Vol. 395 No. 6
Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement regarding the release of Nelson Mandela from prison; and, in particular, if he will outline his attitude as President of the European Council to the maintenance of sanctions against the apartheid regime in South Africa.
Mrs. Owen asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will ensure that at the meeting of EC Foreign Ministers in Dublin next weekend they will endorse the operation of EC sanctions against South Africa until such time as the apartheid system is fully dismantled.
I have already welcomed, on behalf of the Government, the release of Nelson Mandela. As I said at the time, he has demonstrated by his indomitable courage throughout the years that the human spirit can never be vanquished.
His release was a most positive step by the South African Government, following on from President de Klerk's speech to the South African Parliament on 2 February.
Today, Ireland has joined with our partners in the Twelve in issuing a statement on Nelson Mandela's release. This statement reads as follows:
The Twelve warmly welcome the release of Nelson Mandela, one of South Africa's longest serving political prisoners. They commend the South African Government on this step. Mr. Mandela's release has been one of the basic demands of the Twelve over the years. Taken with the steps announced by President de Klerk on 2 February, this is without doubt a most important contribution to the establishment of that climate which the Twelve consider necessary for the initiation of genuine negotiations with the black community. The Twelve repeat their view that these negotiations must be aimed at the total abolition of apartheid and the establishment of a new, democratic, united and non-racial South Africa.
Nelson Mandela has remained a potent symbol of freedom for all those struggling for the eradication of apartheid. His release comes at a crucial time in the history of South Africa when expectations are high that the Government has accepted that radical change to the structures of South African society can no longer be delayed.
The Twelve hope that all parties in South Africa will now seize the opportunity to achieve the end of apartheid by peaceful means through negotiation.
We have listened with considerable interest to the statements by Mr. Mandela since his release. In these he has shown himself to be without rancour and to adopt a constructive approach on the future of South Africa. His views will certainly provide an input into Twelve deliberations on their policy on South Africa.
In any discussions on Twelve sanctions, Ireland's primary function as Presidency is to take into account the views of partners and to work for consensus.
Our national position of total abhorrence of apartheid has been expressed on numerous occasions. We welcome the reforms President de Klerk recently introduced. They are of considerable significance in building that climate which is necessary before true negotiations with the genuine representatives of the black community can begin. However, further steps need to be taken. The state of emergency, for example, has not been lifted. Moreover, these recent measures do not address the fundamentals of the apartheid system, which must be addressed before the system of apartheid can be said to be in the process of being dismantled and the lifting of sanctions considered. Our objective remains the total abolition of apartheid and the establishment in South Africa of a new society based on principles of equality and justice for all.
I thank the Taoiseach for his elaborate reply, but I believe certain elaboration and clarifications are necessary. Will the Taoiseach indicate to the House whether he has received a communication in letter form from the British Prime Minister since the release of Nelson Mandela, whether he has replied to that correspondence and whether that correspondence was the basis of a reply given by the British Prime Minister in the House of Commons this afternoon in which she states that she finds the reply given by Deputy Haughey as President of the EC Council as being amenable on her position in relation to the possibility of sanctions being lifted in relation to South Africa?
I am not in a position to comment on what the Deputy has just mentioned. I am not aware of the reply given in the British House of Commons, but I received a communication from the British Prime Minister and I replied to it. My reply was along the lines I have given here in relation to our role in the Presidency. The Deputy will understand that I have made a distinction in my reply here between our duty, our role and our responsibility in the Presidency and our national position.
Perhaps I can seek an unequivocal statement from the Taoiseach in his role as Taoiseach of this country and in his role as President of the EC Council, that nothing has happened to date which would encourage us or the EC to seek any relaxation in the sanctions against the South African régime. It is extremely important for a clear statement to go out from the Taoiseach in both capacities in relation to what has hapened over the weekend, lest, as I believe, he has been quoted in the House of Commons as saying that because of a reply received from him consideration will be given at the next meeting of the Heads of State to the momentous events and to the changes that have taken place in South Africa. I would hate to think anything written by the Taoiseach of this country at this stage could lead the British Prime Minister or any other Heads of State in Europe to draw the conclusion that the Taoiseach is amenable to the position stated by the British Prime Minister over the weekend.
Hear, hear.
There is nothing of that kind arising. I would like the Deputy to understand that the latest position of the Twelve is as I have read out. The matter will be considered further at a meeting of Foreign Ministers on 20 February. In my capacity as President of the Council I have indicated that it is my duty and function to put all the relevant factors before my colleagues and if possible to achieve consensus and agreement. I would not at this stage wish to go any further, than that or to be taken, as President, as saying one thing or another or being amenable to this, that or the other. My position — I have to be scrupulous about this — is that I must not pre-empt the decision of the Community and anything I say must have the agreement of the Twelve. The latest agreed position of the Twelve is as I have stated here.
The Deputy can be quite clear as to Ireland's national position as distinct from the role of Ireland in the Presidency. The Irish national position is as I have read out, that these recent measures do not address the fundamentals of the apartheid system which must be addressed before that system of apartheid can be said to be in the process of being dismantled and the lifting of sanctions considered.
Order. Deputy Nora Owen has a question tabled on this subject matter also.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Will he not agree that the time has long since gone for statements of our abhorrence at apartheid to be worth anything with regard to its dismantling? For that reason will the Taoiseach give a firm guarantee to this House that he will ensure that no debate takes place about the lifting of sanctions until the five conditions agreed at the 16th United Nations session just over are fulfilled, namely, the release of all political prisoners and detainees unconditionally, the lifting of all bans on proscribed groups, the removal of all troops from the townlands, the end of the state of emergency and the repeal of all legislation such as the Internal Security Act and the ceasing of all political trials and executions? These five conditions were laid down by the UNO, of which Ireland is a member before any lifting or discussion about the lifting of sanctions should take place. I would like the Taoiseach's guarantee that until those five conditions are met he will not allow the EC countries to lift the sanctions.
I would not agree with the Deputy. I do not think our abhorrence of apartheid can be stated too often and the constant reiteration of such statements by the international community undoubtedly had an influence on present developments in South Africa. Secondly, I could not agree to rule out any discusions in any of the Councils of the Community. I suggest to the Deputy that on reflection she might agree that any member state is entitled to put forward any point of view it wishes, but then it is a matter for the Presidency to try to guide, steer or otherwise secure the position where the Council would arrive at an agreed and, it is hoped, the right decision.
Is the Taoiseach aware of these five conditions, and is his aim to ensure that they are met before he will let the Council of Ministers change? I recognise that he is supposed to work for agreement, but all the countries of the EC are members of the UNO and they have endorsed these five conditions. Therefore, I think there is an onus on him to remind them of that and to ensure the sanctions are not lifted. Could he perhaps make personal contact with the ANC leadership and Nelson Mandela to get their word that they want Europe to continue with sanctions, so that he can speak with a voice of authority directly from the leadership of the ANC and Nelson Mandela?
I think there is no doubt about the position of the ANC and Nelson Mandela on the question of maintining sanctions. We can all be quite clear about that.
Deputy Dick Spring.
I have been trying for some time——
I will facilitate the Deputy.
In the interest of clarity and following the Taoiseach's suggestion that he wishes to be scrupulous in this matter, and having concern, as I have, to Mrs. Thatcher's interpretation of the letter where she says she feels the Taoiseach is amenable to her expressed view, will the Taoiseach clear up this matter by providing Members of this House with a copy of his reply to Mrs. Thatcher's letter.
No, I could not do that without the express agreement of the British Prime Minister, but I can reiterate that my reply both to the British Prime Minister and to the Leader of the Opposition in Britain was entirely along the lines I have indicated here.
Is the Taoiseach being perhaps too scrupulous on two points? First in his reply to Mrs. Thatcher, given the fact that his reply has been quoted in the House of Commons this afternoon would the Taoiseach not agree that that frees him from any restrictions he might otherwise have in relation to correspondence of that kind? Is the Taoiseach not aware that his reply was quoted by Mrs. Thatcher in the context of her justification for the point of view she has taken over the past weekend that it is now time to relax the sanctions?
Would the Taoiseach not agree he is being too scrupulous on another point, in saying that he should not pre-empt the position of the Community on this issue? Would he not agree that that is totally at variance with the position he has taken in this House on other issues when he has been promoting his position as President of the European Council in order to get a "Green" Europe or any other type of Europe the Taoiseach has been talking about? Would the Taoiseach not agree that it is time the Presidency used the influence it has, which the Taoiseach flaunts, in order to get results we want on this issue?
I think the Deputy knows full well exactly what the role of the Presidency should be in these matters. There is nothing that I have said to anybody at this stage which would justify anybody presuming that, as President, I was taking a position which would make me amenable on the lifting of sanctions. I can say that very categorically to the Deputy. There is nothing that I have said either in reply to the Leader of the Opposition or to the British Prime Minister, or to anybody else, which would attempt to pre-empt the decision of the Twelve in regard to sanctions, and certainly nothing I have said would entitle anybody to say that I was amenable on the maintenance of sanctions. As to whether the correspondence can be revealed I will consider that.
I want to repeat, that on a matter as delicate, sensitive and of such fundamental and far-reaching importance I think it is right that I should not attempt to pre-empt the view of the Council. I think there would be some resentment among my colleagues if I attempted to do that. We are concentrating in this House on the view of the British Government, but there are other member states who, I am quite certain, will have their own views to put forward. I think it would be wrong and not helpful for me to attempt to pre-empt the outcome of those discussions, except to give the House my undertaking to endeavour to secure agreement among the Twelve, because that is very important. I think it is very important that the Twelve should have an agreed attitude. I will do everything I can to attempt to secure an agreed position of the Twelve and that that position will be the right one.
Deputy Owen rose.
I am sorry, Deputy, I must go on to another question. We cannot debate this matter now.
