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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988

Vol. 378 No. 4

Valuation Bill, 1987 [Seanad]: Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill".

I must question whether there is a necessity for the setting up of this tribunal. During my speech on Second Stage I expressed considerable doubt as to its necessity. I also questioned the taking away of these matters from the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court.

The valuation tribunal is to consist of three individuals who will be travelling around the country hearing these cases. A secretariat will have to be appointed and undoubtedly a large number of staff will be attached to the tribunal. This will entail very considerable expense because of the peripatetic nature of the tribunal's work. The structure already exists for having these cases heard in open court before a Circuit Court judge. At a time of very scarce resources when everybody is told about the need for financial prudence, I have reservations about the wisdom of setting up this totally new structure. Will they have their own headquarters and if so where will they be situated? How many people will be attached to the tribunal? Will there be ten, 15 or 20 people involved in hearing the valuations around the country or will there be a limited number of people? Each sitting of the tribunal will consist of three people but certainly a secretariat will be involved as well.

When so many efforts are being made in different spheres to reduce costs and overheads and where people are laid off from different positions this item strikes me as being an unnecessary luxury which the country can ill afford. When bodies like An Foras Talúntais and ACOT are being done away with and when doctors and nurses and civil servants are being laid off I doubt whether, at present, there is a demand for this valuation tribunal. I question it and I am concerned about it. Can we now afford to set up this valuation tribunal? I do not think we can afford it. I have not heard of any demand for it. I know there are some valuers who have been unhappy with our courts system. The point the Minister made on Second Stage, which is reasonable enough, was that the required expertise may not be there and that it would involve a good knowledge of planning and valueing of properties and so on and that only qualified people would be appointed on the valuation tribunal, people who would have the necessary expertise in deciding on particular cases.

Surely the different judges who would be appointed would have that expertise and the case would be put on behalf of the Valuation Office on the one hand and, on the other hand, by the appellant. Judges are deciding on matters of far greater intricacy and of greater delicacy and say that they might not be particularly competent to make decisions on valuations is an argument that holds very little credibility. It is a weak argument and not one that I could willingly accept.

I would like the Minister to outline to the House, how we on the final Stages of the Bill, it having already passed through the Seanad, precisely whether three people will be sitting on the hearings? How many people does he envisage will be attached to the valuation tribunal? Will the tribunal be setting up its own headquarters? Where will these people have their head office? How many staff does the Minister envisage will be attached to the head office? There is no demand for this particular valuation tribunal. At a time of very scarce resources when everybody is being told to cut back and to tighten their belt I doubt the necessity for such a tribunal and I have great reservations about it in that the cost will have to be met.

In the later sections of the Bill fees are prescribed and the person who will have to pay those is the small shopkeeper down the country when his valuation is increased. The small factory who is not satisfied with their valuation will also have to pay these fees. Alternatively, if it is not paid for by those who are appealing it will have to be paid for by the taxpayer. As the resources are scarce I think they could be better spent elsewhere. Perhaps the Minister would reply to those points.

I wish to follow on in the general direction in which Deputy Enright is going but with one or two qualifications. The first is that there is a statable case for the tribunal on the ground that what is required is the degree of continuity as between different rating judgments taken in different Circuit Courts and by different judges. The whole process of determining a valuation appeal is one which is, by its very nature, an artificial process because the statutory basis of valuation, even though improved by the 1986 Act, still remains a rather Archaean art to put it mildly. The idea of deciding what the annual letting value of a premises in mid-19th century was and determining people's liability to pay a municipal property tax on that basis is itself rather strange.

The 1986 Act, as I understand it, at least had the benefit for the first time that it allowed the courts to do what they had already been doing unofficially — and to some extent without any legal mandate whatsoever — and that was to do some justice in the matter by having regard to other valuations which applied and not applying the strict letter of the law in relation to what evaluation of a premises should actually be. The tone of the rating list had always to be maintained with regard to the differentials between valuations of different properties. On the basis of that philosophy of maintaining the tone of the list the courts found themselves entitled, as a matter of moral justice, if not legal justice, to depart from the principle of establishing the literal annual value of premises and substituting this extraordinary notion of historic annual value related to a bygone age.

In that context I believe that since courts are being asked at present to entertain appeals in circumstances in which the volume of appeals varies very much from one place to another and the nature of the appeals heard by Circuit Court judges changes fairly dramatically from case to case and where principles which are brought to bear on rating appeals also are ones which are not easily obtained and are not part of the general corpus of the law as lawyers understand it, it has been my experience that it is becoming a very recherché subject for lawyers to practice in. It is one in which the availability of a volume of case law is not there to make it simply understood to the layman or even to the legal practitioner who is suddenly forced to deal with a rating appeal. No doubt, Deputy Enright has extensive practice in the matter but I know of many legal practitioners who do not have such expertise and to whom the whole thing is a frightening process. From that point of view when some of those legal practitioners end up on the bench I wonder if they have an accumulated expertise in valuation law such as would enable them to bring their intellectual faculties to bear on the issue before them in an educated way. I doubt it very much in some cases. They have to learn the law as they go along and that is somewhat unsatisfactory.

From that point of view I welcome the principle of a tribunal where the same standards will be applied, presumably throughout the country, and the personnel will specialise in dealing with the issues before them, but I do have some reservations about the totally open nature of the tribunal as regards eligibility for membership. Is it to be the case that anybody who has any degree of experience will be eligible for appointment? I am not trying to create a preserve for lawyers. Should there not be some statutory criteria on which someone's eligibility should be decided? On looking through the First Schedule to the Bill it struck me that the circumstances in which a person could be appointed are very vague and they are open effectively to the appointment of virtually anyone to serve as a member of the tribunal.

In respect of section 2, I agree there is no demand for a tribunal of this kind. One could not imagine there being demonstrations on the streets calling for the establishment of this tribunal or that the Circuit Court should not exercise a function in this matter. This strikes me as being a minor improvement and a tinkering with a subject which has a huge flaw built into its very heart and that is the nature of the valuation process itself. If we are to finance local government out of property taxes, such as rates on commercial and industrial premises, we should at some stage apply our minds to the fairness or otherwise of that as a tax base and to the issue as to whether as between different forms of premises it is possible within the concept of annual value to decide fairly between the burden that should be borne between a hotel on the one hand and a factory on the other in supporting the activities of local government.

Even though this tribunal is welcome from the point of view that it would establish fairness and continuity in relation to dealing with particular kinds of decisions, it seems we have not faced up adequately to a different question which is whether it is possible within the concept of annual value to direct the tribunal's mind in any way to the issue of what is the fair annual value of a hotel, a processing plant or a fixed crane in a coalyard as between themselves. Theoretically, why should a hotel in Dublin have a valuation of between £7,000 and £12,000 and a coalyard a valuation of £200? What theoretical basis is there for deciding those relative values?

I appreciate that there are all sorts of concepts such as profitability which are taken into account and that there are concepts such as social function which somehow subliminally seem to be taken into account, but I ask the Minister of State is it not time that we set out a rational basis for deciding as between different classes of property what relative annual values they should be given. I can see as between one hotel and another it is possible to say that the Gresham Hotel is more or less valuable than the Royal Dublin Hotel and should bear a heavier proportion of the burden of municipal rates and I can see how in that context you can ask a tribunal to adjust their liability to municipal rates by reference to their annual value, but I cannot see how the same can be done in relation to a comparison between, say, a solicitor's office and an accountant's office or a takeaway premises and an hotel. I do not see how it is possible within the concept of annual value to attack that intellectual task of deciding how much of the burden of municipal tax yield each of those two premises should bear.

That to me is an issue which the legislature has run away from. We ran away from it in relation to agricultural rates and, as a result, they were completely annihilated by the courts. Although by the 1986 Act and by this particular measure things are becoming more fair, there is still a fundamental irrationality at the heart of it. I ask the Minister of State, and I would like to hear his views on it as to whether we should not go towards a more objective basis for deciding liability to rates such as the value of the premises on the open market. People at least would be able to say that their coalyard is worth £30,000 while that hotel is worth £3 million and therefore, because it is worth only 3 per cent of the value of the other building they should shoulder only that portion of the rateable valuation. If open market value is to be the yardstick for determining liability for municipal rates, why should we not at some stage get into the business of enshrining that principle in our laws because it occurs to me that this tribunal will be asked to make slightly fairer a rather irrational process.

The last question I would like to ask in that context — I do not want to stray too far from section 2 of this Bill — is that I ask the Minister of State to bear in mind whether the principle of what is being done here is consistent with a square footage tax on domestic dwellings to support the local authorities' tax base? If the Government are thinking in terms of square footage as a basis of imposing taxes on domestic dwellings in lieu of domestic rates, would it not be fairer to have a more comprehensive and rational basis, that is, based on the value of the property and nothing to do with square footage in one case and annual value in another? I ask the Minister of State in connection with this tribunal and in justifying this section to indicate a few of his deeper thoughts on the process of rateable valuation.

As we are now on Committee Stage I do not want to turn this debate into a Second Stage discussion but I would just like to reiterate what I said on Second Stage which is that the establishment of a tribunal is a welcome step and, for all of the reasons which are evident to us, it will help to simplify the process in a small way, as has been emphasised by previous speakers.

I have looked again through the First Schedule to the Bill and I ask the Minister of State whether it is necessary that the chairperson of the tribunal must be a lawyer? He indicated in his speech on Second Stage that the chairperson would be a lawyer and I have my reservations about that. I would like to know whether the Minister of State has considered that matter afresh in the light of some of the comments which were made in this House during Second Stage?

A wide range of points have been made in the three contributions made and I will do my best to answer them. Deputy Enright opened the debate on Committee Stage and I would like to assure him on a number of points. It should be borne in mind that the tribunal will take some pressure off the courts which are already overloaded. Many cases are a long time awaiting hearing in the courts. It is a good thing to ease the pressure on the courts as it will have the result that there will be decisions in the many legal cases which are awaiting a hearing. The main purpose in setting up this tribunal is that there will be expedition in the taking of decisions vis-à-vis valuations and revisions which are awaiting decision.

In terms of cost, I do not expect that the tribunal will cost very much. The secretariat will be supplied from within the existing staff of the Civil Service by way of redeployment. Some of the bodies to which Deputy Enright referred might have some expertise which could be availed of in the Valuation Tribunal and maybe their deployment would be a good thing. This could not be regarded as a luxury; it is an essential body which will act in a very fair and consistent way for all the people concerned with valuations. Professional valuers in the private sector have often recommended a tribunal, and a number of individual judges, too, have recommended tribunals over the years.

Deputy McDowell spoke about the members of the tribunal. I want to reiterate what I said on Second Stage. It is the intention to have a chairman, and deputy chairmen who will have legal qualifications. They do not necessarily have to have these qualifications, but the tribunal will be sitting instead of the Circuit Court. It will be a new body, a new tribunal deciding and determining valuations instead of the Circuit Court. The normal practice is that when a tribunal or body is established instead of the courts, the people who head that tribunal are legally qualified. The statute does not state that but it is expected that the chairperson and the deputy chairpersons would be legal people and that other professionally qualified and experienced people from the property and other sectors would be appointed to the tribunal.

Deputy Enright and Deputy McDowell queried the numbers on the tribunal. It is expected that three people will sit on the tribunal at all times, as is normal practice. Deputy Enright spoke about expenses and the difficulties that would arise. It would be expected that this would become a consistent efficient system and that it would be possible to have regional meetings where the tribunal could sit, hear cases and have them determined in the local area taking into account location and access rather than have everyone coming to Dublin to have their cases heard. In future we could regionalise part of the tribunal if that were desired, depending on the amount of work to be done in the region. That is a matter for consideration by the Minister for Finance. I would expect the maximum to be appointed to the tribunal to be nine so that the tribunal could sit in three divisions to be constantly hearing appeals and determining the valuations. As I said, there would be three divisions of nine people — the chairperson and two, a deputy chairperson and two and another deputy chairperson and two. If the appeals were so numerous as to need more than that, the Minister for Finance would have the right to increase the numbers on the tribunal. As I said, the other members on the tribunal would have experience in property, business and commercial activities.

Deputy McDowell spoke about how we assess and reach values, open market values, current market values and a rational basis for deciding valuations. He said the square footage of domestic buildings might be considered by the Government to create a revenue base for the local authorities. This Bill is not set up for that purpose. That would be a matter for the Government to decide at a later date if they saw fit. The aim of this Bill is clearly to create a consistent professional system of determining current rateable values and to assess and levy rates on commercial property. Basically, values are determined as follows. A rental value is adopted and adjusted to maintain the tone of the valuation list.

This is an interim Bill and when we are preparing the modern statute to be introduced in due course, the points made will be taken into acount and considered. There are arguments for and against having an open market value. One could say there are three values on every property — what it is worth, its net book value and what it is worth to any given customer at any given time for any given purpose. That is my opinion and I think most professionals would accept that, too. As I said, there are arguments for and against an open market value. It can be very deceiving at any time and it may be unfair, but the basic principle of valuation is valuing on a net annual value based on the value of the property, the rental income it can create, taking into account location, quality and size and comparing it with similar property in the area.

If one were to compare the Gresham hotel with the Royal Dublin hotel, they might appear comparable because first, both buildings have historic value and their beautiful facade is an attraction, and second point is their commercial location and the flexible options they might provide for investors. Comparing both, their open market value could be comparable or varied, depending on how one looks at them.

I was delighted to hear Deputy McCartan say he had an open mind as to whether the chairman should be a lawyer. Over the years the practice has been that if we are handing the function of the courts to another body, the people who head that body should be legally qualified. I would not like to see any body loaded down with legal brains because it is vital that there be a mix. In this case the chairperson and two deputy chairpersons should have legal qualifications and their colleagues should have property and commercial experience. With that mix it should be possible to give a consistent ongoing appraisal to current values and to make sure valuations are fair and equitable right across the board.

Would the Minister agree that, in the case of the Employment Appeals Tribunal, similar principles apply? In that case there is an employer, an employee and a lawyer in the middle, and, as far as I can recollect, and I am subject to correction, there is a statutory requirement that the chairman of the tribunal should be a barrister, or a solicitor or have some legal qualification. If the same thinking lies behind this Bill, there should be no objection to a Report Stage amendment to make sure that is the case. In my view, this is a matter of some significance. It is not jobs for the boys, the lawyers, that is concerning me. It is a different principle completely. It is independence.

Lawyers are doing very well without the jobs.

Exactly. For instance, the criteria for appointing somebody and the basis on which the mix is to be decided should, so far as possible, be decided by this body rather than left to an administrative decision at a later date. I have in mind the undesirability of having somebody from the Commissioner of Valuations Office acting as chairman of the tribunal. We should legislate to stop that. It would be undesirable that somebody coming before one of these tribunals should face a former close colleague in the dispute. If we think that is undesirable, and most people here do, we should preclude it from happening. Supposing a member of the Valuation Office staff resigned or retired or took early redundancy under the new scheme, is he to be eligible to be a chairman of the tribunal where he is entitled to adjudicate on the application of his former colleagues, when he knows them like the back of his hand? If that is not desirable we should state who we are talking about to act as chairman of this tribunal.

There is no good reason for deviating from the precedent under the Employment Appeals Tribunal which set out who could and who could not be chairman of the tribunal and left some of the other positions at large to be appointed in accordance with administrative policy. This is unfortunate and it opens the door at a later stage to an unpleasant situation where somebody, however impartial he tried to be, would appear to be partial to an ordinary Joe Soap who brought his case before the tribunal. We should lay down the criteria in the statute. I do not see what is desireable about saying that that is the policy now. Why should we not state what the policy is, as closely as we can, in terms of the Act? I am not suggesting that it has to be confined to lawyers but certain people should be precluded from being chairman of this tribunal. One of the advantages of at least stating that it should be a lawyer of 10 years standing, is that it prevents a person who was active on the Valuation Office staff until a few months before, from taking a role in the matter.

An example that also comes to mind is the income tax appeal commissioners. There was a policy of appointment of various classes of people to that position, but there was not a rule and the policy changed and this House did not make that decision. That is unfortunate because in something as crucial as the adjudication of tax appeals the legislative values and the policy decisions should be set out in the Income Tax Acts. It is wrong just to leave it to administrative decision on the part of a Minister for Finance who might be asked by the secretary of his Department to make a particular appointment because somebody suggested that that person should be appointed. It is wrong that the Minister should be at large to make an appointment and the only guidance on the matter being what this Minister of State said on this occasion in the House. Under the Act the Minister should not be entitled to appoint a valuation official. Will the Minister consider accepting an amendment to the Schedule to the Act on the Report Stage to make it clear as to who can and who cannot be chairman of the tribunal, to embody his policy as enunciated, in the letter of the law?

I gather that the Minister will not change his view with regard to leaving the powers that exist with our courts, as distinct from setting up a tribunal.

We are proceeding with the tribunal.

I take the Minister's point and I will not go further with that. It has been suggested that there have been differences in decisions on valuations. Where two human beings are making separate decisions there are often differences and variations. Overall, there was considerable satisfaction with the courts system.

As the Minister is aware rents tribunals were set up under the Rents Restrictions Act. I gather that the rents tribunals are similar to the proposed valuations tribunal. On occasions three wealthy looking gentlemen from the rents tribunal arrived at a small house where usually an old man or woman was living and they spent 15 or 20 minutes inspecting the house and later the rent was increased. I am sure a lot of the people in question wondered as to the necessity of these visits.

The Land Values Reference Committee have power to nominate people to carry out different tasks. They could appoint personnel to hear compulsory acquisitions cases. A compulsory purchase order is a major thing and it could refer to hundreds of thousands of pounds. This body have powers also under the Capital Acquisitions Act. The Land Values Reference Committee consists of the Chief Justice, the President of the High Court and the president of the Chartered Surveyors of Ireland. They appointed two people to hear compulsory purchase cases and capital acquisitions cases. From reports I have had the decisions there have been generally very satisfactory. In this instance instead of setting up a tribunal would the Minister consider appointing a property arbitrator? Values range from £20 to £100. When a property arbitrator can decide on a major issue such as compulsory purchase and capital acquisitions cases, I honestly believe that a property arbitrator in this instance would be satisfactory and would meet the requirement of the Minister admirably. Mr. McDermot and Mr. Shackleton are the two property arbitrators appointed at present and if the Minister made two similar appointments it would meet the situation here.

The appointment of a property arbitrator would be much more effective and would avoid all the paraphernalia that would otherwise be necessary. Quite a number of people feel that one property arbitrator would be sufficient, but if the Minister wanted to have a second arbitrator appointed, so be it, particularly for cases where the valuation was over £50 or £100 as agreed. It is not necessary to have, as of right, a legal person sitting to hear points of law in these circumstances. If a legal person is to be appointed by the Land Values Reference Committee, so be it, but I do not see that by statute a lawyer should be specified. Where a point of law arises, let it be referred to the High Court, specifically and specially. The property arbitrator or arbitrators would be able to hear the cases and a case could be postponed while the point of law arising was decided.

In appointing a property arbitrator, one would need somebody with ten years' experience in the business of valuing property. I should like to see somebody appointed who would also undertake work in a public and private capacity, if at all possible. The Minister very succinctly put his finger on an important point when he stated that he intended to have meetings of the valuation tribunal taking place so that there would be a uniform code and uniform decisions all around the country, as distinct from varied decisions. He is quite correct in that.

Instead of a tribunal, would the Minister consider having a property arbitrator appointed? The final decision could be made by the Land Values Reference Committee. That committee could advertise among their personnel and have some type of screening and then an appointments commissioner could decide on the appointment. That would be fair and impartial. It would give experience and uniformity.

I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy, but I am bound to say that while I appreciate the very great importance of section 2, I must dissuade Members from embarking upon what seem to me to be more Second Reading speeches rather than remarks appropriate to Committee Stage of a Bill of this kind. I must dissuade the Member from making a marathon speech more appropriate to a Second Reading. Indeed, the Deputy did participate on Second Stage of this Bill. I would appreciate it therefore if he would confine his remarks solely to the section and try to avoid straying therefrom.

With respect, the point that I was making was that there was no necessity for a valuation tribunal. What I recommend instead is the appointment of a property arbitrator by the Land Values Reference Committee. I have made my point as fully as I had intended and have outlined the position as I see it. I should be happy to have a reply from the Minister.

I shall reply first to Deputy McDowell's remarks regarding the appointment of the chairperson. The House must clearly decide who that person should or should not be. We have not any strong, fixed views as such on this matter. Our views are open. I would respectfully suggest that the hands of the House should not be tied, as neither should be the hands of the Minister of the day, whoever he or she may be, at any given time on this matter. We are, basically, appointing people. There are standard practices which have operated over the years in the State. Some Statutes and some Acts have clearly decided on the qualifications and professional background of certain people to be appointed to positions on boards. A number of other Acts which have been passed have left the matter reasonably open-ended, but have given some direction or guidance to the Minister. Any Minister would be guided by the views of the House on appointments to be made.

In this case we have looked at situations in respect of similar Bills and Acts and, in particular, at the Farm Tax Tribunal. The appointment of the chairman of that tribunal was open-ended, but it was hoped that it would be a legal person. A legal person, a senior counsel, was appointed. I should like that flexibility to be there. Perhaps somebody from the property sector who had tremendous experience and wanted a change or diversification might like to sit, either as chairperson or deputy chairperson, on the tribunal. We would like to include people of that calibre. We should also like to be in a position to ensure that the legal input was there and the recognition of the courts and that this tribunal was acting instead of the courts. By leaving the appointments open and flexible, it is hoped that we will make the best appointment possible. The House will agree that there are three key appointments to be made and six other appointments. It is important that there be a blend of legal and professional expertise in all those appointments. I hope that common sense and a good decision would be the order of the day and I am confident that they will. I ask the House to trust itself and the Minister for Finance of the day to make the proper appointments.

Deputy Enright has spoken at length regarding the Land Values Tribunal. That is something that I studied and compared. That tribunal has many merits. It does excellent work in its decisions on compulsory acquisition. It is not too easy to compare the valuations tribunal with the Land Values Tribunal because in the latter case the situation is that it is deciding in a sudden death situation in that a person's property is being compulsorily acquired by a State agency or local authority for a certain purpose. The function of the Land Values Tribunal must be to ensure that adequate value and compensation are given, not alone for the property that is being acquired but also taking into account the disturbance and inconvenience created, the removal of the right of use of that property in the future and many other items. It decides on a property in a given situation and then it completely finishes with that aspect once and for all.

The work of the valuation tribunal would deal with a constant ongoing situation whereby valuations are to be determined on which rates will be levied by local authorities. Three heads are better than one. Having three qualified people who are consistently involved in decision making pertaining to the same type of system must result in more consistent decisions than a property arbitrator sitting on his own. Besides, we want the tribunal to develop a code of case law for a wide range of properties throughout the country. It is mandatory on them to produce a written report on their findings in each case. Their decisions will have to stand up. The information would be available. I suggest that that is the better road to go.

Section 2 agreed to.
Progress reported, Committee to sit again.
Barr
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