucellosis.
Bearing in mind the amount of money and time that has been put into this scheme, it is difficult to understand how it has not succeeded. We must be the laughing stock of Europe. The Minister should ask the senior officials in his Department to introduce a county scheme giving more authority to local officials. There must be a weak link in the system if it has not been a success after 30 years. Farmers have played their part and in the past 12 months they have contributed £13 million in disease levies. What have they got in return? What they got in return for that investment was a drop in their income. We have heard a lot of waffle in the last four years about farm grants, ACOT cutbacks and so on but the farmers have had to pay levies, increased taxation and land tax. One would imagine that the industry was prospering. The farming community are prepared to pay their taxes, on accounts, like any other business and I do not see any reason why they should be taxed in a different manner. They are honest people and always paid their way. They always served the nation when needed.
The Government in order to satisfy certain interests have introduced a land tax. It will cost millions to operate that scheme but there will be little return from it. That scheme will not be around long when we get our hands on the powers of Government. We have given a commitment to abolish it when we are returned to power and, judging by recent events, that will not be too long. We have had a crisis every week in the past six weeks. It is sad to think that the Government are operating this scheme on a shoe-string budget although £13 million has been poured into it by the farming community. What other section of society would tolerate a Government that treated them in this manner? Farmers have had to take a 24 per cent reduction in their income in the past three years. How can they stay in business? How can the nation survive? We have heard too much waffle from the Department, some of whose officials never saw a green field. All we have are long dole queues and 30,000 on the emigrant ship. What are the farmers to do? They have had to cope with bad weather and a reduction in milk quotas. In recent months there has not been a bob to pay for the reactors sent to the factories. The Government should get out and let the people of Ireland blood test them. I am sure there will be a big number of reactors on the Government side.
I hope the Deputy does not get brucellosis after his contribution. I am pleased to have an opportunity to make a contribution on this important farming topic.
I understand why the Opposition put down this motion — to embarrass the Government. There are rights and wrongs about everything. I will not say that everything is rosy on one side or the other, but where we have real successes we should accept them, and where we have problems we must identify them and try to solve them. For the good of agriculture and everybody in the country let us hope we will be able to bring about conditions which will eradicate this dreadful disease of tuberculosis in cattle.
Whenever we spoke about animal disease until quite recently we always said that brucellosis was a far more dreaded disease than TB. Connected as I was with the cattle business in the marts in the early seventies, I recall that the greatest fright other than sickness in the family that could befall any farmer was to be told that his cattle had brucellosis. In 1980, we had 9,000 herds locked up with brucellosis. It was a frightening statistic, and a wave of emotion engulfed the entire country. The Department of Agriculture personnel who oversaw the eradication of that disease are the self-same team, under the same type of regulations, who are now trying to wrestle with TB. For the record, for those 9,000 herds in 1980 which were locked up with brucellosis read 70 herds in 1986. The Department of Agriculture, the Animal Health Council, the farmers and the others associated with the campaign can be patted on the back because they did so well on brucellosis eradication.
It is important for our trading partners to know that we have that clean record. A few weeks ago I was in Scotland on a CBS promotion of live heifers from the west and it was very important for me to be able to say that Ireland now has the same status as England, Scotland and Wales — we were declared free of brucellosis. We cannot be complacent about it — we must retain that status as far as brucellosis is concerned.
On TB, this is the same country, the same cattle, the same Department of Agriculture. When the TB scheme began 30 years ago one animal in six reacted to the disease — the country was rotten with bovine TB. It is still bad but only to the degree that one out of 300 cattle was a reactor in November 1986. In November 1956, 5,280 herds were locked up or restricted, 5,000 herds too many. In these competitive days we have to stand shoulder to shoulder with the farming nations of the world and it is most important that we have clean tag as far as animal health is concerned. That is why at every farmers' meeting throughout the country the main topic of conversation is TB and its eradication.
I am glad to be able to say that we have spent much time ensuring that the source and spread of bovine TB can be identified so that we can come to grips with it. There are baffled farming families who owned those 5,000 restricted herds who cannot for the life of them understand how TB got into their farms. We have an enlightened energetic research committee dealing with issues that arise not only here but throughout the world. Some commentators, farmers and others think we have a very inward looking view of this disease, that we have not learned from experiences of other countries. That is not so. We draw on their experience every week.
The question people in the veterinary profession all over the world are asking is whether it would be better to blood test cattle for tuberculosis. I am not a vet so I cannot give any direction from a scientific or professional point of view. However, I hope that very shortly we will be able to say conclusively if that would be a better scheme for this country, if we could say we would be able to monitor the results better, show that value was being got for the taxpayers' money and that farmers' animals would be safe from disease.
There are other small matters which I have not time to deal with this evening. For instance, we should consider the type of disinfectants used up to a few years ago. I am not certain there were controls on the type of disinfectants used after the dreaded disease appeared. Everything in the DVOs is now computerised. People take little notice when they are told that the files in our DVOs are computerised and that this makes a great difference to the operation of the scheme. We will be in a position in the very near future to identify at the flick of a switch all that should be known not alone about herd-owners but about every animal they own.
We have to find out how the disease spreads. We have been told it is a lateral spread. Some farmers argue with me that the disease has no way of getting in unless it blew in by the last helicopter that flew over. It seems to me that we should have better fencing. A controversy has arisen about badgers. I am speaking personally when I say that I have not the slightest doubt that badgers carry the disease. In my view, where they are seen to carry the disease, the good offices of everybody should be harnessed to ensure the badgers are wiped out for the greater good of the community.
Community awareness is very important. In my townland of Mountbellew everybody blesses themselves when they have clear tests; when it happens that the cattle of one poor devil react to the test they shrug their shoulders and say that he was unlucky but they were very lucky. Nobody is lucky if TB is within an ass's roar of the them. We have to have community awareness about this because we must regard TB in the same way as we regarded attacks on old people in rural Ireland a few years ago. It is that serious. At the end of the day it has the same effect of various reasons I do not have to detail. We have now reached the stage at which there is that community awareness.
There are a few other exciting things happening I should mention. Admittedly they are administrative details but they are important and have been long overdue. I have always found it quite difficult to understand why reactor animals could not and would not have been sent directly to the factory the minute, the day or the week they were identified as having TB. We have now shortened the period in that respect enormously. The period within which farmers will now have a chance of getting their animals to the factory will be ten days. But a very real administrative problem has arisen there. It is simply this, that some factories, for one reason or another, just do not want to hear about reactor cattle; they would rather see the devil himself appear than a load of reactor cattle and they pay accordingly. This means that the salvage value of the animal to the farmer is even more depressed than it should be, in other words, the steamroller is being put on the farmer twice over. On the one hand he loses the animal and then receives a price much less than the market would require or dictate for the animal in question.
The system we are operating in County Cork on a pilot basis is something I know a little about because I was involved in the mart in Tuam in the early seventies. At that time I provided a service to the mart when our lorry, as a free service, collected reactor animals — at that time it was all a question of brucellosis — and brought them to the various factories. This is a much better scheme in the sense that the provision is, from a statutory or mandatory point of view, that farmers must use the system. I am sure that Deputy J. Walsh opposite will maintain a close eye on this. I think it is the beginning of a national scheme. First, a job can be done in getting animals to the factory likely to pay most for them, that has a trade for them. We can be assured that, once the animals are collected exfarm, they go directly to the factory. When one has commodities as lethal as TB cattle in a lorry it is important that they go directly from the farm to the factory. It is also vital that we know that such vehicles would be thoroughly disinfected after each such visit. That is a step in the right direction. I understand that the system will have its little hiccups but it will be to the benefit of farmers generally and they will come to see that themselves. It will be much better if such animals go directly to the factory involving, hopefully, the co-operatives and anybody else throughout the country. Hopefully this pilot project will spread to all areas, at which stage we can be sure that we have tightened up on that aspect.
The Minister has approximately three minutes to conclude.
One would need three hours on a subject like this.
Thirty years; it is difficult to cover the subject in a few minutes.
Headlines in the papers always read: £300 million wasted on TB eradication. Much of that type of propaganda occurred before my time and I have no doubt it will continue. A few years ago we tightened the provisions of the system, we changed the nomination of the veterinary surgeon — all of this was trotted out here last evening — so that now we have greater control over the implementation of the system. We are able more quickly to identify reactor animals, hopefully getting them to the factory more quickly, all of that kind of thing. With all the talk about cutbacks, I should say that there has been a cutback from the 1985 level of approximately £33 million, that is what it cost that year. To my knowledge that was the highest amount ever paid for eradication of this disease. Unfortunately there was a cutback, something we in Agriculture certainly did not like. We would much have preferred to have had the full round of testing during 1986 but, when one checks the figures, one finds that the best possible use was made of the money available at the time.
There are a few extreme black spots in the country. There will have to be a continuation of the concerted effort made in the course of this year to eliminate those black spots. I might mention County Longford in particular, where I attended a few public meetings in the last few years. It is an area in which the incidents of TB is extremely high. There has been intensive testing carried on in County Longford — despite what the Opposition will say about cutbacks — during 1986. I am told that we are now beginning to see some levelling off of the incidence of the disease. In addition I am glad to say that it is hoped that, commencing early in January next, that county will receive the type of consideration it deserves, that there will be a full round of testing carried out there, with a possible second round. Certainly the first round of testing will commence right across County Longford in the very near future.
There is then the whole question of an outbreak of the disease, as occurred in Portumna in my own county, in many parts of the midlands, when it is often extremely difficult to ascertain how it began. One of our biggest problems of all is that of re-infection, an area having been cleared of the disease but which for some reason nobody has yet explained to my satisfaction, becomes reinfected.
The fact that the depopulation grants were initiated a few years ago and have been increased is a demonstration of our commitment to the people who have to cope with this dreaded disease. Every effort will be made in the year 1987 to ensure that we get as near to the type of testing we should all like to see in order to eliminate this dreaded disease from our herds.
I shall be supporting the amendment put down by the Minister. There are a few points I should like to make in the overall context of the debate with regard to the TB eradication programme. It is true to say that in the last 30 years, substantial amounts of money have been spent by the State, by the taxpayer, on the elimination of this disease. The figure being thrown around is of the order of £1,000 million in today's money values. The real figure would be closer to £400 million. It happens regularly — not in this Department alone — that figures are exaggerated. With regard to this programme it appears as if the farming community received hand-outs approximating to that amount of money. For the first time ever I believe that this year and last there was a real contribution made by the people most affected, the farming community. Some farmers' livelihoods have been eliminated over those years through the incidence of this dreaded disease.
It is long past the time for the establishment of a management broad to administer this scheme throughout the country. Farmers now paying in the region of £11 million and £12 million in levies — that in the years 1985 and 1986 — should have a say in the operation of this scheme. They have made a contribution of the great magnitude that I have mentioned and they have no say in the administration of the scheme. That is done by the Department of Agriculture through the DVOs throughout the country and one is depending on the 196 veterinary practitioners employed by the Department and the 800 private practitioners. Until such time as we make an honest effort to give the people who are most effected and who are giving a substantial amount of money towards the eradication of this disease we will not have the bottom line result that we would all like to see.
I had the opportunity of attending a meeting of farmers in my constituency about a month ago and for the first time ever in my years in politics or in attending those meetings I witnessed a willingness among the people who attended that meeting to have this disease eradicated. Members in this House have made the point that the allocation for this year was reduced. We accept that, and we are not defending it for the sake of defending it. In the budget reductions had to be made in expenditure and this was one of the areas where some of these reductions had to be made. However, it should be pointed out here that in 1981, 99 per cent of the herd was tested; in 1982, 76 per cent; in 1983, 45 per cent; in 1984, 90 per cent; in 1985, 135 per cent and in 1986 an estimated 58 per cent. Taking 1985 and 1986 together would indicate that in the region of 90 per cent of the herds were tested in each of the two years. That is not as bad as some members of the Opposition might think.
For the sake of £5 million it is incredible that all the people involved will be paid a certain amount of money and at the end of the day the numbers of herd tests are fewer to the extent of 42 per cent in one year. Everybody is aware of how serious the problem is and how severely affected individual families have been because of this decision which meant losing their herds or their herds being locked up.
The proper way forward in this is the pilot scheme that the Minister spoke about here this evening. Cork and Longford have a particularly serious problem in this respect. The people affected by this and who are contributing towards the eradication of this disease should be involved in the administration of the scheme. That is not too much to ask for. We have tried all other ways and I believe that this new way will be very successful. Farmers should have 40 per cent of representation, with the Department and the IVU having the rest of the representation on the board set up to deal with this problem.
We in this House and people outside are aware that all cattle here move about six times in their lifetime. That is not so in almost any other country in the world. It is very difficult to prevent this disease spreading in such circumstances. This country is known as the country where thousands of people live from dealing in cattle. That has not changed over my lifetime of 30 years and I do not think it will change very much in the next 30 years. Worst affected by this are areas where a large number of cattle dealers make their livelihoods and cattle are moved on a continuous basis. Now that we are aware of this we should try to get the people concerned to come together to deal with it. The farming organisations have been omitted from any active part in the administration of the scheme. They would have a very important input, not alone because they are paying out £12 million or £13 million towards the scheme but because they know ways to improve the situation by, for instance, introducing proper tags which cannot be tampered with.
The Deputy has less than two minutes left.
A permit system should be introduced for the movement of cattle, and that should be more strictly controlled than it is. The new computer systems introduced in the DVO offices will help in this. These are supposed to be coming on stream early next year. Nobody in this House will disagree that the control of movement of cattle has not been satisfactory. Indeed, there has been no control in this area.
If the Minister would take on board the proposal that I have made and consider it seriously, then in a short time even with the amount of money available we could make very important improvements in this area.
The Deputy must conclude. Deputy O'Malley has until 7.42 p.m., five minutes.
Amendment No.24 in my name reads:
To delete all words after "That", and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann, conscious of the fact that (i) bovine TB eradication has now been unsuccessfully pursued for 32 years, at a cost of over £1,000 million to the taxpayer in today's values, and (ii) that the scheme now employes over 1,300 civil servants, and involves 800 veterinary surgeons, deplores the failure of the scheme to eradicate the disease, and calls for a completely new scheme, incorporating proper management systems at Departmental level, including stringent controls and adequate recording of data on the movement of cattle, and adequate incentives and sanctions to ensure the highest standards of co-operation by all farmers".
This amendment which is in my name and those of my colleagues, draws attention to the fact that this eradication scheme which we have has been pursued now with no success for 32 years. We are no better off than we were ten years ago and it is doubtful whether we are any better off than we were 32 years ago. This has been done at a cost of no less than £1,000 million to the taxpayer in today's values. According to the Committee on Public Expenditure, who investigated this matter thoroughly, the scheme employs more than 1,300 civil servants doing nothing else but pursuing this scheme which is getting nowhere. In addition, at least on a part time basis, 800 veterinary surgeons in private practice are involved in it. The committee's report refers to this scheme as now being more accurately described as a TB containment scheme because there is no longer any real desire, from what they can see, to eradicate it because there are too many vested interests at both bureaucratic and professional levels seeking just to contain the disease rather than to eradicate it. To continue this appalling waste of money is, as has been described by one of the most distinguished public servants, Dr. T. K. Whitaker, perhaps the greatest scandal in the waste of public money in this country since the establishment of the State.
It is not a once off thing where millions of pounds are wasted on one project. It has gone on year after year now for 32 years and, as this committee point out, in some counties and in the present year the incidence of the disease is four times greater than it was a decade ago, and still the money is churned out year after year.
The Deputy has two minutes left.
The Committee on Public Expenditure in their report are appalled that there are over 1,300 people providing support for the scheme and that these costs continue even when, as happened in the past, no testing takes place. I suppose the idea of that report, as with many others from which I could give umpteen quotations, is to try to brush it under the carpet and hope it will go away, to hope that this nonsensical scheme which is doing nothing to achieve its objective and is back at square one will go on indefinitely because there are too many people doing too well out of it. It is worthwhile contrasting the position with regard to bovine TB eradications here with the position in Northern Ireland where conditions are much the same, where the land is much the same and where success has been achieved although we have nothing but failure here.
One of the ways in which we can assess our ability as a nation to turn our own affairs is in respect of something like this which is enormously damaging to one of our principal industries and one of our principal ways of life. Yet we have tolerated this. Much of the criticism tends to be only of detail and not of the principle involved. It is not criticism of the appalling failure which has been going on for more than three decades now. If it continues in the same way, and nothing I have heard suggests it will be otherwise, it will continue for another three decades.
One of the most disturbing aspects of this matter is that the Coalition Government will not admit that the decision not to honour their commitment in Building on Reality to carry out this three year programme, was disastrous. The lengths to which Government speakers go to cover up is appalling. It is disturbing that all sorts of excuses and distortions are put forward continuing to say that progress has been made, when the reality is that no progress has been made and we are in a worse position now after 31 years of attempting to eradicate this disease than we were ten years ago.
The farming community who have most to lose were asked to pay a levy in the region of £13 million per annum, for one year. That, of course, was extended for a further year. Despite the fact that the farming community paid that money, which should be sufficient to cover a full round of testing, they were abandoned and left with a 60 per cent of a round of testing. Some of them have suffered financially as a result of this.
Another aspect of the abandonment of the three year programme was the extremely shabby treatment of 130 young veterinary surgeons who were given categorical assurances they would get three full years work. The treatment of those young graduates ranks as one of the lowest things that I have come across. They are now regarded as scabs and undesirable people in their profession and most of them have abandoned any hope of employment in this country. Those concerned with that aspect of the scheme should be ashamed of themselves.
It has been suggested that some progress has been made under the scheme. Over the last decade in the region of 30,000 reactors have been found each year. Progress has not been made and there is no point in switching from percentage prevalence to percentage incidence to give an impression that progress has been made. It has been sugested that there is ongoing research into disease eradication. The reality is that there are only a handful of research workers in this area and even at that they are not involved full time in the research programme. The main difficulty is that there has not been continuity of funding for this scheme. This stop-go policy, picking disputes with some of the people involved from time to time to slow up the scheme, has been absolutely disastrous. This happened in the seventies in relation to lay technicans whom we do not hear about now, but it was disastrous then. It happened also in relation to direct nomination of veterinary surgeons and the employment of young vets. Of course that has been reneged on, the veterinary practices are once again doing what they always did and there is no change.
In relation to research into disease eradication, it is regrettable that our major agricultural research organisation, An Foras Talúntais are not allowed to do the research in this area. After 31 years of fiddling around with attempts to eradicate the disease, An Foras Talúntais are still prevented from carrying out this, research. There is no point in saying we have a more difficult job than other countries. All over Europe people have the same problem, maybe not as acute as we have in some cases, but nevertheless the same problem. We cannot progress until we appreciate that this disease can be controlled. Unless we have adequate continuity of finance and adequate research, we will never master the problem. In relation to disease control, we should disinfect mart premises, lorries and so on, this is elementary. It is a scandal that many of the trucks used to take diseased cattle to and from marts and factories only get the gesture of a cold water hose down. The reality is that this is a very contagious bug which could be eliminated by the use of disinfectants. The Department's inspectorate should be more insistent on adequate disinfecting of mart premises. The farming community should have more of an interest than anybody else in insisting that people who regularly visit their farms on cattle business are adequately disinfected before they are allowed on the premises. Unless those precautions are taken we will continue with this appalling lack of results under this scheme.
This is a highly contagious disease and unless adequate precautionary measures are taken we will not deal with it. In relation to eradicating brucellosis and foot and mouth disease, we did not rely on old excuses or slap ourselves on the back and say "we have a very difficult job to do" without doing it. We tackled those two diseases in a forthright way. We did what was required to be done at farm and factory level to ensure that the disease was finally nailed and we got on top of the problem. In the area of TB there are so many weak links from the farm to the factory and to the marts that I am not surprised we are still grappling with the problem of trying to rid the country of this disease. When we think that milk and beef exports are valued to the tune of £2 billion it is a great scandal we have not been able to tackle this problem adequately.
As I said, the most disturbing aspect is that the Government will not openly admit the fact that they capitulated to the Department of Finance when they were looking for savings and cuts. They told the Department of Finance they could take a few million pounds from the disease eradication programme which could be put back for a few years. This year the Minister, Deputy Deasy, gave a commitment that if there were savings in any areas of his Department he would allocate those savings to this programme. There has been a saving of £3.5 million under the farm modernisation scheme. This commitment has been reneged on and those who are operating the disease eradication programme are left without money.
I support the Fianna Fáil motion and I want to say to the Government that they should be ashamed of themselves because of the way they handled this matter and particularly because of the way they handled the number of aspects I dwelt on, especially the position of those unfortunate young veterinary surgeons who are the casualties of this unsavoury business.
I would like to support the motion before the House which reads,
That Dáil Éireann aware of the current lack of progress in the eradication of bovine tubercullosis, condemns the Government's failure to implement the scheme in an effective manner and calls for urgent action to remedy the situation.
I am absolutely horrified and disgusted at the amendment which has been put down by the Government, which reads:
Dáil Éireann notes that, notwithstanding the constraints imposed by the budgetary situation, the Government's programme for the eradication of bovine diseases is achieving satisfactory results.
For anyone, let alone the members of the Government, to suggest that satisfactory results were being achieved under the TB eradication programme is nothing short of a disgrace and an untruth. The TB eradication programme has been a disaster and there are two main reasons. One is what was known then as the "vets strike". I believe that it was more of a dispute than a strike. When Mark Clinton was Minister for Agriculture in the mid-seventies this dispute was prolonged over a two year period by a Coalition Government who allowed TB to self-promote itself without any control whatsoever. The then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Clinton, was prepared to sit back and accept this ongoing situation which was costing this country millions day by day. Of course, everybody will be aware that there are two sides to every dispute but when we elect a Government we elect them to govern and create situations where the country's greatest asset would not be decimated. Because of stubborness, carelessness and ignorance that dispute was allowed to continue.
The disease eradication programme which had a reasonable success rate up until then had all of its achievements wiped out. Quite literally, we had to start from scratch again. This country lost millions of pounds every day while Europe and our other customers were watching our cattle herd become more infected day by day. Our disease free herd and our boast of the cleanest food in the world were coming into question. The dispute of the mid-seventies was an absolute disaster.
This dispute was followed by a new one between the present Minister and the vets. The Minister, Deputy Deasy, has had a long record of bad judgment and non-achievement for farmers generally. We should remind him once again that while he has succeeded in widening the gap between the urban and rural populations the position still remains that agriculture is basic to our economy and still employs 500,000 people directly and indirectly. It is by far and away the biggest industry in this country. When agriculture is doing well so too is the rest of the country. When agriculture is down, as is the case at present, so too is our economy and until such time as heed is put on agriculture and a commitment is given to agriculture and until there is a definite policy decision by the Government to support agriculture then and not until then will the country get up off its knees. The prospect of the Government ever making that decision is pretty remote because as sure as night follows day an election is imminent and as sure as night follows day the farmers will not support ever again a Coalition Government of Fine Gael and Labour.
Neither will they support Fine Gael whose liberal and trendy leftists do not have an ounce of common sense between them and who concern themselves with the rights and wrongs of hare coursing as a priority over the basis of our economy, which is, agriculture. It is well known that the Labour Party are anti-farmer in every possible way. They are the party who look for everything for nothing and who recommend that nobody pay for anything. It is well known that Fine Gael who traditionally were supported by the big farmers have now turned their backs on this sector. The damage they have done to agriculture over four years is enormous. Not alone are they messing about with the TB eradication scheme, they have withdrawn many useful services in the agricultural sector. The cattle herd remains static at 6.5 million. Unfortunately, recent trends show a decrease on the graph.
Ireland has the best and cleanest food in the world. This probably comes from the fact we are an island country. Unless we keep proper control we will venture into the unknown. Once we lose that disease free status we will never recover. The greatest asset, advantage and boost those who are involved in marketing can have when selling our foods is that we are disease free and clean. The Government have consistently blamed the farmers, the dealers and the vets for the fact we have not succeeded in eradicating TB. I am saying it is the Government's fault because if the Government cannot govern they should admit it and get out. If the Government are not in control they should do the only honourable thing. On their own admission they are not in control.
The famous publication Building on Reality, regarded by most people as “Garret in Wonderland”, set out a detailed programme on TB eradication.
He is on the rocks, like Charlie.
I do not know about that. Chapter 2.51 of "Garret in Wonderland" states:
The final clearance of bovine TB from the national herd remains one of the most urgent problems facing agriculture. It is evident that despite substantial cost to the Exchequer, little progress towards complete eradication has been achieved over the last few years. Faced with a situation where it is essential to get rid of the disease in order to safeguard our exports of livestock and livestock products, the Government must be satisfied that funds committed to the eradication programme in future are spent effectively.
Chapter 7.36 states:
The Government have also decided to make a fresh onslaught on bovine disease, particularly tuberculosis. Substantially increased funds will be made available for disease eradication.
The final paragraph on agriculture announces the intention to establish a central epidemiology unit in the Department of Agriculture to co-ordinate and assist in the anaysis of disease outbreaks, prevention of disease spreads, etc.
Following the adoption of that now defunct document sufficient moneys were put into the eradication of TB and I must admit, as I have admitted before, that a very successful attempt was made to eradicated TB in 1985. But this year £5 million was withdrawn from the scheme and as a result 60 per cent of herds have not been tested this year. Despite repeated requests, my own herd has not been tested. There are many like me who have disease-free herds and who have co-operated with the Department at all times. Farmers are themselves concerned about TB eradication and I can say with confidence that about 99.9 per cent of them are anxious to see an end to TB because it will be in their own interests to eliminate such a tremendous loss. If the untested herds of this year become infected, obviously infection will grow in those herds. Who then will be responsible for the consequent losses to the herd owners who have at all times acted responsibly? Because of the penny-pinching attitude of this anti-farmer Government, such farmers may at this stage have severely infected herds.
Because of the cut of £5 million this year in the TB eradication scheme, only 40 per cent or 45 per cent of herds have been tested. Four million head of cattle this year will not have been tested. The scheme was designed to eradicate TB from cattle, not to create or maintain employment. The 1,300 civil servants and the 800 veterinary surgeons were not affected, but the cattle were forgotten. This Government of fiscal rectitude have wrecked a good and necessary scheme. When the scheme was so successful last year why should the administration not continue and sustain a programme which was heading in the right direction? We must conclude that agriculture is a very low priority with the Minister for Agriculture and the Government. The feeble answer offered to us is that this Government are reducing public spending, yet they can find £7.5 million to buy Agriculture House at a time when money is so scarce.
The scheme has cost the taxpayers' £1,000 million to date and has operated for 32 years. Taxpayers who are now very scarce in number are paying levels of taxation which would not be accepted in any other country. The least they might expect is that their hard earned money should be utilised for productive purposes. The stop-go attitude referred to by my colleague has been a scandal. Undoubtedly taxpayers' money is being squandered. We are assured that to date this year only 35 per cent of cattle have been tested. How can any individual or group justify that level of testing in this, our greatest national income earner, the cattle herd? How could anyone who had any appreciation of farming allow this to happen? Last year we applauded the efforts being made when 10 million cattle were tested in 10 months. The complete herd was tested, the reactors were tested and some cattle were retested. The scheme was actually coming to grips with the problem. Veterinary surgeons and farmers were becoming confident, but this year all the good work of last year was destroyed.
The Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, said last night that two rounds were carried out in two years. Deputy Hegarty was not telling the truth and he knows it. He is one of the few people on the Government benches with any appreciation or knowledge of agriculture, having been a real farmer himself. The two rounds suggested by him took into account last year's record and added the previous year's activity which stood at about 70 per cent. The numbers added up but many of the cattle had been retested. In fact about 2 million cattle were not tested in 1984. The Minister should not allow himself to be bullied into a situation with which he does not agree.
One must question the whole approach to the scheme. I know of farmers whose herds have consistently failed the TB test, at enormous cost to those farmers and to the State. The Department should set about discovering why such herds fail continually. It is well known that TB is transmissible between animal and human, yet we have this haphazard, will-nilly approach. Why have the Department not considered more seriously the source of the problem? If the source of the disease is located then surely it can be eliminated. While we go on ignoring the cause we cannot expect to make satisfactory progress. We must immediately set up a department within the Department of Agriculture to attack this problem. Was it badgers who caused the problem or was it an infected house or a slurry pit? We will still be asking those questions next year unless this issue is addressed immediately. We had the graduates here to do the job but it seems that it is better to export our young, educated people to work elsewhere rather than to keep them at home. Of the 100,000 people who have emigrated in the last four years, I wonder how many have degrees? The TB test is 80 per cent accurate but if a full round of every herd is carried out every year and a follow-up of reactors, that other 20 per cent will be reduced and the continuation of an intensive campaign will eventually root out this terrible menace.
The Minister for Agriculture has disgraced himself and Irish agriculture in so many ways since he took office, we would all like to see him redeem himself at this late stage by ensuring a proper programme for TB eradication. His time is very short.
Deputy Sheehan must conclude at 8.30 p.m.
Listening to the Oppositon speakers blowing hot air in the Chamber last night and again tonight, one would think that the Government had ignored the dreadful disease of bovine tuberculosis.
They have.
Do the Opposition speakers realise that £26.2 million were spent this year on the eradication of the disease? In fact the 1985 round of testing——
What about the civil servants and the pensioners?
——which began in June 1985 and finished in April 1986 was the most comprehensive since the TB eradication scheme began in the ‘fifties.
Seventy per cent of the cattle were not tested this year.
Deputy Byrne, please.
In addition to the full round of testing, special programmes were initiated in areas with the most serious disease problems.
Cork South West. That is the worst.
Yes, Cork South West. It is a sad reflection on Fianna Fáil Governments down through, the years that they did not eradicate the disease long ago.
What about Mark Clinton and his two years?
The national herd was tested one and a half times over a nine month period. At the end of the round in April 1986, 4,629 herds, or 2.49 per cent of the national herd were restricted. During 1985 and 1986 two full rounds of testing were carried out. This is progress in the right direction. It is also gratifying to know that at the end of November 1986 the incidence of TB was reduced from 3.7 per cent to 2.84 per cent in the corresponding period of the year.
Thirty five per cent of the herds were tested.
I am of the opinion that enough research into the disease has not been carried out by the Department and by successive Governments.
That is right.
If we are to annihilate the disease and are genuinely interested in doing so, we must be seen to intensify research in order to eradicate the disease once and for all.
Now the Deputy is talking.
I would appeal to the Minister to do everything possible along those lines. Our farming community are demanding that type of action. They will co-operate in every way with the Department in that respect. Irish farmers are sceptical of some decisions made by Departments outside the Department of Agriculture, in the fight against TB. For instance, it is a well-known fact that farmers who are compelled to depopulate their herds completely find the return which they get for reactors is assessed by the Revenue Commissioners as farm income for tax purposes instead of being classified as money for replacement of stock. This anomaly should end. The position should be corrected immediately. Would the Minister for Agriculture have a word with his counterpart in the Department of Finance to see that this money realised from the sale of reactors is not held against the farmers for tax purposes?
John Bruton is the man.
The Government will take Deputy Sheehan on the same road as Alice Glenn.
The Department should tighten up the regulations re transport of reactors. Trucks should be disinfected thoroughly after transporting reactors to the factories. Deputies Hugh Byrne and Seán Byrne——
Thank you.
——talk about Fine Gael's record in agriculture.
A disaster.
What was Fianna Fáil's record in agriculture? Was it not Fine Gael that laid the foundation stone for a successful agricultural industry——
A tombstone.
——in 1923 following the recommendations and views of the late Paddy Hogan, then Minister for Agriculture with his slogan of "One more cow, one more sow and one more acre under the plough"? What did we see in 1943? What contribution did the Fianna Fáil Party make to building up the national herd when they skinned the calves and sold them for a shilling a piece? That was their contribution to the building up of our agricultural industry.
Good man, Paddy.
What did their Minister for Agriculture do when the farmers walked from Bantry to Dublin — the man who is now leader of their party? He left them lying on the cold sidewalks of Dublin city and would not even talk to them. This is the history of those years.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies, please. Would Deputy Sheehan please conclude? His time is almost up.
I am amazed that the speakers opposite had the audacity to come into the House to criticise our Minister for Agriculture who has worked so hard——
What about the pensioners?
——who has worked so hard and fearlessly in the EC to bring home a major package of grants.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Sheehan to conclude.
Are the speakers across the way aware that £90 million of headage grants will have been paid out to the farmers before Christmas night this year?
What about the pensioners?
The Deputy's time is up. Would he please conclude?
I have no doubt about it, our Minister will complete the job he has set about doing.
The destruction of agriculture.
A Deputy
There are only ten days left.
We shall see that once and for all TB will be eradicated.
Time, Deputy Sheehan. The Deputy has gone over his time.
Facts speak louder than words.
Will Deputy Sheehan sit down? His time is up. I call on Deputy Reynolds to conclude the debate peacefully.
We heard some of the facts from Deputy Hegarty, or Deputy Sheehan, is it not?
The Deputy is calling me Deputy Hegarty now.
Between all of them they are erecting a tombstone for Minister Deasy every time they get up to talk. They talk about the marvellous financial packages that the Minister brought back from Brussels. I could best describe them as a set of lucky bags. Take your dip and you might be lucky and you might not; that is about the size of it. I thought at the beginning that we would be at one with Deputy Sheehan when he started saying that one of the reasons for the failure of the TB eradication scheme was the lack of research. If he continued in that vein we would have supported him in full here. That is one of the basic reasons.
I ask the Minister to explain to this House why An Foras Talúntais, which is one of our best research units, was not involved and will not be allowed to be involved in research into this area? Rather do the Government try to fool the farming community by having two part time researchers in a research laboratory in Adamstown. What do they expect them to do? Do they not consider that this disease problem is of much significance to the agricultural industry, the farmers and the national economy? This has baffled everybody. In relation to that research unit, it is ironic that they are told to sell three of their research farms to try to get money for the Exchequer. If that is not the greatest indictment of a Fine Gael Minister and a Fine Gael Government in relation to what Deputy Sheehan believes should be carried out in research, what is?
This scheme was started 32 years ago. It is not true to say, as the report of the Committee on Public Expenditure says, that no progress has been made. Very significant progress was made. The level of disease was something in the region of 17 per cent and it got down to approximately 2.7 per cent in the late seventies. The hard core was left. What I believe went wrong then and since is that we got down to the hard core but followed the same system, the same scheme, the same procedures, to try to eliminate that hard core as we did when there was high prevalence. The system as we now have it was good enough then but it is not good enough now. That is the reality. We are dealing with a germ that is so strong that it can live for two years in cement and for a lifetime, forever, in timber. That is the sort of germ we are trying to deal with. We are carrying on the same system and hoping for results which will never be achieved. Until proper research is undertaken to determine the source and how the germ spreads, there will not be a cure.
The Department, the Minister, the veterinary profession and farmers must all take a positive approach in relation to the disease and adequate finance should be forthcoming to see that this is done. At present, there is a stop-go policy although everybody was behind the Minister for Agriculture when he introduced a new plan to eradicate the disease and to commit the necessary funds to it. Ten months later, there has been a cutback of £4.5 million. The great expectations in relation to the scheme were destroyed overnight by the stroke of a pen. It is very easy to cut funds if you do not think of the repercussions. The sum of £4.5 million is very small considering that the farmers already contributed £14 million as part of their commitment to try to eradicate the disease. Obviously the Minister had no confidence in the scheme and in his own ability to get anywhere with it.
In County Longford there has been a rise of 12.5 per cent in the level of the disease, the highest ever recorded in the history of animal disease. Yet the Minister said blandly that he recognises that there is a high level of disease but that he will not take special circumstances into consideration. Apparently he does not care about the livelihood of small farmers in County Longford who are under severe financial pressure as a result of non-recognition by him and the Department of the problems in that area. Badgers have been blamed for causing the disease. In the parish of Newtowncashel, 40 per cent of the herds are affected but 16 badgers are snared on the farms with the highest level of disease and not a single one showed any signs of TB. Perhaps they are a contributory factor but they are certainly not the sole cause of the disease. I know levels of disease have been found in some badgers but the biggest badger of all is the Department of Agriculture coupled with the Minister who will not recognise what is happening—
The fault could lie in the mongrel foxes.
In County Longford the incidence of the disease is so high that farmers will be eradicated if something is not done soon. A special pilot scheme should be introduced in that county to try to curtail the level of the disease but my request for such a scheme fell on deaf ears. The Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, visited the area many times but he had nothing to offer them. Busloads of farmers went to Stradone, County Cavan, the other night to take part in the farmers' meeting and they expected the Minister for Agriculture and his top officials to attend; about 400 farmers from Monaghan, Cavan and Longford made the journey only to find that the Minister or his officials had not turned up——
He was hunting badgers.
How could we have confidence in the Minister when he is not prepared to attend a specially arranged meeting to discuss the problems? There is a serious crisis in relation to TB eradication in Longford and a Department veterinary surgeon said on television a few weeks ago that 50 per cent of the herds he had tested were affected. There is no room for complacency.
There are also serious social problems as a result of the disease. A small farmer in south county Longford built up his herd from nothing to 38 milk cows. He did not bring in even one extra animal, he had double fencing and he was very careful to use disinfectant. However, even with all these precautions, the disease got into his herd in the last three months. He was told that there was no money to pay him compensation for the loss of his animals. He did not even care about the money, he wanted them to take the cattle away. The Department finally agreed to take the cattle from his farm and, the day after, he went to Los Angeles where he intends to stay. If the Department intend to compensate him, they can send the cheque to his mother. That certainly is an indictment of the TB eradication scheme.
I also heard the Minister trying to blame factories because they are not interested in reactor cattle and would not pay the price——
They would not pay the price for reactor cattle.
What factory is interested in small cattle? They are a nuisance and the Minister knows that.
The big cattle are a nuisance, too.
The system is not geared to killing cattle which are six months old. What are farmers to do when their small store cattle have been taken away and they are paid buttons in replacement value? They cannot even buy cattle and, if they are in the dairying sector, not alone do they lose their cows, including those in calf but their income to ensure survival is also gone. The Minister is creating very serious social problems all round the country and he is putting financial stress on families who are unable to cope. I realise that the Minister cannot raise the value of compensation overnight but some areas are much more badly affected than others and special schemes should apply to them. The Government have an obligation to ensure that people can maintain their standard of living by giving them adequate compensation. However, the only response to the disease seems to be to test cattle. No one in their senses would go along with a scheme for 32 years, day in day out, when there are no improvements.
Suggestions have been made tonight that the preservation of an empire of 1,300 public servants and 800 veterinary surgeons was more important than the eradication of the disease. The vested interests of farmers were also mentioned. I am not here to apportion blame but a Minister in his sane senses would not carry on in this fashion. After all, the incidence of the disease was 2.7 per cent in the late seventies but it has now risen to 12 per cent in my area and in many other areas also. I repeat what an old farmer said to me — if the Minister does not know where he is going any road will get him there. But he is only whistling passing the graveyard. This man spoke about a Minister who let down agriculture, not alone so far as the bovine tuberculosis is concerned, but in other areas as well. This is a national scandal. The Minister must recognise that a crisis exists and that the taxpayers' are entitled to value for money. It is in the interest of the economy generally and the meat industry in particular that the necessary steps should be taken. Perhaps the Minister would tell us why he will not allow the only decent agricultural institute we have to investigate this problem. There are many questions to be answered and I am sure many more will remain unanswered until this Government get out and the people get what they want, a Government who care about the farmers and rural Ireland. The people want a Government who are not dominated by Pale politics, unlike this Government who can always find money for the cities but never for the small farmers who were, are, and always will be, the backbone of our agricultural community.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 69.
Tá
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Myra.
- Barry, Peter.
- Begley, Michael.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bermingham, Joe.
- Birmingham, George Martin.
- Boland, John.
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Carey, Donal.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlon, John F.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick Mark.
- Cosgrave, Liam T.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Crowley, Frank.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dowling, Dick.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Hussey, Gemma.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kelly, John.
- L'Estrange, Gerry.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Frank.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molony, David.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Brien, Willie.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Prendergast, Frank.
- Ryan, John.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
- Skelly, Liam.
- Spring, Dick.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Blaney, Neil Terence.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P. J.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Dea, William.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Edmond.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Daly, Brendan.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Fahey, Francis.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Foley, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Keating, Michael.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Paddy.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies F. O'Brien and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Browne.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.