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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988

Vol. 378 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Carysfort College Proposed Closure.

I am very glad to have this opportunity to raise the issue of the future of Carysfort College of Education in this House. On 4 and 5 March 1986 Fianna Fáil came into this House in a paroxysm of what I can only describe as righteous indignation and condemned in the most ringing tones the decision I had taken to phase out primary teacher training at Carysfort College on the grounds that three colleges operating below capacity was a luxury which, unfortunately, the Irish taxpayer could no longer afford. Interestingly enough, the party went on to vote against discussions with interested parties seeking an alternative role in higher education for Carysfort College having regard to its structure and traditions, the expertise of its staff and the developmental requirements of education generally. That was the wording of the motion against which Fianna Fáil voted on 5 March 1986.

As the House may recall, the present Minister came into the House a month previously and was delighted to announce prematurely to the staff, the Sisters and the educational world, in the most precipitated and opportunistic way the decision which had been made before many of those people had been informed of the decision. On 4 and 5 March 1986 Fianna Fáil went much further than simply voting against what we were embarking on which was discussions with the college authorities. They urged the retention of Carysfort College as an integral part of our higher education system with a specific component role in teacher education. The present Minister for Education — I remind the House that this was all of two years ago — went on to talk about in-service education, third level education, social sciences, communications, liberal arts, child studies, whatever that is, youth community work studies and technological studies for Carysfort College. There was no end to the plans which the present Minister had ready to bring in for Carysfort College while she was Opposition spokesperson.

Deputy David Andrews came into the house and waxed eloquently as only Fianna Fáil can on the intrinsically flawed economic policies of the then Government. Deputy Pardraig Flynn came into the House——

It is all on the file. I am going to have a great time in this debate.

——and described the then Government as having "a closedown syndrome" and even mentioned hospitals specifically. He also said that recession is not the time to skimp on education and teacher training. He demanded satisfactory prospects for the professional staff at Carysfort College and demanded teachers should continue to be trained at Carysfort College. Most importantly, he went on to spell out in great detail the Fianna Fáil alternative as he called it. He went on to say it had been spelt out in clear unambiguous terms that they wanted Carysfort College to continue as a teacher training centre with other items added such as in-service teacher training courses, new curriculum development courses, third level education courses in the humanities, education in psychological training for teachers, computer training and a whole lot of other things.

On that evening in March Fine Gael listened as they had to listen for four years to the total refusal of Fianna Fáil to face realities and their allied tendency to make whatever wild promises that suited the particular occasion but Fine Gael, unlike Fianna Fáil, did not play political games. We went ahead and appointed a working group under the Chairman of the Higher Education Authority, the very respected Mr. Liam Lane, to produce good workable proposals for the future of the college which of course is recognised as a magnificant facility.

That group did bring forward proposals which were presented to the Sisters of Mercy and made public on 2 March 1987. I will mention what some of those proposals were. They included that UCD would move their H.Dip. in Education Faculty to Carysfort College making use of all the teacher training facilities there; that the excellent Carysfort College language teaching facilities should become a language centre integrated with the UCD Arts Degree language teaching programme; that history, geography, arts, commerce and social science courses could be incorporated into Carysfort College and that the Irish Folklore Commission would be transferred there from Earlsfort Terrace. It was suggested that the research work of the Curriculum and Examinations Board, since defunct, should be transferred to Carysfort College. The report also stated that none of the Carysfort College staff should be forced into redundancy.

That report was given to the Sisters of Mercy and it was left for the incoming Minister. Fine Gael made it clear before leaving office in a statement from the then Minister, Deputy Cooney, that the proposals were acceptable to him but because we were going out of Government he could not give undertakings about the future. Since then there has been total inactivity and silence on the part of the present Minister despite all of the questions she has been asked and all the letters which have been written to her. In March 1986 the matter was considered to be a very grave national issue and of immense urgency. The present Minister has for one year refused to answer questions on the progress of the plans and she has left the staff in a state of limbo, not to mention the anxieties of the Sisters of Mercy and the wider population around the college who are so anxious about the future.

In the debate on that Private Members' motion in March 1986 Fianna Fáil called for immediate acion to ensure that this great and valuable institution be retained as an integral part of our higher education system. Two years ago they called for immediate action, they have been in office now for one year and yet we have had nothing but inaction. The reason I raise this issue tonight in the Dáil, the reason I asked for it to be taken on the Adjournment, is because it now transpires that considerable alarm was created among the staff and right across the education world by rumours emanating from a college board meeting just after Christmas that vacant possession of their offices would be required as soon as this academic year ends in June. If the Minister denies that that was ever mentioned I will be very pleased but following the rumour which emanated from that meeting the Irish Federation of University Teachers were alarmed enough to call for an emergency meeting with the Minister which was held on 4 February. Again at that meeting mention was made of the need to vacate the premises in June, that the staff might not have any offices to work in after June.

At that meeting the staff were told that even if they had to physically leave the premises and had no jobs to go to they would still be paid in full. I have in my possession a letter which was sent to the IFUT by the Minister on 17 February confirming this arrangement. One can imagine the effect that that sort of emergency meeting and that sort of information has had across the education world which was promised the earth and the stars by Fianna Fáil as long as two years ago——

Particularly by the present Minister.

——and we have had nothing but silence since.

Wait until you hear my reply, Deputy Carey, I will have the last laugh.

Accompanying the Private Members' motion and the fuss of that time was a degree of personal invective which, unfortunately, had come to be associated with Fianna Fáil when in Opposition.

May I interrupt you, Deputy? The terms under which this Adjournment debate was granted was that notice had just been given by the Sisters. Was it notice or rumours, because permission was given on the basis that notice had been given by the Sisters.

The Ceann Comhairle gave permission at 4 o'clock this afternoon for this time to be raised on the Adjournment. I have explained, and I will continue to explain——

On the basis of what I read here——

Are you trying to stop me making this speech on the Adjournment?

No, I am trying to clarify——

I was about to say why I raised this matter on the Adjournment, if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will permit me to do so.

I am charged with the responsibility of seeing that whoever raises the matter on the Adjournment does so in accordance with the permission granted. I am reminding you that my information is that permission was on the basis that notice had just been given by the Sisters to the staff and the Department.

I have mentioned the college board meeting held after Christmas——

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is not listening to the Deputy.

That is my problem. I am listening to her.

I mentioned the college board meeting held after Christmas a few moments ago. It was a result of this confusion and uncertainty about the intentions of the Government as well as the approaching deadline of the last group of students finishing their courses in June that I raised this issue in the Dáil this morning. It is inexplicable and alarming that the Minister has dragged her heels for so long, that the staff have been treated in this manner, despite the expectations aroused by the behaviour of Fianna Fáil in Opposition, and that even at this late stage we still do not know what plans exist for Carysfort College, except for the rumours emanating from the college board meeting which so alarmed members of IFUT that they had to demand an emergency meeting with the Minister. To put it mildly, I find the Minister's persistent refusal to answer questions about her plans, provocative and extremely suspicious.

I was delighted to hear today as a result of my raising the issue — and only as a result of my raising this issue — that Sister Regina was able to say she felt there were plans, that she had some hopes, although apparently they do not involve the present education staff who will still have to vacate the premises after June. I invite the Minister to tell the House now what her plans are, which presumably she must know after a year in office. I deplore the fact that it has taken this kind of rumour and alarm to try to get the air cleared, to get the Minister into this House and to get some response from her because we have failed for a year to get any kind of response. I hope her response will be full and clear and will give details to the House, which is the proper place as she so vehemently declared in February 1986. I deplore also these rumours and meetings that were held in secrecy over the last month.

I wish the Minister had been more frank with me and the House when we asked questions about this matter. However, raising this matter today has meant that we have succeeded in getting some progress made. We had denials from the Minister earlier today and expressions of hope from Sister Regina but such denials and expressions of hope are not enough to allay the concern and confusion caused by the extraordinary turn-about by the Minister and the Government. I await with great interest clarification from the Minister about the future of the staff, the Sisters of Mercy and the future of the college at Carysfort. I hope they will allay the suspicions which so many other actions of Fianna Fáil have caused the public.

May I read the terms of the motion submitted by Deputy Hussey:

The threatened loss to the taxpayer and to the education system to the country to the magnificent facilities of Carysfort College following notice just given today by the Sisters of Mercy to the staff and to the Department that they require vacant possession of the college by the end of June.

May I put on the record the reply from Sister Regina of Carysfort, dated today:

While the college authorities are very concerned about the future of the Carysfort complex, they have not issued any ultimatum to the Department of Education nor have they issued any ultimatum to their college staff about vacating the premises by any given date.

They still have reason to hope that the Government are considering positive plans for the use of the amenities for the public education and cultural role that will be of benefit to the nation and to many of its young people.

What has happened for the last year?

Deputy Hussey had her day. Ever since she put her hand to the issue of Carysfort, she has blundered magnificently, and today has been her most massive blunder.

(Interruptions.)

Please allow the Minister to reply. Deputy Carey should realise that this is not the place for an educational heavy gang.

When Carysfort was last discussed in this House the Minister was in Opposition and made a disgrace of herself. She made these people many promises. I came here tonight to hear a reasonable reply from the Minister for Education who should behave with more decorum. She has taunted me since I came into this House and I will heckle her if she is wrong because she has misled the parents of student teachers. She is a disgrace as a Minister.

The record will assess the contribution made by Deputy Carey.

May I continue?

Yes, without interruption.

I want to put on record the untruths told today by Deputy Hussey. I hesitate to use the word "lie" because I understand it is unparliamentary.

I want the Minister to withdraw that word.

From the time Deputy Hussey put her finger on the issue of Carysfort she has blundered magnificently and today is her major blunder.

On a point of order. I understood from your good self, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that the use of the word "untruth" was not allowed in this House and I would ask the Minister to withdraw it.

The word "lie" is not accepted.

But the word "untruth" is?

"Untruth" has been accepted.

New rules in the House.

I hesitated to use the word "lie" because I knew it was unparliamentary. Therefore I used the word "untruth".

The Minister is prevaricating.

I want to repeat that once again Deputy Hussey has made a massive blunder. I should state at the outset that I have not received from the Sisters of Mercy notice, as so dramatically described by Deputy Hussey, to the effect that they require vacant possession of the college by the end of June 1988. When I intervened about Carysfort, I knew my facts, Deputy Hussey does not. I have just had a statement to the contrary today from the college authorities which I have just read into the report.

As Deputies will know, the previous Government decided as part of their budget strategy that a major college of education should close. It was Deputy Hussey, then Minister for Education, who decided that the college which would close would be Carysfort and this decision was conveyed to the college authorities on 4 February 1986. Following consultation with the then Taoiseach who intervened, as Taoisigh should on important matters, and on the coming into office of Deputy Cooney it was decided that existing students would be allowed complete their studies at Carysfort but that no new students would be admitted. There are approximately 166 students now in their final year in the college who are due to finish their course in the summer. Recognition will then be withdrawn from the college as a pre-service training institution for primary teachers.

You opposed that.

While the college buildings are the property of the Sisters of Mercy, it would of course be my earnest wish, and I am confident that my aspiration would be shared by the Sisters, that the facilities of the college should continue to be available for the purposes of education. The position is not one to be resolved overnight; it will call for the exercise of patience, foresight and commitment and I would ask the House, in view of the sensitivity——

What sensitivity?

——of the situation at this point, which the Deputy is determined to wreck by her blundering, not to press me further on the matter at this time.

(Interruptions.)

During the debate following the announcement of the decision to withdraw grants from the college, the previous Government decided to set up a working party to see if proposals could be formulated for the future use of the college as an educational establishment other than for the initial training of primary teachers.

This working party submitted its report on 26 February 1987. While my predecessor in Government, Deputy Cooney, indicated his acceptance of the report to the Sisters, there was of course no question of any previous Government commitment to the recommendations in the report. I want to nail the untruth that decisions were——

The word "lie" is written into the script.

I would not like to say "lie" because it is unparliamentary. I want to nail the untruth that decisions were taken by the previous Government on the recommendations of the working party in regard to the future of Carysfort. There is no record of any consideration whatsoever being given by them to the report. It was, therefore, left to me, as incoming Minister, to take up the matter of the report.

(Interruptions.)

The principal thrust of the proposals in respect of the working party was towards the continued use of the Carysfort premises and facilities for the operation of appropriate courses under the aegis of University College, Dublin, and the secondment of Carysfort staff to serve in UCD, in other colleges of education, in other third-level colleges, in schools and in educational agencies. Severance terms were envisaged for those who could not be seconded.

I have in the meantime had discussions with the Sisters of Mercy in relation to the matter generally.

(Interruptions.)

Will the Deputy stop bleating? As my discussisons with the Order and interested parties are at present ongoing——

For a whole year?

——it is difficult for me to say more at this stage. The fact that the net annual cost of running the college is approximately £2.1 million must however be borne in mind.

Might I refute actual untruths told by Deputy Hussey tonight in the House. The Deputy said that I had an urgent emergency meeting with IFUT. I had four meetings with IFUT since last September and each was arranged in advance. The second last meeting was on 22 December and at that the meeting on 4 February was arranged. I met them on 4 February and they appreciate the very excellent arrangements we have reached with them and they have issued a statement to that effect.

(Interruptions.)

I could have issued a statement to the effect that they had harmonious relations in their dealings with me and they are very pleased-

(Interruptions.)

Will Deputy Hussey please behave herself and listen. This is most disorderly.

She is only bleating.

The Minister has been most provocative.

(Interruptions.)

Sister Regina has issued a statement tonight, so Mrs. Hussey has blundered magnificently once again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.20 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Friday, 26 February 1988.

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