Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1988

Vol. 378 No. 4

Abattoirs Bill, 1987 [Seanad]: Financial Resolution.

Minister for Labour (Mr. B. Ahern)

I understand that this matter is to be taken without discussion and if that is so I will move this motion.

I move:

That, for the purpose of any Act of the present session to amend and extend the law relating to abattoirs and knackeries, to make provision for veterinary and hygiene controls in such abattoirs and knackeries and to make provision for other connected matters, it is expedient to make provision for the charging by the Minister for Agriculture and Food of fees in relation to:—

(a) the grant or renewal of an abattoir licence, or

(b) the grant of renewal of a permit relating to an abattoir, or

(c) the grant or renewal of a knackery licence, or

(d) the grant or renewal of a permit relating to a knackery,

under any Act of the present session to provide as aforesaid."

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Procedurally, this must be moved by a Minister and we will not delay the Minister unduly on these farm matters. While I am not opposing——

Mr. B. Ahern

Perhaps I should not have said anything. I was asked to move it so I just formally moved it.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

That is fine. We understand the situation. It has to be moved by a Cabinet Minister. We will not expect the Minister for Labour to plough his way through these items.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the motion agreed?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

No. I want to make two points on the motion. I am not opposing the motion but I have points I want to make on the motion. This motion provides a framework whereby charge can be made by the Minister for Agriculture and Food in relation to the grant or renewal of an abattoir licence or of a permit in relation to the grant or renewal of a licence or a permit for a knackery. The Minister came before the House with this proposal to enable these charges to be made. It raises the issue that abattoirs dealing with the domestic market are now going to pay the same level of charges as export plants. Arising from that the question has to be addressed as to whether the abattoirs will be able to avail of IDA and FEOGA grants in the same way as the export plants. Many of these abattoirs will have to spend a lot of money to comply with the provisions of the Bill. If the approach is that we have a level of paying pitched now, with the export plants collecting the same fees, it considerably strengthens the case for having the same entitlement on the part of abattoirs dealing with the domestic market, so that they can avail of the IDA and FEOGA grants to bring their premises up to standard. I want the Minister to deal with that point on this motion because there are technical difficulties in dealing with the point on the Bill when amendments we put down to it have been ruled out of order.

The retail butchering trade employs about 6,000 people. It is clear from the 1982 survey that, while considerable improvements have been made in the intervening years, major expenditure would be necessary by many abattoir owners to enable them to come up to the standards provided for in the Bill and the regulations to be made thereunder. Many of them are concerned about their ability to meet those standards and the cost that will be involved. They have made a reasonable case that, while they are anxious to comply with any reasonable standards laid down, they want to have access to the grants structures whether through the IDA or FEOGA to support them in so doing. They point out that, while the export plants are grant-aided principally because of their export capacity, there is a significant leakage from those very export plants on to the domestic market, effectively providing competition for themselves. That adds further to the case they have made from the point of view of access to grants. The Minister of State, Deputy Joe Walsh, said in reply to Second Stage of the Bill on 10 December that it was very much a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the IDA, but he would make representations to the Minister for Industry and Commerce on that very point. I am interested to know the response to those representations which the Minister of State wanted to make at that time.

The second point is the other regulations with which abattoir owners will have to comply when the Bill comes into effect. Again, concern was expressed to me that these regulations might be too onerous and place too heavy a burden on the abattoir owners. They were anxious to see those regulations or a draft of them at the time we were discussing the Bill. The Minister pointed out very reasonably on Second Stage that the Bill was an enabling measure and all details of the regulations could not sensibly be included in the Bill. The point I made on Second Stage was that I wanted a draft of the regulations to be available at that time so that the concerns expressed about the fact that they might be too onerous could be incorporated in the discussion on the Bill. Again, the Minister of State indicated in his closing address on Second Stage that drafts of the proposed regulations would be available shortly and would be furnished to the trade. I am anxious, now we are clearing the point with regard to the charging provisions, that the concern expressed in relation to the other regulations would also be clarified at this stage, that we would be aware of the broad outline of what was being provided for in those regulations and that there would be an opportunity for the retail trade to assess the import of the terms of those draft regulations.

Mr. Durkan

Deputy O'Keeffe referred to the possible availability of funding to the various abattoirs covered by this motion. Under the present system abattoirs catering for the home market do not have access to the same sources of funding as those catering for the export trade. That has been a bone of contention for a long time and in turn has contributed to down-grading those catering for the home market. The lack of FEOGA or IDA grant aid for the provision of extra facilities in those abattoirs now covered by the motion is completely contrary to what the motion and the Bill are trying to do. I know there are difficulties there, but I ask the Minister of State to take on board the very valid case made by the trade in relation to this matter and perhaps consult with his colleague in Industry and Commerce to ascertain to what extent some provision can be made for these people in future.

Mr. McCoy

I would like to suggest that some part of the inspection and licence fee be used by way of financing grants for the improvement of slaughterhouses which are the subject matter of this measure. I have looked at the regulations on abattoir operation and those regarding siting, lay-out, accommodation and construction. Two things strike me and I would like to bring them to the attention of the Minister. One is the cost of the provisions and the other is that many small abattoirs located in urban areas will find it impossible to comply with the physical conditions laid down.

I would not like to think some of these provisions have been framed to put family butchers out of business, but that is what will happen. The licensing and regulations framed to make abattoirs operate properly do not always mean that when all these things are in place we get a better product. A family butcher may not have the facilities, physical or whatever as laid down in these regulations. However, I have heard of very few cases of butchers poisoning anybody or causing outbreaks of food poisoning. Generally contravention of regulations in relation to the meat industry within the Food Acts have occurred where regulations such as we are discussing here were being adhered to but a much bigger operation was in hand or an element of further processing existed on the premises.

For those reasons I ask the Minister to consider the aspects of this measure which cut across the very life and business of family butchers who are in every country town and village in Ireland, who had a tradition of hygiene themselves before ever regulations became the subject of law, and who have a long history of operating properly in the interests of the consumer.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food (Mr. J. Walsh)

In response to Deputies O'Keeffe, Durkan and McCoy, the provision of grant aid to abattoirs is a separate issue which cannot be addressed in this measure. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, through the IDA, holds responsibility in this area. Furthermore, neither the Bill nor the House can ordain the provision of aid from FEOGA funds, as that is a matter for decision by the EC Commission. However, a pre-condition for the granting of such aid is that national funding must also be available.

This brings us back again to the IDA. As I have said, I do not want to pass the buck to anybody else but the statutory position is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is responsible for the operations of the IDA. I am sure Deputies will appreciate how sensitive I am about keeping out of other Ministers' duties and responsibilities, so I have no intention of getting involved in this area. Grant-aid to the export plants was based on the need for export trade development and to secure markets abroad for beef, lamb, pork and bacon products. In recent years the IDA policy in the meat export sector has shifted away from providing aid for projects whose sole aim is to increase slaughtering capacity, with the emphasis now being placed on added value, down stream processing projects. However, it has been claimed that export plants are increasing their share of the home market and as Deputy O'Keeffe said, a substantial amount of that meat is leaking into the domestic system and this is being facilitated through the provision of grant-aid.

Naturally, I would be concerned about the possible unfair competitive advantage of this. Therefore, as I said on Second Stage, I recently wrote to my colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce and suggested that the IDA should review their policy in this area to ensure that the domestic meat trade is not placed at any competitive disadvantage. I feel strongly that there should be, as the Taoiseach puts it, a level playing pitch for everybody involved. While I received an acknowledgment, in the time honoured position of those acknowledgments, the matter is being looked into and examined and I am awaiting a reply to the matter.

In relation to the regulations being made under the Bill, the position is that drafts of the regulations have been circulated to the trade. They have already been discussed with the Irish Domestic Meat Traders Association and they will be discussed with the Irish Master Butchers Federation tomorrow.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I am satisfied on the point in relation to the regulations and that full and detailed discussions are under way. It is appropriate that the drafts should be discussed before they are concluded. However, I have to express disappointment at the reply to the first question because it seems to close the door on the family butcher to any access to grant-aid. That is a wrong approach on the part of the Government and I should like to record my major disappointment at the line now being taken by the Minister in that regard. I appreciate that he has made representations but it is clear that they have not brought about the desired result.

Question put and agreed to.