Deputy Sheehan gave me notice of his intention to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of the long delays which exist in the Land Registry Office with regard to applications for land dealing certificates.
Adjournment Debate. - Delays in Land Registry Office.
With your permission, I would like to share my time with my colleagues, Deputies Carey and Enright.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I would like to draw the attention of the Minister for Justice and Communications to the very serious delays which exist in the Land Registry in issuing Land Registry maps and the processing of applications for registration of title. All the legal firms in my constituency of Cork South-West have made numerous applications which have been delayed for up to six, nine and 12 months. It is not unknown for there to be delays of up to one and a half years to two years. This is a shocking state of affairs and should not be allowed to continue. I am not blaming the new Minister for Justice and Communications for this.
Has Deputy O'Keeffe got the same problem?
I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Deputy Burke on his appointment as Minister in both Departments. I hope he will meet my demands tonight.
I can assure the Minister that this is a very serious problem and merits his immediate attention. Some of the cases involve applications from young farmers for registration of land titles. Their farm installation grant payments are held up for months, sometimes years, pending the issuing of the necessary documents by the Land Registry. This should not be allowed. Proof that applications on their behalf have been lodged with the Land Registry should be sufficient evidence for the Department of Agriculture and Food to proceed with the payment of farm installation grants in the same way that the Department of Social Welfare accept similar evidence in applications for old age pensions.
Furthermore, I would like to point out to the Minister that serious delays occur in respect of applications for Land Registry maps, sometimes up to six months. This is unreasonable and a drastic remedy is called for. If the Minister is serious about tackling this problem he should provide sufficient staff in the Land Registry. If his Department have not got the financial resources to do so, he should seriously consider privatising the Land Registry as it would be a self-financing viable private concern, or maybe bringing it under the control of a semi-State body would be the answer.
Another reason for the serious delays is the vast upsurge in the conveyance of title applications which have increased dramatically during the past 12 months. During the first six months of this year the number of applications increased by 16 per cent. I would suggest that the only solution is to lift the embargo on employment or to give the Land Registry semi-State status. We are all aware that there is a major demand for the division of commonages——
Did the Deputy write his speech last night?
There is no need to write the speech because I have spoken in this House on several occasions, and Deputy Ahern did not have to listen.
For over two hours.
I can tell Deputy Ahern that he has similar problems in his constituency and perhaps it would be better if he put his hand to solving them.
Let us get down to the subject matter.
There is a major demand for the division of commonages. The Land Registry have been inundated with applications from farmers for the division of land commonages. The Minister should realise that any delays in the division of those commonages could have a serious effect on the health of our cattle. The mingling of cattle in commonages is not a very good way to combat disease in animals. I call on the Minister to do everything possible to alleviate this problem. My efforts have been frustrated on several occasions. I have in front of me letters from solicitors from all over the Cork South-West constituency——
Did Deputy Jim O'Keeffe write to the Deputy?
The Minister has been here in office for 48 hours and he has done nothing about this problem.
I can guarantee the Minister that it is more than a joke. I hope he is not treating this matter as a joke and that he will give this matter serious consideration. He can rest assured that Deputy O'Keeffe is more than able to look after his own problems.
In his little portion of the constituency.
I have no doubt that the Minister will give serious consideration to employing sufficient staff in the Land Registry to ensure applications are dealt with within a reasonable time. If he does not, he will be ignoring the fact that a problem exists.
Resign.
No, I would not say that. On this note, I will conclude and let my colleague, Deputy Carey, make a contribution in support of my request.
First, I should like to join with my colleague, Deputy Sheehan, in congratulating the new Minister on his appointment. I know that despite the joviality for which Deputy Sheehan is known the Minister would not trivialise this problem. He must know from his own constituency work and from the Department of Industry and Commerce that there are serious delays connected with the Land Registry. This has led on some occasions to loss of industry. I have also seen the converse, where industrialists came into this country because they were able to establish their rights to land, get the title deeds into order and have everything straightened out within six months. Unfortunately, the land under discussion belonged to Westhrop's, who had the particular property on their site for the last 400 or 500 years.
There are great difficulties in the Land Registry because while revenue of £8 million comes into the Department every year, there has been a rundown in staff from 510 to 390 in recent years. Added to this is the problem that for the past six months, even since last November, there has not been a registrar of titles. This has caused serious difficulties, not alone in the Land Registry but for solicitors, for the building industry, for new home owners, for industry trying to set up. There is an urgent necessity for the Minister to tackle this problem.
Deputy Sheehan said quite properly that this area is self-financing. There is no reason the Minister cannot be pragmatic and set up a semi-State industry here. He knows that the registration of land must go through the Department of Justice and then on to Finance, with all the ensuing difficulties of talking through third parties. The abolition of the Land Commission has added to the difficulties. There has also been a rundown in the number of surveyors employed by the Department of Agriculture and Food to process applications for vesting orders.
There is the further dilemma that in the Land Registry morale has sunk to an all-time low. Because the Minister is a new Minister and is anxious to succeed, to establish himself in another Department, he must grasp this opportunity to lift the morale of the Land Registry staff and accede to Deputy Sheehan's request. This would help farmers with installation grants, builders in connection with the transfer of property, solicitors in processing documents, make life easier for people and create employment. This is a serious subject and I know the Minister will treat it as such. I urge on him to get together with the Land Registry and the Law Society to work out a system that will succeed, because the frustration out there is terrible.
I should like to join with the previous speakers in wishing the Minister every success in the Departments of Justice and Communications.
I support both previous speakers. I have had communications with the Land Registry for over 20 years and in all that time I have found the staff most courteous and helpful. At present, however, because of understaffing and the difficult conditions under which they are working, there is great dissatisfaction among the staff. Up to now one could go and talk to the staff in the Land Registry but that is no longer allowed. They are not prepared to talk because there is such a backlog with regard to titles.
There are two areas involved. The first is with regard to applications for first registration and the second with regard to division of titles. Deputy Carey outlined the situation with regard to building, the division of sites and the building boom in different areas. Unless titles can be sorted out efficiently, there will be major problems. There are already difficulties but the situation will get worse. If the long delays continue there will be a breakdown in the conveyancing of titles and that would be very serious. I am saying that in earnestness, I am not scaremongering. There could be a breakdown in the transfer of titles and of properties and that would lead to major litigation against the Land Registry. This work is self-financing and the problem of understaffing must be tackled to avoid the difficulties that will otherwise ensue.
Deputy Sheehan and others and the Law Society have mentioned privatisation of the Land Registry. That is a kind of ambulance solution to an urgent problem. I would express caution. People's titles to land is a very private, personal matter. A person's title to his house or farm is a matter of major importance, the largest investment for most people and they like a State guarantee attached to such a title, the seal of the State. Rather than privatisation being brought in in two years' time, now is the time to act. The Minister's Department is a huge one with many problems but with immediate action — provision of staff and improvements in working conditions — the difficulties would be overcome. The staff are working under atrocious conditions. I shall be honest with the Minister — I would not work under such conditions; I would resort to picketing. I ask the Minister to visit the Land Registry and see at first hand the conditions. The staff are very good to put up with them.
The ball is in the Minister's court and I ask him to act urgently. This is a most serious matter which affects everybody throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. Firms of builders are trying to organise titles and are being held up; if a farmer wants to get subdivision of a farm in favour of his son there is delay in getting the title to the new land. The people concerned are on bridging loans and have a limited period of time allowed to them. Then penalty clauses are invoked because of failure to lodge the title in the correct time. This happens despite the fact that there are solicitors' letters of undertaking. A family start off with perhaps £1,500 extra of a bridging loan. They blame the solicitors and everybody else but much of the problem arises in the Land Registry. It can be sorted out.
The fault does not lie entirely with the Land Registry. Perhaps incorrect titles are prepared by architects and solicitors are often to blame for failure to lodge titles, reply to queries and requisitions. Many people are involved. The Minister has the opportunity to resolve a problem which has been ongoing for a number of years and I wish him well and success in tackling it. If he is successful, he will be very popular.
A Cheann Comhairle, first let me thank the Deputies who have contributed to this debate for their expressions of good wishes on my recent appointment. I share their concern. I am fully conscious of the delays in the Land Registry and realise that the services being provided there are essential to the public interest.
As Deputies will be aware, there has been a recent upsurge in conveyancing which, in turn, has resulted in a significant increase in lodgments of dealings and other transactions in the registry over the past 12 months. The Deputies who raised the matter tonight were not present in the House yesterday, but I make no point of that. In the Estimate speech which I made yesterday in proposing the Estimate for the Department of Justice, I made specific reference to the problems in the Land Registry and the commitment which I have already undertaken to have a full review of the operations of the registry with a view to improving the services being provided to the public, including the issue of land certificates, a matter that was mentioned here.
As an interim measure a number of clerical staff are being assigned immediately to the Land Registry to try to improve the situation. My Department are having discussions with the Department of Finance concerning the urgent provision of further additional staff for the Land Registry. A computerisation programme is in operation there and it is intended that further progress will be made in this area in future.
While it is too early to anticipate the full outcome of the review — the Deputies will appreciate that I have been in office for less than a week — the House can rest assured that I will spare no effort to secure an improvement in the services provided to the public by the Land Registry. It is a vital cog in our commercial life affecting the agricultural, industrial, building and other sectors of society. It is essential to clear this four to six months' backlog. Everything possible will be done to achieve this. I look forward to coming to the House soon to report progress.
Will the Minister appoint a Registrar of Titles?
The Dáil adjourned at 10.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 July, 1989.