Vol. 395 No. 3
5 Mr. Nealon asked the Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to the fact that 8,000 privates and non-commissioned officers have joined the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representatives Association formed recently; and if, in view of this major development, he will recognise the association.
6 Mr. Nealon asked the Minister for Defence, in connection with his instructions to the Chief of Staff to examine the structures in use in the Defence Forces in other European Community Member States for consultations for privates, non-commissioned officers and officers, the examinations which have been carried out to date; the countries in which they were carried out; the consultations, if any, which have been carried out in this country with privates, non-commissioned officers and officers; the consultations, if any, which have taken place with the newly established Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association; the consultations which are planned within the Defence Forces in this country; the stage which the Chief of Staff has reached in preparing his report; and when this report or findings will be presented to him.
7 Mr. Ryan asked the Minister for Defence the way in which he proposes to respond to the fact that at present over 5,000 members of the Defence Forces have indicated that they have already joined the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association.
8 Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Defence if he has any objections to a representative body for members of the Defence Forces becoming affiliated to the ICTU; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
13 Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Defence if it is his intention to introduce a complaints commission to deal with queries from the Defence Forces; if he accepts the need for such a commission or similar complaints structure; if he accepts that complaints regarding Army pay and conditions should be dealt with by a body made up of representatives of enlisted personnel, officers and non-commissioned officers; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
43 Mr. McCartan asked the Minister for Defence the form which he envisages any representative association for members of the Defence Forces might take; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
50 Mr. Taylor asked the Minister for Defence if he envisages the establishment of a trade union or representative body for members of the Defence Forces, with full recognition and negotiating rights from his Department in 1990; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 13, 43 and 50 together.
As I indicated in reply to similar questions on 22 November 1989, preparations are being made for the establishment of a new structure in the Defence Forces for ongoing consultations and information on remuneration and related matters.
Last July, as announced at the time by the Taoiseach, I instructed the Chief of Staff to make preparations for the establishment of the new structure. The relevant studies which have since been taking place include consultation with personnel throughout the Permanent Defence Force. The proposals submitted by the individual NCOs and privates last year through the Chief of Staff are being taken into account in the examination of the matter.
In accordance with my instructions to the Chief of Staff, an examination of the position in other countries is being carried out. Information has been obtained in relation to a number of countries and three countries — Britain, Denmark and Italy — have been visited.
I personally met the members of the three teams which were assembled for the purposes of the independent Pay Commission and advised them that there would be consultation with them and with military personnel generally in regard to the proposed new representative structure.
Subsequently outline proposals were circulated to the teams and members of the Permanent Defence Force generally and the comments thereon are now being assembled by the military authorities.
In general terms, what is visualised is that representative groups will be established on the basis of elections by secret ballot. This in itself would be a major and fundamental development and is the essence of the new system which is contemplated. The representative groups will be able to submit proposals direct to a process of independent adjudication which will be provided to deal with such proposals. The representative groups will also be able to make submissions in regard to other conditions of service excluding such matters as discipline, operations, command and organisation.
As in the case of the submissions by military personnel to the independent Pay Commission, separate groups — one each for privates, non-commissioned officers and officers — may be the appropriate mechanism rather than one group for all ranks. While there may be something to be said in the interest of cohesion for one group, on balance and for the sake of not giving rise to the perception that senior rank is being used to the disadvantage or detriment of lower rank, three separate groups — in the first instance at any rate — are indicated. This is particularly important in an organisation where rank and hierarchy are vital characteristics.
In the nature of things, the representative groups would be unassociated with any body outside the Defence Forces.
The proposals which I have outlined comprehend the essentials of whatever scheme is put in place. It is important that the House should be satisfied that the proposed arrangements strike the correct balance between giving the members of the Permanent Defence Force a clear voice in pay etc. matters on the one hand and, at the same time, maintaining proper controls in the operational and command areas; there must be no erosion of the essential integrity of the force. In that connection it is important that no steps should be taken which would, in effect, be seen to pre-empt the decision of the authorities — civil and military: that situation could not be accepted.
I expect to be submitting the matter to Government shortly with a view to having suitable proposals brought before the House when Deputies will have a full opportunity to debate this very important matter.
I thank the Minister for the information given in the reply. However, is he not aware that the people responsible for the setting up of the PDFORRA have been extremely careful not to breach any Army regulation or any constitutional provision? In view of the fact that 8,000 people have joined this organisation, does he not think he should afford it recognition now?
I have no intention — and I have to watch this carefully — of pre-empting the democratic decision that would be taken by members of the force. I think it is very important that we first set up electoral procedures that are satisfactory, allow the elections to take place on a democratic basis, await the outcome from which will emerge the appropriate representative body or bodies which will fit into the mechanism I envisage. This will all form part of a Bill which I hope to have before the House very shortly and which will be debated in full.
We do not want a plethora of such bodies. We want to establish by way of legislation and regulation a procedure that allows for the establishment of representative bodies that are truly representative of the force. The body, or bodies depending on variations with regard to rank, will be representative of the force as a whole. Its officers will be elected democratically, the body or bodies will operate as a permanent organisation which will deal with a variety of matters which it is envisaged it should be associated with, welfare, credit facilities apart from pay and conditions.
The Minister has told us he has had consultations on this with members of the Defence Force. Is the Minister not aware that the only consultation which took place was the circulation of a document, on which various members of the force were asked to comment, that they were not entitled to give opinions on matters outside the scope of the document, and that that type of consultation is, quite frankly, a farce.
I cannot agree with that. As I said in my statement, I personally met and addressed the members of all three teams after they had made their submissions to the commission which was examining Army pay structure. I told them that the next step is what we are talking about now — the establishment of a representative structure or structures. The Army will be submitting their final recommendation, which I am expecting in the next couple of days, and there will be further discussion. I will then come to this House and we can debate the matter fully. That is the way to proceed.
I now call Deputy Seán Ryan, whose Question No. 7 refers.
Is the Minister not aware that morale will remain low until the problems in the force are resolved? While I acknowledge some progress has been made, I suggest that the Minister should state he would meet with those who have already signed up and joined the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association. The Minister should try to get them involved at this stage so that at the end of the day the Bill before the House will reflect the representative view of Army personnel. I think this is the way to deal with it.
I have met the representative groups from the various ranks who went before the Gleeson Commission on Pay and spoke to them about this aspect. Very shortly, I will receive a document from the Army in regard to this matter after they have had discussions within their ranks. They will then have democratic elections. I do not want to pre-empt the results of their elections. Once we devise a democratic structure within which the various tiers of the Defence Force — the three I have already mentioned — go through the democratic process of electing their representatives we can then proceed to do business. The legislation will go through the House side-by-side with this process and this will be of enormous benefit to the body or bodies that will emerge from the democratic process and which will be legitimised by regulations and legislation. They will also be legitimised by the process of election among the men but that has not happened yet.
How soon does the Minister anticipate the legislation will be before the House?
Within the next few months. I hope to have the legislation before the House within a month. I wish to assure the House that we are at a very advanced stage of preparation in all of this.
What the Minister has told us is that it is his intention to impose a structure on the Army who have decided that the best method to proceed is along the lines of the PDFORRA — the organisation which they had set up themselves. Let me ask the Minister a key question; will the organisation which he will set up be an internal organisation or an independent organisation? In other words, will it be funded by the members' own contributions or will the Army insist on funding it and keeping control over it?
I am surprised at the Deputy's suggestion because we have been very helpful in keeping him informed. I am not setting up any organisation. The House will debate new legislation which will enable the men to set up their own organisation through an electoral procedure. I am not going to impose any form of organisation on the Defence Force or the personnel of the Defence Force; let the Deputy focus on that.
Will it be an independent body with its own separate financing arrangement?
That is a matter that can be worked out. There will be regulations on the financing and internal organisation of the organisation. The men will choose their own body or bodies and that will be the absolute fundamental principle enshrined in the legislation. I am not setting up this body.
What is wrong with the body they have already established?
I am sorry Deputy. A brief and final supplementary from Deputy Ryan.
Would the Minister acknowledge or recognise the organisation referred to here this afternoon under regulations and under the terms of their constitution?
I am amazed that the House does not appreciate what is being done. What I am doing is setting up a framework within which democracy can exercise itself. I am not pre-empting any such circumstances. I would be pre-empting the position by allowing this, that or the other organisation to be regarded as the organisation speaking for the men or for the various ranks. What I am doing is setting up a clear-cut democratic procedure under which the men will elect their own structure or structures with which I will then proceed to deal. But we have got it the wrong way round. We must first allow the men to choose their representative body.
If the men vote for PDFORRA will the Minister accept it?
I am sorry, this question is becoming unwieldy.
If PDFORRA represent the sort of numbers the Deputy is talking about. The Deputy should not be chasing labels but, if they have the numbers the Deputy suggests, they will fill these posts. Whoever is elected through the democratic procedures agreed will automatically form the new organisations with which the Government and I as Minister for Defence, will be very pleased to deal. It is very clear-cut. The Deputy should not be looking for difficulties that do not exist. I was more than anxious to get this finally settled so that this will never recur as far as all future Governments are concerned and so that there will be a clearly elected representative body or bodies with whom ongoing Ministers for Defence can deal on a sensible, rational basis.
