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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 3

Finance Bill, 1987: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for Finance on Wednesday, 3 June 1987:
That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Debate resumed on Amendment No. 2:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann notes the contents of the Finance Bill, 1987 as presented, but conscious of the failure of the Bill:
(a) to provide for reforms in the system of taxation;
(b) to alleviate the tax burden on workers;
(c) to halt the growth in the burden of income tax;
(d) to amend the provisions of the recent financial resolution providing for a withholding tax on professional fees paid by the State;
declines to give the Bill a Second Reading".
—(Deputy McDowell.)

This Finance Bill is imaginative, innovative, constructive and will lead to a greater sharing of the tax burden and increased economic activity. There are a number of imaginative features in it. For example, emigrants' remittances are to be free of tax. This is a very important development when there are so many emigrants, particularly in London and the South of England, who can benefit from this provision. I am sure they welcome it and will find it will be of considerable help to them.

Another imaginative scheme is the business expansion scheme being extended to encompass export tourism in addition to the general package on tourism contained in the budget. Another innovative provision is the introduction of the 10 per cent corporation tax rate applicable to export trading houses.

I also welcome the establishment of an international financial services centre at the Custom House Docks site which will create both short and long term employment in that sector and help the development of that whole area. Deputy Yates was very critical of the Minister and his Bill. He felt the Bill contained nothing new or innovative. I endeavour merely to highlight the imaginative approach of the Minister in the provisions of this Bill.

We must remember that the Minister for Finance had three short weeks only in which to prepare his budget, a budget following on from where the Coalition Government had failed, when the Labour Party had run away from the position facing them this year and when there was a very complex financial position, requiring decisive and urgent action. In a short three weeks the Minister for Finance and the Government put the country back on the rails, restored confidence, stopped the outflow of money and brought about a new climate for investment. This Finance Bill and its provisions constitute a continuance of that aim, introducing some of the technical details involved in the budgetary strategy of the Minister for Finance.

Much more work has to be done but you cannot expect to change such a difficult and depressed situation overnight Deputy Yates could only see widespread depression but I ask him and others on that side of the House to recognise the two-pronged strategy which is involved in the approach of the Minister for Finance. The first is to get our finances in order and, secondly, to get on with the job of new production, import substitution and increased exports. These are the two prongs in the Minister's approach and in the approach of the Government. The second element is the one that concerns me, that of new production, import substitution, increased exports and giving a boost to the tourist industry. That is the aspect which the Government are concentrating on at present. The Government and the Minister for Finance in particular have done a very worthwhile job in a very short time.

This year's budget provided for improvements in social welfare payments which, when viewed against the current economic climate, indicate our commitment to improving the welfare of the poorer sections of the community. An increasing amount of our resources is going to finance social welfare. Total expenditure in my area is now running at £2.5 billion per annum, of which the Exchequer contribution is over £1.5 billion. The magnitude of this expenditure has to be borne in mind when proposals for further improvements are considered. Further improvements can only be provided through additional taxation, increased PRSI or economies, or reductions in existing services.

Given the increasing proportion of our resources that is being allocated to social welfare one must address the question of what we can, or more appropriately what we cannot, afford. The financing of social security schemes is under pressure in many countries because of the increasing demand on services and the fall in revenue income. Ireland is no exception to this trend and for this reason we must ensure that all expenditure is used effectively. Programmes are being examined with the overall objective of providing the most efficient service possible at the lowest cost to the Exchequer.

I want to assure Deputies on both sides of the House that I am noting their comments and their views in relation to our programmes for social welfare. I will certainly do my utmost to make them more effective and efficient and better directed. I hope in doing so that I will get the support in the House for the measures which are necessary. All too often Deputies come in here and suggest how moneys should be better directed but when a Minister comes to the House and takes such action they change their tune and do not support it.

In the present financial climate the scope for increases in expenditure was very limited. In this context, the major provision in the budget was for a 3 per cent increase in all weekly payments brought forward to mid-July, at a cost of £30 million this year. This increase will maintain the real level of payments of over 700,000 social welfare recipients and is in line with the expected rate of inflation in the year ahead. It also maintains the significant increases in the level of payments which have been achieved over the last ten years. Over that period there has been an increase of over 44 per cent in real terms in payments to the long term unemployed. Other long term payments have increased by over 50 per cent and short term payments by about 34 per cent. All these are real increases and I might add that it was the increases given by previous Fianna Fáil administrations which contributed most significantly to the general level of real increase which has been achieved over the last decade.

The Family Income Supplement provides support for workers with families who have low incomes and who are only marginally better off working than if they were claiming social welfare benefits. As stated in our Programme for National Recovery, we are committed to this scheme and are reviewing its operation. The budget provided for an increase in the rate of supplement from a third to 50 per cent from July, and also for an increase in the prescribed limits for qualifying for Family Income Supplement.

It is expected that these improvements will achieve an increase in the take-up on the scheme. Some 5,000 families are currently participating in the scheme and it is hoped that this will increase significantly. This is a major improvement in this scheme and will come into effect on 1 July. I hope the scheme will be well advertised and broadcast before that date so that the maximum number of those who are eligible will participate in it. That has been a feature and a problem in recent years.

As announced in the budget, the Government have decided to extend from October 1987 the social insurance treatment benefits scheme to the dependent spouses of qualified insured persons. The scheme includes dental and optical benefits and the provision of hearing aids. This extension is primarily aimed at providing these benefits for wives working in the home. About 300,000 spouses will be covered by the extension.

The extension is estimated to cost £1.5 million in the current year. These costs will be borne by the social insurance fund. Those who will benefit will include dependent spouses of PAYE workers and dependent spouses of insured unemployed persons and of invalidity and old age contributory pensioners. I would like to emphasise that many people on low incomes will benefit from this measure through the extension of the eligibility to the spouse in the home. As we all know, there is a very large number of unemployed persons at present and their spouses will benefit. The spouses of those on invalidity pension and on old age contributory pension will also benefit. There is an attempt at the moment to suggest that this is a benefit principally for people on larger incomes but that is a very false impression that is being conveyed. The spouses of all insured unemployed people will benefit as also will the spouses of old age contributory pensioners.

This is a very positive move by the Government and there is widespread support for it in the Oireachtas and in the community in general. There have been consistent requests for this extension from many groups, particularly those representing women who are working in the home. Many thousands of these women have suffered too long because they have been deprived of access to State-funded services in the past, especially dental services.

The implementation of the extension of benefit to spouses will involve the revision of the formal agreements under which dentists and opticians contract to provide these services to eligible persons. New agreements, providing for the extended eligibility, are being prepared at present and will be sent shortly for signature to the dentists and opticians on the Department's panels. Other dentists and opticians who are not on the Department's present panels may, of course, also apply to enter these agreements and thereby become members of the relevant panels.

When looking at the provisions in the budget and in this Finance Bill we must bear in mind that this is a specific benefit which will be paid to those who pay the full rate of PRSI. These are also the people who pay PAYE.

The Jobsearch programme which was announced in the budget is fully underway. As Deputies will be aware from what I have said already in relation to this programme its purpose is to provide direct support to the unemployed, especially the long-term unemployed, in their search for work.

Up to last weekend 22,300 unemployed people had been interviewed by the National Manpower Service under the programme. Of these, over 5,000 have been referred to job vacancies and to various programmes and schemes. Already 280 have been placed in jobs with employers in the private sector, 1,200 have been placed in Manpower schemes and AnCO training courses and approximately 1,150 are attending four week Jobsearch courses operated by AnCO and specially designed to help participants in their search for work.

Over 5,000 people have been referred to job vacancies and to various programmes and schemes. It will be some time before the outcome of these placements is determined and that information will be coming in week by week. In addition, 1,900 who were called for interview either failed to attend or refused to accept an offer of a course or job. In other word, some people opted out, failed to attend or failed to take up one of the options offered to them. Some of them have stopped signing on and others are having their cases reviewed. Information on these cases will become clearer as the programme progresses.

The Jobsearch programme is a new additional service to the unemployed, especially those who are out of work for some time. It also represents a change in direction for the State agencies in that the resources dealing with the unemployed in these agencies are now being used to actively assist those out of work in their search for employment. The benefits of the programme will increase and will spread more widely as it continues and as it extends to more people.

I should like to thank Deputies for their patience when this programme was brought in on a national basis. Naturally there were teething difficulties at the outset but I gave an undertaking that I would try to ensure that the programme would be as positive as possible, recognising that there were those who would be indirectly affected, that is, people working or people not interested in taking a job. Various people have told me what is happening on the Jobsearch courses. One person was very highly qualified and felt they should not be on such a course. Later they came back and told me it had worked out well in the long run. I would be interested to hear from that person's colleagues on the course. Two gentlemen said they were working and drawing unemployment benefit at the same time, but that they did not want anybody to be told. They said they would do the course and whatever was necessary. Another gentleman said he had been drawing benefit for eight years and that the week he was doing this course was the first week he had been idle. Obviously, as was anticipated, some people will find the Jobsearch programme inconvenient, particularly if they have a job and are drawing unemployment benefit at the same time. This is happening in a number of cases and Deputies are aware of that fact.

The comments from the majority of people undergoing a Jobsearch course is that it is helpful, that it is giving them increased confidence and that while initially they were nervous about entering the programme, once they got involved they found that for the first time facilities, resources and advice were available to them. A question which comes to mind is this: what follow up will there be for those who do not have jobs and want to maintain contacts? That is one of the areas we will be looking at.

I would like to make some comment on the health services. I heard my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, being attacked here this afternoon. The essential underlying strategy in the budget is to get our escalating debt under control, to restore confidence in the economy, to reduce interest rates and to encourage investment. In order to achieve this objective the Government had to take decisive action to improve the public finances. This action has resulted in some economies in the provision of services, but it is essential that the public finances be brought under control if we are to make progress in promoting development and new opportunities for employment and in our programme for national recovery. We have taken many hard and unpalatable decisions. Now we must follow through and ensure that this new impetus and sense of reality is maintained. Once we achieve this control the way is open to achieve our main objective of job creation and national recovery. The Government are now turning all their co-ordinated efforts to this task.

I would like now to turn to the effects of the budget financial decisions on the health services. We explained fully to the electorate that in Government we would take the difficult decisions necessary to bring the public finances under control. We were accused by Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats of not having the will to implement these measures. We were told that if we took corrective action we were assured of their support.

Yet they now say that, on the one hand, public expenditure in the health services must be contained and the Government must face up to and take tough decisions. But when any of the necessary economies are proposed they immediately object. Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats want to have the best of both worlds. They claim that they are responsible in principle, but are obviously not prepared to face responsibility in practice. Their stance in this regard is inconsistent and shameless.

Having got the finances under control we are now planning and implementing our programme for national recovery. We cannot, as a nation, afford to lose control of our financial position again. As a Government we have increased the allocation to the health services by a further £16 million this year bringing total funding of the health services to its highest level ever to £1.314 billion. When one speaks to people outside they are surprised to hear that the health services are getting an additional £16 million this year and that the problems in the health services arise from other causes, one being the additional money which the health services demand and which is regarded in that sphere as being desirable. This includes an increased allocation of £5 million for the health boards. The Government are committed to developing the health services along efficient lines and to ensuring that services are available to all, especially to the weaker sections of the community. This tight budgetary position is the same for all Departments this year, but Health have an additional problem to which I will return later. It is important to emphasise that all Departments were asked to carry their share of the economies this year. They were all subject to financial restrictions.

They certainly were.

The Government's approach is in stark contrast to the proposals put forward by the previous Government just a few months ago.

They are. We now have the abolition of all services. There will be no hospitals for people to go to.

Those proposals included cutting services and imposing charges on the weakest sections of the community. The unemployed, the old and those in need were being asked to foot the bill for health services in 1987 through prescription charges and the abolition of the dispensing service operated by practitioners in rural areas. We have adopted a different approach.

Closing hospitals.

The Deputy will not get away from the fact that the previous Government proposed imposing charges on the weakest section of the community. There is no point in Deputy Flaherty blustering on because her Government proposed placing the burden on those least able to pay.

At least the people would have had a service. They will not have any services now and very few beds for geriatric or psychiatric patients.

The Opposition parties must make up their minds and stop vacillating. They say they want to protect the poor and the Government have protected the poorest in the community in the measures taken by the Minister for Health. The prescription charges would have imposed an extra £16 million burden on those who are the poorest in the country, the medical card holders.

The Minister should deal with facts. A total of £3 million of the £16 million would have been raised in charges.

The people I have referred to are the means tested and officially recognised poor. However, they, the lowest income section of the community, were to bear the brunt of Fine Gael's proposal for containing expenditure. The Government have had to introduce economies in funding this year as a result of the grave financial problems facing the country. The principal problem of the health services, as distinct from other areas of the public sector, arises from the accumulation of unapproved expenditures over the past two years. The health services overspent £55 million in the past two years for which money was neither approved nor provided by the then Minister for Finance. The previous Government allowed this crisis to develop.

The overruns were £19 million in 1985 and £36 million in 1986. Those were over and above normal overdraft facilities. Those facilities were running at about £20 million and, in addition, the former Minister allowed an additional overrun of £55 million. That is how the problem arose for the health services.

The health boards will not be allowed to overrun this year?

We had to tackle a problem like this in the past and I dealt with it when I was Minister for Health in 1982. In fairness, the Coalition did not allow overruns in 1983 or 1984 but in 1985 and 1986 matters got out of control and unapproved expenditures occurred. I will not go into how that could happen but suffice to say there were two Ministers who had different approaches to this and no action was taken to remedy this serious matter. The Minister for Health in the Coalition Government did not even meet the chief executive officers and the chairmen of the health boards collectively in his four years in office to seek their advice or to jointly tackle the deteriorating financial position. This lack of consultation has contributed substantially to the problems we are now tackling in Government. Health boards were left in isolation with important channels of communication closed off. The Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, has already begun to undo that damage.

The solution to the present problems in the health services lies in effective management with consultation. As a former Minister for Health I found this approach worked well and that health boards and hospitals were willing to co-operate in planned economies.

We in Ireland have one of the best and most professional health services in the world. Our nurses, doctors and medical consultants are in great demand and are highly respected by the medical services in other countries. We have a very high quality health service and the Government are committed to maintaining the quality of that service but there is a price to pay. We cannot have those services for nothing. There are three options open to us: improve efficiency, introduce reasonable charges or reduce the level of services. The Government are committed to maintaining and developing the essential services. Consequently, we must improve efficiency and introduce reasonable charges. The approach being taken by the Government is to ask those who can afford to pay to do so, to make a small contribution towards the cost of the service provided to them.

To cover the cost the Minister has arranged for the Voluntary Health Insurance Board to introduce a special low cost scheme. For the small sum of £27 per year a family with two children can have cover for those charges for a full year. People who are already in the VHI are covered and those who are not can get insurance cover for £27 gross per annum or £17 per annum after tax, at the 35 per cent rate. That amounts to the equivalent of 32p per week per family, an amount which would not even buy a Sunday newspaper which costs between 55p and 65p. We must ask ourselves if we value our health more than one Daily Mirror — it costs 30p — or three cigarettes or a quarter pint of Guinness. The gross cost for a single person is £9.66 per annum.

What about the cost of the Blackrock Clinic and the fact that public patients must wait a long time for operations?

This does not have anything to do with the Blackrock Clinic. We are dealing with a special scheme at little cost, arranged by the Minister for Health with the VHI to deal with the problems the Deputy has referred to. The scheme is unique in that people can join without reference to their previous medical history. If the Deputy was concerned about those people she would be trying to get the message across to them that it is a reasonable scheme. I do not think people realise that it applies to people who have had previous illnesses. It is important to stress that people have until the end of July to join that unique scheme.

What about the people who have to wait a long time to get to the top of the waiting list to have an operation?

Oh, that we could hear ourselves as others do. That should be enough for me to say. I ask the Deputy not to continue with these niggling interruptions which seem to have become a feature of her presence. The Minister should be allowed to proceed without interruption.

It is important to stress that if people join this unique low cost scheme under the terms available to them now they will not have to make reference to their previous medical history. Of course, medical card holders are exempt. I want to get the message across loud and clear to all that they should join this VHI scheme immediately and benefit from this special offer.

It is what is called "hello money".

Is the Deputy saying he does not consider the health of a family to be worth more than the price of a quarter of a pint of Guinness per week? If he does, he and the Progressive Democrats should go back to the drawing board. The efficiency and cost effectiveness of our health services depend on the structure and organisation for the delivery of the service. Traditionally we have had a highly devolved and localised health service and a high content of voluntary hospitals. We have a unique mix of public and private hospitals and voluntary services. This has been one of the strengths of our health services. I know that the Labour Party and others aspire to a national service on the lines of the British model but I am opposed to this. What we have is good and it is the people's wish that we should develop our health services on the basis of a mix of public and private medicine.

This year the Minister for Health had to tackle the financial problems of the health services on the basis of the existing legislation and structures. The Minister made the allocations to health boards on the grounds that such boards and voluntary hospitals would exercise their own powers and judgments in deciding how best to provide services within the allocation. He gave them the guidelines and depended on their management to make the decisions, which is the normal approach.

Section 4 of the Health Act, 1970, provides for the administration of the health services in the State by the health boards established in accordance with regulations made under that section.

Section 6 of that Act sets out the functions of these statutorily established boards. There is no argument, nor can there be, that the boards have the function and responsibility of deciding how best they can look after the health of the people in their respective areas.

Section 31 (1) of the Act provides that:

a health board shall not, save with the Minister's consent, incur expenditure for any service or purpose within any period in excess of such sum as may be specified by the Minister in respect of that period.

That, in essence, is the nature of the basic relationship between the Minister and the boards. If we want to change that, we can only do so through amending legislation. It cannot be changed at will, on a whim, as circumstances seem to require.

It is standard practice.

In so far as corporate bodies such as St. James's Hospital are concerned, their functions, powers and the nature of their relationship with the Minister are broadly the same as with the health boards.

In so far as voluntary hospitals are concerned, each has power to reach decisions through their governing authority, within the directions and guidelines issued by the Minister as the resource provider.

The Minister has now appointed a commission to examine and make recommendations on the structure, organisation and financing of our health services. Their work will provide a sound basis for the future development and control of the health sector. If we want a modern and efficient health service and if we provide new hospitals and facilities, we must also be prepared to review the position of the old and outdated facilities. Our resources are limited and we must use them to the best effect. For example, we must ask ourselves if we can keep sanatoria and fever hospitals open when they have served their purpose and outlived their usefulness. Can we continue to maintain small district hospitals when we have built new and improved facilities to supersede them unless, of course, they fill a specific need? I look forward to the early opening of Beaumont Hospital and the consequential closure of Jervis Street and St. Laurence's Hospitals.

That is long overdue.

It certainly is long overdue but the hospital would have opened long ago——

If the Minister had been able to concede everything he wanted.

It was not like that. We got agreement by providing a small site at a cost to the consultants to have their private facilities there. That is also the case on the south side of the city and it ensures that consultants are on the grounds. It seemed reasonable to provide a small facility for which they pay so that they are available to the public patients——

Will they be much closer now to the public?

As I said, if that facility had been granted to them earlier the hospital would have been opened several years ago. Jervis Street and St. Laurence's would have been sold and the whole package completed. As the former Minister for Health had an ideological hang-up the agreement was torn up and there was a scandalous waste of public finances for at least three, if not four and a half, years.

The total numbers employed in the health services have increased by 15,000 since 1976. This includes permanent, temporary and part time staff and brings the overall total to 62,500 in 1987. Deputies will agree that we cannot continue to expand numbers at this rate. There was an onus on the Government and on the Minister for Health to take control of the situation.

The commission will have to identify priority areas in the health services. For example, the provision of hip replacements for the elderly must clearly rank as a priority——

Hip replacements have been cut from 400 to 200 annually.

Our health services must also be capable of responding to new demands.

A major new challenge to public health is the world wide AIDS epidemic and our health service will have to respond and have the flexibility to tackle problems of that kind. The commission will have to ensure that our health services are capable and sufficiently flexible to meet the current and future needs of the community. This will involve a realistic and objective assessment of our needs rather than the present struggle by various sectors to protect their own interests. The work of this commission will show the way for future development of our health services. I hope that their work and recommendations will be supported on all sides of the House.

The budget and the Finance Bill set out to tackle in a decisive way the country's financial ills. One could not expect the Minister for Finance to deal with all the problems in three weeks. It is very hard to bring in a budget when a former Government have failed to do so; it is an unenviable task and the Minister had an enormous amount of work to do. He has done exceptionally well in the circumstances and will do better now that he has time to study the problems in greater depth.

Since we were last in office in 1982 an extra 100,000 people became unemployed and thousands have emigrated. Our national debt has doubled from £12 billion to £25 billion. Confidence and investment have reached an all time low. It was time for decisive action and the Government have taken the necessary action. The Minister for Finance has got his strategy right. I commend this Bill to the House and look forward to further positive responses from investors and the financial market. The Government are committed to national recovery and will not be deflected from their objective.

First, I would like to make one or two very brief preliminary remarks about this debate and other debates like it. Secondly, against my better judgment, I would like to make one or two observations about the Minister for Social Welfare's speech which we have just listened to and, third, I would like to make some remarks on the budget which was the original intention of my intervention.

We should seriously consider the usefulness of debates such as this, not just from the point of view that they range over virtually every aspect of the work of the Government but also because it is very unclear whether any good comes from them. I strongly suggest that it might be in the interests of every Member of this House — and my colleagues and I will be pushing this view in a formal way — if we were to consider putting a time limit on all speeches. Frankly, it is very hard to listen to people who have had recent experience of senior office lecturing for the best part of two hours and in the process being highly repetitive. As long as the rules remain the same, that is going to continue but we might be well advised to consider whether a time limit of between 20 minutes and 30 minutes would be adequate so that the vast number of Deputies who might be interested in getting involved in these debates, if they were in fact debates, would be afforded an opportunity of doing so.

In effect, there will be only five or six speakers today and as a result, a great number of our colleagues are not interested in getting involved in this kind of debate as they will have no opportunity of making a contribution. That is wrong and, generally speaking, it should not take two hours to put across a point of view. That is what has happened today and other days and it will continue to happen as long as we have this kind of debate. I suggest that the Minister might take up that general point and he will receive agreement for a much more organised and disciplined approach to such a general discussion. In that context, a much more pertinent type of debate might be more appropriate. I listened to the Minister for Social Welfare's speech and it rambled, with respect, over the health services and I am not sure whether that kind of contribution is appropriate on a Finance Bill which is designed to implement the budget. Getting involved in commercial advertising for the VHI seems to be a little wide of the mark.

The Minister's speech was very vituperative and unduly aggressive and I do not understand the reasons why. It required a degree of involuntary blindness on his part or an incredibly hard neck to say some of the things he said. I am disappointed at the Minister, Deputy Woods, as there are other Ministers in the House who have shown a capacity to assume high honours by hard neck stakes but to lecture the Opposition about vacillation and having it both ways goes way beyond what can be taken in silence. The Minister in his speech said, and I quote:

We explained fully to the electorate that in Government we would take the difficult decisions necessary to bring the public finances under control. We were accused by Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats of not having the will to implement these measures.

That is untrue. The reason why it is so brazen for the Minister to say this is that the sharpest and most piquant evidence of the untruth of that assertion was offered prior to the General Election when the country was festooned with posters talking about the now infamous allegation that health cuts hurt the sick, the handicapped and the poor. Yet, he has had the audacity to say that they explained fully to the electorate that in Government they would take the difficult decisions necessary. On the contrary, if the Minister believes that that is the truth then I find it preposterous that he would suggest that and I will not go into name calling.

The full thrust of his and his colleagues' approach prior to the election was that there was an easier option than what the then Government had belatedly advanced and than what our relatively new party were advancing, which was the option of cutting public expenditure drastically which would inevitably cause discomfort to various groups in our society. That is what was propagated by the outgoing Government and by this party. The option which the people bought was not the option of a better way but of a softer, easier way, the way of all miracles and that it could be done by a wave of the magic wand.

It is breathtaking to find the Government turning everything they had said upside down, and in the interests of the country one might be inclined to keep the head down and stay relatively quiet but for the Minister to come along and poke his fingers in our eyes is too much to bear. The Minister is asking us to believe what is just not true. It is not right to say that at any stage the Government, then in Opposition, prior to the General Election said that they would take difficult decisions. On the contrary, the pedigree of the Government, who were then in Opposition, was to duck every difficult decision. Unfortunately, the major signs of relenting on this issue have come from within his own party and if there is to be any crumbling in our collective will to tackle the public debt, it will start on that side of the House. All we are asking for is that there should be no crude attempts to put discipline into the public finances. Allowing for a certain degree of political shenanigans which will always go on in this House, most of us wish the Government success and want them to succeed. It would be wrong to say that we would not be supportive of that broad thrust.

The Minister in his speech said and I quote:

...they now say on the one hand public expenditure in the health services must be contained and the Government must face up to and take tough decisions. But when any of the necessary economies are proposed they immediately object. Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats want to have the best of both worlds.

For the last number of weeks both inside and outside of this House all we have been saying is that if the Minister decides to lop some money off the health budget, then he should deal with those who are delivering the service on the ground in the health boards, but unfortunately the Minister for Health is one of the staunchest defenders of the health services because of his long experience in them. Instead of considering whether they have outlived their usefulness, he has refused point blank to even consider reducing the number of health boards. In due course, he will rue that decision as that is where the problem lies, as well as in the overriding capacity of his Department to oversee expenditure on the ground. That has beeen testified to year in and year out in the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General which the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, is familiar with from his work on the Committee of Public Expenditure. Year in, year out there is ample and repetitive evidence of systematic deficiencies, waste, abuse and downright fraud.

I refer to the 1981 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in which he documented fiddling, and what I am talking about is the changing of dates on invoices and the contriving of accounts. I am not blaming the Minister for that, all I am saying is that he should not lecture us about it. We are not objecting to reductions in public expenditure. The Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Woods, bleated about protecting the poor. When the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacSharry, introduced his budget in this House, there was not one word about protecting the poor and there was no mention of a £100 upper limit. It was subsequently introduced after strong, deliberate and, in some cases, private exhortations from people on this side of the House. When it was pointed out that under no circumstances would the open-ended assault on people who did not have it be supported by this side of the House, suddenly, lo and behold, out of the blue, a £100 upper limit was introduced. This is another crude instrument but it is a token appreciation that there has to be some ceiling for those who may not have the money and for people just over the medical card limit who might perhaps have income of £100, £110 or £120 a week and be asked to pay, in accordance with the budget, an open ended bill for services which they needed. I had not intended going down this road but the Minister for Social Welfare started it. I do not believe that we should take that kind of lecture from him because, (a), we do not deserve it and, (b), as far as I am concerned he has some brass neck to talk in those terms. All we are asking for is a reasoned and carefully considered but determined reduction in public expenditure. If he wants to start on the health services it is not in the area of people on the threshold of medical card eligibility that he should have started, but in the waste and abuse in an unpartisan way which has been illustrated and documented by the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is there and will be there again this year and next year because every Minister has refused to take it on. This Minister, unfortunately, may very well be the same if his remarks to date are anything to go by.

Excuse me, Deputy. You have been given an opportunity of replying to the Minister for Social Welfare. I should like to take you back now to your earlier utterances with which the Chair agrees entirely, in regard to the length of contributions and indeed the range. In respect of the Finance Bill, while the Chair appreciates, and has said before, that there will be references to many matters, ideally — and this is what we must all strive for — contributions should refer to proposed Government taxation, or to taxation which is not there but could ideally be there. The Chair is now asking Deputy Keating, especially in respect of his own earlier contribution, having given him the opportunity of making that reply, to proceed now and give to everybody else the good example of which he is capable.

In respect of what you are saying, if this had come at the outset of the debate this morning we might have all been more inclined to co-operate but as long as the rules are as they are I do not intend to tie my hands. I am responding to the Minister's speech but I shall bear in mind what you say and shall move on. I would welcome a much tighter limit on speakers and when that is introduced by those who have the weight of numbers in this House, be assured that our Party will be the first to comply with those strictures. It would help all of us but in the interim if a Minister decides to introduce a long, rambling, provocative, abusive and vituperative speech, unfortunately we shall feel constrained to respond in like manner.

Early on in the Minister's speech, he talked about a major provision of the budget being a 3 per cent increase in all weekly payments brought forward to mid July at a cost of £30 million this year; that is true. One of the things which interested me about that — and I should like the Minister's comments on it — is that those who would benefit in July are at present being taxed on that increase in benefit and pension which they have not yet received. When a gentleman said this to me a couple of weeks ago I said I did not think that could be true. How could it legally be acceptable that somebody would be taxed on moneys not yet received? After investigation, I discovered that that is the case, that people this week are paying tax on an increase which they have not yet got.

The rationale behind it apparently is that the burden could be spread more evenly across the year, despite the fact that the Finance Bill is not yet law and that the provisions involved, if they are at this stage demanding a tax take off for the Revenue Commissioners, are clearly being used in some very irregular fashion. That is an incredible anomaly from the point of view of taxation. Perhaps the Minister or Minister of State would respond to that in due course. It appears not just anomalous but downright inequitous that this should happen. I cannot understand how old aged or retired persons trying to live on a tiny income can be expected to pay this week moneys they do not have. That to some extent obviously impacts on the so-called 3 per cent increase which has yet to be paid.

The Minister for Social Welfare has words of praise for the Jobsearch programme. I want to refer briefly to this. There are again reports and documents in his and other Departments concerning the need for co-ordination and integration in the various agencies already involved in trying to assist people in the area of finding jobs and of training. The Minister deduces that there are 280 people placed in employment arising out of this initiative, 1,200 in Manpower schemes and another number in various AnCO courses. The clear implication obviously if this Jobsearch scheme has worked to some extent, is that the existing agencies in the way that they were organised were not successful to the extent that this Jobsearch scheme has been.

All the Jobsearch scheme is is an interview and a referral. It does not involve anything new or magic. What it may involve is what should have happened long ago, that is, a co-ordination of the various data bases involved in the overlapping and duplicating processes at present used by AnCO, National Manpower, the Youth Employment Agency, CERT and anybody else with whom people looking for work come in contact. Each individual agency does the same assessment of the candidate and in some cases may ask a question or two slightly different but, basically, they re-invent the wheel in relation to each individual applicant. This is the concept of each agency basically acting as an independent republic. If the scheme has worked I am pleased but I have some doubts about that. The question then is, why did those agencies at present charged with doing that job not do so? Obviously, some corrective action should be undertaken there.

Later in the Minister's speech he said that the essential underlying strategy in the budget is to get our escalating debt under control, restore confidence in the economy, reduce interest rates and encourage investment. Surprise, surprise. We would never have guessed at getting your escalating debt under control by borrowing £1,200 million for your budget. Restoring confidence in the economy is a wish list approach to financial management with which we would all agree. We are all against sin most of the time; we are all in favour or curbing spending, reducing expenditure and reducing taxation. This sounds like a litany of clichés. It is a little trite of the Minister to talk in that simplistic way to us.

The Minister then talks about the difficult decisions to be taken. Lectures in time will make up the Government's minds on that; they may have done so already. The budget may now have brought full circle an overwhelming political consensus in this House that there are no more easy options but there were up to the introduction of this budget. If you doubt that, have a word with people in the construction industry or with people in the health services who believed that if they could get rid of the big nasty Coalition Government the days of wine and roses were just around the corner. Suddenly lo and behold, it is not roses but thorns they are getting and the wine is not very good wine but rather low class plonk. They now know that there is no refuge except perhaps by way of all of us collectively not abusing each other but working to see if we can in a concerted way give some leadership in this House and decide that there must be limits to expenditure. The Minister said many people were surprised that there was an increase in expenditure in the health services this year. If they are surprised it is because he has not done his job properly. It is no more complex than that. The Minister and his colleagues and the Taoiseach, too, sit there silently, taciturn, refusing to answer questions, or to tell people the facts. If people are surprised it is a measure, not of any problem created by the Opposition but of the failure of the Minister and his colleagues to communicate the facts. It is no use slagging us on this side of the House when he would be better off addressing the public and dealing with those issues. People are surprised because the facts of economic life have not been explained to them and because they do not believe that a party who promised everybody they would refrain from doing everything the outgoing Government were threatening to do, could suddenly realise there is no big crock of gold at the end of the rainbow.

The Minister said the Government are committed to developing the health service along efficient lines and to ensure that services are available to all, especially the weaker sections of the community. The health boards and the Department, in some cases, are in violation of their statutory responsibilities to people who do not get the services to which they are legally entitled.

Debate adjourned.
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