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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 13 Jul 1990

Vol. 401 No. 7

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 2, 3, 16, 7, 8-12, inclusive, and 17. It is also proposed that the following arrangements shall apply in the case of No. 2 and in the case of No. 3.

(a) the Seanad amendments shall be debated together, not more than ten minutes being allotted to such debate, and the proceedings on the amendments shall be brought to a conclusion by one question; and

(b) speakers shall be confined to a member of the Government or Minister of State and a spokesperson for each of the Groups — as defined in Standing Order 89 (1) — in Opposition, who shall restrict themselves to a brief comment in each case.

It is further proposed that Nos. 16, 7 and the Supplementary Estimate concerned and 8-12, inclusive, shall be decided without debate and by one question in each case.

It is further proposed that at the conclusion of business today, the Dáil shall adjourn until 12 noon on Wednesday 24 October 1990.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the arrangements for dealing with Nos. 2 and 3 agreed to?

Proinsias De Rossa

No. The business as proposed today is an extraordinary example of the kind of incompetence we have to come to expect from the Government benches at this stage. Last week we were told that the business for today would be the Insurance Bill. We are now faced with a range of items today to be dealt with, mostly without delay. We have amendments under Nos. 2 and 3 from the Seanad which we support but we are only being allowed——

An Ceann Comhairle

May I dispose of that matter first and go on to the items that you oppose, Deputy? I want to go through them seriatim. You say you agree with my proposal that the arrangements for dealing with Nos. 2 and 3 be agreed to.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am explaining why I do not agree with that proposal.

The Taoiseach

On a point of order, may I just point out that these arrangements were agreed last night by the Whip of the Deputy's Party?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. N. Treacy

Most definitely.

The Taoiseach

I know that Deputy De Rossa was away all week and, therefore, he cannot be fully up to date. I do not think we can do our business if the arrangements made with the Whips are opposed in this way capriciously.

Proinsias De Rossa

These arrangements were not agreed by the Whip of The Workers' Party. In fact, the Whip of The Workers' Party came into the House last night to prevent these kinds of arrangements being made and being done on the nod by the Whip of the Government party——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to dissuade Deputy De Rossa from making a speech.

Proinsias De Rossa

——who tried to push through an arrangement which had not been agreed by our Whip.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to dispose of the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

I want to oppose these proposals. Ten minutes is not sufficient time in which to deal with the amendments which are proposed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Then I should put the question. The question is: "That the arrangements for dealing with Nos. 2 and 3 be agreed to".

Proinsias De Rossa

I spent more time——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will put the question again lest it was not heard.

Question: "That the arrangements for dealing with Nos. 2 and 3 be agreed to" put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must now ask: are the arrangements for dealing with items Nos. 16, 7 and 8 to 12, inclusive, agreed to?

Proinsias De Rossa

No, not agreed. Sir, if you had allowed me to continue to make my point I could have dealt with them all at the same time. Item No. 16 proposes the approval of 20 Estimates without debate. During the past week we dealt with a number of Estimates, when most speakers had a number of minutes only in which to deal with the fairly detailed and serious disbursal of moneys by this House. It is not acceptable that we should arrive here this morning faced with an agenda expecting us to rubberstamp 20 Estimates without any debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point effectively.

Proinsias De Rossa

Could I finish my point, a Cheann Comhairle, and then you can——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must bring his remarks to a conclusion.

Proinsias De Rossa

At the same time, a Cheann Comhairle, it is also proposed that we adjourn today until 24 October next. I am suggesting that it would make more sense, if this House is to have any credibility, that we meet here next week to deal with the business.

(Interruptions.)

Proinsias De Rossa

So long as the Deputies opposite are here——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question——

Proinsias De Rossa

I will not allow Deputies opposite to turn this place into——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question: "That the proposal for dealing with items Nos. 16, 7 and 8 to 12, inclusive, be agreed to". The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle, we were intending to move an amendment to the Order of Business and asking you to put it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy. Surely you ought to have put your amendment earlier. I again put the question: "That the proposal for dealing with items Nos. 16, 7 and 8 to 12, inclusive, be agreed to". I think the question is carried.

Mr. McCartan

Vótáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the question "That the proposal for dealing with items Nos. 16, 7 and 8 to 12, inclusive, be agreed to", will those who are demanding a division please rise in their places? Deputies Byrne, De Rossa, Gilmore, McCartan and Rabbitte rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Deputies have risen, in accordance with Standing Order No. 59, the names of the Deputies dissenting will be entered in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Question declared carried.

Mr. J. Bruton

Regarding the proposal that the Dáil should adjourn until 12 noon on 24 October 1990, my party must oppose this proposal. We are of the view that, while it is necessary during the summer recess to conduct some repairs to this Chamber which necessitate it being vacated for some time, there is such a huge volume of outstanding legislation proposed or promised by the Government that the appropriate course for the Government to have taken would have been to have presented us with resolutions to approve the Second Stage of this legislation and refer it to special committees of this House so that it could be processed and the work of the House could continue during the recess.

I refer in particular to the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, the absence of which means fishing in this country is illegal; the Land Commission Bill, which has not been introduced; the Radiological Protection Bill, which is very important from the point of view of nuclear radiation and which has not been processed; the Marine Institute Bill and — legislation that has not even been introduced, but ought to have been — the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, which was specifically promised when the Government rejected a similar Bill from this side of the House; the Roads Authority Bill; the Colleges Bill; the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill. All of this legislation could have been taken——

An Ceann Comhairle

I trust the Deputy will be brief.

Mr. J. Bruton

——if the Government had agreed either to a shorter recess or to the referral of this legislation to committees of the House. Therefore, we oppose this order.

Mr. Spring

I wish to make some brief remarks in relation to the ordering of the Adjournment of the Dáil to 24 October. As Deputy Bruton has said, a great deal of legislation has not been dealt with. I will be suggesting to the Taoiseach that we should resume in mid-September. I realise there is an amount of work to be done on this Chamber, but I will be putting it to the Taoiseach that a period of eight weeks from now would have facilitated that. The work has to be done. I would also say to the Taoiseach that the manner in which we have been conducting our business for the last three or four weeks has been unsatisfactory, I would say, from both the point of view of the Members of the House and indeed, of the members of the staff of this House. For many people it has meant 19 to 20 hour days. It is a totally unsatisfactory way to do our business. I would suggest to the Taoiseach that we should resume in early September and possibly have a week's adjournment to coincide with the mid-term breaks in schools and otherwise.

It is unfortunate that the Estimates have had to be dealt with in the manner in which we have had to deal with them because they deserve far more detailed scrutiny than we have been able to give them. I propose, a Cheann Comhairle, an amendment to the order that we resume on 12 September 1990.

Proinsias De Rossa

I have made a number of points already in relation to the business that has been dealt with here today.

An Ceann Comhairle

You have already commented on that.

Proinsias De Rossa

A Cheann Comhairle, you did not interrupt the other two speakers. I would appreciate it if you did not interrupt me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should keep to the date of return.

Proinsias De Rossa

I was proceeding to say, a Cheann Comhairle, that it does not make sense for the other two Opposition parties to have agreed the business here today without debate and at the same time object to the long recess. It defies logic not to support——

Mr. Howlin

Your Whip agreed.

Mr. McCartan

He did not agree to it.

The Taoiseach

It is only hypocrisy.

Proinsias De Rossa

I beg your pardon?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is only being hypocritical.

Proinsias De Rossa

You are an expert on that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has already registered his opposition to the Adjournment date and he is now engaging in repetition. Will he be particularly brief?

Proinsias De Rossa

Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour have spoken on this. I ask your protection in the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will give it, Deputy, but I cannot permit repetition of the kind you are engaging in.

Proinsias De Rossa

My point is, a Cheann Comhairle, that it would make more sense for this House to come back in the first week in September or, indeed, as Deputy Spring suggests, in mid-September to deal with the very important legislation that still requires urgent attention. I would draw attention to two specific ones, the Rape (Amendment) Bill and the Child Care Bill. The Child Care Bill, which I have referred to here before, is now five years before this House and is still not completed. I would urge, therefore, that all of the House here agree that we come back at the very latest in mid-September.

The Taoiseach

I just want to say that I do not really take these protestations seriously. On this occasion we are following more or less normal practice, but I want to make the point that the Office of Public Works do want this Chamber and they want it up to the end of October. Under some pressure from us they have agreed to try to facilitate us by 24 October. There is major reconstruction involved. It is not repairs, as Deputy Bruton seems to think. We have to prepare the Chamber for television. All Deputies want that and the public wants it. The Office of Public works have a major job to do to get the House ready for television in the autumn. There is that factor.

I would like also to point out that the House has done a great deal of business since the beginning of the year. Twenty one Bills were passed in 1990 and there were 12 before that in 1989. Since we returned last summer we have processed 33 pieces of legislation through the House and that is a reasonable programme of work.

Mr. Rabbitte

Rushed through the House.

The Taoiseach

So I do not take these protestations seriously.

Mr. Rabbitte

You do not take the House seriously.

The Taoiseach

I think they are hollow and I think that the Opposition parties would be aghast if we were, for one moment, to agree with them.

Mr. McCartan

Try it.

Mr. J. Bruton

As Ronald Reagan would say, make my day. Call our bluff.

The Taoiseach

This is the last day in the House.

Mr. J. Bruton

You are going up the hill, now go to the top.

Mr. Barry

We know he is bluffing.

The Taoiseach

This is the last day before the summer recess. Let us end on a reasonable note of good humour and co-operation.

Mr. J. Bruton

The guillotine is your form of humour.

The Taoiseach

If you have manners, will you try to display them now, please? We have all had a fairly tough time since Christmas. We have had to carry the burden of the Presidency and try to conduct a fairly major programme of legislation and business in this House. I believe that we should now adjourn for a decent summer recess and come back refreshed in the autumn and get on with our business.

Mr. J. Bruton

Would the Taoiseach agree it is an autumn recess as well as a summer recess?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the motion for the Adjournment of the Dáil the question is: "That the dates proposed to be deleted stand."

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 63.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Howlin and Ferris.

Question declared carried.

Mr. J. Bruton

Sir, in regard to the decision that has just been taken, without the support of the Opposition parties, could the Taoiseach give an assurance that the House will be able to meet in this Chamber, if not elsewhere, on 24 October 1990? The contract for the renovation works to facilitate the televising of the proceedings has not yet been signed and has remained in the Department of Finance for the past month without response and, in the absence of a signed contract, it will not be possible for the work to commence next week, as it should. Will the Taoiseach give us an assurance that we will, in fact, be able to resume in this Chamber on the day, which is a long way from now, that he proposed and to which the House agreed?

The Taoiseach

I am very glad that Deputy Bruton now accepts that this work is necessary.

Mr. J. Bruton

I always accepted that it was necessary.

The Taoiseach

I can be reasonably confident that the work will be completed by mid-October.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach's reply that he is reasonably confident is a less firm assurance than I would wish for.

The Taoiseach

I am sorry for your troubles, Deputy.

Mr. J. Bruton

I can see from the hyper-sensitivity of the Taoiseach's interventions yesterday and today that he must be having some troubles himself.

The Taoiseach

I want to tell the Deputy that the beaches of Kerry are beckoning and there is no happier man in Ireland today than myself.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach might go a little further when he is at it.

Mr. Sheehan

There are a few nice beaches in West Cork too.

Mr. J. Bruton

I would not offer the Taoiseach a return ticket.

Mr. Spring

I will offer the Taoiseach the beaches of south Kerry as I want the beaches of north Kerry. With regard to the last item, "Glenroe" had better watch out with the televising of the Dáil coming on stream.

On a more serious note, given the perception that the delay in starting talks on Northern Ireland is because of a problem caused by the Irish Government, may I ask the Taoiseach if he will avail of the opportunity of giving a briefing to the Leaders of the Opposition parties on the outcome of today's meeting in London?

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise on the Order of Business, Deputy.

Mr. Spring

If I may, Sir, I will put this very briefly because I will not have an opportunity of raising the matter again. We have sought to be very helpful on this very difficult subject of the Anglo-Irish talks and, perhaps, the Taoiseach will give the Leaders of the Opposition a briefing before the summer holidays?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter may not be dealt with now unless the Taoiseach wishes to intervene.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate the restraint and the responsible and co-operative attitude of the Opposite parties and I will keep that in mind.

Mr. Howlin

We have already had discussion on the number of items ordered for today. We have had ongoing discussions among the Whips on item No. 13 on today's Order Paper and the latest word I had yesterday was that the matter was with the Taoiseach. Has the Taoiseach considered the consensus proposal coming from all the Opposition parties to establish a committee on crime?

The Taoiseach

As you know, a Cheann Comhairle, I have dealt with this on a number of occasions. The process of events was a bit unfortunate. We brought a proposal to the House to establish the committee, but unfortunately, the agreements which had been made about that were not adhered to when the matter came before the House and I had no alternative but to withdraw the proposal.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is a sham.

The Taoiseach

I want to make it clear that this committee would deal with very sensitive and important matters such as the security of the State and the administration of justice which are very delicate and sensitive areas. It is very necessary that a committee of this type should be set up in complete agreement between the parties because of the subject matters with which they would deal. If that can be agreed I am prepared to establish the committee. I believe it is necessary that we should all be of one mind as to the work they should do, how they will proceed and how the fundamental interests of the State and the Minister for Justice will be protected and preserved.

Mr. Howlin

May I say——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the matter now, Deputy Howlin.

Mr. Howlin

I understand what you were saying, a Cheann Comhairle, but——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has allowed this matter to be raised time and time again recently.

Mr. Howlin

I understand what you were saying but there is a consensus proposal from the Opposition side. We put forward the name of somebody of great integrity to chair the; committee and who would deal sensitively with all the issues the Taoiseach has raised. The view of the Government Chief Whip is that Deputy Liam Kavanagh would be such a person and would command the respect of all sides of the House. It would be feasible to go ahead with that proposal——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given Deputy Howlin quite some latitude and he may not proceed to make a speech now. I am proceeding to call Deputy Madeline Taylor-Quinn.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

On the Order of Business, may I ask the Taoiseach if a decision was made yesterday in relation to the air-sea search and rescue service? I understand the Minister for the Marine was putting proposals to the Government yesterday; he said so in the House on Wednesday night. Is the Taoiseach in a position to outline to the House whether a decision was made and, if so, the nature of the decision?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not Question Time.

Mr. J. Bruton

There will be no Question Time for four months.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Stagg.

Mr. Stagg

We were promised legislation to abolish the rod licence during this term. I accept that this legislation will not be introduced now but can I get an assurance from the Taoiseach that it will be brought in at an early date during the next term? Can he give us an assurance that there will be no prosections under the old Act during the summer recess?

The Taoiseach

It is the intention to bring in the legislation during the next session.

Mr. Stagg

Can I get an assurance on the second point I raised——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has already put that question. I am calling Deputy Garland.

Mr. Stagg

I did not get an answer to the second part of my question. Can I persist——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not persist in opposition to the Chair.

Mr. Stagg

I am not opposing the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Garland has been called and will be heard.

Mr. Stagg

I am not in any way opposing the Chair. May I ask——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may put a very brief question and then sit down.

Mr. Stagg

There is a danger that over-zealous officials may insist on implementing the old Act which we intend abolishing. Can I get an assurance that this will not happen?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg, I have been on my feet for some time and the Deputy has ignored the Chair.

Mr. Stagg

I presume the Taoiseach can——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Garland.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Garland

I want to remind the Minister for Justice that there is unfinished business in Castlebar in relation to the incident on 6 June. Will the Minister ensure that people are charged with the very serious assault which took place there——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise now, Deputy Garland. Deputy John Browne, Carlow-Kilkenny, is offering.

Mr. Garland

Will the Minister say what he is going to do about this very important issue?

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Flynn)

The Deputy will not be invited there on his holidays.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that he is not involved in any psychological warfare and is not trying to get us out of our offices with all the noise in the College of Science?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a pertinent question and is an order.

The Taoiseach

Anything to do with my psychology interests me. Will the Deputy repeat the question?

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): This is a very serious question and I am glad the Taoiseach asked me to repeat it. There is so much noise in the College of Science that it is rumoured it is psychological warfare on the part of the Taoiseach who organised the drills to get us out of our offices.

The Taoiseach

I am glad the Deputy raised that issue because sometimes to get away from the noise over there I escape to here, but the noise here is worse.

Mr. Spring

You have heard nothing yet.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

If no decision has been made by the Government in relation to the air-sea search and rescue service will he give an assurance that he will have the matter considered next week and will put in place the recommendations of the Doherty report?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Quinn.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

Has the Taoiseach anything to say on this very important matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to Item No. 2.

Barr