asked the Minister for Finance if he will exempt the Land Registry from the current Government limitations on staffing if it could be demonstrated that additional staff would increase the throughput of business in the Land Registry thereby increasing the level of fees earned by the registry and paying for any extra costs involved in the employment of the additional staff.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Land Registry Staff.
4.
The Government are committed to reducing overall numbers in the Civil Service and to effecting improvements in the efficiency of services provided by Government Departments and offices. While I would not propose to comment on the operation of the Land Registry, which is the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, I would be reluctant to accept the view which is implicit in the Deputy's question that throughput of business in the Land Registry or any other area of the Civil Service can be increased only by the provision of additional staff, or that the fact that a particular area of the public service is financed in whole or in part by fee income would justify the exemption of that area from the requirement of utilising its existing staff in the most efficient manner. The Civil Service Commission are at present establishing panels of candidates for redeployment to posts in the Civil Service. When these panels are available, I would be prepared to consider redeployment of suitable staff to posts in the Land Registry.
Have the Department at any stage studied whether additional staff in the Land Registry would speed up business to the extent that the revenue received from fees would exceed the cost of the extra salaries? If so, what were the results of that study?
I am not aware of any such study but, as I said, this is a matter for the Minister for Justice.
Would the Minister accept that it is considered by many informed in this area that additional staff in the Land Registry would pay for themselves through increased activity? If the Minister does not accept that, would he agree to have the matter studied immediately? Would he further agree that delays in the Land Registry impose a cost on business thereby inhibiting the Government's Programme for National Recovery?
As regards additional staff paying for themselves because of alleged arrears in certain quarters — whether in the Revenue Commissioners, the Land Registry or anywhere else in the public service — I do not think that can be applied for increasing staff numbers. We have to look at the efficiency and effectiveness of every service being supplied. It does not necessarily mean that when charges are applied for a particular service, the entire charge, or more, has to be used to pay wages, but that is what is implicit in the Deputy's question.
No.
That does not necessarily operate or, if it does, it should not.
Would the Minister agree to examine the possibility of bringing back retired officers of the Land Registry on a temporary basis — perhaps for a year or two, if the Minister does not wish to commit himself to permanent additions to the overall numbers in the registry — with a view to clearing off any arrears? Would he look at that proposal which would be extremely cost effective as a method of clearing these arrears, earning fees for the Exchequer and simultaneously reducing costs in business? If the Minister uses some imagination would he agree that this is a situation where everybody wins and there are no losers?
What do we do when the arrears are cleared?
Those people can be laid off.
I have replied to the first part of the Deputy's question when I said the Civil Service Commission are holding competitions at the moment and when the panels are available I will look at the possibility of redeploying staff to the Land Registry. I have had 20 years or more dealing with the Land Registry and in many respects delays are caused because of queries because the first submissions are not in order. The normal time for dealing with a Land Registry application is about 3.3 months; if there is a query, it increases to 18 months. Big arrears can build up because the original application did not have all the information clearly set out. As I said in the second part of my reply to the original question, the Civil Service Commission are at present establishing panels of candidates and when the panels are available, I will look at the question of redeployment of suitable staff to the Land Registry.
I do not want to get into an argument with the Minister about the causes of the arrears in the Land Registry, but I would dispute his statistics which, by virtue of being an average is misleading. In any event, a delay of 3.3 months for a first query is ridiculously long. Could the Minister tell the House whether the present level of staffing and fees produce a surplus in the Land Registry's operations?
I do not have the information. It is a matter for the Minister for Justice.
Question No. 5. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that I have been able to deal with only four questions in half an hour. If that is the way Deputies want to proceed, fair enough; but I must have regard to the rights of other Members who have other questions on the Order Paper. I would ask for brevity and a little more co-operation in making some worthwhile progress on Questions today.
(Limerick East): We have taken one priority question. Is the Minister aware that the statutory regulations which allow the Department of Justice to impose fees for Land Registry work do not allow the creation of a surplus and that, if the fees are pitched at such a level that a surplus is accruing, the Minister and the Government are in breach of their own regulations?
I do not accept that.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies to this question, I seek your permission to raise the subject matter of the question on the Adjournment.
I will communicate with the Deputy.