Vol. 400 No. 6
10 Tomás Mac Giolla asked the Minister for Labour if his attention has been drawn to recent statistics which show that only 117 out of 12,000 full-time apprentices are women; if, in the light of these figures, he intends to take an initiative to increase the number of female apprentices, especially in traditionally male dominated industries; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Primary responsibility for the recruitment of apprentices rests with employers, with FÁS and the educational system providing the off the job element of training. FÁS is implementing, in relation to female apprentices, a positive action programme in favour of women, one of whose objectives is to increase significantly the rate of female participation in apprenticeships over the three year period 1990-93. The action programme has been developed in such a manner as to encourage and help more and more women to participate in sectors that have been traditionally dominated by men and in the growth sectors of the economy. However, such initiatives cannot be successful without the active support and commitment of employers and I would urge employers to sponsor female apprentices. In order to provide an additional incentive to companies and potential female apprentices, FÁS will sponsor ten bursaries in 1990 for new female apprentices to assist with apprenticeship support costs during the off the job training period.
The general question of equality and equity in relation to apprentice recruitment will be addressed in the current review of apprenticeships being undertaken by FÁS at present.
Does the Minister not agree that against the backdrop of 117 out of 12,000 full-time apprentices being women, it is absurd and a waste of breath to exhort employers to encourage the participation of more women in apprenticeship schemes? Does the Minister further accept that it is necessary now for the Government to take positive action to intervene in this area; otherwise we are merely paying lip service to greater equality in the workforce? Would he agree that one cannot have a greater participation in the workforce of a greater number of women if there are only 117 female apprentices out of a total of 12,000 in a given year?
Deputy Rabbitte is right. Successive Governments did nothing about this issue and it is only that I went to the trouble of compiling the figures and issuing them recently that Deputy Rabbitte has the information. Only 0.9 per cent of the total apprenticeship population are female but this year we have achieved an increase of 52, which was hard to achieve. We have set-out a programme of how we can bring the number up to 400 by 1992. This has to be done almost directly by FÁS using their influence because they control the apprenticeship register and they also control the FÁS-sponsored apprenticeships and the apprenticeships sponsored by companies in conjunction with FÁS, but they cannot directly change some other apprenticeships. FÁS have also been in touch with State bodies and the local authorities and are trying to increase the intake of women into companies.
I would also like to tell Deputies that each FÁS region is developing a strategy for an increase in the number of female apprentices (a) by promoting a recruitment drive aimed at females, setting up mainline courses and also the schools and VPT courses; (b) through the bursaries I have already mentioned; (c) through the promotion campaign in industry by the services division of FÁS; and (d) an induction programme for females into apprenticeships because in the absence of that many females were turned off by the whole idea of apprenticeships — and this is borne out in surveys — because they did not understand them and they did not get much encouragement either. The induction programme will give them the opportunity of seeing precisely what they will be involved in. If all of these measures work, and I am determined they will work, I hope we will get up to 400 female apprentices within a two year period and I think that will be a major achievement. It will not be easy to achieve because there is very little support from employers for this type of programme.
May I——
I am calling Deputy Monica Barnes.
Does the Minister not agree that the initiative could be expanded on two other levels? I am sure the Minister is aware of the pressure and sense of isolation one or two female apprentices can feel among a large group of male apprentices and how this can force the few who go in to leave. Perhaps funding could be made for a network of support for female apprentices. Female apprentices on low wages cannot afford to travel and so are not in a position to stay together and support one another. Would the Minister consider making funds available for such a network? While I welcome the other initiatives which have been taken, I regard the training and re-training of programme managers, the interview board and the course tutors as most important because their attitude can be as negative as anything else that can happen to female apprentices.
I will take into account the points made by Deputy Barnes on this subject because she has more knowledge of this area, perhaps, than anyone else in this House. I will bring the Deputy's remarks to light in any discussions with FÁS. With regard to the training and retraining of instructors, I should have mentioned that consideration has been given to this issue since it was raised by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights.
Does the Minister not agree that it is important to have some sort of advertising campaign in this area? Part of the problem arises in the homes because parents do not regard apprenticeships for girls as realistic. An advertising campaign funded by the Department or a semi-State body like FÁS could be relevant and could help the Minister in what he is trying to do.
I thank the Deputy for her support. As I said on 6 June, our objective is to increase significantly the rate of female participation in apprenticeships and to bring to the notice of the public the figures which have shocked Deputy Rabbitte and, I think, everybody else. The important part of this objective is to get employers to participate. Since the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights got me to take an interest in this issue I have found out that it is extremely difficult to get employers to participate. If employers visited the FÁS centre in Jervis Street they would see that the female apprentices who were taken into the Custom House development have almost proved to be as good as the men. As I have found out over the past three months, it is hard to convince them of this.
Deputies Bell, O'Sullivan and Rabbitte rose.
Three Deputies are offering and I will call them if they will be brief. I call Deputy Bell first.
I agree with the Minister that discrimination against women, young or old, did not begin with him; it has been there since the foundation of the State. As a founder member of AnCO and FÁS, I have seen at first hand the situation in relation to female apprentices. Is the Minister aware that nearly all of the FÁS centres will take on apprentices only if they are sponsored by employers and that they will not nominate young women in preference to young men? Does he not agree that the fundamental selection process for young women in FÁS courses is not changed we will be wasting our time in this respect?
As I have said, FÁS are now going to give positive discrimination in favour of women on courses which are sponsored by them. This will mean, in effect, that if they are running an electrician's course in a certain region and have to sponsor 25 people then X number of the apprentices will be female.
That is the answer.
While I accept that there is an imbalance regarding the intake of apprentices, is the Minister confident that the figures are accurate? The figure of 117 female apprentices out of a total of 12,000 full-time apprentices does not seem to be in keeping with the proportion of female apprentices in other sections of industry. Does the Minister have figures on the numbers of apprentices in traditional areas such as hairdressing and work of that nature?
That is a good point because many courses which are classified as apprenticeships in other countries are not classified as such here. I am only going on what is classified as proper apprenticeships on our apprenticeship register. A review is being carried out at present to see if this register should be expanded. I understand the figures are as correct as they can be and are taken from the FÁS register.
Deputy Pat Rabbitte for a final question.
Given that all sides of the House agree that these figures constitute a national embarrassment, may I ask the Minister if he would consider directing FÁS or otherwise influencing them to establish a quota for women apprentices in at least some of the skills?
As I announced on 6 June, a number of apprenticeships in each of the crafts will be allocated for each region over the three year period 1990-93 and a certain number of the apprentices will have to be female. That is the position in relation to FÁS. As Deputy Bell pointed out, there will be higher numbers on the employers' side, which is a separate exercise. We are hoping to increase the number of female apprentices on the FÁS side from 28 to 400, which would be a substantial improvement. We have set this target out in the programme and we will give it further profile. If we can achieve this target we will have done a major day's work.
Could a system of some kind — I hesitate to say penalty system — be operated against employers who refuse to co-operate? As the Minister is aware, the funding given to employers in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries who took on women apprentices helped greatly and enabled them to recognise the excellence of their women workers.
We are giving consideration to such a scheme in the area of equality generally, which I suppose is not unrelated to this issue. The new programme on equality, launched in conjunction with the Irish Personnel Managers, proposed such an award scheme. I have announced the details of the award system in the Employment Equality Agency and the work of organisations and people involved in positive discrimination in favour of women will be highlighted and documented. Such an award scheme is not unrelated to this issue and I will give consideration to it. An award scheme for employers would be better than criticising them as criticism does not necessarily work.
