Gerry O'Sullivan
Ceist:11 Mr. G. O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Education if she has any proposals to reduce the cost of repeating the Leaving Certificate examination this year; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Repeat Examination Fees.
John Bruton
Ceist:151 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for Education if the fee charged for repeat exmainations is based on the actual costs involved; and, if so, if she will outline the actual basis of calculation.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 and 151 together.
Projected expenditure on examinations this year is £8.5 million. The total cost to the Exchequer of running the examinations would far exceed this amount. When account is taken of other factors such as staff salaries — including inspectors — overtime, stationery, maintenance of building, supervision of group certificate and provision of examination materials, school transport costs etc., the true cost overall would be £12 million approximately.
Pupils whose parents or guardians are the holders of a current medical card — or a pupil, the holder of a medical card — will be exempted from the payment of the repeat fee on production of the medical card for noting by the school authorities.
For repeat candidates entering for one or two subjects only the fee will be £35 and £70 respectively.
The estimated amount of State expenditure, excluding capital expenditure on education for 1989 on a per capita basis, is £1,475 at post-primary level.
It should be noted that the fees for this year would have already been paid by this stage.
Is the Minister aware that the fee, not merely for this year but for future years, is becoming a massive burden on parents with regard to the expenditure on education for their children. In her reply the Minister has not said there are any proposals to withdraw that fee. Therefore, I am assuming it will escalate. Has the Minister any proposal to eliminate or even reduce that fee in order to facilitate people just above the medical card bracket who now feel the fee constitutes a massive burdren on them?
The Deputy asked, in his question, the cost of repeating the leaving certificate examination this year. In fact the fees would have been paid already for this year. The fee has not been increased since its introduction three years ago. It is a matter I will keep under review. I might add that the number of students repeating annually has greatly increased. People write to me about various aspects of the matter and it is something I will continue to keep under review.
Approximately how many students repeat the leaving certificate examination and what are the comparative figures in respect of repeats in previous years? With particular reference to my question, No. 151 — which relates to the comparison between the fee charged and the actual cost to the Department — would the Minister agree that, in respect of repeats, her Department are making a substantial profit in the sense that the examination is being held anyway and that the relevant cost with which to compare the charge to repeat students is the extra cost involved for those students, not the entire cost divided by the total number of students sitting the examination? On that basis would the Minister agree that her Department are in fact making a profit by means of repeats?
The day the Department of Education make a profit will be some day. I totally refute that allegation; absolutely not. First, the Deputy asked me for the numbers of students. I know their numbers have increased each year. I will forward the exact numbers who have repeated the examination for the past three years. That information is not contained in my back-up file here. I should like to give the Deputy the correct figure but I know it has increased by over 1,000 and somewhat more each year. We are not making a profit out of it at all; indeed far from it. If one takes into account all of the infrastructure, for want of a better description——
No, it is the marginal cost.
To begin with I should say the students are in school — I am not now talking about the attendance — I am talking about the students who go to school for a year. Naturally the pupil/teacher ratio is based on the number of students in a class. I would hope that more and more students would remain in their regular schools in order to repeat their leaving certificate examination, or go to a voluntary secondary, community comprehensive or vocational school rather than to the many outside agencies who run the examination repeat at a prohibitive cost — for example £1,500 on the last occasion. I would hope that students would remain in their regular schools. In regular schools, no matter how many students wish to repeat, they are accommodated and teachers always provided for them. It is the pupil/teacher ratio that applies.
Would the Minister not agree that many students are repeating the examination without going back to school where they would be receiving an indirect subsidy and that, in those cases anyway, the marginal cost to the Department of allowing them repeat the examination is virtually nil? Would she agree that the Department, in those cases at least, are making a profit?
That is another matter entirely.
That is the question I asked.
Not at all; that is not the question appearing on the Order Paper. I will have that information and a tabular statement of the costs incurred conveyed to Deputy John Bruton also to be added to the big red book he is compiling.
One of these days that book will fall down from the shelf onto the Minister's head.
I would love that.
Would the Minister not agree, to deal with the fee itself, the £200 to repeat the leaving certificate examination is excessive with regard to medical card holders whose income eligibility limit for a medical card in respect of a married couple is £103.50 with an additional approximate £11.50 per child? Would the Minister agree that if a family marginally above the income eligibility limit for a medical card must find £200, that sum is well in excess of a week's income? My main concern — and I am sure that of Deputy O'Sullivan also — is that this is consolidating a two-tiered education system with regard to repetition of the leaving certificate examination.
In levying that fee we took account of disadvantaged pupils, as evidenced in the medical card holder exemption. Indeed, we adopted the same criteria as the Fine Gael and Labour Parties when they introduced school transport fees and when they, too, had recourse to medical card eligibility in respect of such fee exemption. As I said to Deputy O'Sullivan, and I will say again to the House, it has not increased since it was brought in three years ago. It is something that I will be keeping under review.
Would the Minister accept that there is a basic inequality in post-primary education in that some schools provide five years post-primary education and some six years? Would she not consider addressing this problem by allowing pupils who repeat in a five year post-primary school to do so free of charge and only address the charge to those who already had six years post-primary education?
That is a separate question.
We are having an extension of this question.
It is a very good question.
Deputy Nora Owen, a final and a brief question.
Could I ask the Minister to clarify something that I thought I heard her say, that the cost for a repeat leaving certificate is £70? I would like the Minister to confirm that the cost is actually £111. I have a son who is repeating his leaving certificate and that is the amount of the receipt that I got from the Department. As well as that, he must also find a location in which to repeat——
The Deputy seems to be imparting information rather than seeking it.
If the Deputy wants to discuss privately with me the matter of her son, that is fine but I do not intend to bring it up here on the floor of the House.
A tete-à-tete.
A tete-à-tete. The Deputy should mind his French. To go back to Deputy Owen's question, what she heard me saying was that for repeat candidates entering for one or two subjects only, the fee will be £35 for one subject or £70 for two subjects.
Otherwise it is £111.
I feel there is some discrepancy in what the Deputy is telling me.
Something is amiss.