asked the Minister for Justice his views on whether it is necessary to review and amend the law in relation to charities in Ireland; and if he will indicate his proposals in this regard.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Charities Law.
3.
My responsibility in relation to charities is confined to three areas: (a) the Charities Acts, 1961 and 1973, which provide for the jurisdiction and powers of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests in relation to charitable trusts; (b) the Street and House to House Collections Act, 1962, which provides for the issue of Garda permits to take up collections in specified areas and, (c) the Gaming and Lotteries Acts, 1956, sections 27 and 28 of which provide for the issue of Garda permits and court licences, respectively, to hold lotteries. Only lotteries held under court licence (section 28) are required to be for a charitable or philanthropic purpose.
As I have indicated to the House on a number of occasions, I could not undertake, in response to a parliamentary question, to indicate what my views were in relation to the amendment of the law in particular areas. Proposals in this regard are announced in the ordinary way following Government approval only. However, I can say that I have no proposals at present in relation to the areas of law covering charities for which I have responsibility.
To put the Minister's mind at rest I should point out that I am directing my question to him on the basis that originally when I raised this matter with the Taoiseach in June last he refused to deal with it and transferred it to the competent hands of the Minister. Would the Minister accept that the charity business, if one might describe it as such, is very large indeed — quoted to be of the order of £100 million? Would the Minister accept that because of problems obtaining in that area, with no statutory definition of what constitutes a charity or any system of registration such as obtains in other countries, there is cause for concern, in particular about the activities of professional fund raisers and that, in those circumstances, action is necessary? Furthermore, will he accept that this is particularly worrying for the genuine people involved in the charity area who rely on public trust and confidence and who have raised these various concerns and that action is necessary to respond to those concerns?
The Deputy will appreciate that I outlined in my reply my responsibilities in this area. The Deputy is also aware of the fact that there are a number of other Government Departments with a significant involvement in the area of charities. For example, some healthrelated charities are grant-aided by the Department of Health. The Department of Finance are responsible for taxes and legislation in respect of charities. The Department of Foreign Affairs would have to be consulted in relation to charities providing aid to the Third World. The Department of Social Welfare are responsible for inter-action with St. Vincent de Paul-type groups. I mention that for the information of the Deputy and in order to allow him appreciate my responsibility in this area. Of course I am aware of the position obtaining. I am aware that there was a television programme presented recently that caused certain disquiet in this area. I am also aware of proposals that were submitted by GORTA in April 1987 with regard to specific changes they have asked be considered. I am aware also of the Deputy's efforts, when in Government, to give this matter attention. I am aware, for example, of his proposals for an inter-departmental committee — I think it was back in 1986 — which he tried to get under way. I readily understand the reasons such committee did not get off the ground. Because I am concerned I am examining a number of areas at present. When I am in a position to bring proposals to Government I will do so and shall make an announcement in due course.
Since the Minister accepts and agrees with my submission to the last Government of October 1986 — that an inter-departmental committee is necessary because so many different Government Departments are involved — also because of the danger of a major scandal developing in this area — would he undertake to raise with his Government the suggestion I had made in October 1986, and which was accepted by the then Taoiseach, that an inter-departmental committee be set up to examine the various problems involved, for instance, whether we should have a proper system of registration, accountability and so on? Would the Minister undertake to shoulder that cudgel at this stage and ensure that action follows on the part of the present Government, accepting that it is not a matter solely lying within the domain of the Department of Justice but one in which that Department do have some responsibility?
I might reiterate that I am aware of what Deputy O'Keeffe was endeavouring to do in this area. I am not aware of any agreement whatsoever on the part of the Taoiseach or anybody else in any other Department to his proposals——
On 28 October 1986.
I am not aware——
I am telling the Minister now. I have the file here.
Then, perhaps the Deputy should not have asked the question or should have asked the question of somebody else.
We are not in Government now.
But I am aware of what the Deputy was endeavouring to do. Of course the Deputy will also appreciate that another colleague of his, I think, former Deputy Nora Owen, was endeavouring to approach this problem in a different manner. She was endeavouring to have an all-party Oireachtas committee examine the matter but that committee did not get off the ground either in late 1986. I am giving the matter attention. When I have had a chance to study the position, as it must and should be studied properly, I will be making recommendations to Government.
Might I urge the Minister to carry out a review of the present legislation in this respect which is inadequate?
Is the Minister satisfied that the legislation, such as it is, is being enforced?
If the Deputy has any reason to believe that there is room for improvement in enforcement of the legislation, I will be glad to hear from her.
Is the Minister satisfied that it is being enforced?
Deputy Seán Barrett has been called.
Would the Minister assure the House that neither he nor his Government will take any action which would affect the flow of funds to Rehab and the Central Remedial Clinic as a result of the lottery they are now running? Would the Minister deny the various rumours circulating — that steps will be taken that could have serious consequences for Rehab and the CRC?
I ceased denying Deputy Barrett's rumours some 12 months ago and I have resisted the temptation ever since. Indeed the question he has asked is really for another Minister. The Deputy knows that as well as I do.