(Limerick East) asked the Minister for Finance the Government's policy on pay negotiations in the 26th pay round of (a) the private sector and (b) the public sector other than the public service.
31.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Pay Round Negotiations.
7.
asked the Minister for Finance the Government's pay policy for the 26th pay round in respect of (a) commercial State bodies and (b) the rest of the public service not financed directly from the Exchequer; and the action, if any, the Government propose in respect of any agreements made which exceed these guidelines.
43.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will outline the outcome of his meeting, together with the Minister for Labour, with the Public Service Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 31 and 43 together.
On 18 September last the then Government issued a statement containing guidelines in relation to pay for 1987 for both the private and public sectors. These guidelines continue to have force. They do not in any way conflict with the decisions in relation to public service pay which the Minister for Finance announced in the budget speech. The implications of those decisions for existing negotiating machinery have been the subject of discussions between the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Labour and the Public Services Committee of Congress. At that meeting it was decided to await the outcome of the meeting which the Taoiseach and other members of the Government were to have with the Executive Council of Congress. Subsequently the Taoiseach and other members of the Government met the executive council on 15 April and 29 April to discuss the Congress plan for growth and economic recovery that would cover jobs, tax reform, public finance, pay and social services.
The Joint Government/ICTU press statement issued after the meeting on 29 April gave details of the agreement that was reached on a format for future discussions as follows:
A Ministerial/ICTU group will meet monthly to review progress and make decisions on issues where necessary.
Three joint Government/ICTU working parties will be established to deal with
(1) Employment and Development Measures.
(2) Taxation.
(3) Social Policy.
Pay and other income matters will be dealt with by the Ministerial/ICTU group.
The working parties will be chaired and serviced by the Department of the Taoiseach. The membership on the Government side will be at Secretary level. The membership on ICTU's side will be Executive Council members and Congress staff.
The working parties would meet at least weekly and report to the monthly meetings of the Ministerial/ICTU group. It is envisaged that the discussions would be completed by end-September.
The Government attach considerable importance to the success of these discussions and of the similar meetings which are being arranged with the other social partners. Deputies will appreciate that in view of the very delicate nature of these discussions it would not be appropriate for me to make any further comment.
(Limerick East): I would like to thank the Minister for Foreign Affairs for his reply. I appreciate that the Minister for Finance cannot be present today as he is abroad on important business and I thank the Minister for stepping in and giving such a detailed reply.
If one takes the pay guidelines together with the allowance of free electricity units as negotiated in the ESB agreement, the pay award is between 6.5 and 7 per cent in real terms. In view of that, could the Minister state the Government's position on the guidelines being topped up by benefit in kind awards like free telephones, free lottery tickets, no requirement to pay service charges for local authority workers? What is the Government's position on the guidelines being topped up to the tune of 3 per cent or 3.5 per cent by benefit in kind across the public sector?
As the Deputy knows, the ESB position was a particular situation in a particular case and there is no reason for any replication or duplication of that situation in any negotiations with any other State or semi-State bodies.
(Limerick East): Can I take it, therefore, that for the other semi-State organisations and for public sector negotiations other than in the Civil Service there will be no departure from the September guidelines either in percentage awards or in benefit in kind claims?
The September guidelines stand, as I stated very categorically in my reply. I would have expected that we would be ad idem in that respect here as between the last Government's approach and our approach.
(Limerick East): Yes, but the September guidelines——
I want to bring in other Deputies.
(Limerick East): The September guidelines do not deal specifically with benefit in kind. Will the Government tolerate benefit in kind awards which top up the percentages laid down by the September guidelines?
We are staying with the September guidelines. As I have already said, there was a system already in existence with regard to the ESB matter which is not duplicated in other areas. As far as the remaining negotiations are concerned the guidelines as outlined in September will be our guidelines.
What action does the Minister propose to take in respect of agreements outside the pay guidelines, and does he propose to give any directives to the Revenue Commissioners as regards the tax treatment of any such fringe benefits that might be used to top up pay settlements?
The latter part of the question is a matter for the Revenue Commissioners who I am certain have taken note of that aspect of the Deputy's query.
At the meeting between the Minister and the executive council of the ICTU, did the council indicate to the Government that they had or had not accepted the guidelines?
The guidelines have been acknowledged in the agreement by clear implication.
Have the executive council of Congress accepted the guidelines of September 1986 and was that formally conveyed across the table at the first meeting with the representatives of the Government?
We are having a broadening of this question.
As far as the executive council of Congress is concerned, they were immensely helpful——
That is not the question.
——to the whole settlement of this matter. I would prefer to leave it at that, because relations with Congress at the moment are excellent——
That is not the question.
——and will continue to be excellent through a committee system of co-operation and discussion that has been established.
(Interruptions.)
May I ask the Minister——
Order, order.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister has not answered my question.
I will not reply to any mischievous questions.
May I ask the Minister——
(Interruptions.)
Despite——
(Interruptions.)
Order, order.
Can the Minister confirm——
(Interruptions.)
Can the Minister confirm that during the course of those discussions reference was made by the executive council members of Congress——
The Deputy has already asked that question.
It relates to Question No. 43.
The Deputy has already asked that. We cannot have repetition at Question Time.
Was there any reference in the course of those discussions to the fact that 3,500 health workers were being dismissed by the Government as a result of the Health Estimates for 1987? Was there any discussion or reference to that in the course of the Government's meeting with the ICTU on that occasion?
Congress are certainly not taking any responsibility for the wild extravagances of Deputy Desmond as Minister for Health.
Which were attacked as being cutbacks.
(Interruptions.)
I am now being classified as profligate.
A final question from Deputy George Birmingham.
Does the Minister regard it as satisfactory when requested for an authoritative statement of Government pay policy, that he finds himself making reference to the pay guidelines issued by the previous Government as elaborated upon by the Minister for Finance in his budget speech and then as retracted by the Minister for Finance in his television interviews? Does the Minister accept that in those circumstances there is a clear need for the Government to issue a clear statement of their pay policy so that we can all see it?
We have been working through a process which has been established between the Government and Congress. It is only through the fullest consultation and co-operation with our social partners that the Government can develop a process through which results can be shown.
(Limerick East): May I ask a final supplementary?
I will allow a final supplementary from Deputy Michael Noonan.
(Limerick East): May I take it from the Minister's reply that the Government have now decided in principle to move away from individual negotiated agreements and are busily seeking to negotiate a national pay agreement? Is that the burden of the Minister's reply?
The burden of my reply is that we will consult in depth with Congress through various committees that have been established and progress can be made in that direction which I thought would be generally welcomed in the House, particularly by the Labour Party.
A Ceann Comhairle——
Question No. 8, Deputy Proinsias De Rossa.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos.——
(Interruptions.)
I have passed on to the next question, Deputy.
I want to ask a final supplementary.
Proceed, Minister.
I would like to defer to the lady Deputy.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Colley.
The Minister does not seem to have referred to the first part of the question which related to the private sector. Will the Minister please tell us the Government's policy on pay negotiation in the private sector?
The private sector is a separate operation. The main purpose at the moment is to get order into the public sector and it was primarily with that end in view that we have set up these working committees between the Government and Congress.
Question No. 8, please.