asked the Minister for Education in view of the new guidelines for class sizes announced on 26 November 1987 and the deferring of any implementation of Circular 20/87 until September 1988 the reduction in savings at primary level estimated to follow from these changes; and the way in which she intends to find the shortfall.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Primary School Pupil-Teacher Ratio.
47.
Circular 20/87 announced changes to the arrangements governing the staffing of national schools which provided that posts would be discontinued from 31 December 1987 where schools did not comply with the criteria set out in the new schedules governing the retention of staff for the four consecutive quarters ending on 31 December 1987. Under the terms of the Rules for National Schools, eligible teachers whose posts are discontinued in such cases may opt for inclusion on a diocesan or other approved panel to enable them to secure appointment to alternative posts in national schools, and they continue to serve with pay in their original schools while awaiting redeployment. As the bulk of vacancies in schools occur when teachers leave at the end of the school year, the measures announced in the circular were costed on the basis that teachers on the panel would not be redeployed to other schools until September 1988 and that there would be no major impact on the staffing of schools until the end of the 1978-88 school year. Accordingly, deferring the implementation of the circular until after June 1988 does not materially affect the calculations in the 1988 Estimates.
I have announced the establishment of a Primary Quota Review Committee which will examine cases where particular difficulties are caused by the implementation of the circular. It may emerge following the recommendations of this committee that in cases certain posts may be retained which would otherwise be discontinued, and that as a result an element of the savings anticipated in 1988 may not be realised. However it would not be appropriate to pre-empt the work of the committee by attempting to quantify in advance the likely number of such posts and the cost of retaining them in schools.
Before I ask the supplementary questions, I want to say it is not my intention to raise the temperature here at all. I believe it is important at this point that I should ask the Minister in view of the impending mass marches during the next few weekends by parents, the demonstrations and meetings that are scheduled, the alarm and confusion that there still is in the education system and the fact that the front page of The Kerryman carries an assertion,, which Deputy Spring revealed earlier today, that the circular has been withdrawn on the Minister's word to him, would the Minister now confirm that circular has been withdrawn?
That is not on the front page.
I have not seen the front page of The Kerryman. Neither did I say anything to Deputy Spring about any circular being withdrawn.
Deputy Foley.
No, I did not say anything to any particular Deputy. The circular remains in place. The Quota Review Committee will go into action on the implementation of the circular as at the end of the school year 1987-88. Again I appreciate that Deputy Hussey does not wish to raise the temperature but the fact is, I am not responsible for some of the things which appear in newspapers.
May I ask if the Minister issued an unheaded piece of paper to all the Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party dated 1 December concerning an action committee on the new Primary Quota Review Committee?
We engaged——
Do you deny it?
I shall not deny anything. We have engaged, as is normal for all political parties, in very intensive discussions with our own backbenchers. Indeed from time to time we read in the newspapers the contents and the course of these discussions with one's own backbenchers which are a very important part of the political process in a democracy. In the course of such a meeting I gave information on the Primary Quota Review Committee and might I also add that on last Thursday night on "Today Tonight" there was a very full 20 minute discussion on the Primary Quota Review Committee. I am very happy to announce also that I said it on Tuesday night on the Adjournment Debate when a very full reply was given to Deputy Michael Higgins, the Labour Party spokesman on Education. There is no hidden motive in the whole affair.
But the Minister did not answer my question.
A final supplementary.
My final question is divided into two small parts. (1) I want to ask the Minister if she will now include the National Parents' Council in any review of the primary system or in any quota review committee, both of which have been announced in recent days by the Minister? (2) I wish to ask whether the Minister considers it a sound educational policy to have decisions about class sizes being made on an arbitrary basis with the assistance of representation from political parties, instead of the normal scheduled arrangements where schools know exactly where they stand?
With regard to the first part of the question, the involvement of the National Parents' Council, I shall be meeting with the National Parents' Council this evening, an arrangement made some months ago. I understand we will be discussing that matter.
That does not answer my question.
I will be discussing the matter with the National Parents' Council within an hour. With regard to the second part of the question on political parties, the only circular which has issued to schools is Circular 20/87, which will be deferred until the end of June. As my earlier answer to Deputy Hussey made plain, the savings or the amounts of money to be so found under that heading in the primary school sector were already dependant upon very minimal changes coming in before the start of the school year in September 1988.
May I say that I require very much the co-operation of the Members, especially the two Members concerned, Deputies Gemma Hussey and Mairin Quill to enable me to dispose of the three remaining questions nominated for priority within the prescribed time. I propose to proceed to deal with other business, the Extradition (Amendment) Bill, 1987, at 3.45 p.m. Therefore I would wish for co-operation in respect of Questions Nos. 48 to 50, inclusive, if these questions are to be reached at all.
48.
asked the Minister for Education if, in view of her modification of the disimprovement in the primary pupil-teacher ratio announced on Thursday, 26 November, she will now modify the disimprovement of 11 per cent in the vocational schools pupil-teacher ratio which is more severe than the original primary cut-back.
In relation to the first part of the question I would refer the Deputy to my statement of 26 November concerning the guidelines for the implementation of Circular 20/87. The Statement is being circulated in the Official Report.
With regard to the second part of the question, in my Estimates speech on Education in the Dáil on 22 October last I spoke of the need to bring all second level schools on to the one pupil-teacher ratio.
I know that Deputy Hussey, when she was Minister, asked vocational education committees to move between the pupil-teacher ratio bands of 17 and 19 and to reach the band of 19 as quickly as they could within an allocated timescale.
Following is the statement:
Guidelines for the Implementation of Circular 20/87.
Primary Quota Review Committee
The Minister for Education, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, wishes to confirm that she is engaged in carrying out a major review of the primary school sector of education, including the establishment of a Primary Quota Review Committee.
The purpose of the committee will be to see how, within the limits of expenditure laid down in the 1988 Book of Estimates, the best possible arrangement can be made in the deployment of teachers, the size of classes and the organisation of our primary schools generally. In particular, the committee will concentrate on any difficulties which may arise in certain schools following the issue of Circular 20/87 where the implementation of the circular would create unacceptably large classes.
Two representatives of the School Managers' Association and two representatives from the Irish National Teachers' Organisation will be invited to act on the committee, together with two officials from the Department.
Guidelines
It will be the responsibility of the committee, to act under the following guidelines: (1) problems will be examined on a school by school and class by class basis; (2) the average class size will be in the low thirties. The maximum size of any class will not exceed forty. Where, because of exceptional circumstances, it is impossible to adhere to this limit, the permission of the review committee and the Minister would be required; (3) the effects on schools of population changes will be taken into account; (4) special consideration will be given to schools in disadvantaged areas; (5) special consideration will be given to the remedial needs of schools; (6) existing remedial posts will not be affected by the changes under Circular 20/87, nor will special posts in disadvantaged areas; and (7) class sizes must be appropriate to the actual size of the classroom. Sanction for the retention of teaching posts will rest with the Minister.
General
The principal teachers will be expected under the general direction of the board of management to reorganise class sizes. Individual classes should not in any circumstances be substantially larger than the average in the school.
In order to give the review committee an adequate opportunity to carry out a thorough examination, no changes under Circular 20/87 will take place before the end of the school year June 1988.
The voluntary redundancy-early retirement circular setting out the conditions under which teachers may opt for voluntary redundancy will issue within a few days.
Expenditure on Education
Total expenditure on education is estimated at £1,184 million in 1988. Of this, £420 million relates to primary education. Over 80 per cent of expenditure is on pay and pensions.
Any costs which may arise from the work of the Quota Review Committee will be compensated for within the limits laid down in the Book of Estimates.
I am sure the Minister is aware and agrees with the fact that her Department have always considered vocational schools to be a very special case, because of the kind of work they do. I would like to ask the Minister, in view of her statement that it would be a good thing to have all second level schools at the same pupil-teacher ratio, what proportion of secondary schools offer senior engineering, building construction, mechanical drawing as part of their work with second level students? A very small number of these schools do so; therefore it is impossible for the vocational schools to operate under this new pupil-teacher ratio without dropping some of these subjects.
I do not have the answer to hand but I gave it in my speech on the Estimates in October and I am willing to furnish it to the Deputy. I am conscious that one has to be precise but I do remember at the time being quite amazed and quite pleased that the number of secondary schools offering building construction, civil engineering, home economics, technical drawing and woodwork — all of the practical subjects — had greatly increased. In many instances there were as many secondary schools offering these subjects as there were vocational schools. It is a great measure of the sense of maturity of both sectors of post primary education that the vocational schools are now offering the full range of practical and academic subjects. In a similar vein the secondary schools, in many instances, are offering a full range of the practical as well as the academic subjects. The precise information for which the Deputy has asked I have, but not with me, and I will furnish it to her.