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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Dec 1987

Vol. 376 No. 9

Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

There are three main elements of the Bill being discussed this evening — measures to counteract employer fraud and abuse, changes in contribution conditions and entitlements and trade dispute provisions.

First, I am introducing a number of measures to tighten up the present legislation in regard to the abuse of social welfare. These measures are directed at employers who are abusing the system or who collude in social welfare abuse by their employees. We have made significant progress in tackling abuse this year and the new powers which I am seeking will close loopholes in the existing legislation. Sections 2 to 7 of the Bill contain these measures.

Second, the Bill gives effect to certain of the measures which were announced at the time of publication of the 1988 Estimates and which have been provided for in those Estimates. These involve mainly adjustments in the conditions for payments for long term disability and in the old maternity allowance scheme. They also include an improvement for disabled old age pensioners in exempting the mobility allowance from the means test. These measures are contained in sections 8 to 11 of the Bill, the second part of section 16 and in section 18.

Thirdly, the Bill provides for a significant improvement in the conditions for entitlement to unemployment payments during trade disputes by providing that only persons who are participating in or directly interested in the dispute will be disqualified from receiving unemployment benefit or assistance. The Bill also includes a provision which will enable workers to have their case reviewed by the Social Welfare Tribunal in the light of new facts or evidence. These provisions are included in sections 13 and 14.

The remaining sections of the Bill contain a number of provisions designed to rationalise and improve other aspects of the social welfare system.

At the outset I should like to say a few words about social welfare fraud and to put this issue into context. Total expenditure in the social welfare area in the current year is over £2.6 billion, the equivalent of £7 million for each day of the year. Each month, almost three million payment transactions are made. The number of persons in receipt of unemployment payments each week is in the region of 230,000. Seventy-three thousand persons receive disability benefit payments, 238,000 persons receive old age or retirement pensions and almost 100,000 receive widow's pensions.

There is conclusive evidence that a certain amount of fraudulent claiming exists. Invariably, however, when action is taken to combat these abuses there are those who will suggest that those in need are being harassed or even discouraged from claiming their legitimate entitlements. There can be no doubt that the vast majority of claimants have a legitimate entitlement to their payment. I am very conscious of my responsibilities, as Minister for Social Welfare, to ensure that such claimants receive an efficient and a courteous service. I am equally conscious, however, of my responsibilities to taxpayers generally to ensure that any abuses of the system are rooted out and dealt with.

Estimates of the true level of abuse vary, but our indicators suggest that between 5 and 10 per cent of claimants to unemployment and disability benefit payments abuse the system at some stage of their claim. This is not, of course, the same as saying that 5-10 per cent of expenditure on those benefits is defrauded but refers to the number of claimants who engage in abuse at some stage in their claim. This year, for instance, we are well on target to achieve savings in excess of £36 million within my Department through a series of measures, including some to eliminate fraud and abuse and others to achieve more effective use of resources, for example, by providing opportunities for the longterm unemployed.

I am committed to continuing this work to reduce abuse to the greatest extent possible and I am satisfied that this can be done without adversely affecting in any way the quality of service provided to legitimate claimants. In fact, it must be said that it is to the advantage of legitimate claimants that this be done as the elimination of fraud and abuse will serve to maximise the resources available to those genuinely in need.

In this connection I was glad to be able to announce earlier this afternoon that the alleviating payments being paid to those affected by the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986 — which the Government has already extended to the end of 1987 — are being further extended to the end of March next at a cost of approximately £5 million. The eventual phasing out of these payments will be considered in the context of the budget.

When I addressed the House in October during the debate on the 1988 Estimates I made known that the Government had decided to pursue an intensive campaign against fraud and abuse. A great deal of work has already been done in this area particularly in dealing with abuse of the unemployment and disability benefit payment schemes.

One of the most successful measures taken was the establishment of the Department's external control unit. The principal activity of this unit, which now has a complement of 19 staff, is that of reviewing claims to unemployment payments, usually by way of interviewing claimants. Because of the very close liaison between this unit and other divisions of my Department, claimants are interviewed where, in the light of the specific information obtained, there is reason to believe that the person may not have a legitimate entitlement. In this way, legitimate claimants are not affected and, at the same time, the activities of the unit are much more productive. Of 8,329 claimants called for interview by this unit in the current year to review their entitlement to unemployment payments, 1,255 ceased claiming, of which 915 did so voluntarily. The overall savings in 1987 arising from the activities of this unit are estimated at £2.7 million.

There is also a special investigation unit within my Department assigned the specific task of the investigation of allegations of concurrent working and signing. This unit has been strengthened considerably in recent years and now consists of 42 staff. Of 4,558 claims to unemployment payments investigated by the unit up to August of this year, 1,227 were disallowed. The savings in 1987 arising from the overall activities of the special investigation unit are estimated at £4 million.

One of the other significant measures taken in this area during the past year was the strengthening of my Department's internal audit unit. This unit reviews on an ongoing basis the systems of internal control in the various branches of my Department so as to ensure that they are both adequate and functioning effectively. Where such reviews bring deficiencies to light remedial action is taken. The continuing activities of the internal audit section are designed to bring about an overall improvement in the level of efficiency of the administration of the various schemes.

In any organisation as big as my Department it is necessary to constantly review the internal control procedures in order to ensure that the scope for mistakes or deliberate fraud is minimised. There is always the danger that basic control procedures may be allowed to falter in the continuing effort to ensure that clients are paid as quickly as possible. The possibility of internal fraud must also be recognised and measures taken to prevent it. There have been a small number of instances of internal fraud in the Department. All such cases are dealt with in the same way as for external fraud, including prosecution.

During recent years there has been a massive and rapid programme of computerisation within my Department which has given rise to significant benefits. In July this year I signed a contract for £2.6 million worth of additional computers for the Department, mainly for the employment exchanges and to implement my plans for more localised delivery of services to claimants. Computerisation in the area of unemployment payments and the greater integration of data across the schemes, which computerisation facilitates, will lead to improved control measures to prevent abuses such as duplicate claiming. At this stage the preparation and calculation of all unemployment assistance claims in the Dublin area is computerised and work is proceeding on unemployment benefit claims. This will be completed by mid1988. At the same time computerisation is being extended to a number of centres outside Dublin, notably Cork, where unemployment assistance claims will shortly be going on computer. It is my intention to have a telecommunications network linking all the Department's local offices over the next four years. This ongoing programme of computerisation will ultimately facilitate the cross-checking of applicants for all schemes administered by my Department.

In the disability benefit scheme, the transfer of the operation of the system from the central computing service of the former Department of Public Service to my Department's computers has resulted in greater flexibility of operational control and development of the system. It has also enabled the computerisation of the medical referral system. This has allowed greater selectivity in the referral of claimants to medical referees. The manual system of processing referrals was slow and cumbersome and, as a result, it was not possible to refer many short-duration cases for examination. In addition to the improved efficiency achieved through the computerisation of the system, the number of medical referees has been increased from 18 to 22 and computerisation of the system has allowed greater selectivity in the referral of claimants to medical referees. Of 88,000 claimants referred to a medical referee this year, 19,000 were found to be capable of work and 3,000 ceased to claim benefit. A further 19,000 persons failed to attend for examination and, except in a small number of cases where there was good reason for their failure to attend, they were liable to a nine week disqualification and a second referral.

These control measures have helped to bring about a significant reduction in the number of people claiming disability benefit this year. The numbers claiming each week have in fact gone down from almost 82,000 early in the year, February, to 72,500 in December, a drop of over 9,000 a week. There has been a saving of around £8.6 million on disability and invalidity payments this year.

Further measures in the campaign against abuse of the system will be taken in the light of the final report of the independent consultants who have examined the whole range of controls and administrative practices applied to areas where we are most at risk. The reports of the consultants highlight a number of policy issues which need to be addressed and contain specific recommendations relating to organisation and procedural matters. Work on a detailed plan on foot of the consultants' findings has already commenced and the services of the consultants are being utilised in this work.

My Department have made and will continue to make a determined effort to achieve the maximum deterrent effect by following a vigorous programme of pursuit of fraud cases through to prosecution. In the case of disability benefit for instance, 125 cases have already been referred to the Chief State Solicitor's Office for prosecution this year as against 37 in all of 1986. Of the 45 cases finalised in court this year, there were 12 suspended prison sentences and 17 prison sentences in total. In one case a sentence of 12 months was imposed and in the other cases the sentences ranged from three to seven months.

I am concerned to ensure that unscrupulous employers who abuse the social welfare system will be pursued through to prosecution with the same vigour as are fraudulent claimants. While the majority of employers do not engage in such practices, there are others who do. For example, we know that some unscrupulous employers collude with employees to facilitate fraudulent claiming of unemployment and disability benefit payments. Certain cases have even come to light where the employer provided transport for employees to the local employment exchange. In other instances, employers refuse to co-operate with or they may even obstruct social welfare officers in carrying out their investigations, for example, by delaying the inspector's examination of records of employees and their social insurance contributions. My Department already have powers to take prosecutions in cases of collusion or obstruction and there are existing penalties of fines up to £1,000 and/or 12 months imprisonment on summary conviction and fines up to £3,000 and/or two years imprisonment on conviction on indictment for employers who are found guilty of these offences. However, only a limited number of such prosecutions have been taken against employers in the past. I intend to ensure that these powers will now be used to the greatest possible extent to prevent abuse.

Similarily, I am determined that effective action be taken against employers who withhold or delay payment of PRSI contributions. While the primary responsibility for the collection of contributions rests with the Revenue Commissioners I plan to ensure that the inspectorate of my Department will have a sufficiently active role in this area. The investigation branch of my Department already carry out periodic surveys of employer's records so as to ensure compliance with the PRSI provisions. In the current year to end-November underpayments by over 2,250 employers, totalling some £3.4 million have been detected and reported to the Revenue Commissioners. Certain changes in administrative practices made in recent times will result in additional resources becoming available for this purpose. Recently also a joint inspection unit drawn from the Revenue and Social Welfare inspectorates was set up on a pilot basis to investigate enterprises which are known to have a high incidence of tax and social welfare fraud. The pilot scheme is being evaluated at present to see how this type of joint action can be developed next year. Furthermore the ongoing programme of computerisation to which I have referred will significantly increase the effectiveness of the inspection branch in detecting instances of abuse by enabling much more comprehensive information relating to the employer to be compiled in advance of the survey. This will help to ensure better targeting of resources in this area.

A number of areas have been identified however, in which existing powers to pursue employers who abuse the system are inadequate and need to be strengthened. Sections 2 to 7 inclusive of this Bill are designed to meet these requirements.

In many cases where fraud comes to light the employer and the employee collude to reduce substantially the period of overclaiming. For example, the working and claiming may have been going on for several years before it is detected but both parties may represent that the employment is only of recent origin. In some instances, employers take on new employees on the specific understanding that the person concerned will continue to draw unemployment payments. The employee gains or perhaps more correctly, the Exchequer loses, through the non-payment of tax and social insurance contributions while the employer benefits through payment of reduced wages and often undercuts his legitimate competitors as a result. This has to stop.

Section 2 of the Bill is designed to discourage such collusion by enabling the Minister to make regulations requiring employers to notify the Department of the commencement of employment for each new employee. It is not intended that employers will be required to notify the Department of the commencement of employment in every case. The circumstances in which notification shall be required and the manner of notification is to be prescribed in regulations. As this provision is designed to counter the activities of unscrupulous employers every effort will be made in drafting the regulations to avoid placing any unnecessary burden on employers generally. For example, it is not envisaged that notification will be required in the case of employees changing employment where the employee produces the appropriate documentation provided by his previous employer. The introduction of this requirement in the case of persons who, prior to taking up employment, were in receipt of unemployment payments will be an effective weapon in the elimination of collusion between employers and employees in fraudulently claiming unemployment payments.

The co-operation of employees is essential if abuse of the system is to be effectively dealt with. It is important that employers satisfy themselves that employees they engage are not at the same time claiming social welfare benefits. This is essentially what section 2 of the Bill is designed to achieve. Another time at which co-operation by employers is necessary is when employees claim benefits under the system. The Department regularly ask employers to confirm details of periods of employment or absence from work through illness so as to verify claims to benefit or assistance. In the case of disability benefit claims for instance, random checks of this nature have proved to be extremely effective in the detection of abuse. For example of 14,000 inquiries sent out to employers to check on persons claiming disability benefit 1,100 cases of possible abuse were revealed and overpayments of £460,000 have been detected to date. This year we have introduced a more effective system of following up these random checks by targeting particular industries. For example, in one major recent fraud investigation where a claimant was in employment during the period in which he was claiming disability benefit, a check of other employees with the same employer established that 22 of them were also working and claiming. Following on this a check on two other employers in the same industry in the same region brought to light a further 155 cases or fraudulent claiming, 177 altogether. A number of successful prosecutions have already been taken and further court cases arising from these investigations are pending. The issue of medical certificates in these cases is also being investigated. This resulted from the new approach adopted.

Most employers co-operate with requests for information to facilitate these random checks and I wish to record my appreciation for the level of co-operation which exists. However, some employers do not co-operate and sanctions are required against those employers who consistently fail to assist in these investigations. Section 3 of the Bill provides for sanctions which can be applied in the case of employers who fail to assist in investigations of claims to insurance based payments and section 4 provides for a similar measure in the case of claims for assistance.

Another aspect of co-operation with employers is in the area of inspection of employer records. Under existing provisions, employers may be required to furnish such information and documents as may reasonably be required by a social welfare inspector for the purpose of investigation of claims. Sometimes it happens that employers delay inspectors in their examination of the required records by claiming that they are held by accountants or solicitors, who, in turn may say that they only hold a portion of the records. Section 5 is designed to counter evasive actions of this nature by imposing an obligation on employers to produce the required records at the employer's registered address or his principal place of business.

Under existing provisions, employers are required to keep such records in relation to the earnings of persons employed by them and the periods of employment. There is no provision in existing legislation, however, specifying the time at which these details should be recorded. While most reputable employers make the necessary entries in their records at regular intervals, some employers fail to maintain any records at all, or perhaps do so long after the event. Where this happens, it proves impossible to determine the true position in relation to such matters as the number of persons employed, the periods of employment, whether correct deductions of social insurance have been made and whether any other aspects of the social insurance scheme are being neglected or abused by the employer, or any of his employees. It also serves to prevent the detection of cases of employees who may also be concurrently signing for unemployment payments.

Failure to record the prescribed particulars on time can mean that if and when the records are eventually compiled, they may not reflect the true position. This can be done for a variety of reasons, such as to thwart an inquiry, to lessen the employer's liability, or to cloak irregularities either by the employer or his employees. Section 6 is designed to overcome these problems by providing that details of earnings and the periods to which they refer must be recorded at or before the time of payment of wages.

Section 7 provides for an amendment so as to empower social welfare inspectors, for unemployment benefit purposes, to enter premises where self-employed persons are, or were, engaged in their occupations. The existing provisions refer only to premises where records relating to persons in insurable employment are kept. In recent years there has been a significant move towards contracting out work which up until now was performed by the employer's own employees, for instance, milk deliveries and the distribution of home fuels. The powers contained in section 7 of the Bill are necessary to help counter abuses such as employees being represented as sub-contractors so as to avoid payment of social insurance provisions in respect of their employees, concurrent working and signing by sub-contractors and failure by sub-contractors to comply with the social insurance provisions in respect of their employees. This amendment will bring the unemployment benefit provisions into line with those for unemployment assistance.

I would emphasise that the additional powers which are being provided in this Bill are directed at unscrupulous employers and not at those who are running their business in an honest and legitimate way. I value the operation of the system and I would appeal to those employers to maintain this level of co-operation in the future. I want to appeal especially in this regard to those honest employers in industries and sectors in which abuse is known to be prevalent, because only in this way will we together be able to root out abuse effectively.

In regard to changes in contribution conditions the second main purpose of the Bill is to give effect to certain changes in social welfare schemes which were provided for in the Estimates. These include minor adjustments in contribution conditions for certain schemes and a number of changes in the old maternity allowance scheme. In general, these measures are designed to help achieve better targeting of resources. In adopting these measures, the Government were conscious of the need to ensure that existing claimants are not adversely affected and consequently the changes being made will apply to new claimants only.

Sections 8 and 9 of the Bill provide for changes in the contribution conditions for entitlement to certain insurance based benefits. Section 8 provides that entitlement to extended duration of disability benefit, that is, beyond 12 months, for all new claimants from 4 January 1988 onwards, will require 260 paid contributions. These contributions entitle the claimant to disability benefit for as long as he is incapable of work and is under pensionable age. This benefit can continue for some long term claimants for as long as 40 years. Section 9 provides that entitlement to invalidity pension for new claimants after 4 January 1988 will also require 260 paid contributions. Under existing provisions. 208 paid contributions are required for both of these payments.

These measures are designed to achieve more realistic contribution conditions for entitlement to these long term payments by requiring that claimants have a reasonable history of paid contributions. The increased contributions for extended duration of disability benefit and invalidity pension will apply to new claimants only. Persons who make repeat claims on or after 4 July 1988 in the same period of interruption of employment, however, will have to satisfy the increased contribution conditions. A number of changes in this area have been made in recent years and, in fact, the provisions of sections 8 and 9 of the Bill were included in the 1987 budget proposals of the previous Government.

A further change to the disability benefit scheme is contained in Section 16 of the Bill which provides for the introduction of three waiting days from April 1988 onwards for claimants to disability benefit transferring directly from maternity allowance to disability benefit. All new claimants for disability benefit at present must serve three waiting days and this provision merely extends this requirement to cases where people transfer directly to disability benefit, having been in receipt of maternity allowance.

A number of changes are being made to the old general scheme of maternity allowance. There are two schemes of maternity allowance. The old maternity allowance scheme which was introduced under the National Insurance Act, 1911, provided for a payment to insured women for a period of 12 weeks, subject to certain contribution conditions being met. The second scheme, the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment, was introduced by me as Minister for Social Welfare in April, 1981. This scheme, which provides for a period of 14 weeks' payment is available to women who are on maternity leave from work under the Maternity (Protection of Employees) Act, 1981 and who are entitled to resume work with the same employer at the end of the period of maternity leave. This scheme effectively superseded the old maternity scheme for women in employment. In order to eliminate any confusion which may exist, I would emphasise that entitlements under the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment remain in full and are not affected in any way by the provisions of this Bill.

Section 10 provides that entitlement to maternity allowance under the old general maternity allowance scheme for new claims from 4 January 1988 will be restricted to claimants who have at least 13 paid contributions in the governing contribution year. Under existing provisions, a claimant may qualify for the allowance on the basis of only credited contributions in that year. Section 10 also provides that from January next onwards, only contributions in the governing contribution year will be taken into account in determining eligibility for the allowance, as is already the case with unemployment benefit and disability benefit entitlement.

Under existing provisions, entitlement to the allowance may be established on the basis of 39 paid or credited contributions in the last complete contribution year before the beginning of the benefit year in which the claim is made, referred to as the governing contribution year, or in a subsequent complete contribution year, if any, before the allowance is due to commence. For example, the governing contribution year in the case of a claim made in December, 1987 would be the income tax year ended 5 April 1986. If the claimant is unable to satisfy the contribution conditions in this year, however, she may still qualify for the allowance on the basis of contributions in the contribution year, that is, the year ended 5 April 1987. Section 10 provides that from January next onwards, the requirement that the claimant have 39 paid or credited contributions must be satisfied in the governing contribution year.

Section 11 of the Bill provides for the abolition of entitlement to pay-related benefit in the case of all new claims for the old maternity allowance scheme which commence on or after 4 April, 1988. This will not affect the level of benefit payable under the new maternity allowance scheme, which will continue to be related to earnings.

The changes which are being made to the old general scheme of maternity allowance are designed to ensure that only women with a recent attachment to the workforce will qualify for the allowance. Many of the claimants under the old scheme have been signing the register for credits only and claim on the basis of these credits and they have no real attachment to the workforce. The need for the old scheme has, to a large extent, been superseded by the introduction of the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment and I expect that henceforth the needs of women in this area will be met by this scheme.

The Bill also contains a technical amendment relating to the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment. Under existing provisions the maximum amount of the allowance payable is equal to 70 per cent of the claimant's weekly earnings up to the earnings limit prescribed for pay releated benefit purposes, currently £11,000 per year. Interpretation of existing provisions has been questioned however and the purpose of section 12 is to clarify the definition of "reckonable weekly earnings" applied in the calculation of the allowances. I emphasise however that this is a technical amendment which does not affect in any way entitlements under the maternity allowance scheme for women in employment.

Section 13 of the Bill provides for an amendment to the trade dispute provisions, under which persons who have lost employment by reason of a stoppage of work, may be disqualified for receiving unemployment payments or supplementary welfare allowance. This amendment is being made as under existing provisions persons who do not stand to gain materially from a strike by fellow workers may be prevented from obtaining unemployment benefit or assistance and supplementary welfare allowance if they are, for example, regarded as being members of the same trade or class of workers engaged in the dispute. Section 13 provides that persons will no longer be automatically disqualified from receiving unemployment payments or supplementary welfare allowance on such grounds. The only circumstances in which the trade disputes disqualification will apply in future is where the person concerned is participating in or directly interested in the dispute.

Section 14 of the Bill provides for an amendment of the powers of the Social Welfare Tribunal which I established in 1982 as a result of a number of disputes in which a large number of workers were refused unemployment payments. Representations have been made to the effect that it can happen at the time the tribunal is sitting, which often occurs during the actual course of a stoppage, that all the detailed facts and information surrounding the dispute may not be readily to hand. In these circumstances it is felt that the tribunal should have power to review its decision. This amendment is designed to allow the tribunal review its decision where new evidence or new facts are brought to its attention subsequent to the date of the original decision. Under existing provisions the tribunal is only empowered to review an earlier decision where it is satisfied that a material change has occurred in the circumstances of the stoppage of work or the trade dispute which caused the stoppage of work. This amendment will bring the tribunal's powers of review generally into line with those of appeals officers.

The Bill also contains a number of other miscellaneous provisions designed to rationalise and improve aspects of the social welfare system. The provisions of section 15 arise from the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986, as part of the implementation of the EC Equality Directive, and provide for an amendment of the definition of "adult dependant", so as to preclude certain cateogories of person from qualifying as adult dependants. The categories involved are persons who are disqualified from receiving unemployment payments in their own right, by virtue of their involvement in a trade dispute, and participants of certain fulltime AnCO non-craft training courses.

Under existing provisions, persons disqualified from receiving unemployment payments, by virtue of their involvement in a trade dispute, may still qualify as adult dependants. The payment of adult dependant allowances in respect of such persons breaches an accepted and long standing principal that the social welfare code should remain neutral in trade disputes. This problem did not effectively arise prior to the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986 as up until then women could only receive increases in respect of their husbands in very exceptional circumstances. At the same time, as women qualified as dependants of their husbands regardless of whether they were in employment, an adult dependant allowance payable in respect of a woman involved in a trade dispute would have been payable prior to the commencement of the dispute.

The amendment affecting participants of certain full time AnCO non-craft training courses also arises as a consequence of the Equal Treatment Directive. As a general rule, persons in receipt of an income maintenance payment in their own right may not be regarded as dependants. The payment of increases in respect of participants of certain AnCO courses conflicts with the provision. As the rate of payment to participants of such courses was linked to the rate of unemployment benefit payments, it was necessary, following implementation of the Directive, to restructure payments made to participants of these courses to reflect the revised social welfare dependency arrangements. As a result of these changes, a family in which one spouse is in receipt of a social welfare payment and the other is participating in a full time non-craft training course may, through the combination of social welfare and AnCO payments, receive the equivalent of two personal rates of payment together with the adult dependant allowance and one and a half times the child dependant allowance. The effect of this amendment will be to prevent this double payment.

The changes contained in section 17 of the Bill are also related to the EC Directive on equal treatment. The existing provisions provide that, on the death of a person who is in receipt of benefit, the spouse is entitled to payment of that benefit for a period of six weeks after death. While after death payments are regarded as a survivor's benefit and are therefore technically outside of the scope of the EC Directive on Equal Treatment, these provisions are nonetheless affected by the new dependency arrangements introduced in November 1986. The purpose of section 17 is to apply the principle of equal treatment between men and women to the after death provisions by providing that such payments will in future be made where at the date of death the deceased was in receipt of an increase in respect of an adult dependant, whether that dependant was a man or a woman.

Finally, the Bill makes provision for two minor but significant improvements in the social welfare code, one affecting claims to disability benefit and the other relating to old age pensioners. Under existing provisions, a claimant is not entitled to disability benefit in respect of any period of paid holiday leave. This causes a break in the claim where an insured person is on sick leave immediately before a period of paid holiday leave and, as a consequence, the claimant is obliged to serve a further three waiting days at the end of the holiday period. Section 16 (1) (a) is designed to relieve claimants of this obligation.

Section 18 provides that income received by way of mobility allowance payable under the Health Act, 1970 will be disregarded in the assessment of means for the non-contributory old age pension. This allowance which was introduced in 1979 under the Health Act, 1970 applies to severely handicapped persons over age 16 who are unable to walk and who would benefit from occasional trips away from home. An earnings disregard of £6 per week is applied in the assessment of means for non-contributory pension. The amount of the mobility allowance when it was introduced was £150 per year and where there were no other means the allowance did not affect the rate of pension because of the £6 per week disregard. This is no longer the case however as the allowance has since been increased to £320 per year. This amendment provides that money received by way of the allowance will no longer be taken into account in the assessment for old age pension. Income from other allowances payable under the Health Acts, such as the disabled person's maintenance allowance and the infectious diseases maintenance allowance, is already disregarded.

The changes I am putting forward in this Bill are designed to improve in a number of respects the operation of the present social welfare system and the control mechanisms which operate. I am also engaged in extending social insurance to the self-employed as well as in the introduction of statutory sick pay. The proposals in this Bill will bring about needed improvements in the present system and will help to achieve a more effective use of our resources. It is extremely important that while these changes are being drawn up, we constantly try to improve and develop the efficiency and effectiveness of the delivery of existing services. I commend the Bill to the House and I will be very glad to hear and to take into consideration the comments of Deputies.

Given the poverty that prevails in so many parishes it astounds me that the Minister for Social Welfare can address the House for 45 minutes without making a reference to the appalling need that exists in so many Irish homes today. The presentation of the Bill, which was published last week, was dishonest. It was presented to us as a measure designed to attack fraud among employers but there are five innocuous sections in the Bill which are superfluous to our present law and do not contain any provision for jail sentences for corrupt employers. The description by the Minister was a smokescreen to cloud the retrenchment in social welfare that the Bill represents. I wish the Minister had been more honest with us and if he had been he might have got wholehearted support from the House.

It is my intention to table a number of amendments to the Bill on Committee Stage. I hope to be able to amend sections 2 to 6, inclusive, by the insertion of a provision for prison sentences and heavier fines on employers found guilty of fraud in regard to social welfare benefits. I am convinced that there is justification for that approach having heard the Minister's speech. The recitation of detected fraud in his speech was such that there should be a special meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts convened as soon as possible to go through each line of the Minister's speech tonight and that delivered on Friday, when he presented a Supplementary Estimate to the House, to discover the extent of fraud in regard to social welfare payments.

The Minister did not tell us that many of the officials in his Department whose job it is to detect fraud and who have been successful in, for instance, Arigna Mines and the Cooley Peninsula, have been grounded in the Department because of cutbacks. The Minister, in the course of his reply, should tell the House if that is the case. I understand that because of the cutbacks in travelling expenses those officials are doing very little detection work. If my information is correct I can only describe those cutbacks as silly and typical of actions of the Department of Finance. Is it any wonder that the country is in such a financial mess.

In the course of his speech the Minister said that of 8,329 claimants called for interview by the detection unit in the current year to review their entitlements to unemployment payments 1,255 ceased claiming, of which 915 did so voluntarily. That represents 15 per cent. I understand that officials of the special investigation unit of the Department are sitting on their hands in the various social welfare offices because they are not being paid travelling allowances. According to the Minister, of 4,558 claims to unemployment payments investigated by that unit 1,227 were disallowed, or 30 per cent. The Minister also said, in regard to the disability benefit scheme, that of 88,000 claimants referred to a medical referee this year 19,000 were found to be capable of work and 3,000 ceased to claim benefit. That represents a total of 22,000 or 25 per cent. The Minister went on to say that a further 19,000 persons, or 20 per cent, failed to attend for examination and except in a small number of cases where there was good reason for their failure to attend, they were liable to a nine week disqualification and a second referral.

The Minister also told us that the numbers claiming disability benefit each week had gone down from 82,000 to 72,000, a drop of 12½ per cent, following the activities of the medical referees. Dealing with prosecutions the Minister said that there were 125 cases referred to the Chief State Solicitor's Office but it is worth bearing in mind that there are 1.3 million claimants. Of that figure there were 12 suspended prison sentences and 17 prison sentences in total. The Minister does not say how many of those who received prison sentences were employers but it is my guess that there were none.

It is evident to me, and has been for some time — when in Government I pressed this very strongly — that there is widespread abuse of the social welfare system and that is apparent from the Minister's speech. However, the Minister has not told us the results of other surveys conducted by his Department in relation to claimants for free telephone rental, free electricity allowance and free television licence. The Minister should give the House the results of those surveys. Tonight the Minister did not tell us anything about the abuse of the unmarried mother's allowance or deserted wife's benefit. I have a passionate anger about fraud in social welfare because it amounts to a defrauding of the poor of the country. People living on £35 per week were to get a special additional increase this year of £3.50 — that was provided by Fine Gael in their draft budget — but that was dropped by the Government. The Minister has not told us that even one penny of the money saved as a result of the success of the war on fraud would be diverted to such poor unfortunate people.

It is unfortunate that the anger I have expressed about fraud in social welfare is misrepresented frequently by Members, particularly left wing Members, as an attack on social welfare. I should like to make my position clear. I am, and have always been, in favour of a progressive social welfare system. If we are to have a generous and progressive social welfare system that will get the full support of our population we will have to produce one that will not be open to extensive fraud. Our system has developed in a way that almost makes fraud unavoidable. I should like to give some examples of how fraud comes about.

Employers, some of whom I want to put in jail for breaches of the social welfare system, if they want to employ a person for a few weeks approach those on the unemployment register. The person approached may say: "I cannot take a job for a few weeks because if I do I will go back on short term payment. I will also lose my Christmas bonus and may lose my medical card. My differential rent may increase, so I will work for ten quid less provided you say nothing to Social Welfare." Your man saves ten quid. He works for a few weeks. He avoids all those losses that he could not afford, he gets a few extra bob for his family and the losers, of course, are the Department of Social Welfare. This is not just an extreme example. This is happening in Ireland this week, as many TDs will know who are aware of people who took up jobs for five or six weeks for Christmas and found when the Christmas bonus was paid in the last few days they were not entitled to it. They were the few honest fools who were so naive as to declare their employment.

Another example is an old person living alone who has free telephone rental, free TV licence and free electricity allowance. She is getting on and her family are concerned about her. Maybe her daughter is living in a flat and comes to live with her. If the mother declares that she loses all these allowances as well as her living alone allowance. She may also lose the medical card. She cannot afford to lose those things, but she needs her daughter in her house so she does not declare. Therefore, the system is designed to encourage fraud. Those are two examples.

We know that unmarried mothers get £57 a week and are entitled to medical cards. They may get a local authority house and help with their ESB bill, etc. They may have met a man they hope to marry but they cannot afford to marry because they are going to lose all of those things.

I say to the Minister that the evident increase in the policing of the social welfare system is correct provided it does not get to the stage of hunting those who are truly entitled to social welfare and in need of it. While it is correct, it is not enough. The system needs to be overhauled radically, much more radically than the Minister seems to be doing even in the Social Welfare Supplementary Estimate of last week or in this Bill before the House tonight. This Bill is about retrenchment in social welfare, as I have said. It does not include the sum total of retrenchments that this Minister has brought about in social welfare. For instance, the Bill does not provide for something for which perhaps legislation is not required and I would like the Minister to tell us about this in his reply. It does not cover his announcement which takes from poor, unfortunate widows who go out to work to keep their family together. If they are unlucky enough to fall sick they will be without their half rate disability benefit for which up to now they qualified. Likewise, deserted wives will lose that disability benefit. If a widow who at the moment is working and in receipt of a widow's contributory pension goes sick she will have just her widow's pension. She is going to lose full wages and she will have no disability benefit. The same applies to deserted wives who work.

Secondly, the special increase of £3.50 for those on long term assistance and who are living alone and aged 45 or over — the most needy group in society — is not to be paid. Those disimprovements, which are not the full story, on top of what is provided in this Bill show a complete emphasis on retrenchment but no emphasis at all on redirecting resources towards the most needy groups in our society. If somebody falls on hard times that is truly horrendous.

Take the wife whose husband does a dally; he flits away. She has to apply for deserted wife's allowance and she will have to be means tested by the Department of Social Welfare. However, they cannot even consider her application until she is at least three months deserted, so she is sent along to the community welfare officer at the health centre who will conduct a means test to assess her eligibility for supplementary welfare allowance. If she wants a medical card that means test is not sufficient. She has been through two means tests already, (1) for deserted wife's allowance which will not be decided for three months and, (2), for supplementary welfare allowance, perhaps with different criteria being used in each case. Then when she applies for a medical card which undoubtedly she needs badly there will be a third and different means test with different criteria and different public officials involved. We are not even half way there yet. If she resides in a local authority house she will have to apply to the local authority for a reduction in her differential rent. You know, Sir, what that means; another means test, assessed by different criteria yet again and by different officials of a different statutory authority. She is now about half way there, that is, after four means tests. If she is not in a local authority house and has, for instance, a mortgage she has a few more courses open to her. If it is a HFA mortgage she has to go to them to apply for a reduction in her mortgage repayments, and that means another means test to different criteria and, yes, by different officials of another statutory authority. On the other hand, if she is renting her house she may be entitled to a rent supplement but that means another means test by other public officials in another statutory agency. If she needs to take up civil legal aid in pursuit of her husband that means another means test to different criteria by another statutory agency and more officials. That is not even the end because she might want footwear for her children and other help to which she is entitled. She might want to apply for help under the national fuel scheme. I will not regale the House any further with what she has to do. The previous six or seven means tests will not do. There are more means tests before she is considered.

This is not only indignity and inconvenience to a woman already in great distress but it entails costs that she cannot meet — bus fares and so on and there is also the frustration of trying to make calls from public telephones that do not work and for which she has not got the money anyway or there may be the letters with stamps she can ill afford. All these show that our social welfare system is designed in many cases to humiliate and inconvenience people who are at their most vulnerable.

I have suggested in this House several times that there should be one national means test. The Minister for Finance some time ago told me this was a good idea and that an interdepartmental committee had been set up to look at it. What progress has been made. Why are there umpteen means tests? As well as those I have mentioned, there is criminal legal aid where the courts decide the means, education grants given by the local authorities and so on. Why not one basic eligibility test? My second and most important proposal is, why cannot that eligibility certificate be used to remove the major anomalies and traps in the system?

So far as eligibility for medical cards is concerned, a person who is £1 over the limit does not get it. The same applies to education grants. These and other measures almost force people to abuse the system. Why not have a tapering system? This would mean that people within £10 or £15 of the limit would get 75 per cent eligibility and people within £30 of the limit would get 50 per cent eligibility for medical cards and other entitlements. I would like these grants to be tapered off rather than cut off. I am including in this old people who now have free electricity, free television licence and free telephone rental allowances. If these people's circumstances change, they should not lose these allowances but they should taper off over two or three years. Many old people are afraid to take a relative into their homes to look after them even though they are afraid to live alone because of crime. Much needs to be done in our social welfare system.

It is true that in these times of financial constraints it is very hard to see where the resources might come from to alleviate the awful poverty at the bottom of the spectrum. I do not exaggerate when I tell the House what is happening in the area I get my votes, where almost all of my constituency is working class. I do not ever remember — not even when I was a child when, on the face of it, people were worse off — so much distress at Christmas time. I do not ever remember encountering so many people in need of money, not for toys or luxuries at Christmas but to put a decent meal on their table for their children. These are the people who depend on unemployment assistance. What disturbs me greatly is the lack of commitment, the lack of effort to target for special assistance these people on unemployment assistance, as well as those single women aged 58 living alone.

The House is possibly bored hearing me say that I am against across-the-board percentage increases and across-the-board Christmas bonuses. Across-the-board percentage increases give those who have more a big increase and those who have very little get a very small increase. The same applies to the Christmas bonus. I have often cited the case of retired bank managers, bank directors and company directors with substantial pensions, as well as the contributory old age pension, getting bonuses of £60 or £70 a week, money they do not need, while people in receipt of £35 or £37 a week get a bonus of £20. These people are in desperate need.

Since Deputy Woods became Minister for Social Welfare in March 1986 I cannot recall one step he has taken or one passionate word he has spoken to show his interest in or to acknowledge the existence of this problem. The Minister told us today and last week that the saving on fraud this year will be £36 million. If these savings continue for a full year, what will the figure be? Will it be £50 million or £100 million? I suspect it will be nearer the latter because according to the Minister's speech last Friday 10 per cent of all people interviewed under the Jobsearch scheme have been knocked off the unemployment register — 135,000 people interviewed and 13,200 off the register. I make a very strong plea that these resources be used to alleviate this awful poverty.

Moneylenders are having a field day in the suburbs of Dublin, and probably in Cork as well, at the expense of the most vulnerable section in our society because they are the only people who must have recourse to moneylenders. The Moneylenders Act, 1933, has never been amended, as far as I know, but it is not being enforced. There is widespread extortion among the people who depend for their income on the Department of Social Welfare. They are paying 30 per cent, 40 per cent and 50 per cent interest on those loans. When it is difficult to repay one loan they are offered another to pay off the first and still have a few pounds in their pockets. This means they are getting even further in debt.

I am proposing another amendment to this Bill, which has already been submitted to the Bills Office. I am aware of two cases where the community welfare officers were so distressed about certain moneylending cases that they negotiated with the moneylenders who had acted illegally. I must give the community welfare officers full marks for initiative and for their concern. They negotiated a reduction in the interest, they proposed to pay off the moneylender and they were allowing the unfortunate borrower to pay the health board £5 per week. When those cases were put to the Department they were refused permission on the basis that there was no legislative provision. I honestly believe that this problem needs to be tackled much more vigorously. Admittedly, moneylending comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Justice but the section of the population who are affected by this moneylending scourge are people who see the Minister for Social Welfare as their paymaster, people who are totally dependent on him.

The Commission on Social Welfare, in their very comprehensive report, highlighted the need for special payments, especially to the categories I mentioned. They suggested that payments should be made once every quarter. I ask the Minister to give special consideration to some additional payments at Christmas to the worst off categories, especially those with dependent children. People may ask where we will get the resources to pay for even that small part of the commission's report but I suggest we have found it in the savings made in 1987 from the detection of fraud. I also suggest that provision should be made — or at least considered — in certain cases, defined by the Minister in regulations which he should have power to draft, for the community welfare service to lend money to certain categories of persons at times of exceptional need in addition to whatever supplementary welfare assistance to which they are entitled. It would be infinitely better to get an interest free loan from the supplementary welfare system than to pay extortionate interest to moneylenders thereby worsening the problem they sought to avoid in the first place.

The Department of Social Welfare spend £2.6 billion, there is a multiplicity of subheads, votes, benefits, entitlements and pensions. One could speak for many hours in the House without really touching in any detail on all the important issues and concerns. However, it behoves the Members of this House at least to try to give a more rational framework to the social welfare system, more sense of direction and purpose. Perhaps when we deal with Bills concerning social welfare we should indicate the mission of the Department of Social Welfare because, looking back on how things have developed, particularly over the past decade, it is obvious that all sense of direction, purpose and mission has been lost. Their mission should be to relieve and eliminate poverty: yet, the Minister in his 45 minute speech did not once mention poverty, which emphasises what I said.

The Department of Social Welfare are a very big Department and in recent times have shown a new vigour and sense of purpose which had been lost for so long. How else could we have allowed the abuse of the system which the Minister highlighted tonight? How else could we pay bigger bonuses to those with three and four incomes than to those with £35 per week? How else can we pay the same child benefit to those on £50,000 per year as to people on £60 per week? How else can we see so many people in poverty when others collect their children's allowance every six months and lodge it to their number two account?

Perhaps there should be a special meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts to go through every paragraph of the Social Welfare Vote. Two criteria should be applied: what does each paragraph do to relieve and eliminate poverty and to create fairness in the system? The House has been asked to pass this Bill in the next few days. I do not propose to delay its implementation because I know that in next February or March there will be a much more extensive Bill before the House, if we are to drop the disability benefit for working widows which the Minister proposes and to which I am totally opposed. We will also need a new Bill if we extend to the self-employed the requirement to make pay-related contributions and if we extend to employers the responsibility for paying the first 13 weeks of disability benefit, thus making it taxable. All these issues require major legislation and I hope that when the Minister next seeks our approval in this House for the reform of social welfare it will not be itsy-bitsy reform. I hope, above all else, that special consideration will be given to the least well off categories of social welfare recipients and who are most dependent on the Minister to keep body and soul together.

In discussing any Bill before the House I am always very conscious of the need to stand back and look at it objectively. In dealing with a Bill concerning social welfare, one must be more conscious of the need to look at it objectively because such Bills usually affect the welfare of over one million people.

In speaking about matters relating to social welfare, one must also be very conscious of the fact that this Department are responsible for expenditure of £2.6 billion. While being conscious of the needs of individual recipients of social welfare payments, we must also be very conscious of the demands on the taxpayers who are expected to finance such arrangements. In this regard, I should like to state categorically that if the Minister for Social Welfare wants to embark on a programme that will eliminate abuses in the social welfare system, he will have an ally in the Progressive Democrats. Unlike the Minister, who does not state what he will do with the money he saves from detecting abuses, the Progressive Democrats are very clear on what they intend to do with it, namely, to redistribute it among those who are on the lowest form of social welfare payments.

I should like to have very simple arithmetic explained to me. The Minister announced to the House last Friday that almost £36 million has been saved because of the crack down on abuses of social welfare and yet in the same breath the Minister asked this House to approve a Supplementary Estimate for his Department of £10.5 million needed to pay the Christmas bonus to social welfare recipients. The Minister further stated that this money would be found from savings in other Government Departments. I ask the Minister to state what he and the Department intend to do with the £36 million that has been saved by the Department. On the other hand, is the Minister going to tell the House that if he had not saved the £36 million I have just referred to — and not taking into consideration the Christmas bonus — that his Department would have overspent by £36 million. Was the original estimate for the year reduced by £36 million because the abuses were so obvious that a blind man would have been able to see them and count them.

I have never seen a social welfare Bill incorporating so many bits and pieces being of such priority to a Government. I find it extremely difficult to understand why the Bill before us has to be rushed through in the manner proposed. It makes me stand back and examine very thoroughly the provisions of the Bill and its implications for the people I and my party represent. This Bill consists of 19 sections. It commences by attempting to provide legislation to pursue employers who engage in or collude in abuses of the social welfare system. It is designed to discourage collusion between employers and employees in cases of suspected fraud. It imposes an obligation on employers whose employees are claiming benefit to provide such particulars as may be required to enable the proper determination or review of a claim. It imposes a new obligation on employers to produce records at their registered address or principal place of business as may be demanded. It requires details of earnings and the period to which they refer to be recorded at or before the time of payment of wages. It extends the powers of social welfare inspectors for unemployment benefit purposes to enter premises, which includes premises where such employed persons are or were engaged. It makes provision to bring inspections of unemployment benefit into line with those for unemployment assistance. The measures are proposed in the hope that abuse will be curtailed and fraud eliminated from the system.

The Bill makes substantial changes in the contribution conditions for disability benefit, invalidity pensions, maternity benefit and maternity allowances. It provides for the abolition of pay-related benefit in certain cases. It refers to reckonable weekly earnings, strikers, the social welfare tribunal, waiting days for people transferring from disability to maternity benefit or from disability benefit to holiday pay and vice versa. It further refers to extending payment of benefit for six weeks after the death of a claimant who had been in receipt of an allowance in respect of an adult dependant. Finally, it addresses the question of means in relation to non-contributory old age pensions.

In all my years in this House I have never seen so many bits and pieces of the social welfare system dragged together into a Bill, and a state of emergency almost declared to have it rushed through this House. I will not be a party to any legislation being approved by this House that has the effect of imposing severe hardship on people who are in receipt of long-term disability benefit or invalidity pensions. I will not allow sections 8 to 10 of this Bill to be approved by this House without having a proper and detailed debate on their effects. I ask the Minister to tell this House how many of the 79,800 recipients of social welfare disability benefit will be affected by the changes proposed in this Bill and the total savings the Department expect to make as a result in 1988. In addition, I ask the Minister to tell the House the total number of men and women, married and single, who will find themselves no longer eligible for benefits on 4 January 1988. Will the Minister also tell the House how many will lose their eligibility at the same time because their 12 months benefit will have expired and they fail to have the necessary 260 contributions? It is of vital importance that I have answers to these questions because the whole Bill is based on the replies I get to them.

I would like to refer to sections 1 to 7 which attempt to discourage fraud or collusion between employers and employees. There is a need for a proper balance between the efficient delivery of social welfare services which has due regard for the dignity and sense of entitlement of claimants and necessary measures to control fraud. We recognise that the opportunity for fraud exists in any system whether it be social welfare, grants to industry and agriculture or taxation, and that control measures are necessary especially where public funds are concerned.

The occurrence of fraud in social welfare has to be considered in the context of almost 800,000 payments being made per week covering 1.2 million beneficiaries, with a total expenditure of £2.6 billion. While recognising that control measures are necessary, we must also be concerned that the overwhelming majority of claimants are genuine and we should not stigmatise them under a régime that would infringe their dignity or sense of entitlement. There is no doubt in my mind that social welfare fraud in Ireland is very serious indeed. In a recent RTE radio interview, the Minister confirmed my worst fears when he stated that the Department would not release the recent Craig Gardner report which this Government commissioned to investigate fraud. This leaves me with no alternative but to conclude that fraud in the social welfare system is now completely out of control.

Recent press reports of alleged fraud among 170 workers at the Arigna collieries in County Roscommon must be of serious concern to all politicians. The fact that 170 workers were able to draw social welfare disability benefit for approximately four years at a staggering cost of £225,000 to the taxpayer while continuing in full time employment is nothing short of a national disgrace. Not alone should the workers be prosecuted but there should be a complete investigation into the Department as to how this was allowed to continue for that length of time. The main areas of fraud identified by the Commission on Social Welfare are signing for unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance or drawing disability benefit while continuing to work and also the failure by employers to pay social insurance contributions. I would like to take this opportunity to reassure the Minister that in introducing measures to combat social welfare fraud he will not find this party wanting in support for any measures that are reasonable.

The most serious concern I have in regard to the Bill relates to sections 8, 9 and 10. These provisions represent a blatant attack on married women and women generally in the social welfare system. It is a known fact that serious concern has been expressed both within and outside Government circles at the number of women who are claiming social welfare disability benefit. The provisions in the Bill which change the contribution conditions are designed to put outside the social welfare system anything up to 20,000 or 30,000 recipients. I would like the Minister to give me some information on that figure. The vast majority of these recipients are already on the poverty line. Many of them have made their contributions while working in jobs where they scrubbed floors in offices and factories. Their contributions will have gone towards supporting other social welfare incomes, for example, those claimed by unemployed husbands. When the equality measures were introduced in 1986, I learned at first hand what these payments meant to a substantial number of women and their families. The provisions in this Bill attack the very existence of families and individuals. The provisions of sections 8 and 9 are a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing. We do not know what impact this is going to have on the very large number of people who are genuinely dependent on social welfare. It will be next July before we really know the problems this Bill may create.

It is now proposed that a married man with four children who is in receipt of £180.20 per week in social welfare disability benefit, who is not in continuous benefit for 312 days and who has fewer than 260 contributions will have his income reduced by £16.50 per week. Likewise, a married man with four children and in receipt of invalidity pension of £122.20 per week who loses his entitlement to invalidity pension and is forced to draw a supplementary welfare allowance, will lose something in the region of £30.50 a week. There is a better way of reducing public expenditure and of tackling social welfare fraud than by attacking individuals and families who are already on the poverty line.

Maintaining the living standards of social welfare recipients had not been one of the priorities of this Government. Retrenchment and reduction of social welfare expenditure has been the policy objective. In other countries which have advanced economies the seeds of these ideas were increasingly sown on the fertile soil of economic stagnation. There was a rapid growth in the popularity of the idea that social welfare expenditure can be reduced, irrespective of the cost, the suffering and hardship it imposed. However, the question remains as to whether economic conditions and the current climate of opinion will lead to the kind of direct cutbacks which have been imposed in Britain and elsewhere. The political culture in Ireland is not characterised into left and right ideologies as in the case in many other countries. Therefore, we do not have the same traditions of social democracy and liberalism. Any debate about key social welfare issues here will not be conducted in the political terms experienced elsewhere. Ireland is different. Our social welfare structure is different, our community care structures are different and we have a strong Christian tradition, a tradition that has shown concern for the needs of the poor and the disadvantaged. The degree of dependence in Ireland on social welfare payments — over one third of the population are beneficiaries and in over two fifths of households there is at least one recipient — renders it virtually impossible to create the political support to reduce services significantly. The provisions of this Bill, and in particular those of sections 8, 9, 10 and 11, will have to be carefully considered in the light of what I have just said.

The Progressive Democrats are concerned for all but, in particular, for those depending on social welfare payments. We are committed to increasing these payments by effecting savings through the elimination of fraud and wasteful practices and by redirecting payments to the most needy in our community. I am convinced that the changes in the contributions are going to cause endless hardship, especially for those unfortunate people who cannot, due to present circumstances, get permanent employment. I hope the Minister can answer the questions I have raised so that I will be in a position to make a further contribution on Committee Stage of this Bill tomorrow.

So far as the Labour Party are concerned the main criticism of this Bill should be directed against that section which increases the contributions for disability benefit and invalidity benefit. This section will have far reaching effects on workers and, in particular, on young workers, who will now have to be in the workforce for at least five continuous years before they will be eligible to claim disability benefit.

Over 12 months.

The point must be made that five years' continuous work is a considerable achievement for workers these days and that most likely the majority of young workers will never have that qualification. This Government increased the contributions from 156 to 208 in this year's budget. The Labour Party had already brought down the Coalition Government on the attempt to increase the number of contributions necessary for workers.

With the increase proposed in this Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill workers will be put under further pressure to find the extra year of continuous work. I would like the Minister to explain how that can be done. If the Bill is passed young workers will be unable to claim disability benefit if they fall ill unless they have five years work behind them. A young worker who gets a long term illness will only be eligible for disabled person's maintenance allowance. The disabled person's maintenance allowance is not paid to workers and their dependants if the claimant is hospitalised. This is a further drawback. If a worker who claims disabled person's maintenance allowance has a working wife, the worker will get nothing. These changes are obviously directed against the most vulnerable group of workers and are totally unacceptable to the Labour Party.

The Labour Party will seek to amend the legislation by requiring that the number of contributions necessary to qualify for disability benefit is brought back to 156 or the 1986 level. Furthermore, the point should be made that it is not up to workers to prove that they are fit for work. It is up to the general practitioner to be accountable and if medical certificates are received from workers there are reasonable grounds for believing that workers claiming disability benefit or invalidity benefit are ill. If the Government have a problem with this or if the Government believe that there are numbers of people claiming disability or invalidity benefit who are not actually ill, the Government should refer it back to where it belongs, to the medical profession, and not try to block workers who have legitimate claims.

Another point which should be made is that the Commission on Social Welfare made no recommendation regarding disability benefit except that the allowance involved was insufficient. As well as making no attempt to implement any part of the commission's report this Government will create a more regressive code within the social welfare system. In relation to disability benefit the point should be made that the employers should bear the burden for paying the first few weeks of disability benefit to workers who fall ill. The Government, or the State apparatus, should try to move in to help workers only if the illness is prolonged. I have long believed that employers who are asked to undertake this task — this effectively is what I believe the Minister is attempting to do later this year — should be given some financial incentive to perform this function, particularly to assist with the substantial administration costs that this would avoid so far as the State is concerned.

I accept that employers these days are faced with mountains of paperwork. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that, if this Bill passes through this House, every effort should be made — I think he referred to that in his speech — to avoid unnecessary paperwork and the wasting of valuable time as far as employers and employees are concerned. The new legislation will throw many thousands of workers back to subsistence, a rate which is neither adequate nor appropriate.

The self employed part time workers and other categories of workers who may not have continuous stamps for five years will be badly affected. Indeed, it is ironic that the Government who have consistently encouraged workers to set up on their own or start their own businesses now seek to ensure that should these workers fall on hard times they will not be eligible to come back to the welfare system for help.

If we look at the figures for invalidity pension we will find that in 1977 the figures stood at some 10,000 people in receipt of that benefit. That figure has grown dramatically to 26,000 people at the end of 1986. This was a natural and in many respects a welcome development because it puts people who would otherwise be on long term disability benefit on to invalidity benefit. They do not have to wait for the postman to arrive, or not to arrive, with the social welfare cheque on various days during the week. They do not have to communicate with and contact the local public representative to see why their cheques are not being sent out on a consistent basis. This avoids a large amount of administration in the local employment offices, many of which, if not all, are unable to cope with the level of unemployment and the service which people require at present. It transfers the payment on a weekly basis under the book system to the post office and is a much more convenient and efficient system of payment. Even if the benefit is somewhat greater than disability benefit this is offset substantially by the level of savings in administration costs.

I join with my other colleagues in suggesting to the Minister that, so far as this benefit is concerned, it should qualify recipients for other benefits such as TV, ESB, free travel and so on. All of that could be combined into one qualification so that a person having gone through the initial medical and means test in relation to invalidity benefit would automatically qualify for all the benefits concerned. At least the application should be dealt with in one application from rather than going through the same thing four times in a row over a period of nine months, or even longer.

The Bill attempts to close off loopholes which made it possible for women workers to claim maternity benefit for a second pregnancy. There are two schemes involved here: (a) women in the workforce; and (b) the old or general scheme referred to by the Minister in his speech. The changes in the Bill attempt to squeeze up to 9,000 women out of the general scheme. Women will have to be in continuous employment to qualify. Contributions required have gone up from six months to nine months and must be paid contributions rather than credits. This will again affect the young worker most directly. At a time of scarcity of jobs it will be increasingly difficult for women to get continuous stamps particularly if they are attempting to combine work outside the home with work inside the home. The latter usually end up in the black economy jobs or jobs in off peak hours or unsocial hours. The measure, in my opinion, is regressive and is a serious attempt to undermine the small gains which women have made over the past decade.

In case the Deputy leaves before I reply the figure is 3,000.

Yes. I stand corrected if that is right.

It definitely is.

I did not interrupt the Minister. He and I have often disagreed on figures. I have been right a good number of times so far. It also refutes the sentiments expressed in the 1937 Constitution that women shall not have to work outside the home out of economic necessity. To stay in benefit women will not alone have to work outside the home but must be in continuous employment and paying contributions. Women workers who leave the workforce, having paid years of contributions already lose out in terms of dental, optical and unemployment benefit. Despite many years of paid contributions, this latest legislative proposal is a further attempt to ensure that women do not gain under the system.

Many women workers are forced out of the workforce after a first pregnancy because they fail to comply with the legislative requirements of sending a letter to employers stating their intention to return to work. Many employers deliberately fail to inform women workers of this requirement and use it as a rationale for laying them off after the maternity leave is complete. The withdrawal of pay-related benefit from maternity benefit is yet another severe cutback for women. The Government are quite happy to deduct pay-related contributions from women's wages but they are reluctant to pay women when they are in need. This is an outrageous attack on a segment of workers and is regressive legislation in many respects. One might even call it a tax on babies.

Sections 12 to 14 of this Bill, as far as the Labour Party are concerned, are welcome as are sections 16 to 18. In relation to section 15 the point could be made that a dependant is a dependant and the need for qualification should be abolished. It costs the same to feed and clothe a dependant regardless of the circumstances and this requirement should be eliminated. The Labour Party will be seeking to amend sections 8 and 9 to restore the status quo to the 156 qualifying contributions as was the case before we left Government, and amendments to this effect have already been submitted. We will also be opposing section 11 and I will, in the course of Committee Stage, be giving the reasons for that. Many other comments could be made about this Bill and I hope we will be able to get to the nitty-gritty of it on Committee Stage.

I wish to make a number of general comments on the Bill. It is now becoming much more difficult to secure invalidity benefit. I assume that the squeeze has been put on this benefit by the administration because of the substantial increase in the numbers of people now qualifying for it. I suggest to the Minister that the reason people have been slow to opt for this benefit, as Members of this House and I am sure the Minister will fully appreciate, is their lack of knowledge of their right to acquire it and how to go about getting it. For example, invalidity benefit is the only benefit under the social welfare code for which the applicant has to apply for an application form. There is no other benefit in the social welfare code where this requirement is necessary.

An application form is not needed in any other case.

That is true. Many people applying for this benefit are elderly people who have to get assistance in filling in the form. The form is then sent back to the Department, assessments have to be made and the person has to wait for a medical examination. Incidentally, the new trend is that not alone will the persons not secure invalidity benefit but they will be disallowed disability benefit and will have to sign for unemployment benefit which they will be paid at the same rate as disability benefit until such time ar they are re-examined by a medical referee. The social welfare system is becoming crazier.

We all accept that abuses exist but the people who abuse the social welfare system are a small minority of the total number of people receiving social welfare benefit. I suggest to the Minister that greater emphasis should be placed on dealing with employers who are party to abuses of social welfare. If there were no dishonest employers in relation to social welfare benefit there would be no dishonest employees. It is a well known fact that thousands of workers who are defrauding the system are working for employers who know that these people are signing and are in receipt of disability and unemployment benefit, and who give them time off to go to the local employment exchange to collect their money. In the old days when we were on short time employment in the shoe factories we had to sign every day when we were out of work. Because of the number of people signing on at present people have to sign once a week only. That has left it very simple for employers who want to employ people who are receiving these benefits and working at the same time.

I welcome the provisions in the Bill which will allow freer access to the records of companies to inspectors. I suggest that the Minister extend that right to trade union officials so that they would have the right to inspect the records of employers on behalf of the people they represent. Very often people go to draw benefit, whether it be optical, dental or unemployment benefit, and when they seek a tax rebate during short term employment or unemployment they find that their contributions have not been returned. Workers have no way of establishing whether their contributions are being returned. I suggest that the right to inspect the records of a company should be extended particularly to trade unions so that representatives of workers would have that right. In fact every worker should have the right to inspect the records of a company every year or twice a year to see if a certification has been received from the Department showing quite clearly that their contributions have been returned. The people are entitled to a P.60 and a P.45 but they are not worth the paper they are written on. Anyone can fill in a P. 60 form and hand it to an employee after 5 April but it virtually means nothing. The only way to prove that the contributions have been returned is by certifications from the Department of Social Welfare. That would avoid a mountain of problems in relation to the administration of the whole social welfare system.

Recently I heard of a case of a person who was marking up results in a bookmaker's shop. His employer said he was giving him £10 or £20 a week. Somebody in the bookmaker's shop who did not like this employee reported him. That man, who has eight children, went to court and received six months imprisonment and was fined £10,000 — for marking up a bookmaker's board. Yet there is massive abuse of the social welfare system; people defraud the system of thousands of pounds and get nothing like the same treatment. A substantial majority are not even brought to court.

That was not under our legislation. The maximum fine is £3,000.

The fine was £10,000 in repayments. My final point relates to young people. Young people who cannot find employment but whose parents are employed are treated in a most despicable way. They are paid sums of £5 or £15 a week and yet they are expected to respect the system. They have to suffer the indignity of being paid these small sums of money. Young educated people who have done courses offered by AnCO, CERT and whatever are entitled to unemployment assistance irrespective of what their parents earn. If we do not give young people some dignity they will react against society as a whole.

We will be putting down four amendments to this Bill and I hope to deal with them in some greater detail tomorrow. We will oppose the Bill for the reasons I have outlined.

I support the Bill and praise the Minister for taking the initiative in introducing it. The Fine Gael spokesperson said there was an appalling need in many Irish homes. Perhaps that need arose from the irresponsibility and indecision of Coalition Governments over the last number of years. We cannot address the problem of poverty which social welfare legislation is designed to combat unless we consider the causes of poverty. There is no doubt that much of the poverty is the result of a lack of economic activity and economic policies which would have given this country an opportunity to grow and which would have given us commercial opportunities to ensure that our country would be more productive with more employment so that there would be less strain on the social welfare system generally.

The Minister has my sympathy in inheriting the problems caused by the previous Coalition Government, of which the Fine Gael spokesman was a prominent member, which gave rise to serious unemployment. The unemployment level was something like 100,000 when the Coalition Government took office in 1982 but it was in the region of 240,000 when they left office. That is the situation which this Minister had to address on coming into office. Many Opposition Deputies challenged the Minister's figures in last year's budget debate and said that the money would run out half way through the year. The Minister can, with pride, give an account as to how he has kept to his Estimates, the very Estimates challenged by the Deputies opposite as being inadequate. This was good housekeeping on the part of the Minister and his civil servants and it would be remiss of me and other Deputies not to compliment the Minister in successfully facing such a challenge. I had expected more from the spokesman opposite in his contribution on this Bill. In these difficult times the Government cannot too often look for plaudits from the Opposition but there are occasions when generosity and recognition of sheer hard graft would not go amiss from the Opposition. It is with pride that I pay this compliment to the Minister.

Praise the Lord.

I am not in the least sycophantic or hypocritical in doing this. I would not abuse the privilege of this House and my position by coming in here merely to put a rubber stamp on what Ministers do. I trust that my performance here since I was elected has clearly indicated that I am not prepared to be a rubber stamp on anything that the Government does. However, credit should be given where credit is due in this case.

Sections 2 to 7 of the Bill place an obligation on employers to provide facilities to keep better records of social welfare payments or PRSI payments. This has been alleged to be a smokescreen to cloak other aspects of the Bill. This is an unwarranted attitude to a very good set of provisions. In my experience as a county councillor and as a Deputy I know that the people who very often bear the brunt of social welfare investigations and prosecutions are unfortunate workers who work and draw unemployment assistance at the same time. The Department of Social Welfare must prosecute these people but they usually are not alone in that they are aided and abetted by employers who unscrupulously employ them. Few employers can truthfully say that they employed people with out knowing they were drawing the dole. If an employer employs workers drawing the dole without knowing it, the employer is acting carelessly or negligently in not finding out. The implementation of the proposed legislation will go a long way towards ensuring that there is an onus on the employer to find out the status of the proposed employee in relation to the Department of Social Welfare. More importantly, the employer will have to satisfy the officers of the Department of Social Welfare that the status of the employee is correct that he is not drawing unemployment assistance while working.

For anyone to come into this House and say that these provisions are unworthy is extremely unfair to the legislation and to the policy enunciated in this Bill. With reference to my earlier remarks of praise to the Minister and his Department for tackling the difficult situation they inherited, there is no lack of good faith on the part of the Minister and the Department in relation to the implementation of sections 2 to 7 of this Bill when enacted.

A number of spokespersons have pressed very strongly to have fraud eliminated. The enthusiasm with which this case is pressed from the Opposition benches is matched only by the neglect of previous Governments to do anything about it. The success of the Minister in saving approximately £36 million through elimination of fraud this year is truly indicative of the lack of commitment and lack of will to do anything about the situation on the part of the previous Government.

There have been other allegations of meanness on the part of the Minister and the Department of Social Welfare in relation to the distribution of the benefit gained through the elimination of fraud. Only the efficiency of the Minister and his diligence in the pursuit of fraud enabled the Christmas bonus to be paid out and will enable the continuation of the equal treatment provision for persons affected by the EC directive, the legislation in relation to which was introduced by the previous Government. Only under pressure from Fianna Fáil, then in Opposition, did the former Government introduce alleviating transitional provisions in relation to equal treatment payments up to November of this year. It is a very satisfactory result in a year of extreme shortage of cash that the Government are not only to fund the Christmas cash bonus but can continue to fund the alleviating provisions in relation to equal treatment.

I heartily welcome the recent announcement by the Minister that the special £10 and £20 equal treatment payments will continue at their present rates until the beginning of April 1988. About 21,000 people are in receipt of these payments, including many in my own constituency. This announcement must be greeted with particular gladness. These people, having established their household budget on the basis of the situation prior to the equal treatment provision, had reasonable expectations that the equal treatment provisions and the extra payments provided on a transitional basis would go on long after November 1987.

I hope the Minister and his Department will continue in the same efficient way the crack-down on fraud and the general saving from duplication of social welfare payments so that these transitional arrangements can continue well after April 1988. I trust that, if there is to be a phasing out, it will be only on the basis of reasonable long term provisions coming in. Judging by the performance of the Minister to date I have no doubt that he and his Department have the capacity to fulfil that objective, which I earnestly press upon them.

There has been a very rhetorical statement in relation to the various eligibility and means tests applied for grants and assistance to aid people on low incomes. I accept the criticism to a point and I welcome the announcement by the Minister for Finance that there will be an interdepartmental committee examining the situation with a view to achieving greater harmonisation of means testing and increasing the overall efficiency of the system by the elimination of duplication of bureaucratic examination of the means of people in order to assess their entitlement to various benefits.

I would enter one word of caution, however, in relation to the road which the Fine Gael spokesman proposes we should go down. I detect in what he said the philosophy of his colleagues in relation to the establishment of an ID card system like that in Denmark which has often been suggested by his colleague, Deputy Bruton, whether in this House or outside I am not quite sure. He has certainly proposed it as a viable way to deal with a situation described by Deputy Mitchell. I doubt that this country is ready for that type of "big brother" system where people are given an ID card when they are born and all information is added into the computer throughout their life, enabling one single means test to be made using this all-knowing computer. God knows what else could be established by such a computer in respect of every citizen. It is something from which our citizens, whether in receipt of social welfare benefits or not, will recoil. It is also a system open to abuse. It can become too immobile and inflexible.

It works in Denmark.

That is a different country.

It is always used as a model here.

They are still in trouble in Denmark, principally because they voted in a coalition again.

Not as many difficulties as are encountered here.

I suggest that Deputies should still consider the basic necessity of having so many means tests. They arise principally from the fact that we have not got the resources to fund an optimum type of social welfare system. We have not got the funds to fund the type of social welfare system we would all like to see in place. We have not got the funds, or the sources of wealth here, to fund the type of social welfare system I suggest we would have were it not for the maraudings and deprivations of the last Coalition Government. I challenge anyone to contradict me on that.

There have been various statements to the effect that poverty is on the increase, that people on social welfare benefit suffer many indignities as a result of bureaucratic examination and delay. I accept that a complex system such as this gives rise to delay, and much confusion. Very often it gives rise to people not knowing or claiming their entitlements sufficiently quickly to be of benefit to them. In this respect I note that the waiting period on the part of applicants for unemployment assistance and benefit has been considerably reduced. I discovered last week, through the social welfare officers in Mullingar, that the waiting period has been reduced dramatically without there being full computer facilities at that office. I welcome the onset of computer facilities for Cork. I hope, in the not too distant future, that towns in my constituency such as Mullingar, Athlone and Longford will be afforded the same facilities.

Not only does the computer ensure that the Department will be run more efficiently with cost savings on the Department side, but it also ensures that it will become more client-orientated, which I know is a departmental priority. Indeed, it can be seen developing progressively. It is a slow development, which the onset of the computer will hasten, but, above all, it is one which will require the dedication and commitment of all of the staff of the Department. From my experience as a county councillor and the more intensive experience I have gained as a public representative, I am glad to say that the courtesy, efficiency and commitment of the staff of the Department, in so far as they have any contact with claimants, now described as clients, and with public representatives on behalf of clients, is exemplary.

Did Deputy Abbott tell his clients what is being proposed in this Bill?

I have no doubt that the objective of ensuring greater client orientation in social welfare in the future will be shared by all Members of this House and will develop further as a result of that personal commitment on the part of the various officers of the Department. We do not avail of our opportunity to speak here often enough to give credit for the personal effort made and the interest taken by such staff. I know the present Minister cannot take full credit for the development of this strong personal commitment at senior, intermediate and junior level within the management of the Department in order to ensure that benefits are delivered in the speediest and most courteous way. This development has taken place by way of the general co-operation amongst all staff members. There appears to be a rising collegial commitment on the part of staff to generate that type of attitude. I am glad to note that it has been successfully generated. That attitude must occasion great work satisfaction on the part of the officers concerned and will continue to do so.

It is my belief that the old maternity allowance scheme was retained, probably wisely, to ensure there would be no anomalies or injustices occasioned by the shift from one system to the other. It appears that the time is now ripe for the change the Minister is introducing. When investigating maternity entitlements of constituents I discovered very often, when examining the new scheme, that they were not entitled to benefit by reason of their lack of contact with the workplace and generally, to the surprise of the claimants concerned, they discovered they were eligible under the terms of the old maternity allowance sceme principally because they had continued to sign in circumstances in which they were not receiving any unemployment benefit or assistance. The women concerned generally were surprised that there could be a system in operation which would benefit them in circumstances in which they has been divorced from the workplace for many years. When one is endeavouring to legislate for the protection of women at work its benefits should be geared at women at work and not those who have decided to leave the workplace.

Who cannot get work.

In a time of scarce resources any moneys provided should be for the benefit of women at work who continue to make their PRSI contributions. It appears the benefits of the old maternity scheme continue to be available to women who have 13 consecutive contributions. That is a very reasonable and modest requirement, necessitating a short involvement with the workplace on the part of claimants who may continue to work in the future. It constitutes a fair and reasonable balance in the circumstances, especially having regard to the fact that such balance is required on account of the scarcity of funds generally available to the Department.

I am glad that the Labour Party spokesman has supported the provisions in relation to trade disputes. This Bill constitutes progressive legislation with which the Minister has taken great care by way of ensuring that in the area of compensation for unemployment, no injustices or anomalies will arise. Possibly the Minister regarded the area as being of minority interest and neglected to legislate for it, but he has shown his concern and he has no hang-ups about doing what has to be done on the most generous basis possible.

The implementation of this legislation in relation to trade disputes may well solve many industrial relations problems arising from the dissatisfaction with unequal treatment because of the anomalies which the legislation is designed to eliminate. I would have thought the Labour Party would have given a greater welcome to the earlier provisions in the Bill relating to the enforcement of the obligation on employers to keep adequate records.

I did that twice in my speech.

Unfortunately not with as much enthusiasm as the Deputy did the latter part. I certainly welcome the Deputy's correction and I take that as the necessary degree of enthusiasm which I would have looked for in the first instance.

How does one measure it?

With a clapometer.

I again commend the Bill and assure the Minister of my support.

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús cúpla focal a rá faoin £5 mhilliún a thug an tAire dóibh siúd a chaill airgead nó a bhí ar tí airgead a chailliúint thart faoin bhliain ó shin.

I intend to be quite critical of this Bill but it is only right that I should open by welcoming the further extension of the measure which the Minister has introduced up to March. While I welcome it I still regard it as an inadequate way of dealing with the problems created by the equality legislation which was introduced. There are many people still who are suffering the real effects of that legislation.

While we all welcome the treatment of women as equals under the social welfare code, the effect in many cases has been to leave families worse off, to deprive adults in the family of any income of their own. I have had both men and women in touch with me who have been meanstested completely out of unemployment assistance as a result of the application of the legislation in that area. Nevertheless, I welcome the extension of the measure up to March. I hope there is something in the Minister's hint that there may be something in the budget to extend it or improve it even further.

To deal specifically with the Bill, it is allegedly to deal with social welfare. At least that is what we have been told in the past few days by the Minister and by various newspaper headlines. The newspapers have trumpeted the fact that this will eliminate fraud in the social welfare system. As far as I am concerned the biggest fraud we have been faced with in the past few days is the Bill itself, because it only has a handful of sections dealing with relatively minor matters against social welfare fraud while it makes very significant changes in the entitlement to and qualification for certain social welfare benefits. This is not a Bill seriously aimed at reducing welfare fraud. It is an attempt to introduce social welfare cuts by the back door.

The Minister announced that he was going to introduce a Bill to take certain measures against employers who were co-operating in social welfare fraud. When the Bill was published the media, with few exceptions, accepted this and never looked beyond the first paragraph of the explanatory memorandum to discover that there was far more to it than that and that, in fact, if proposed very significant cutbacks in the areas of disability and maternity benefits.

This Bill is also clearly in breach of the commitments given in the Fianna Fáil election manifesto and in the Programme for National Recovery which was recently negotiated with the social partners. The Fianna Fáil election manifesto said quite specifically that Fianna Fáil would maintain benefits in real terms. The Programme for National Recovery was even more specific. It said:

The Government will maintain the overall value of social welfare benefits and, within the resources available, will consider special provisions for greater increases for those receiving the lowest payments.

The ink on that agreement was hardly dry when this Bill was produced. Yet what it provided was not the maintenance of overall value of social welfare payments but major cutbacks involving qualification for disability benefits, invalidity pensions and maternity allowances.

It is extraordinary, given this Government's alleged commitment to family and motherhood, that the maternity allowance schemes have been singled out for particular attention. The Bill represents a particularly objectionable attack on the social welfare rights of women. Ireland was the last country in the EC to introduce maternity legislation and now we are the first to start cutting it back. The Coalition Government in 1984 reduced the level of maternity benefit payable to women in employment from 80 per cent to 70 per cent. Now this Government are trying to take away the PRSI element for women getting maternity benefit who are out of the workforce.

Incidentally, in relation to the points made by Deputy Abbott that it is only fair that women out of contact with work should lose the pay-related benefit, let me ask him if he would apply his mind to the fact that most civilised and modern men would regard the activities of the woman in the home at least as work, and that it is highly insulting to the women of this country who choose to stay in the home to rear their children not to regard that as work. If the Deputy were to think carefully about it he might retract that remark.

Is the Deputy saying that it should be universal?

It is significant also that our Constitution guarantees that the woman should not be obliged to work outside the home. Clearly there is a contradiction and dilemma for Fianna Fáil in what they are proposing here today in relation to maternity benefit.

The decision to abolish entitlement to pay-related benefit in the case of all new claims for maternity benefit under the general scheme is particularly sinister. It is the first time that the pay-related element of any benefit has been abolished in its entirety. It may be that the Government are testing the water to see what the reaction would be to a wider attack on the pay-related system.

Sections 2 to 7 of the Bill deal with measures directed against employers who may be co-operating with employees in social welfare fraud. We have no problems at all with these sections. Indeed we feel that in some respects the penalties may not be heavy enough. I have no doubt that a large amount of social welfare fraud does go on and that involving people working and claiming can only go on with the co-operation of the employer. Some employers have, in fact, been encouraging employees to claim as it enables them to pay a level of wages below the normal rates. Indeed, I have come across cases where employers have refused to employ men and women unless they remained on social welfare.

However, it is important that we should keep this problem in proportion and not be taken in by the concerted campaign by some sections of the media and a number of public representatives to wildly exaggerate the nature and extent of social welfare abuse. It is an indisputable fact that social welfare fraud exists but suggestions that this is costing the country hundreds of millions of pounds are wild exaggeration and appear to be part of a campaign designed to undermine confidence in the social welfare system on the one hand and, on the other, to pave the way for the sort of cutbacks which this Bill provides for, and also to promote ill-feeling between those in work and those out of work.

Anyone who deals on a daily basis with those dependent on social welfare knows that benefits are normally paid out only after the most rigorous checking. Very often people in real need are deprived of payment by complicated bureaucratic procedures. It is also important to remember that for every case where somebody is claiming social welfare benefit to which they are not entitled, many more through ignorance of the system are failing to claim their full entitlement. The former Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Desmond, said in the Dáil last year that the Department did not have the resources to undertake formal measurement of the level of non-take-up of social welfare benefits. We can only guess at the level of non-take-up, but it is likely that the gain to the State as a result of this is many times greater than the loss through social welfare abuse. I would refer to two items, in particular, in this regard.

When the family income supplement was introduced, we were told that it would benefit 35,000 families. Not more than 5,000 have ever availed of that scheme. So far as I am aware, no investigation has ever taken place to find out why there is this discrepancy between the two figures. I proposed on a number of occasions in this House that the least we could do was notify people who are at work — because this scheme is specifically for people who are on low pay and at work — with their tax-free allowance forms each year that people earning below a certain amount can and should apply for a family income supplement. Vague reference has been made to the difficulty in co-ordinating the Department of Social Welfare and the Revenue Commissioners. I have never had a satisfactory answer to my queries but would be very interested to know what the present Minister's thoughts are on how the family income supplement could be used to take many thousands of families out of the poverty trap in which they are lodged at present.

The second point I wanted to make in relation to non-take-up is that the only survey that I have seen in that regard was carried out during a social welfare rights week which was organised, I think, last year. Out of a thousand inquiries in one week which the Dublin welfare group sent out, one in six were not getting their correct entitlements in terms of disability benefit, unemployment assistance, medical cards and so forth. It is obviously not an accurate measure of the problem but is an indication that there is a problem there and a significant one.

As I have stated previously, The Workers' Party Deputies in this House are absolutely opposed to anyone making fraudulent claims on social welfare. However, I have to qualify that by stating that in many cases which I have come across the people involved in claiming benefits or allowances to which they were not, strictly speaking, entitled are driven to it through poverty, because they are in the hands of moneylenders, because they see their families lacking in food, clothing, or other necessities of life. What we need is not a witch hunt against social welfare recipients. We need a calm and rational programme to end the social welfare abuse that exists and at the same time ensure that all those in need get their full entitlements.

It is most objectionable, in particular, that single mothers are selected as the constant target for those complaining about social welfare abuse. Unmarried mothers are very soft targets for right wing politicians and the morally self-righteous in our society. The myth that young women deliberately conceive in order to qualify for the unmarried mother's allowance is just that, a myth. First, the level of unmarried mother's allowance is still well below that necessary to allow a mother and child to live their lives with any degree of comfort and dignity. Secondly, for the majority of single mothers it is simply a temporary status and most eventually marry and forfeit their unmarried mother's allowance. I understand that in the majority of cases that happens within 12 months of the birth of their first child.

A regular series of articles on alleged social welfare fraud contrasts sharply with the silence of newspapers and, indeed, television on the matter of tax evasion and avoidance which has been clearly shown to this House, through parliamentary questions, to be going on in our society. It is a fact that nobody seeks to deny that there is a vast industry out there of accountants who assist in a very big way in this area. Such evasion and avoidance certainly amount to many hundreds of times the loss to the State from all social welfare frauds combined.

I should like to make one or two further points in relation to fraud, particularly with regard to statements which have been made in this House. The Minister tended to confuse a number of terms. I do not know if he did this deliberately or otherwise. He talked of overpayments of social welfare, of withholding of social welfare payments by employers and about abuse and fraud. Could he tell me if he regards all those terms as referring to the one thing? Does he regard them all as fraud? Is abuse the same as fraud? Is withholding or overpayment the same as fraud? I know of many people who have received benefits and allowances to which they were not entitled, not because they went out deliberately to defraud the system but because the system itself could not stop those payments when they were received. Does anyone seriously think that a man with a family who receives in the post a cheque for £70 or £80 to which he is not entitled will put the cheque back in the post, if he has in his pocket an ESB bill for £70, or a gas bill for £100, or a rent bill for £200?

There should be clarity in the terminology that we use. It is beginning to be accepted that all overpayments of social welfare are abuses and fraud on the part of the claimant, when clearly that is not the case. A figure was used here tonight of £36 million for fraud. If my memory serves me correctly, Deputy Jim Mitchell referred to that figure which is in the Minister's speech, saying that the Minister claimed that £36 million was recovered as a result of clamping down on fraud. That is my paraphrase. What the Minister actually said was:

This year, for instance, we are well on target to achieve savings in excess of £36 million within my Department through a series of measures including some to eliminate fraud and abuse and others to achieve more effective use of resources, for example by providing opportunities for the long term unemployed.

The Minister would do this House and the public a service if he were to clarify exactly what he is talking about when using that phrase of £36 million savings. Would he specify for us how much of that sum is as a result of overpayment to claimants through no fault of their own, how much is as a result of fraud on the part of claimants, how much is as a result of fraud on the part of employers, how much is simply savings made through efficiencies in the system and so on. I have no doubt that in tomorrow morning's newspapers this figure of £36 million will be portrayed as the level of fraud and abuse of the system and as the saving carried out in that respect.

The Minister also referred to disability benefit. He quoted figures which, on the face of it, seem starting. He said:

Of 88,000 claimants referred to medical referees this year, 19,000 were found to be capable of work and 3,000 ceased to claim benefit. A further 19,000 persons failed to attend for examination and except in a small number of cases where there was good reason for their failure to attend, they were liable to a nine week disqualification and a second referral.

Taking that on its own, one would assume that the Minister had suddenly found these 88,000 people, of whom 19,000 had been found out and so on. From page 33 of the report on the statistical information of the social services for 1986 it is clear that what the Minister is talking about is nothing new. It is quite common for such large numbers to be called to be examined by a medical referee. It is quite common for a large number not to turn up and it is also quite common for a large number to be found fit for work. The figures the Minister quoted are not much larger in many cases than the figures for 1985 and 1986.

In 1985, the number of persons summoned for examination was some 75,000. In 1986, it was some 82,000 and in 1987, presumably up until this month, it was some 88,000. Therefore, the Minister has called in 6,000 more than were called in last year when 7,000 more were called in than was the case in 1985. In 1985, the number found capable of work was 14,000. In 1986, the corresponding figure was 14,000 and in 1987 it is 19,000, an increase of 5,000. However, the Minister went on to say that the number of persons who did not attend for examination is 19,000 but that figure is the same as that for 1985. Indeed, in 1986 the figure was 25,000.

So far as those statistics are concerned, the Minister has not unearthed any great new vein of abuse in the system. What the Minister has revealed in his figures is that he is continuing the process which has been in existence for many years which involves calling in, presumably at random, thousands upon thousands of people each year to be examined by a medical referee to prove that they are still unfit for work. Practically every Deputy in this House deals with people on a weekly basis who have been found fit for work but who, certainly to the layman's eye, are clearly unfit for work.

One must ask to what extent the increase from 14,000 last year to 19,000 this year is simply a tightening up of the criteria for fitness for work.

Do you welcome that?

I have already said that I am opposed to abuse of the system but I am also opposed to the abuse of people simply in the interest of proving that fraud or abuse exists. I have dealt with constituents who although clearly unfit for work have been found to be fit for work and who have been put through a process month after month of trying to prove that they are unfit for work. I had one case of a young woman who was barely able to walk after having discs removed from her back but who was found fit to work. I am asking the Minister to indicate whether the criteria for deciding fitness for work have been changed.

Do the guidelines which have been given to the medical referees now differ in any way from those which existed last year or the year before?

I will explain the difference later.

As there are other Deputies waiting to get in I do not want to delay the House but my main point is that we should approach this matter in a very calm and rational way and should not take figures for this year without comparing them with figures for last year. While we must acknowledge that there is abuse and fraud, we must also acknowledge that there is a significant degree of underclaiming of benefits and of delays in payment as a result of the bureaucratic tangle which is the social welfare system.

The present system of social welfare is without doubt incredibly complex and complicated. There are nearly 40 different categories of recipient and about 23 different rates of payment, some of them with less than £1 between them. Simplification and streamlining of the system could eliminate much of the abuse and would ensure a full level of take up by all who are entitled to benefit. It would help both recipients and administrators and free resources for other work such as the collection, as I said earlier, of unpaid taxes.

Our objections to this Bill are based on the cutbacks contained in sections 8 to 11 and part of section 16. Under section 8 persons will now have to have at least five years paid contributions to qualify for payment of disability benefit for a period of more than 12 months. Section 9 applies a similar provision to invalidity pension. It is important to remember that only 12 months ago the requirement was only three years paid contributions; this was increased earlier this year to four years. Now, it is being increased to five years. This will mean, for instance, that a young person who has not had an opportunity to build up five years contributions and who falls ill will be deprived of benefit after 12 months irrespective of whether his or her health had recovered. There seems to be no justification for this move other than that of penny pinching and further petty restrictions.

All sorts of claims have been made about abuses in the disability benefit system, particularly involving women, but none of these have been substantiated. Great play is made by both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael of the fact that a large proportion of those who are referred to a medical referee for a second opinion are either found to be fit for work or do not attend and go back to work voluntarily. To some extent I have dealt with that matter in the figures I have quoted. What is significant is that what is never referred to is that only a small proportion, around one quarter, are called to go before a medical referee for a second opinion.

It can take up to four weeks to get a second medical opinion. The fact that someone fails to turn up or is found to be fit for work in no way implies a fake claim. Most people are ill for far less than four weeks. Indeed, the average duration of illness is 11 to 12 days. Therefore, it is quite natural that, given the delay in getting a second opinion, people themselves will decide that they are now fit for work and will have improved sufficiently to allow the referee to decide that they are fit for work. Most people will accept the advice of a medical referee or of their own doctor.

Section 10 provides, in the cases of claims under the old maternity allowance scheme, that, for new claims commencing after 4 January next, of the paid or credited contributions which claimants are required to have in the governing contribution year, at least 13 must be paid contributions. This will affect some 9,000 women who benefit under this scheme each year and will discriminate against women who are out of the workforce voluntarily or who have become unemployed. Section 11 provides for the abolition of entitlement to paid benefit in the case of all new claims for maternity allowance under the old maternity allowance scheme. This, again, will discriminate against women who are out of the workforce voluntarily or who have become unemployed. These are women who will have contributed PRSI for many years, possibly 10 or more, who will have paid their PRSI in the expectation of qualifying for a certain level of benefit, including maternity benefit, if and when they should need it, and who will now find that that has been arbitrarily scrapped by the Government.

Section 16 (b) provides for the introduction of three waiting days for all women transferring from maternity allowance to disability benefit. This means that the woman will be left with no income for three days. One must ask, how is she expected to feed herself in that period? In most cases women transferring from maternity allowance to disability benefit do so because of pregnancy related conditions. I regard that as a mean and petty requirement.

The Minister in the course of his speech said that between 5 per cent and 10 per cent of claimants abuse their claim at some stage. I should like the Minister to be more specific about that. When he talks about abuse is he referring to claimants receiving payments which they may not be entitled to, something they may not be aware of? Is the Minister referring to a deliberate decision by claimants to defraud the system? Will the Minister indicate how he has come to the conclusion that the system is being defrauded in this way?

I should like to refer to the disallowance of people seeking unemployment assistance. On many occasions I drew attention to the fact that many young people do not get any benefit between the ages of 16 and 18 years. Young persons living at home with parents who have an income, even if they are more than 18, do not receive any benefit. There are many people who are not so young and who live with their parents and must exist on a very small allowance. A new problem has arisen because of the introduction of equality legislation last year. A man who was formerly automatically entitled to unemployment assistance and to an adult dependant rate for his wife is now no longer entitled to unemployment assistance if his wife is earning. Before the equality legislation was introduced there was discrimination against women but we now have reverse discrimination in that men are being deprived of unemployment assistance. In many cases men who are not living with their wives or are separated are being discriminated against. Many anomalies exist in our system and I urge a dramatic overhaul of it.

I should like to advise Deputy Barnes that the debate must move to the Government side and that the Minister must be called not later than 10.15 p.m. Deputy Ahern, who is now offering, is entitled to take all that time if he wishes but, mindful of the fact that Deputy Barnes has waited so patiently, I ask him to make allowances.

I will give Deputy Barnes an opportunity to contribute. Before I deal with the provisions in the Bill I should like to make a number of general points in relation to social welfare. I was delighted to hear the Minister announce an extension of the alleviating measures. Credit should be given where credit is due and I was surprised that Opposition speakers, particularly those from the Labour Party and The Workers' Party, who complain about many aspects of the social welfare system, did not laud that move by the Minister. We are all aware that if that measure was withdrawn many people would be left in great need. The Minister has extended the £12 or £20 payment from the end of the year to next April and I congratulate him for that decision.

The Jobsearch scheme which was criticised in the early days of its operation has proved a great success. Following the results of a pilot scheme in four different centres the Government decided to extend the Jobsearch scheme to the entire country. I understand that in the region of 131,000 people have been interviewed under that scheme. We may have doubts about whether people will find jobs following their participation in the scheme but I understand that 4,000 people have been placed in jobs and that 26,500 people have been placed on Manpower or social employment schemes. That is an indication of the success of the scheme. It is worth remembering that 57 per cent of the people on the Jobsearch scheme had been on the live register for three or more years. It is right that we should make every effort to help such people to get a job. I visited the Jobsearch centre in my town on a number of occasions and I was pleased to see the number of people, many of whom are middle-aged, who were involved. It is difficult for such people to find a job in this day and age if they do not have the necessary skills and that is one of the reasons why the Government decided to extend the scheme to the entire country.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on producing the revised guide to social welfare services, which is compulsive reading for those involved with those services or who deal with the public. The last guide was issued in 1983 and we have not had a review since. The new guide will be a tremendous help to politicians and others who have dealings with the public. Those involved in the social welfare system should procure a copy of the guide at any social welfare office.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his work in the Department of Social Welfare since he took office. In this age of cutbacks he has fought his corner at the Cabinet table very well. It is obvious that the Department of Social Welfare have not suffered greatly as a result of Government cutbacks. For example, in July the Minister was able to announce a 3 per cent increase in all rates. He was able to improve the family income supplement scheme and make it slightly more relevant than it has been to date. The Minister also extended treatment benefits. That has been on the cards for many years and former Governments have been criticised for not bringing such a scheme forward. I am pleased that Fianna Fáil brought it forward and that the take-up has been good, particularly in regard to dental treatment, despite initial opposition. We should welcome the extension of social insurance to the self-employed. Everybody should be covered in the social insurance scheme.

We should welcome the move to computerisation in the Department of Social Welfare. I accept that it has not been introduced solely by the Minister but it has proved of tremendous help in the Department. The Minister should be complimented for paying the Christmas bonus this year. At a time of financial cutbacks it was a tremendous achievement to get the money to give a bonus to those on social welfare benefit at Christmas. I do not think the Minister, or the Government, have been given sufficient credit for that decision.

The Bill takes care of a number of anomalies that have manifested themselves in the social welfare code over the years. I am surprised that quite a number of these have not been taken care of before now. In particular the section which refers to trade disputes is excellent in that now it refers only to the persons directly affected in the trade dispute: in other words, people who got financial help during the dispute, may find ultimately that they are disqualified from gaining from social welfare. I am surprised that was not taken on board by the previous Government of which the Labour Party were a member.

Every Member of this House will agree there is a need to ensure that fraud is kept to an absolute minimum. We are all aware of the report that fraud is prevalent. There have been reports in my constituency, which is close to the Border, that some people may hop across the Border and claim both in the Twenty-six Counties and in the North. A crackdown has taken place on this practice over a number of years and it is not as prevalent as it was. I note from the Minister's speech that a number of units have been set up in a number of years. The most recent one set up since we took office was the joint inspection unit under a pilot scheme whereby the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Welfare work hand-in-hand using computers to ensure that fraud does not take place. This is to be welcomed.

An aspect of the entire social welfare code that worries me is the fact that the PRSI number provided is allocated by the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Finance. If we are to eliminate fraud we will have to provide that there is one number throughout all Departments; whoever gives that number, it should be an absolute number for each person. The social welfare code has a problem when these numbers emanate from the Revenue Commissioners rather than from the Department of Social Welfare.

I understand the external control unit look into the unemployment claims and interview people in relation to them. The special investigation unit take care of concurrent working and signing on and I understand that a number of savings have been made in relation to that in the past year or so.

In regard to fraud, the aspect addressed in this Bill is in relation to employers. Anyone who knows about prosecutions knows that up to now there have been very few prosecutions of employers in regard to social welfare. As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. Most prosecutions to date have been of employees, as I am quite aware. This Bill tries to address the problem by providing that once an employer takes somebody on he must notify the Department of Social Welfare of the commencement of the employment. This is to be welcomed because employers have been taking people on and an arrangement has been made between them that the employee continues to get the benefit of social welfare. That should not happen. Perhaps this is one way we will be able to get rid of that problem.

Another provision for the elimination of fraud is in relation to furnishing particulars of the employee, details of his earnings and the period in which these earnings have been made. Up to now the inspectors have been unable to get as much co-operation from employers as they would require to investigate claims quickly. Another provision is for inspectors to enter the premises of selfemployed people and demand the records.

Section 17 provides that a dependant of a recipient who dies may receive benefit for six weeks after the time of death. After a death dependants may face a period of trauma and problems in trying to make ends meet. Not as much publicity is given to this as should be.

Section 18 relates to mobility allowance which is not now regarded as means in the calculation for non-contributory pension. I understand a number of people have been affected by this. It is a pity that up to now some people have been disallowed non-contributory pensions because they have been in receipt of mobility allowance.

In regard to the social welfare system generally I understand the Minister intends to set up one-stop shops in the employment exchanges. This should have been done ages ago. Years ago, unfortunately, employment exchanges were what they were called, employment exchanges. Nowadays they are somewhere for people to go and get their weekly pay-out and there is no question of them getting a job by going to that building. With the one-stop shops people can go into the building and be referred, if they wish, to someone from AnCO or Manpower under the new body FÁS to get assistance in job location, rather than having to go from one building to another in a town. The one-stop shops are to be welcomed.

I commend this Bill to the House. It should be given due consideration and be supported by the other side of the House. Now I will let other speakers in.

The Chair acknowledges Deputy Ahern's co-operation and calls on Deputy Barnes who has eight minutes.

Thank you. I appreciate your helpful intervention in getting me even eight minutes. I thank Deputy Ahern also for granting me eight minutes which I shall use to address what Second Stage is all about, the principle of the Bill. I shall not have time to go through some of the other areas.

There is general welcome for the provisions regarding fraud. I will add my voice to those who have said that employers who defraud their employees of very large sums of PRSI contributions to the extreme distress of those employees must be looked at seriously. I welcome the fact that a joint inspection unit has been drawn from the Revenue and Social Welfare inspectorates to work on a pilot basis to investigate enterprises which are known to have a high incidence of tax and social welfare fraud. One of the shames and embarrassments of this Chamber is the fact that we have not brought in the right companies legislation to cover employers who have acted in an unjust, immoral and criminal way. Our companies legislation should enable us to take action against such people who close a business one day and open next day at another address and behave in the same way. This should not be allowed. We will not have the powers needed to deal with such people until we introduce the necessary companies legislation.

I will turn now to the abolition of the entitlement to the old maternity allowance scheme. Section 11 will provide for the abolition of entitlement to payrelated benefit in the case of new claims for the old maternity allowance scheme. I want to remind the House that on 14 May 1985 the Joint Committee on Women's Rights published their second report. There is a certain amount of discrimination against women in the area of social welfare and a lack of acceptance and value put on our work in the home. Deputy De Rossa has already referred to this and Deputy Abbott made insulting reference to it too. As I am an optimist all I can hope is that, as Deputy Abbott is now a member of the Committee on Women's Rights, at the end of this tenure he will have a greater appreciation and insight into the value and work of women.

The introduction of this section in the Bill is a denial and a contradiction of everything the all-party committee recommended in 1985. Paragraph 9.1 of that report reads:

Often women have to cease working for a variety of reasons, such as to have a baby or to care for a sick member of the family. This type of work which is done outside of direct employment is still a valuable contribution to the welfare of society and the Joint Committee agrees with the suggestion put forward by many groups and individuals that a system of credits should be introduced for such women who have to temporarily leave the workforce. Such a system would ensure that a woman, while receiving no benefits during her year or two period at home would be able to re-enter the workforce without any break in her contribution sequence. The Joint Committee feels that it would be socially and economically desirable that women and men who take time off work to look after their children should also get credits and the Department of Social Welfare should be working towards this end.

At page 18 paragraph 5.4 the committee recommend:

The fact that maternity benefit is paid to insured workers only raises many questions relating to child rearing and it is another example of the discrimination levelled against the woman in the home. The Joint Committee recommends the extension of maternity payment to all women regardless of their "insured" or "uninsured" status.

Two years later we find that these recommendations have not been taken up. I urge the Minister to realise that this section in the Bill deals a blow to women, totally devalues their position in the home and does not take into account the discrimination against women while they are unemployed and are not earning. To deprive a woman of credits in that short period, when her earnings are only 50 per cent to 60 per cent of men's earnings in any case, is a disgrace. Instead of cutting back and denying women credits, in every sense of the word, to maternity benefits — because they are ensuring the next generation — what we should be doing is increasing their benefits.

I am sorry I do not have more time to go into more detail but this trend must be reversed and, under the employment equality legislation, positive discrimination in favour of women should be allowed. This should apply not just to women in employment but also when they leave the workforce to bring children into this world. It is very disillusioning that the words in the Constitution and the work of women in the home have not been taken seriously and that once again women are being discriminated against.

I will deal first with Deputy Barnes' comments. I welcome her support for the action we are taking to deal with employers, and her very even handed treatment of the old maternity scheme. She has this matter in persective. The new maternity scheme applies to all women at work. The old maternity scheme could have been abandoned in 1981 when I brought in the new scheme but I did not abandon it because I was afraid some people might lose out in the short term.

Deputy Barnes and others suggested there should be a new system. Deputy Barnes put this in its broadest context particularly referring to the work of the joint committee when she said there should be arrangements made for special credits. That would be an equitable across the board system. What exists at the moment are the remnants of a system which has been there for years with many people signing for credits only having left the workforce. In that case we have to ask ourselves if all the women who have left the workforce and have not signed for credits are entitled to those benefits. I often hear that argument. We will bear this suggestion in mind but how far we will get with it in the near future is another question. I certainly appreciate the way Deputy Barnes expressed her concern.

Deputy Mitchell said he would like to see longer prison sentences. I said at the outset that I would be open to the views of the House as they relate to employers. The Deputy said he would be putting down amendments and I will look very sympathetically at them. He also mentioned officials being grounded and cutbacks in the area of investigating frauds. There were no cutbacks. More was spent on travel for the investigation of fraud last year than ever before but, at the end of the year, every section must try to keep within their budget. A case arose in the north-western region which was given very wide publicity. I looked into it right away but it did not have any bearing on the activities in that area. Investigations nearer home were being carried out in the last six weeks of the year, and there were many such cases, but one thing we made clear was that, if money was needed to carry out investigations, it would be available.

Deputy Jim Mitchell also raised the question of rationalising multiple means tests. A study of this is in progress under the Department of Health and we expect a report early in the New Year. Meanwhile, the Department of Social Welfare are looking at their own schemes to see if they can be rationalised. Deputy Jim Mitchell also said he was disturbed at the lack of targeting of resources to special cases. We will certainly be targeting the resources as well as we can. Several Deputies asked what we would do with the savings effected. I explained in my speech on the Estimate last week that we were able to offset increases and to avoid cutbacks in schemes as a result of the savings. We were able to extend alleviating payments to the end of the year, which I know Deputies welcome, with moneys saved. Indeed, we hope to extend them to the end of April and to examine them further in the context of the budget for next year. Our savings have had a bearing on that decision by the Government.

Deputy Jim Mitchell raised the question of moneylenders. I know that most Deputies are concerned at the operations of moneylenders and, in deference to him, I will ask the Combat Poverty Agency to look at that area to see if they have a project that might be helpful in that respect. It is really an area for the Minister for Justice but we are concerned at the poverty and the implications for the people with whom we are directly concerned.

Deputy Jim Mitchell also referred to the need for special quarterly payments. I will certainly bear that in mind as I know that many Deputies are keen to see such payments. However, that is a budgetary matter. Deputy Wyse stressed the fact that he supports the actions against fraud and that he wants to see the money used for the poorest sections. That is also my objective and we must ensure that the resources are made available to those in greatest need. At the same time, we must ensure that the interest of the taxpayers is protected and that fraud and abuse of the system is reduced to the lowest level possible. Deputy Wyse also spoke about the number of people affected by the withdrawal of disability benefit and maternity allowance. Three thousand people are affected by the withdrawal of the old maternity scheme and 2,000 claimants out of 242,000 will be affected next year by the cut in the disability allowance.

Deputy Bell mentioned the fact that a person can accumulate contributions and that it is not a question of continuous payments. It means that long term disability benefit, beyond 12 months, will require 260 contributions. This is a major benefit and creates a substantial demand on the social insurance fund. In that context, I do not consider the amount of contributions to be an unreasonable requirement. I should also point out to Deputy Wyse that existing claims are not affected; it only applies to claims made at the beginning of next year.

The Craig Gardner report on the internal workings of the Department is aimed at cutting out fraud and abuses of all sorts and providing higher security within the system. I will certainly consider publishing a summary of the principal recommendations and making it available to Deputies. The report is only secret in so far as the question of security is concerned and if it was made public in that regard you could forget about security systems. The report stresses that there is a hard core of 2 per cent fraud in disability benefit and unemployment assistance and that there is a suspect area up to 7 per cent. I should point out to Deputy Bell that one of the benefits of the extension of dental and optical care to the spouses of full rate PRSI workers is that many of the women concerned will keep those benefits. Deputy Bell also said that the Commission on Social Welfare made no recommendation in relation to disability benefit. They recommended a whole new scheme through the employers and we are looking at that area.

Deputy Bell said he planned to oppose some sections of the Bill. Perhaps we can discuss these issues more widely tomorrow, but we must rationalise our schemes and trim our sails in any way we can if we are to maintain the benefits for those who need them most. I was surprised that Deputy Bell did not welcome the alleviating payments because I know he has a great interest in that area.

Which area?

I was saying that alleviating payments will be extended to next year.

I will welcome that tomorrow.

Deputy De Rossa welcomed those payments but he was inclined to say that there were no major initiatives in regard to fraud. I think they are major. I am talking now of the employer side. These measures arise mainly from our own ideas and from the reports of inspectors and staff dealing with this area. These reports indicate that there are loopholes in the system and that this is the reason for employers not being caught. Our people are sent around in circles and at the end of the day they cannot nail those responsible for the fraud. The purpose of these measures is to close the loopholes. I am confident that this will have a major effect.

Deputies have asked about prosecutions in regard to employers. Seven employers were prosecuted in 1985, six in 1986 and to date in 1987, 13 cases have been referred for prosecution. In any event, the Deputies generally support our efforts in that area. It was also mentioned that the cuts in disability benefit were particularly severe. A total saving of about £4 million out of a total of £220 million will be achieved in that area. In the Estimates for next year we have to face up to various potential areas for rationalisation. I would like to point out to Deputy De Rossa that the savings prevent cutbacks in times of scarce resources and that we are not paving the way for further cuts. I have appointed a consultant to examine the FIS scheme and I hope to have a report in the not-too-distant future on the take-up rate for the scheme.

As I do not have time any more at this point, I will deal with the remaining questions on Committee Stage. Deputy De Rossa had a great deal of information, as is his wont, and went into great detail on disability benefit statistics. I think the most significant figure is a reduction of 9,000 in the number per week claiming since February of this year. You may ask why? The criteria did not change.

There were cutbacks.

Because of computerisation it is possible to call people at a time when they would normally go back to work. Therefore, the system is more efficient.

The cuts in FIS——

That is a matter of difference.

May I just stress that my statistics are drawn from official sources.

I appreciate that and I compliment the Deputy of being so well prepared.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 86; Níl, 17.

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Martin Patrick.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Geraldine.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCoy, John S.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Colley, Anne.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Mooney, Mary.
  • Morely, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Malley, Pat.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Swift, Brian.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Bell, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Browne; Níl, Deputies Howlin and De Rossa.
Question declared carried.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Tomorrow.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 16 December 1987.
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