asked the Minister for Justice the plans, if any, he has to encourage the greater use by courts of non-custodial sentences in appropriate cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Non-custodial Sentences.
5.
The type of sentence to be imposed on offenders is entirely a matter for the courts.
A wide range of sanctions is available to the courts to provide alternatives to custodial sentences e.g. fines, probation, suspended sentences and community service orders.
The scheme of community service, provided for in the Criminal Justice (Community Service) Act, 1983, has been widely used by the Courts since its introduction in December 1984. As I indicated in my reply to Parliamentary Question No. 25 on 18 February (Dáil Debates, Vol. 378, No. 2) the operation of the scheme is being monitored by my Department but it is too soon yet to decide whether the scope of the legislation ought to be extended in order to provide for greater use of community service orders.
I put it to the Minister that in view of the premier finding of the Whitaker report in 1985 and the fact that it would cost as much to employ a probation officer or a community welfare officer, as it would to keep one prisoner in prison for a year, would the Minister agree that there are some residual duties on the Department to at least expand the numbers employed in both of these schemes, and that one of the factors hampering the development of the schemes with the courts is the non-availability of staff and opportunities to develop the schemes?
It is with pleasure that I tell the Deputy that he should know of my personal commitment to the scheme, seeing that it was I who introduced it.
I am trying to lay the platform for the Minister.
Thank you. The Deputy is like his friend, Deputy Taylor. I thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to put little things on the record, now and again. A sign of my continuing commitment to the scheme is the increase in public moneys being made available in the current year's Estimate over last year's Estimate. That in itself is proof positive of my intention to see to it that the scheme is expanded. It is a very good scheme and it is one which we should all support. I have every intention of so doing to the very best of my ability bearing in mind the financial constraints which exist at present.
The Whitaker report in 1985 highlighted the area of the incarceration of women as an area where the Government could give a lead by introducing a non-custodial regime for all but the very few hardened female prisoners. Has the Minister given any consideration to this matter with a view to introducing a comprehensive non-custodial regime?
As the House is aware, the Whitaker report was welcomed on all sides of the House. It is a report which is being continually looked at and studied and, where appropriate, the recommendations contained in it are being implemented. I accept what Deputy McCartan has said on the incarceration of women and this is a matter we are looking at with a view to seeing whether anything positive could be done. I do not think anyone is suggesting — Deputy McCartan is not I am sure — that it is possible for us to close down womens' prisons altogether, but we would welcome getting more women involved under the community service order scheme and would take steps to encourage this.
On a final matter——
May I ask the Minister if it was his intention to reply to another question with Question No. 5?
It was not my intention.
May I ask one final brief supplementary?
A final question.
In relation to a non-custodial penalty——
Question No. 18 in the name of Deputy Sean Barrett has not been coupled with Question No. 5. It asks if I would report on the progress to date on the use of community service orders as an alternative to custody. So as to be fair to Deputy Barrett perhaps I should read the answer to that question.
18.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will report on the progress to date on the use of community service orders as an alternative to custody.
The Criminal Justice (Community Service) Act, 1983 was brought into effect by Ministerial Order on 5 December 1984.
During the period January 1985 to 31 March 1988 the courts referred 3,996 convicted persons to the Probation and Welfare Service for reports on their suitability under the community service order scheme and on the availability of work for them.
Two thousand, nine hundred and eighty-one community service orders were subsequently made — 698 orders in 1985, 966 orders in 1986, 918 orders in 1987, and 399 orders in 1988. The average length of the orders made was 100 hours.
On 31 December 1987, 1,788 of the 2,582 orders made up to that date were completed in a satisfactory manner and 620 were still in progress. The conditions attached to 174 orders had not been fulfilled and the offenders concerned had been referred back to the court. In the majority of those cases the offenders were sentenced to the original terms of imprisonment determined by the court at the time of making the community service orders.
Community service order work is carried out under the general supervision of the Probation and Welfare Service of my Department with the assistance of part time supervisors. One hundred and eighty-two thousand pounds was expended last year in the operation of community service orders. This figure has been increased to £215,000 in the current year's Estimates.
A wide range of activities has been undertaken for the benefit of various groups or individuals in the community, including construction work for the physically handicapped, painting and decorating work in hostels, day centres for the elderly, the handicapped and the homeless, preparing meals in day centres, landscaping grounds, maintaining and cleaning church grounds and graveyards, assisting tidy towns committees and assisting swimming classes for the handicapped. My apologies to Deputy Barrett for not coupling his question with Question No. 5. It should be understood however that Deputy McCartan considerably widened the scope of Question No. 5.
Questions Nos. 5 and 18 are being taken together.
That ties in ——
A brief question, Deputy, as I want to call on Deputy Barrett.
That ties in with precisely the point I was going to make. Would the Minister consider encouraging, if not promoting, the holding of seninars within both the probationary profession and the Judiciary on the operation, availability and use of these schemes? There is one aspect which I would like to draw the Minister's attention to ——
I did ask for brevity.
—— and that is that there is a tendency for the courts to impose community service orders on first time offenders as opposed to imposing the alternative of imprisonment. This scheme was devised as an alternative to imprisonment. Unfortunately, quite often it is used as a first offence type scheme.
That is a matter worthy of consideration. I will have it considered and I will let the Deputy know what my views are in due course.
I thank the Minister for his reply. Would the Minister agree that there is tremendous scope under this scheme if it is applied in a sensible manner? Would the Minister also agree that since the days when somebody dreamed up the idea of prison as a method of punishment certain new factors have arisen which make prison totally unsuitable for some offenders? Here I am thinking of AIDS victims, drug abusers and so on. Of course, there are those who have to be put into prison but would the Minister agree that we would be doing something worthwhile in getting people back on the right road by way of their doing some constructive work through community service orders rather than by just putting them into prison at a cost of between £500 and £600 per week? All the evidence is that they are coming out of prison far better criminals than when they went in. Would the Minister agree that there is an urgent need to promote a greater use of community service orders as a punishment for certain crimes where it is quite obvious——
May I appeal for brevity.
——that the correct way of punishing them is for them to contribute something to society rather than just be locked up for three or four months?
I would like to assure the Deputy there is little or nothing in what he said that I could disagree with and having said that I am prepared to expand that scheme as best I can. Despite the fact that people are complaining about cuts and the lack of finance available in other areas, I am sure the Deputy, if he had thought of it, would have congratulated me on getting an increase in the amount for spending under this particular heading, bearing in mind its importance. If I can find additional funds by way of savings in any other area where I think there is fat and where I think the service would not deteriorate as a result of taking away those savings, I will gladly use them in this area.
Take it from the prison officers.
Deputy Taylor would then start complaining.