Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Jul 1990

Vol. 401 No. 6

Estimates 1990 (Resumed). - Vote 19 — Office of the Minister for Justice (Revised Estimate).

Minister for Justice (Mr. Burke)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £20,897,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1990, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a grant and grant-in-aid.

I propose that all the votes for which I am responsible be taken together, but I shall endeavour to answer questions on any particular Vote.

The Total Estimate for all the votes for which I am responsible is £412,617,000, an increase of £38,240,000 or 10.21 per cent above the expenditure for these Votes in 1989. The Estimate is made up as follows:—

	£
Vote 19 — Office of the Minister for Justice	20,897,000
Vote 20 — Garda Síochána	300,697,000
Vote 21 — Prisons	67,928,000
Vote 22 — Courts	13,955,000
Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds	9,012,000
Vote 24 — Charitable Donations and Bequests	128,000

Pay and allowances, etc., account for 83.5 per cent of the total Estimates and show an increase of 9.3 per cent compared with 1989.

As I have already announced, following publication of the Department of Justice Estimates last year, substantial additional resources are being committed to the Garda Síochána this year as part of a major crime fighting package. The public want the reassurance of a visible Garda presence on our roads and streets and my crime fighting package is intended to ensure that the public get that reassurance.

The allocation for the Garda Vote for this year shows an increase of 10 per cent on the allocation last year and allows for the following measures: the appointment of 250 civilian clerical staff to release gardaí from office work to perform outdoor crime prevention and detection duties; 200 additional promotions in the Garda Síochána to posts as sergeant, inspector, superintendent and chief superintendent level; an estimated 250 gardaí in the ranks of garda, sergeant and inspector who would be due to retire on reaching age 57 before the end of 1991 are being enabled to serve until age 60; and the pace of recruitment of 1,000 trainee gardaí is being accelerated. 348 trainees will be taken on during 1990, which is 50 more than originally planned. Some 260 young men and women will become fully attested members of the Force this year. The first group of 82 were sworn in on 2 June and the majority of them have now taken up duty in the Dublin city centre area.

Above and beyond the increase in Garda resources in 1990 which I have already mentioned, there is a number of further significant areas where additional resources are being made available.

Additional funding is being provided for Garda overtime. The allocation for 1990 is £10.5 million. This represents an increase of £2.85 million on the provision for 1989. Additional funding is also being provided for the purchase of Garda vehicles — an extra £250,000 and technical police equipment — an extra £250,000. An increase of £500,000 is being made in the provision for Garda uniforms in 1990.

Funding is being provided in 1990 to enable development of the Garda communications network to take place and thus to ensure that the Garda Síochána continue to be provided with the most modern communications technology. The Garda network has been operating very successfully for some time in the 18 Garda divisions outside the Dublin Metropolitan Area and the DMA system which incorporates a sophisticated computerised command and control system, which deals with "999" calls, came into operation in 1989.

Additional funding has been provided for capital expenditure on Garda computerisation. The provision in 1990 is £395,000 that is almost double what it was last year. Developments planned for 1990 include increasing the capacity of the Garda computer, linking additional Garda stations to this computer and developing new computer systems.

All the measures I have outlined above are intended to increase the number of gardaí on the beat and to strengthen Garda resources in the fight against crime. The increased allocations indicate my determination and the Government's determination that the Garda are provided with the resources, in terms of manpower and equipment, to fight crime and the criminal elements in our society. As I have said time and again since becoming Minister for Justice, I intend to see to it that the number of gardaí available on the beat on our streets is maximised so as to provide the greatest possible protection for the citizens going about his or her lawful business, be it in the home, at work or on the street.

Turning to crime, I am glad to be able to say that following a slight increase in the level of recorded indictable crime in 1988, the provisional figures for 1989 indicate a decrease over the 1988 level. The Garda authorities are continually involved in an ongoing process of assessing and adapting their strategies as the need arises to meet changing crime patterns. In the last number of years there has been a particular emphasis on dealing with crimes of violence. The Garda authorities have informed me that their policies have met with some success and the provisional figures for 1989 show a substantial decrease in the level of armed crimes recorded throughout the whole country and particularly in the Dublin area.

The recent events, where gardaí confronted armed raiders in different parts of the country, demonstrate the continuing determination of the Force to apprehend the evil perpetrators of these robberies. In their difficult mission in seeking to prevent the successful perpetration of armed crime, the Garda deserve the whole-hearted support of the entire community.

The continuing problem of attacks on tourists visiting our country is receiving a great deal of attention from the Garda. Measures being taken to tackle this problem include the deployment of additional Garda patrols, including gardaí on plain clothes duty in areas of high tourist interest. Arrangements have been made with various bodies such as the Car Rental Council of Ireland, port authorities at Dún Laoghaire, regional tourism managers and the Irish Hotel Federation for the printing and distribution of leaflets which offer to tourists practical advice on such matters as car security and the safety of personal belongings.

An important element in promoting police effectiveness is the Garda community policing scheme, which has proved to be a very successful way of putting the Garda in closer touch with the community they serve. The number of community gardaí in Dublin now stand at 109, including 7 supervisors. Essentially, what is involved in the community policing scheme, is the assignment of particular members on a full-time basis to patrol duties in specific areas. The garda involved in each area participating in the scheme works the hours of greatest public activity in his or her area. Through his or her work in this scheme, the garda becomes personally known to many individuals in the area. People who might otherwise hesitate to approach the authorities about their crime and vandalism worries are greatly convenienced and reassured by this scheme. The Garda Commissioner informs me that he is preparing a further expansion of the community policing scheme to take place shortly, now that the first batch of the new Garda trainees have become full members of the Force and taken up their assignments.

The neighbourhood watch programme was developed to allow people play their part in preserving their own communities free from crime, working in close co-operation with the Garda Síochána. The programme has achieved widespread success and there are now 831 schemes nationwide involving some 192,400 households. The Garda authorities consider that these schemes have had a deterrent effect on the criminal, have improved co-operation and communication between the public and the gardaí, have increased awareness of home security and have lessened anxiety among participants about crime.

A noteworthy development in recent months is the pharmacy watch scheme. This is a crime prevention programme on the lines of neighbourhood watch in which pharmacists and their staffs in an area agree to assist each other in co-operation with the Garda Síochána, to curb criminal attacks directed against chemists' shops for the purpose of getting drugs.

These are all encouraging signs that more and more we are all playing our part in tackling the crime problem and, if we continue to work together, there is a great deal that we can do to beat the burglar, the vandal and the thief.

The continued violent campaign of the Provisional IRA continues to pose a threat to us all both North and South. We know that, unfortunately, the Provisional IRA have available to them large quantities of sophisticated weapons and explosives. The Garda Síochána remain determined in their efforts to seek out and seize those weapons; in 1989, for example, 122 firearms, 24,712 rounds of ammunition and 1,824 pounds of explosives, including 60 pounds of semtex, were seized by the Force. The Garda have continued that good work this year and continue to make regular finds of arms, ammunition and explosives.

I now turn to the Prisons Vote. The Estimate here allows for considerable developments in this area with estimated expenditure increasing from roughly £59 million in 1989 to £68 million in 1990. Among the principal developments provided for are the bringing into full operation of the new place of detention at Wheatfield, Clondalkin. By the end of 1989, the first half of Wheatfield, comprising of 160 places, had been occupied and there are now 240 offenders detained there. By the end of this year, the full complement of 320 offenders will be accommodated. This represents considerable progress for Wheatfield is the first purpose built institution of its kind to be provided since the foundation of the State.

Funds have also been provided for a new medical unit at Mountjoy Prison to cater for the special needs of about 60 offenders suffering from infectious diseases, including HIV/AIDS. Other projects are the refurbishment of St. Patrick's institution and Mountjoy Women's Prison and I regard these as particularly desirable developments.

Unfortunately, the coming on stream of the 300 or so extra places involved in these projects over the next 18 months to two years will not enable me to close any institution — pressure on accommodation is such that every place will have to continue in operation and to be maintained and upgraded as necessary. A sum of £8 million was allocated for this purpose in 1990 — £5 million for expenditure on capital works and £3 million for the maintenance of existing accommodation. Work related to the upgrading of security and improvement of facilities generally is being undertaken in Mountjoy, Portlaoise, Limerick, Cork, Arbour Hill, Loughan House, Shelton Abbey, Fort Mitchel and Shanganagh Castle.

The total allocation in the Estimates for salaries, wages and allowances is £47.599 million. This represents a 14 per cent increase over the Estimate for 1989. This substantial increase reflects the cost of the additional staff required to operate the second phase of the occupation of Wheatfield, as well as additional costs arising in 1990 as a consequence of the public service pay agreement and the balance of a special pay award to prison service grades.

The 1990 Estimate also reflects the aim, even at times of pressure on accommodation generally, to maintain the quality of regimes in the institutions at the highest possible level. I would refer, for example, to the provisions made for education and work training programmes in the prisons and places of detention. An allocation of £315,000 is provided this year for education equipment and materials. I should stress that this is only part of the overall cost involved in the provision of education in the prisons — there are the equivalent of 123 full-time teachers assigned and the cost of their salaries is borne by the vocational education committees. In relation to work training programmes, an allocation of £725,000 is provided and this figure does not include the cost of the prison service staff involved. There were other issues in relation to the courts and so on that I wanted to touch on but the Deputies can read about them in the script I circulated. I will be pleased to answer any questions put in the limited time available to me at the end of the debate.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The manner in which the Minister was taken short indicates how ludicrous it is to expect any detailed or coherent debate on Estimates for more than £400 million in the short time available to us. It is because of the time limit that my remarks will be general rather than concentrate on a detailed examination of the Estimates.

The utter stupidity of the Taoiseach in appointing a part-time Minister for Justice is now becoming very obvious. From the foundation of the State the office of Minister for Justice has been a major and senior portfolio. Very often, because of its law reform functions, a junior Minister has, in addition, been appointed. For reasons which have never been explained, the Taoiseach has combined the office of Minister for Justice with that of Minister for Communications, has failed to appoint a Minister of State to either Department and, accordingly, must now bear responsibility for the utter failure of the Minister for Justice to discharge his functions properly and effectively. Justice Minister Burke must, of course, share in this responsibility because of his willingness to participate in this arrangement by accepting both offices.

It is not for me to comment on the performance of Communications Minister, Deputy Burke. Others have expressed very valid criticisms on that score. My principal criticism is that a Minister who should be devoting his time and energies to a full range of functions in the Department of Justice has instead bogged himself down on the Broadcasting Bill and related matters. He seems to be more concerned about opening and closing radio stations than about the very real problems of all our citizens in relation to crime and the administration of justice.

The failures of our part-time Minister for Justice are manifold. Many of his duties and responsibilities have been seriously neglected. At times one has the impression that the Department of Justice are running on auto-pilot while the responsible Minister is concerning himself about other matters. The Minister has failed to establish a comprehensive campaign against crime which now rates as the number one concern of the majority of our citizens. With all due respect, referring to slight increases up or down is not relevant. In the forties the number of recorded indictable crimes was 15,000; in the sixties it had gone up to 25,000 and we are now talking about 90,000. That is the scale of the problem and it requires unremitting attention from a Minister if it is to be comprehensively tackled. The Minister has failed to accept the need for and the request of the Garda representative bodies for a commission to review the role and effectiveness of the Garda Síochána. The Minister has failed to understand the need to update and consolidate our antiquated, Victorian criminal laws which at this stage are a boon to criminals who so often exploit the loopholes. Here again the advice of the DPP has been ignored. My proposals to establish a criminal law reform commission have been consistently rejected.

The Minister has failed to appreciate the necessity for penal reform and has largely ignored the recommendations of the Whitaker report. He has not even responded to my request for a Dáil debate on the issue.

The Minister has also failed the victims of crime and to respond to the legitimate concerns expressed on their behalf. Proposals for a system of restitution and compensation have been ignored, the reorganisation of the Criminal Injuries Tribunal has been neglected and the Minister is impervious to the feelings of those victims whose attackers receive over-lenient sentences.

The Minister has failed to ensure the setting up of a Dáil Committee on Crime and, in fact, he has impeded the re-constitution of this committee by insisting on a Government chairman of a committee with a Government majority, thus breaking established precedent.

The Minister has failed to avail of a golden opportunity now being offered to close the loopholes in relation to our bail laws. I have offered Fine Gael co-operation to get the legislation through the House so that the necessary referendum can coincide with the presidential election in November. Again, the Minister, while he agrees that there is a problem and that a referendum is the only solution, failed to act.

The Minister has failed to allow the Garda Síochána Complaints Board to do this job as provided by statute and deliberately presided over a scene where the board have been unable to investigate a single complaint made since August 1989. The damaging effects on public confidence and on morale in the Garda have been highlighted in the recent reports of the board which, as yet, have not been published by the Minister.

The Minister has failed to take any effective steps to deal with the chaos in the Land Registry. In fact, he has presided over a situation where arrears and delays have virtually doubled during his relatively short term of office. His inertia has resulted in many thousands of people being put to substantial loss as they are unable to obtain their title documents.

The Minister has failed to undertake a programme of law reform. Essentially, the legislation from his Department which has been dealt with in the Dáil since his appointment was largely inherited from his predecessor. The joint Programme for Government promised a major programme of civil and criminal law reform. Where are the promised changes involving the process of codifying the criminal law? Where are the new laws in relation to libel? Indeed, where are the promised laws in relation to phone tapping? Similarly, court reorganisation involving the new Civil Court of Appeal and a promised scheme for family courts have not appeared.

Nowhere is the failure of the Minister for Justice more obvious than in relation to extradition. Fine Gael believe that no person charged with offences of violence against the person or offences relating to firearms or explosives should be entitled to hide behind the political offence exemption in the extradition Acts as currently constituted. The Minister is fully aware of the gaping loopholes opened as a consequence of the Finucane and Carron decisions in the Supreme Court. Yet he stands transfixed in a time warp using as his defence the need for further court decisions before he will take any action. Does he realise the logical consequence of this approach? Very simply, it will involve those with blood on their hands walking free out of our courts because of the Minister's failure to act now.

There is no point in the Minister attempting to obscure his failures behind phrases and language which are merely a cover-up for inactivity. The case of Donna Maguire is a clear example of this. A request for a clear statement of the facts in this case has been met with evasion and ultimately three statements from Government sources, none of which gave the facts and which were themselves conflicting. The refusal to give basic facts has been justified on totally spurious grounds What I sought were matters of fact relative to the actions of the Minister for Justice and not matters of prejudice affecting a person now facing criminal charges in another jurisdiction.

The Minister has failed to give the facts. He has obscured his inactivity behind verbiage and merely stated that "the application for extradition was appropriately dealt with as soon as the legal advisers on the matter had satisfied themselves as to the action that should be taken". What does this mean? I challenge the Minister to give the facts of this case and to reply to the following questions: Was a request for extradition made? By whom was it made? When was it made? Was further information sought under the Extradition Act and was an order made and, if so, when?

Before he replies to this challenge, may I convey to him that information has just now come to my attention that the reason for the failure to extradite in this case was that a warrant was not issued until the day after the accused had been acquitted in the Special Criminal Court and had left the country. I challenge the Minister to confirm or deny whether this is a fact; it can lead only to one conclusion, at best confirming indolence and inactivity on the part of the Minister and at worst total ambivalence on the whole question of extradition.

The catalogue of failures of the present part-time Minister for Justice is as long as your arm. It is clear that the demand of the Dáil now should be for the appointment of a full-time Minister for Justice. That must presuppose the present Minister resigning either as Minister for Justice or as Minister for Communications. If his present record is maintained the demand will be that he resign from both positions.

Mr. Spring

The Office of Minister for Justice is perhaps one of the most onerous and demanding offices in Cabinet and puts enormous pressures on the individual concerned and his family, in terms of security. In the normal course of events the Minister for Justice should have the support of this House in carrying out the functions of that office. However, in the case of Deputy Burke, who is both Minister for Justice and Minister for Communications, I firmly believe, as I have said in the past, that it was bad judgment on the part of the Taoiseach to give an individual Member of this House responsibility for any other Ministry while carrying the very demanding and severe burden of the Office of Minister for Justice. Given that his remit covers the prisons, courts, crime, the Garda Síochána, the Land Registry and so on, it is an enormous responsibility. Furthermore, given the other functions he is charged with on behalf of the citizens I suggest to the Taoiseach that it is now time we returned to the position where we have a full-time Minister for Justice.

It is quite clear that each of the areas for which the Minister has responsibility are in need of immediate attention. In many instances, the Department are very much behind in terms of the work being done on legislation to be introduced in the House. We will find it very difficult to support the Minister on the various aspects of his portfolio. The legal aid scheme manifested itself in a most blatant manner in recent months. The chairman of the board, a respected member of the legal profession, resigned in frustration because of the failure of the Minister to bring about the minimum changes in the legal aid scheme. The chairman and senior members had no choice — if they had any respect for themselves — but to resign from the board. That was an indictment of the Government's failure to support both the board and the legal aid scheme. Deputy Collins, the previous occupant of the office, made clear pledges in this House, on the judicial separation Bill, that the scheme would be supported and extra resources allocated but, unfortunately, nothing has been done and resources have not been provided, with the result that the benefits of this legislation can be availed of only by those with cash. Those who cannot afford the fees are being denied justice because of the failure of the Minister and the Government to support the legal aid scheme.

The chairman of the Garda Complaints Board admitted in public in recent weeks that they are at a standstill, with the result that any confidence the public may have had has been undermined. They are unable to process claims. Indeed, they have made it clear to the public that their chances of ever eliminating the backlog are minimal.

There has been much debate on the prisons in recent weeks and it appears the Minister has little or no interest in the recommendations of the Whitaker report. Certain improvements are being made and I urge the Minister to ensure that the conditions for female prisoners in particular are improved as quickly as possible. It is important in the short-term that facilities are improved for women prisoners who are incarcerated in the most appalling conditions.

The Minister had also failed to increase the strength of the Garda Síochána. Despite the public advertisements carried in recent years the shortage of numbers has become manifest in recent months. Having regard to the extra responsibilities placed on them during the Presidency the Garda found themselves stretched but, to be fair to them, they did an excellent job and accepted the extra responsibilities placed on them. I have to say, however, that the Minister placed a very unfair burden on them, given the increasing crime rate. Against this, they have achieved an excellent success rate in tackling the most severe forms of crime, such as armed robbery. The Garda deserve the support of this House and the best way of showing this is to ensure they have adequate numbers and resources to face the severe task they are confronted with which could result in many instances, as happened late last week, of members putting their lives on the line. They have done so without fear in recent months and for this they deserve the support of this House.

In his contribution the Minister referred to the increase in attacks against visitors to the city and the rest of the country. I put it to the Minister that the only possible way of tackling this problem is to increase Garda numbers on the street. The press have highlighted the attacks on tourists but it should be borne in mind that we are not only dealing with attacks on tourists but also with attacks on motorists who are being attacked on a daily basis while stopped at traffic lights. It is not good enough to say that he has asked the tourist board and tourist offices to hand out leaflets to tourists offering advice on how to protect their cars. What we need to do is put more gardaí on the streets and if need be we can direct the Minister to the locations around the city where people are likely to have their cars broken into while stopped at traffic lights. There is an urgent need for the Minister to put gardaí back on the streets and increase their numbers which have fallen in recent years. It is also quite clear that members are being recruited at a very slow pace.

The Land Registry has been the subject of much discussion in this House. I am at a loss to understand why this institution, which makes a profit, cannot transact their business in a more efficient manner. The staff of the Land Registry, despite enormous difficulties and obstacles, still find themselves in a ridiculous position. Twice, if not three times, within the past six months the issue of the 50,000 cases before the Land Registry has been before the House. Indeed, the backlog is increasing by about 10,000 cases every three months. Perhaps the Minister will explain the reason the Land Registry, which is capable of making profits and a return to the Exchequer, are not being given the resources and the necessary computer equipment to enable them carry out their business in an efficient and strictly commercial manner. The staff have made numerous suggestions to the Minister but, unfortunately, these have been ignored.

The number of issues to be dealt with in the Department of Justice are beginning to pile up. For instance, the need for law reform, it would appear, is being ignored. The reports of the Law Reform Commission are gathering dust at a time when they should be implemented by way of legislation. If the Minister wishes to do this he will find that the House is only too willing to assist him in updating both our criminal and civil laws. If the Minister does not take his responsibilities seriously and update the law we also will neglect our responsibilities and the matter will fall back on the courts. It is unfortunate that in recent years the courts have had to take the initiative in terms of law reform whereas it should be taken by this House.

Mr. McCartan

I rise to contribute to the comment on the Minister's Estimate and to say that the session that will be completed here tomorrow has been remarkable for a number of reasons, first, not least because it was a session in which we debated for the first time in a long time a motion of no confidence in the person in the office of the Minister for Justice and Communications. On 23 February last I first raised the issue, in view of clear inability, on the evidence of his performance in the House and in the workload simply going unattended, that Deputy Burke, as Minister should be relieved of one or other of the portfolios. That case still exists. I repeat that it is time we had a full-time Minister for Justice.

In view of the areas of law reform and the particular attention that is needed regarding the development of issues within the Department within the Law Reform Commission and now, most importantly, as presented to us by the Fair Trade Commission report into Restrictive Practices in the Legal Profession, there is a case not only for a full-time Minister for Justice but also for that Department to be serviced by a Minister of State with responsibility for reform and development in areas of law reform. This session was also remarkable because we have one of the most significant documents ever to be issued in regard to the legal profession and which should present us with a major debate for consideration over the next few months, in the next session and beyond regarding the future of legal practice and the delivery of legal services generally.

In that regard I would ask the Minister to clarify what role his Department will have to play with regard to the promotion and development of the ideas contained in that report. I understand there is some confusion as to whether it will be within his remit or that of the Department of Industry and Commerce to address the issues raised and to advance them further. It is also a remarkable session because we entered it with an undertaking, as I recall from a joint Programme for Government, to have a committee on crime established. Although the motion had been debated by the Whips for months prior to the opening of this session, and was put on the Order Paper, and has been there for a number of weeks, it fails to be moved by the Government and, in particular, by the Minister whose responsibility it was to see that it was in place. However, we do not yet have the committee on crime as promised. As a result the work of this House in this important area has been damaged.

I said the publication of the Fair Trade Commission report was a remarkable development. I am disappointed with the response of the Government. It is one of the most comprehensive examinations undertaken of the legal profession for a long number of years. It will have serious implications, not only for the legal profession but for our tired legal system, the public and the legal consumers. It is disappointing that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, in response to its publication, should have dismissed the prospect of any fusion of the two sections of the legal profession within the next ten years. It must be said also that the response of the legal profession has been disappointingly negative. It has been long acknowledged that there is an urgent need to update legislation governing this area and the report of the Fair Trade Commission would certainly have been the basis for such new legislation.

The legal profession will have to realise that we are on the verge of a new century and that legal practice and legal education will have to be developed to serve the needs of a modern society. Ideally, this updating should be done on the basis of discussion and co-operation between the Oireachtas and the legal professions. However, in the end, if the legal professions are not prepared to act, the obligation would clearly be on this Oireachtas to do so. It is clear from a cursory view of the report — which is all I have been capable of at this stage — that many of the proposals are profound in their nature and by definition will require a serious address of the issue of fusion of the professions. This small community, this island, cannot afford two elusive and expensive arms of the one profession. I regret that the reaction of the Minister for Industry and Commerce was to put on the long finger the address of that issue by suggesting it will not happen within the next ten years.

In the general context I would ask the Minister, when responding, to indicate when the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill will be before this Dáil for debate and discussion. There is a clear need to address structural shortcomings in the solicitors profession, particularly in the area of the supply of solicitors in view of the amazing shortage now being exposed in the development of the Financial Services Centre and its related industries. It is clear that access to legal education and to the profession generally must be addressed. We cannot await conclusions on this weighty tome of the Fair Trade Commission to act in these areas.

Generally, other areas of the Minister's remit stand in chaos. Two important State boards for which he has responsibility — the Civil Legal Aid Board and the Garda Complaints Board — are operating in conditions approaching impossible existence. I commend the acts of the two leading members of the solicitors and bar professions in resigning from the Civil Legal Aid Board as an act of protest. I recognise that the Minister has not responded to their acts of bravery other than reappointing them and has not addressed the fundamental issues raised by their departure. I recognise also that the chairman of the Garda Complaints Board has made it clear that the Minister should fund that board properly or simply disband it. Any words of acknowledgment and gratitude to the Garda Síochána ring very hollow as regards their morale in view of the way in which the Garda Complaints Board cannot deal effectively and rapidly with the complaints against them.

I am disappointed also at the failure of the Minister to ensure that the Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Bill has not passed the Dáil. It has been in circulation now for over 18 months and we have not yet embarked upon the Committee Stage. It was the absence of the Minister through important Stages of that Bill and the fact that it was being taken piecemeal one day here — one day there — that led me in February to consider that it was time to call on the Government to address the need for a full-time Minister for Justice.

The public concern about our bail system is understandable in the light of a number of recent incidents in which persons on bail were found to be involved in further serious offences. However, I would urge the Government to react with great caution to popular demands to end or unnecessarily restrict the right to bail. The right to bail cannot be separated from the principle, which is the cornerstone of our legal system, that a person is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Any general attack on the right to bail would be an attack on that principle. The public should also realise that any significant withdrawal of the right to bail would lead to a far greater number of persons, including the innocent, spending long periods in jail awaiting trial. Unless we are prepared to spend possibly hundreds of millions of pounds building additional cell space this will mean grossly over-crowded prisons, more jail deaths and the strong possibility of Strangeways type prison violence.

It is right that the public be concerned when persons on bail commit serious offences but there are other ways of approaching the problem. It should be noted, first, that the number of offences committed by persons on bail has fallen dramatically since the Criminal Justice Act was passed which provided for consecutive jail sentences in respect of offences committed while on bail. Second, the most effective way of ensuring that those on bail do not commit further offences is to speed up the process for bringing persons to trial. At present it is not unusual for a gap of up to 18 months or even two years to elapse between a person being charged and actually coming to trial. In that regard the concern about tourists and the need to deal effectively with their plight when attacked by thugs in the city and elsewhere can be addressed effectively by a speedy trial, ensuring that tourists are in a position to attend the court, give their evidence and for the case to be dealt with without delay.

The provision of extra staff for the courts and a general modernisation of procedures would greatly speed up hearings. Another initiative that could be taken is the forfeiture of bail money if an offence is committed while on bail — in other words, requiring independent bail, rendering the person putting up bail responsible for not just ensuring that the defendant turns up for trial but also that the defendant is of good conduct while on bail.

I make the point, as have many others, that the time available to us is ridiculously short to address in any serious manner the Minister's task, something which we, as spokespersons in Opposition, would like to do.

Miss Quill

At the outset I want to pay tribute to the Minister for Justice on what is, coincidentally, the first anniversary of the foundation of this Coalition Government and also of his appointment as Minister. Throughout the year he has rightly received praise from all quarters on his performance as Minister for Justice. I might express the hope that in the years ahead in the lifetime of this Government he will continue to build on that success. I have no doubt at all but that he will.

The Minister faces an onerous task. Over the past 12 months we had ample evidence of the major strengths and weaknesses of our criminal justice system. In relation to the strengths, the Garda, in particular, have excelled their previous proud record and time and time again have confronted dangerous, armed criminals successfully. I should like to pay them due tribute on the courage they have displayed and their dedication to duty.

While on the subject of the Garda Síochána I want to congratulate the Minister on the steps he has taken to ensure that 1,000 additional gardaí will be provided within a three-year period. That is a very positive move on his part. I would urge him to take all necessary steps to ensure that these additional gardaí are deployed on our city streets, within our communities, particularly in built-up urban areas, where they can best assist in the war against crime and where they can act as major agents in the early detection and prevention of crime. That is where they can best serve the community.

I am also pleased to note that steps have been taken finally to recruit 250 additional civilian clerical staff in order to release gardaí who have been tied up for years on work that was not proper to them at all. While much had been said on that issue over the years, it was not until this year that action was taken — another matter that pleases me enormously.

The overall area of justice, law reform and the fight against crime has been accorded priority by the Progressive Democrats since the foundation of our party. It was only natural that on the negotiation of the joint Programme for Government we were particularly pleased to incorporate solid commitments on action in relation to law reform. We have witnessed some of the positive consequences of that programme in recent weeks with the passage of legislation abolishing the death penalty. Having said that, I would be the first to admit that the pace of progress has been uneven and, in many instances, much too slow. Many outstanding reforms remain to be tackled. I have no doubt at all that in the course of the coming year the pace of reform will be intensified and quickened. I would urge the Minister to ensure that this is brought about. In particular there is need to tackle major issues such as the codification of our criminal law, the necessity for which daily becomes clearer. Far too much of our criminal law is disgracefully outdated. For example, the major legislation on offences against the person is 129 years old and the major statute on offences against property 74 years old. If action is not taken soon we shall find ourselves in the ridiculous position in which we will face into the 21st century with legislation properly belonging to the 19th century.

There are two matters I want to address in particular in the time available to me. One is the law in relation to bail, addressed in some detail by Deputy McCartan, and in a thoughtful manner. There was one point he made with which I thoroughly agree. He recommended a measure which ought and can be taken in advance of any constitutional amendment, that is, the forfeiture of bail moneys. When a person out on bail commits another serious crime, particularly one of armed robbery, the courts should be empowered to automatically and immediately seize that bail money. This would have a salutory effect.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is not allowing any latitude by way of chivalry. I must inform the Deputy that her time is up.

Miss Quill

There were a number of other matters I would certainly have liked to address. I might request the Minister to address himself in particular to the problems occasioned by uninsured drivers on our roads. There is another measure which could easily be implemented — again without any major discussion and one I would recommend — which is that drivers of uninsured vehicles ought have their vehicles impounded there and then and not be permitted to reclaim them until they can produce a valid insurance certificate and pay the appropriate fine. The Victorians were able to do so with regard to wandering animals. Surely we can do so in relation to uninsured drivers causing such havoc in so many ways to upright, lawabiding citizens.

Mr. Flanagan

I have been flabbergasted at the contribution of the spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats, particularly her initial preface of congratulation to the Minister for Justice on a job well done. This is another example of a script utilised for this House. There are the scripts for party conferences in Galway, perhaps the most important ones emanating from progressive democracy in the Law Library. It all smacks of gross hypocrisy. I would hope that Deputy Quill and her party colleagues would reflect on the contributions of former Deputy Colley and indeed her Cabinet colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Harney, on what they had to say on matters pertaining to justice and law reform when on this side of the House for a short period between the years 1987 and 1989.

As all previous speakers have said, the time available does not allow us deal adequately with the many matters warranting attention. Indeed, it is ironic that over the past four or five weeks it was the Minister for Justice, wearing his communications hat, who ensured that this Estimate, like others, would be subjected to a meaningless debate in so far as time is concerned.

I might address myself to one topic: the fact that the legal aid shambles continues. In spite of Dáil motions of pledges by the Minister, promises on the part of his predecessor, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and the resignations of the chairman and board members of the Legal Aid Board in February last, the crisis has escalated. The Government have consistently refused to acknowledge the problem obtaining within this service while tens of thousands of our citizens are denied access to legal services. The fact of the matter is that genuine cases will never reach the law courts because of the inadequacies of the legal aid system. Last December the Minister for Justice announced a package, including the appointment of additional staff to the Legal Aid Board — seven solicitors and 13 administrative staff. This is repeated verbatim on the final page of the Minister's introductory remarks which he was unable to read in the House. The Minister has admitted that nothing has changed in spite of those resignations, the longer queues and, more particularly, the ever increasing numbers of people attempting to avail of legal aid as a consequence of the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act of 1989, an Act that would never have seen the light of day were it not for the contributions of the Fine Gael benches. The fundamental weakness is lack of funds. It is shameful that the Minister for Justice remains silent and inactive on this issue.

There are lengthy waiting lists at the 12 full-time centres throughout the country with average delays running from six weeks in some of the Dublin ones to two or three months in the rural ones. The centre in Mullingar is closed. The centre in Portlaoise has ceased operating since March 1989. The system needs an urgent cash injection and the Minister for Justice must stand accused for inactivity in this regard.

The Legal Aid Board have filled a number of positions but difficulty has arisen in so far as the bad public profile and the stress-laden working conditions render the position of legal aid solicitor most unattractive. Again the Minister must stand accused as far as the bad public profile of these positions is concerned. Barristers who assist the legal aid centres in the higher courts are being paid on a scale which is far less than operates outside the legal aid centres. That again is leading towards the creation of a two-tier system and that is certainly not desirable.

Eighty per cent of cases being handled through the legal aid centres are family law matters. Since the passing of the 1989 Act there has been a huge increase in demand for legal aid. These cases are only beginning to become manifest now. The problems of the future will be even greater. Laws are introduced into this House to benefit society and law reform is meaningless without proper access to redress. The concept of equality before the law rings hollow in the light of the present shambles, and the Minister for Justice stands accused.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you for your co-operation in the matter of time. Deputy Noel Dempsey has five minutes maximum.

Mr. Dempsey

I take the opportunity of speaking on the Estimates in order to make one or two points. I note the important legislation that the Minister has passed in relation to the abolition of the death penalty. This legislation has been sought for a considerable length of time. It has been sought over the terms of many Governments. None of them did anything about it, and the Minister deserves to be commended for taking action on that at last.

I would also like to commend the Minister on the programme he has started for the recruitment of extra gardaí and on providing additional resources for the Garda for overtime, equipment and communications. Already the effects of the recent batch of recruits working in the city can be seen and has been acknowledged by everybody including many groups outside this House who have been calling for years for increased crime fighting sources.

In regard to the reorganisation of Garda resources in the constituency of Meath, there is a particular problem. The same could be said for Kildare and Wicklow which are adjacent to the Dublin Metropolitan area. Maybe because the policing in Dublin has become so much more effective, we are suffering from an overspill of crime which is based in Dublin. Places like Dunboyne, Ashbourne, Dunshaughlin and Kilcock are now being hit by criminal gangs from Dublin because they are so close to Dublin. I would ask the Minister, if he has not already addressed this, to have discussions with the Garda with a view to reorganising the situation to increase the Garda strength in the areas adjacent to Dublin so that this problem that has arisen over the last number of years can be tackled.

In regard to Garda and Garda time, I would make one other suggestion. It seems that an inordinate amount of Garda time is taken up with matters related to road traffic, insurance, weights, parking etc. throughout the country. Instead of having a road traffic corps within the Garda we should have a separate road traffic corps separate altogether from the Garda to deal with matters relating to traffic, roads and transport. The whole area of road traffic control is becoming much more complex. There are EC directives in regard to weights and measures. There is the problem of uninsured drivers and people who do not pay their tax. All of these areas take up valuable Garda time. Some consideration should be given to allowing the Garda to get on with the major job of security.

Mr. Durkan

In the short time available to me I would first like to congratulate the Garda on the manner in which they successfully apprehended the bank robbers who carried out the raid in Leixlip just a week ago. I would especially repeat what has been said in this House on many occasions in relation to bail laws. One of the things that emanates from all this is the absolute necessity to change the bail laws in the case of serious crime. There is no way that a person attempting to hold up a bank or any other financial institution using firearms or other weapons should expect to get bail. If a constitutional amendment is required, let us have it as a matter of urgency.

At Question Time the other day the Minister correctly indicated that since 1984 there had been a drop in the number of crimes committed by people while on bail. The problem now is that there is a hard core of people involved. I would have to disagree entirely with Deputy Maureen Quill's suggestion that bail would be confiscated in those cases. I do not think that would be a deterrent at all, but would set up a whole new industry. I call on the Minister, as a matter of urgency, to look at that situation and try to meet the requirements as set down by my colleague, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.

I would like to address two other aspects that the Minister might concern himself with. One is in relation to the scanning devices that are now available. When persons involved in full-time crime set themselves up, the first thing they set themselves up with is good transport, the next is fire power and, after that, communications. There are readily available on the open market devices about the size of a pocket calculator with which the criminal can tune in to Garda patrol cars and, I am told, in certain circumstances, they have been able to cut through the scrambling system. I do not know whether that is possible. A constituent of mine has, however, brought it to my attention that he can, at any time, get a device which can, without any difficulty at all, link into all radio and telephone calls anywhere in the country. They have been able to link in and obtain classified information in relation to directions, locations and so on. This is happening. I am told this by a law abiding citizen who knows what he is talking about because he is involved in the electronics industry.

I have already put down two parliamentary questions to the Minister on this issue. We all accept that it is illegal to intercept telephone or radio conversations. The point at issue is how to control it, and that is at the point of sale. We should make sure that those devices do not get into the country. I have information to the effect that a car used by subversives or somebody involved in crime was found recently in a certain constituency and was shown to contain a gun and one of these scanning devices. If those devices are being used to that extent, they have now become a necessity as far as the average criminal is concerned. Information is important to criminals. There is no earthly reason those devices should be allowed to be sold in the way they are. There is a licensing system. There are people who are entitled to have them, but people who have them for illegal purposes or people who are subversives have no right to have them or to have access to them. I would ask the Minister to ensure, during the next session of the Dáil, or before that by order, that such devices are not available for sale, and the way to control them is at the point of entry.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Burke)

As has been mentioned by nearly all speakers, the time is very limited and Deputies will understand if I do not reply to each individual point that has been made. It would be impossible to do so in five minutes, but I can assure them a careful note has been taken of the points they made and I will see what can be done in relation to them. The concern of the Deputies in relation to the pressure on my family and on my life generally in relation to carrying the two portfolios of Justice and Communications is appreciated. I can assure them I am fully capable and committed to ensuring that my responsibility in these two areas is met in the fullest way.

As far as the Estimate for Justice is concerned, the key area of justice is security for our people on the streets, in their places of work and in their homes. I appreciate, on behalf of the Garda, the expressions of support for what they are doing and how they are going about their task. It is vitally important that Members of this House are seen to be supportive of the Garda. As was mentioned, they are putting their lives on the line on a daily basis on our behalf, and on behalf of the citizens of the country. Last Friday there was in incident which resulted in an unfortunate loss of life and the Garda were there defending our citizens.

I thank Deputy Quill for her expression of support for the extra gardaí who are being recruited and the 250 civilians who are being appointed to release gardaí from clerical duties and let them out on the streets to do work for which they are trained. They are not trained as clerical officers but as law enforcement officers and guardians of the peace. It is my intention in the period ahead to ensure that we have extra recruits and that the gardaí are out on the streets where they should be rather than in offices.

On the question of prisons, it is no harm to repeat that since becoming Minister for Justice, I have given particular attention to improvements in the prison service. No administration since the foundation of the State has done as much in such a short time in relation to the prison system. For example, a sentence review group has been established to bring together the best expert advice available on complex problems such as prison deaths and infectious diseases. Wheatfield prison has been brought fully into operation. St. Patrick's Institution, and the women's prison, are to be completely refurbished and a new unit is being provided to cater for offenders with special medical needs.

The Fair Trade Commission's report on their study into restrictive practices in the legal profession has been published by my colleague, Deputy O'Malley, Minister for Industry and Commerce, to whom the matter was addressed. Submissions on the commission's recommendations have been invited from the public before 7 September, and therefore there is no long-fingering of the matter. The Government have made no decision on specific recommendations in advance of the public debate on the issues involved. Pending completion of that stage and subsequent decisions by the Government on the commission's recommendations, it is premature to make a commitment about implementing the commission's recommendations or to talk in hard and fast terms as to how the recommendations will be implemented and by whom. As regards who is responsible, the matter transcends two Departments. For example, the consumer aspect is the responsibility of the Department of Industry and Commerce while primary responsibility for legislative control over the legal profession rests, as it will, with the Minister for Justice.

In relation to the Garda Complaints Board, the board staffing level was originally set at five and was then increased to six. I have secured additional resources to bring the number to ten at this stage. I acknowledge there is a problem in that area but we are trying to come to grips with it. Everything cannot be done at once because resources are scarce and it is a matter of cutting the cloth according to measure.

As far as the Land Registry are concerned, I can assure Deputies we are allocating 20 per cent more money to the Land Registry this year and they will also get additional staff. Most important of all, there is a new active management in place. A new registrar was appointed in recent months. She is doing an excellent job and has reorganised the whole management structure of the Land Registry. I appreciate the Deputies concern in relation to delays but I can assure them the registrar is coming to grips with them.

As far as the question of law reform is concerned, we have already brought a number of Bills before the House such as the Larceny Bill, the Bill dealing with the death penalty, which was referred to by Deputy Quill, the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Bill, the Prohibition of Incitement to Racial, Religious or National Hatred Bill, the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill, the Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Bill and the Statute of Limitations Bill, but I acknowledge that there is much more to be done in the whole area of law reform. As Deputies are aware, we held the Presidency of the EC for the last six months.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tá an t-ám istigh.

Mr. Burke

Extra resources are becoming available and I can assure the House that extra staff will be appointed to the law reform area during the summer.

Question put: "That the following Estimates for the Public Service for the year ending 31 December 1990 be agreed: Revised Estimates, Vote 32 — Agriculture and Food; Vote 35 — Tourism and Transport; Vote 39 — Foreign Affairs; Vote 40 — International Co-operation; Vote 26 — Office of the Minister for Education; Vote 27 — First-Level Education; Vote 28 — Second-Level and Further Education; Vote 29 — Third-Level and Further Education; Vote 25 — Environment; Vote 43 — Energy; Vote 19 — Office of the Minister for Justice; Vote 20 — Garda Síochána; Vote 21 — Prisons; Vote 22 — Courts; Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds and Vote 24 — Charitable Donations and Bequests."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 67.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Mattie.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Connolly, Ger.
• Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cullimore, Séamus.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond J.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• O'Toole, Martin Joe.
• Power, Seán.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hillery, Brian.
• Hilliard, Colm.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kelly, Laurence.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lyons, Denis.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, Jim.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• Morley, P.J.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick West).
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Roche, Dick.
• Smith, Michael.
• Stafford, John.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Ahearn, Therese.
• Barnes, Monica.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Belton, Louis J.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, John.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Finucane, Michael.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lee, Pat.
• Lowry, Michael.
• McCartan, Pat.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Paul.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Gerry.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Reynolds, Gerry.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.

Question declared carried.