Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Nov 1990

Vol. 402 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) (Amendment) Bill, 1990: Second Stage.

Mr. J. Bruton

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The position is that vocational education teachers are the only group of officers in the local authority service still appointed by politicians. It seems that it is quite foolish that, for example, a county manager who makes major decisions of a public policy kind is not appointed by politicians because it is considered that he should be above and apart from politics while at the same time politicians are involved in appointing somebody to a post of responsibility in a vocational school where their suitability over that of another candidate has no public policy elements; it is simply a matter of personnel quality judgment. I believe the job of politicians, be it at European, national or local level, is to decide issues of policy and with regard to very important appointments at the very top of a service to sanction appointments which have been properly prepared by others. For example, the appointment of a secretary of a Department is no longer the sole prerogative of a Minister; the secretary of a Department is appointed by the Government having been interviewed by an independent interview body and the Government always appoint the person recommended. That is the proper distinction between policy and personnel decisions.

It is very unhealthy that teachers in vocational schools who wish to be promoted either to the principalship or vice-principalship or even a post of responsibility should feel in the final analysis that the decision whether or not they are appointed rests with politicians. I should say that in the vast majority of cases — and I mean the vast majority, 99.99 per cent of appointments — the appointments made are the correct ones and are made without any influence being brought to bear which ought not be brought to bear on an educational appointment but, notwithstanding all those considerations, the very fact that politicians make the final decision does lead to suggestions, perhaps on the part of disappointed candidates, that there were some influences in the background which ought not to have been there. Most of the time these inferences would be completely inaccurate but if people are disappointed with regard to any appointment they are seeking they tend to look around for explanations. As long as politicians are involved in appointments perhaps people will have a tendency to look for political explanations even though they may be entirely incorrect in this. There will always be a tendency to look for political explanations for a failure to be appointed as long as politicians continue to be involved.

It is also the case in respect of most appointments, for instance in Aer Lingus and other places, that canvassing will disqualify but this is not the case with regard to these appointments. I have heard suggestions from the teachers' unions, where interview boards involving politicians discuss the characteristics of candidates, that information comes out about how particular people did at interview and how they comported themselves and so on, because naturally politicians, being in public life, come under pressure to explain their decisions more so than those who are not in public life. They may well explain particular decisions inadvertently and with the best intentions in the world, by making reference to how people performed at interview and so on but this can prove to be very hurtful and unnecessarily hurtful. This does not happen in the overwhelming majority of cases but the very fact that there is a possibility of it happening is a reason why it should be eliminated.

I also believe that those in the vocational education system who may have particular political views which are not popular or are of a minority kind might feel that proclaiming those views publicly and getting involved in politics in a way which brings their political views to public notice could harm their educational career. Again, I accept that in the overwhelming majority of cases there is no danger of this happening but because there is even a possibility that people might think it would happen it is something which should be eliminated.

I propose, a Cheann Comhairle, to share my time, if I may, with Deputy Deenihan.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

I did refer to the fact that 99.99 per cent of appointments are made perfectly properly but there were two examples, the 0.01 per cent, where the appointments were not properly made. I am not going to give the details or the names and so forth but I have them and if the Minister or any other Deputy wants me to show them to them I will. In 1987 a particular person was nominated for appointment by the selection board, which is an independent body, but the vocational education committee in question at a subsequent meeting sought to overturn the recommendation of the selection board and appoint instead a person who was in fact a member of the vocational education committee itself in place of the person recommended by the selection board. It was only prevented from going into full effect by vigorous action on the part of the trade union representing the teachers concerned. To my mind teachers should not have to take industrial action to prevent something of that kind happening.

There was another example in 1979-80 and I should say that the cases I am citing did not involve the same political party. Different parties were involved on the two occasions concerned so I am not seeking to suggest in any way that one party are more prone to do this than the other. During 1979-80 a person was interviewed and recommended for appointment as vice-principal in a particular school. The interview board was composed of four people and the person recommended was in fact a member of the vocational education committee as was his mother-in-law but neither of them declared their interest in the appointment in or after the interview. He was appointed and I do not see anything wrong with that but it is unfortunate a situation was created where somebody like that found himself in that position. As long as a person is a politician and a member of a vocational education committee they should not find themselves in a position where they could be faced with a conflict of interest if seeking a promotion within the vocational education committee. One way of avoiding such a conflict of interest would be to remove from the vocational education committee any say in the appointment so that if a member of a vocational education committee, who happens also to be a teacher within the vocational education committee system, wants to seek appointment there will be no conflict of interest, there will be no invidious comparisons, there will be no suggestion that if there was an interest it should have been declared. For the sake of politicians this invidious choice should be removed from their hands. I know there are some who will say this represents in some sense a diminution of the proper responsibilities of local government. I do not believe that is the case. I believe that those involved in local government whether in a vocational education committee or in any other place in local government should feel that they have sufficient to do to decide issues of education policy within their own vocational education committee, to decide about the policies to be pursued by the schools under their care. I do not believe that serving politicians necessarily know which is the best individual to fill a particular teaching post within a particular school. Our training as politicians at national or local level, does not give us any confidence to make decisions about whether a person is a good teacher. That is not what we are trained for. Those who should make decisions about who is a good teacher or who is a good person to exercise responsibility in a school are people who are actually involved and have practical experience in education and are involved in the selection process because of that experience. I know some members of the vocational education committee happen to have practical educational experience but that is simply an accident of their appointment. There may be many vocational education committees where there are few, if any, people who have any immediate and direct practical experience of making educational judgments.

I should like to stress again that appointing a teacher to a particular position in a vocational school is an educational, and not a political matter. I do not believe that, therefore, this system should continue. Arguments may be made, perhaps by the Minister — at least such arguments were made on a previous occasion — that, to involve the Local Appointments Commission in this process would be rather cumbersome. It might be said, for example, that while the Local Appointments Commission could deal with the number of applications that would come forward for, say, appointment to principalships in schools, to involve the commission — a national body — in appointments to lower positions of vice-principals or posts of responsibility would involve too much referring up to Dublin, so to speak, of decisions that should be taken at local level. That can be easily met if the Local Appointments Commission were to set up, under agreed criteria as to their conduct, local appointment panels in each region who would be there to make the appointments at local or regional level on behalf of the commission. The important thing is that they would be operating under rules, procedures and criteria laid down by an independent non-political body, such as the Local Appointments Commission, and not operating under a body like a vocational education committee who are necessarily a body in which politics plays its part. Politics should be involved in education policy making. I defend the continued involvement of politicians in decisions in vocational education committees where they are concerned with policy but not with personnel within individual schools.

The argument that this Bill would create a cumbersome process for decisions because so many decisions would have to be referred to Dublin can be refuted because it is possible to find a practical solution by establishing local panels. In any event the number of teachers to be appointed is not all that great and I am sure that practical solutions can be found to these problems.

I would stress that this Bill was introduced in 1989 in the last Dáil. On that occasion Second Stage was concluded and agreed unanimously with an undertaking by the Minister that she would, in due course, bring it forward for discussion on Committee Stage. She has not done so. I understand that she has come under some pressure to change what was an initially favourable position towards this legislation because it is suggested that some of the Fianna Fáil county councillors were among those who were most concerned at the fact that Fianna Fáil had entered into a Coalition with the Progressive Democrats and that in order to assuage their injured pride the Minister, among other concessions, would withdraw her tacit support for this legislation and continue to maintain the existing system whereby councillors would be involved in appointments of this kind. The Minister has not to my knowledge confirmed this to be the case. I hope it is not the case. Indeed, I hope that when the Minister does speak she will find it possible to accept this Bill. I make no claims that the drafting of this Bill is beyond all improvement. I am sure the Minister has available to her information about many practical problems that may arise in regard to having a system of appointment by a Local Appointments Commission, which is an independent non-political body, rather than by politicians. There may be many practical problems, only some of which I have adverted to and dealt with so far. If that is the case the sensible process for us to adopt here in this debate is to accept the Bill in principle on Second Stage and to deal with those practical problems by means of amendment on Committee Stage. All that I and the Teachers' Union of Ireland — they have publicly endorsed this Bill — are seeking is agreement from the Minister in principle to this legislation. We are confident that if she accepts it in principle he will, of course, make such amendments to it on Committee Stage as will make it entirely workable and remove any problems — I cannot anticipate any — she may have. If there are problems she has the ability to overcome them by means of Committee Stage amendments. On that basis I hope I will have convinced my colleagues in the House, the progressive Democrats who supported this legislation on the last occasion and who now form part of the Government and also, indeed, the Minister who accepted it on the last occasion as well as other parties and Members to go ahead and deal with this issue once and for all. The political appointment of teachers is not an issue that should be left undecided. We should deal with it and get it off the agenda and not go on agonising about it. I hope this occasion, Private Members' Time, will allow us do that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton is sharing his time with Deputy Deenihan.

Mr. Deenihan

In March 1989 Fine Gael proposed to Dáil Éireann that it adopt a Bill aimed at removing the appointment of vocational teachers from the political arena. Dáil Éireann adopted the Bill on Second Stage and in so doing endorsed the idea that the appointment of vocational teachers should be undertaken by an impartial body, such as the Local Appointments Commission.

The Bill was supported by the Labour Party, The Workers' Party, the Progressive Democrats and a number of Independent Deputies. If it was right to have the Local Appointments Commission appoint vocational teachers in March 1989 it is surely right now. I and my party would expect that those parties and Deputies who supported the Bill last year would again support it on this occasion. The only reason the matter was not progressed and the only reason my party have again found it necessary to propose this measure to Dáil Éireann is that the former Bill lapsed with the dissolution of the Dáil.

The Bill proposed here this evening seeks the right to right a wrong. It seeks to remove the suspicion of political interference from the appointment of vocational teachers. The Bill seeks to guarantee and endorse the profession of vocational teaching by ensuring that these teachers are appointed by a professional, competent and respected body such as the Local Appointments Commission. Vocational teachers are local authority officers. Every other category of local authority officer is appointed by the Local Appointments Commission. Why not vocational teachers?

The Local Appointments Commission was set up in 1926 by a Cumann na nGael Government to remove appointments of local authority officers from the political arena. It has worked well. I see no reason that it should not now be extended to the teaching area. It is anomalous that chief executive officers of vocational education committees are appointed by the commission but teachers are not.

Mr. J. Bruton

Hear, hear.

Mr. Deenihan

In many instances principals of colleges and schools have salaries equal to and comparable with CEOs, yet CEOs are appointed by the commission but not teachers. We must remove once and for all the taint or suspicion of political appointment from the appointment of teachers and we will do that by passing this Bill.

It has been suggested that removing the appointment of teachers from vocational education committees will weaken local democracy. The standing of vocational education committees and of teachers will be enhanced when their appointments are above suspicion as they would be if they were appointed by the Local Appointments Commission. This Government and all Governments over the past ten to 15 years, have sought to rationalise the provision of post-primary education. This is to be achieved by amalgamating vocational education committees and secondary schools in towns around the country by providing one school as opposed to two or three as at present. This is commendable. However, one of the major stumbling blocks to the rationalisation of schools is the appointment system in the vocational area. There is a reluctance on the part of secondary teachers to consider assimilation into the vocational education committees because they distrust and are suspicious of political interference with appointments.

I can give chapter and verse of appointments that were wrong but I do not intend to do so unless challenged to produce evidence. Then I would be compelled to justify my position by giving examples. I instance the necessity for this Bill by pointing to the fact that the Teachers' Union of Ireland, which represents teachers in vocational schools and colleges, have campaigned vigorously for the past 20 years to achieve reform of the appointment system along the lines Deputy Bruton proposes. What is a teacher who is politically active to do when he or she goes for promotion and finds a selection board composed of persons from an opposing political party? There will always be the suspicion in their mind if they do not get the job that politics entered into it. It is high time that we removed such suspicions from teachers' appointments.

All my party want is to remove the suspicion of political interference from appointments. We also want to ensure that interviews are conducted by persons with expertise and a knowledge of teaching so that the best appointments are made. We would like to restore the morale and standing of vocational education committees and teachers both of which have been affected by the present unfortunate system of appointment. It is our intention to accede to the views of the teachers as expressed through their union for a fair and impartial system of appointment by bringing forward this Bill. Should the House pass this Bill we will be prepared to sit down with all interested groups to determine the best alternative system of appointment under the auspices of the Local Appointments Commission. We will talk to the Teachers' Union of Ireland, school managements and parents and take into account their views concerning a new mode of appointment. We are even prepared to talk to the Minister.

What we are seeking is the first step on the road towards a new and better system of appointment the precise mechanics of which will be determined through consultation on Committee Stage. I appeal to all parties to join with us in taking this first essential step.

Minister for Education (Mrs. O'Rourke)

What are the arrangements concerning time for the rest of the speakers? Was it not originally 40 minutes for the movers?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Therefore, my half an hour commences from now instead of at 7.40 p.m. I have until 7.55 p.m. How much time has Deputy O'Shea?

An Ceann Comhairle

A half an hour is provided for each Member from now on.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Thank you. I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate. The House will be aware that a similar Bill was discussed in the House in February 1989, during the currency of the previous Dáil. At that time I set down the appointment procedures at present in operation for teachers in vocational education. I also pointed out that the particular regulations governing these appointments were drawn up in 1967 and amended in 1979.

I wish briefly to set out here what the appointment procedures are. All full-time posts are to be advertised. For appointment in second level schools eligible candidates are interviewed by a selection board consisting of five members — three nominees of the vocational education committee, one of the Irish Vocational Education Association and one nominee of the Minister for Education.

In Deputy Bruton's and Deputy Deenihan's submission great play was made of the fact that these boards were composed of politicians. I set out the regulations which, by law, must be obeyed. In second level schools the selection board consists of five people, three nominees of the vocational education committee, one of the IVEA — a very respectable organisation — and one nominee of the Minister for Education.

In the case of the regional technical colleges, the selection board consist of the chief executive officer, three other members of the board of management — at least one of whom is a vocational education committee member — and a nominee of the Minister. There is provision for short listing by the selection board where the number of applicants is excessive. It is clearly stated in the case of second level appointments that proposals by vocational education committees for appointments should be made in accordance with the recommendations of the selection board.

In the case of appointments to RTCs the same arrangements, though not explicit, are understood to apply also. I will refer in more detail later in my contribution to the regional technical colleges.

When this matter was before the House in February 1989, former Deputy George Birmingham was the main Opposition spokesperson on Education and the question of amending the Vocational Education Act, 1930, was raised. It was indicated from the Government side that the amending of the Vocational Education Act, 1930, was under consideration, particularly the rationalisation of the vocational education committee service through the amalgamation of some of the existing committees. It was my intention to consider the question of teacher appointments by the vocational education committees in the context of amending the 1930 Act. It is important to recognise that the Bill would be, in effect, an amendment of the Vocational Education Act, 1930.

A number of developments affect the operation of vocational education committees which lead me, and the Government, to the conclusion that the time is not opportune to proceed with the legislative amendments to amalgamate VECs.

I would refer the House to the amazing diversity and growth in the scope and nature of the work carried out by the vocational education committees. I note that in the contributions by the Deputy Leader of Fine Gael, and by Deputy Deenihan, there was no reference to the enormous work being carried out by vocational education committees. There was no recognition of their clarity of purpose, their long historical tradition and their magnificent and thorough response to emerging educational needs, far beyond the chalk and talk of regular classes conducted by teachers.

The vocational education committees have followed the remit given to them in 1930. I freely acknowledge that the people who framed that Act were the most sagacious people ever to be in an educational service here or anywhere in the world. The Act was framed in such a flexible and open way that it allowed for developments that could not have been foreseen. The system as then envisaged was based on the teaching of manual trades, technical subjects, husbandry and subjects of a prescribed technical nature, yet the framers of the Act saw to it that the necessary flexibility was there to enable a vocational education committee take on all sorts of other activities. The men and women who have occupied administrative and elective positions since have honoured to the letter the remit they got. Members of the committees, who served voluntarily, set out in 1930 in bad circumstances, in little huts and halls, and followed on from Horace Plunkett and the Technical Instruction Act. They adopted the developmental ideas which were abroad in an emerging nation. Members of these committees still opt to serve voluntarily. They are people who in the main put themselves up through the democratic process.

I have no wish to alter what I said on the last occasion a Bill of this type was proposed and I quote from what I said then:

I have always thought that anyone who goes for election, be it to a local urban council right up to the highest office in the land, is exercising a very noble option. When teaching young people and at political meetings I have often said that it is very easy to decry the democratic process. As we all know various pressures combine to denigrate the work of elected persons. At the same time a person who goes forward for election puts himself or herself in front of the population at large. They knock on doors and invite responses. They go to the ballot box and are vulnerable. Therefore I think we should espouse and guard the democratic process in all of our doings.

I said that nearly two years ago and I stand over it.

I do not wish to imply that Deputy Bruton was snide; he spoke in a very friendly and open fashion, as did Deputy Deenihan. It is not correct to seek in any way to pull down the elective process or the actions of elected people. We speak in a legislative Assembly to which we were elected by the same process as those elected to vocational education committees. I have to make that very plain in the cause of democracy.

Even in the last two years the operations of vocational education committees have diversified and expanded in line with their remit in the Vocational Education Act, 1930.

I want to pay fulsome and sincere tribute to the people, elected and administrative, who operate our vocational education committees. The Youthreach programme is operated jointly by my Department and the Department of Labour. This programme is targeted at people aged from 15 to 18 years who are at least six months in the labour market and who left school without any formal education or training. The programme is intended to provide participants with the knowledge, skills and attitudes required to make the transition to work and adult life. The programme was started in 1989 through 11 vocational education committees and provided 600 places. A further 500 places are being provided in 1990. Further expansion of the scheme is envisaged for 1991. There has been very welcome co-operation between Departments who, previously, were suspicious of each other. They have come together with the vocational education committees in this very fine development.

An amazing example of vocational education committee activity is the implementation in 1989 of the vocational training opportunities scheme. This scheme is aimed at giving unemployed persons over 21 years of age the opportunity to follow full-time education and training. There are now, in its second year of operation, 33 groups of 20 people involved in the scheme spread over 24 vocational education committees. Again, it is the intention to expand the scheme in coming years.

There are vocational preparation and training programmes in which the vocational education committees play the major role. These have continued to increase and diversify and we are in the process of devising a system of recognition of VPTs. All the vocational education committees are operating the vocational preparation and training programmes, either VPT 1 or VPT 2, and in some instances both. There is need for a coherent approach to a system of recognition and accreditation for those schemes. We hope to have a consultative process completed by Christmas and we will then draw up a national scheme to recognise the work of VPTs on a regional basis.

Vocational education committees will come together, with a local input, with modules suited to the environment, then get national recognition of their work study and what has been achieved thereby. It is a great advance, again carried out joyfully by the vocational education committees in the full knowledge that, is so doing, they were expanding the range of options of young people.

In 1990 the allocation for adult literacy and community education targeted at disadvantaged areas was greatly increased. Virtually all of this allocation was given to the vocational education committees who were informed that literacy was a top priority. They have responded magnificently. Before Christmas I am arranging the coming together of all the vocational education committees to undertake an audit of what they have done and to plan for the future.

Another area in which the VECs have responded is that of providing greater scope for and range of activities in the demand for all-Irish education. As a natural follow-up to developments at primary level, second level all-Irish schools are now being provided at an increasing rate, in the main under the aegis of the vocational education committees. For example, they have been provided this year in Carlow, next year in Kilkenny and Bray, with Meath and so on to follow but, wherever they are established, they come under the aegis of the vocational education committees.

In the light of these recent developments — which add to the already diverse role played by VECs in the education and training system — the Government have decided to postpone for the present the question of the rationalisation of the VECs so that the question of bringing forward amending legislation to this end does not arise at present.

In the meantime I have been giving detailed consideration to the Private Members Bill before the House this evening. There are a number of points I might make in regard thereto.

First I should say that appointments to vocational schools are very much in the minority given that such schools comprise approximately 6 per cent only of the total number of all schools, that is to say that there are some 3,200 national schools, 500 secondary schools in the voluntary sector, 60 or so community and comprehensive schools and 250 second level vocational schools. In the case of all of these schools the appointment of teachers is a matter for their management authorities. In those circumstances I am not at all certain that it is reasonable to target VECs for special treatment.

Surely in an era in which we seek to have devolution, to have participatory local democracy, to have people take control of their lives, to have people take decisions by way of elected structures at local level — as do the boards of management of primary schools, and the boards of management of voluntary secondary schools while the numbers of religious involved in education decrease — more and more boards of management and, in some instances, lay principalships come into play as community and comprehensive schools have their boards of management, all with full professionalism taking their decisions at local management level and undertaking their deployment procedures and recruiting their teachers, it would be extraordinary that we would seek to pick out 6 per cent of the schools of Ireland and say to them: you must take another route; you cannot be depended on by way of local democracy; you cannot be depended on to be employed by local management groups; you are something different; you have to go to Dublin to the Local Appointments Commission.

While appointments to VECs technically are made to the committee's scheme as a whole generally they arise out of the needs of individual schools. Accordingly, the requirements of a particular locality are of the utmost importance. This is particularly true in the case of some of the programmes I have already outlined. For that reason those making the selection should be fully aware of the needs of a particular school or locality.

The selection/appointment process nowadays is seen more as an interactive one where the selection board, in addition to assessing the suitability of a candidate for the job, are involved in supplying the candidate with information regarding the post and its demands. It is not a begging position. Rather it amounts to circumstances in which a young adult presents herself or himself to an interview board when a strong interactive process then follows. The question of "mutual suitability"—that is candidate to job and job to candidate — is frequently in question. Selection of this nature requires detailed knowledge of the post, its duties and the environment in which they are performed. The further removed is the selection from the operation of the system the more difficult it is to carry it out on the above basis.

In line with Government policy generally my Department are anxious to devolve as much responsibility as possible for the educational process to local management. The centralisation of functions is at variance with the idea of local bodies having responsibility for matters affecting their everyday lives. The proposal that the appointment of teachers in vocational schools, and to those schools alone, should be determined centrally runs counter to this policy and argues against local democracy.

One must look also at the nature of teacher appointments before deciding to remove this function from the local arena. In the case of vocational schools, in common with other schools, the bulk of appointments arises at a particular time of the year; generally they must be made in time for the opening of the school year. Quite often a VEC will not be fully aware of their requirements for a particular year until quite close to the time schools reopen after the summer vaccation. Indeed, even after the commencement of a school year, if for example there was an unexpected increase in enrolments, if the VPTPs — which are now widely advertised in vocational schools — resulted in extra numbers as they often do because young people now have various options of training, third level education and so on — it takes time for all of that to settle down and assume a shape which often does not happen until the end of September. Repeat leaving certificate courses are becoming a popular option — all the schools are advertising such courses. If, for many reasons, there is an unexpected increase in enrolments then the staffing plans of a school may be subject to alteration. Of course, this is true also where unexpected vacancies arise in the course of the year.

Teaching posts differ from administrative ones in that they can rarely be "carried" for any length of time; the classes and students are there and the teachers must be provided. In such circumstances any appointments procedures must be one which can react quickly to particular needs. The current system has that merit. The fact that appointments are spread over a number of committees means also that no one body is faced with making as many as up to 200 appointments within a relatively short space of time.

The House will be aware also that the demographic trends affecting second level education indicate that enrolments are set to fall fairly dramatically in the mid-nineties. In the case of individual areas this trend has become evident already. Added to that is the fact that funding for vocational preparation and training courses is dependent on moneys emanating mainly from the European Social Fund. In such circumstances it is reasonable that, for a time, a number of teaching posts, although whole-time, in the initial stages must be regarded as temporary whole-time. Of course the Local Appointments Commission do not deal with such. Furthermore, in order to allow greater flexibility in the use of teacher allocation a significant portion of teaching strength sometimes is in part-time provision.

The Bill before us also includes appointments to posts of responsibility. Deputies should be aware that the first "A" post and all "B" posts in any school are confined to teachers in that school. Other "A" posts are confined to teachers within the VEC scheme overall. Again, given the relatively confined field of candidates involved I suggest it would be inappropriate to have such appointments made through the Local Appointments Commission.

I might refer now to the position of the VEC colleges. I hope to be in a position shortly to introduce legislation in regard to the future status and structure of these colleges. Indeed, the matter has been cleared and the legislation has gone to the parliamentary draftsman for preparation. It is my intention that each college would have its governing body responsible for the selection of its staff. While that governing body would be under the aegis of the appropriate VEC, I would envisage them having much more autonomy than is currently the case. Of course this will apply to the selection of teachers and lecturers. I do not believe that when these new structures are put in place they will give rise to any demand for appointments to be based on recommendations of the Local Appointments Commission.

Here I come to an anomaly. Deputy Bruton and Deputy Deenihan referred to the fact that this was a longstanding viewpoint of the TUI, for 20 years. I acknowledge freely that they came to see me on this matter and they put it to me, but in other talks and negotiations the TUI put forward the point of view very strongly that they wished the colleges — and I will be bringing in Bills shortly for the regional colleges and all VEC colleges — to remain under the aegis of the VECs. Therefore, there are two points of view put forward here by the TUI, one that in the selection process 6 per cent of the total primary and second level should somehow mysteriously be taken out of local democracy and plonked at the Local Appointments Commission, yet the strong wish expressed by them in writing and in negotiations and to which I gave assent was that the third level colleges should remain under the VECs. In that regard the Government of 1983-87 before they went out of office had published a Bill providing for the colleges to be removed from the VEC sector. That was strongly resisted by the TUI. I put those facts forward for the record.

The Government will not be supporting this Private Members' Bill as I have no immediate plans to bring in amending legislation to the Vocational Education Act, 1930. I will undertake, however, to give consideration to this question should there be a need in the future to amend the Vocational Education Act.

Before concluding, I should say that in any proposal to change existing procedures, the question must first be asked whether the system as at present constitutes works satisfactorily, and I put forward that it does, eminently. It should be pointed out that when the question was put to the Local Appointments Commission in 1976 the view expressed by the commission at that time, when there would be huge growth in teacher numbers because the numbers of pupils were going up and up, was that the system "is well designed and operates satisfactorily". This view was confirmed again two years later in discussions with the Local Appointments Commission.

Deputy Deenihan said the reluctance of secondary teachers to amalgamate was due to the appointment system of VEC. That is a bit rich because all sorts of difficulties arise with regard to amalgamations but I have never heard that put forward. The appointment of voluntary secondary teachers is certainly not in the hands or lap of the Local Appointments Commission. I would imagine the appointment of vocational teachers is very open, very democratic and fully answerable for by the people who have been elected in the first place. We talk of power and the people. Let the people decide and make their choice. If you elect people on to the county council or borough authority from which the VEC is then formed, how can you on the one hand say, "We believe in the democratic process; we put our faith and trust in these people" and then say, "Yes, but you are not to do that; we do not believe in what you are doing"? It is a very false premise and the whole Bill for that reason is flawed. It is flawed because it is referring to only 6 per cent of the educative process. It is flawed if you believe in devolution, in local management structures and people taking responsibility for their own lives and their own decisions, if you believe in the professionalism of people, the voluntary nature of the VECs and the long tradition of vocational teaching. Let me say I have yet to meet a teacher who was appointed through a VEC who has not proved herself or himself to be truly professional and committed to the course of education and to carry out his or her job in a very fine, dedicated way. Point me out a teacher who has come through the VEC selection procedures and who is not to the best of his or her ability doing a fine job for the young people.

Mr. O'Shea

Even though this is a very short Bill it raises fundamental and wide-ranging issues, some of which were dealt with at some length by the Minister. I was pleased to hear her talk about the many areas in the community in education that the VEC sector serves. Adult education and literacy are two areas that are quite easily forgotten but are the sole preserve of the VEC sector in most areas. Vocational education committees are the most democratic education authorities we have in this State and, as has been pointed out by other speakers, at present principalships, vice-principalships, and posts of responsibility are the concern of the appointments sub-committees of VECs.

A survey was carried out recently by the TUI regarding equality of opportunity in education. Some of the findings there, particularly in so far as they relate to women, are somewhat disturbing. They are that attitudes within the teaching profession reflect the attitudes of society in general; that women still carry the main responsibility for children and, moving into the appointments area, that women are more likely than men to be asked questions at interviews about their child minding arrangements; that men and women alike believe it to be a strong disadvantage to be a married woman seeking promotion; that there is strong dissatisfaction with the appointments and promotions procedure, and that the predominantly male selection boards are a source of complaint by many women.

Let me refer to section 2 of the survey which was carried out by Irish Marketing Surveys regarding equality in education.

It relates to the appointments procedures and shows that half the teachers in the sector are not satisfied with the appointments system that is there at present. I quote:

2. Appointment Procedures

The respondents were asked to rate procedures for appointment on a scale of 0 (not at all satisfactory) to 10 (extremely satisfactory). The average rating was just over the half way point (5.1). Women (at 4.8) gave a markedly less favourable rating than men (5.3) with married women at (4.6) recording the lowest levels of satisfaction. Overall, younger applicants (4.7) and those in the second level VEC sector (4.9) recorded lower than average levels of satisfaction. Not surprisingly, a higher proportion of unsuccessful applicants recorded below-average scores. With unsuccessful married women (3.8) scoring the lowest satisfaction rates of all sex/status categories.

The two main criticisms made by teachers giving a below-average rating of the procedures for appointment related to perceptions of political bias or influence, and Boards lacking the relevant qualifications or competence for interviewing in specific subject or job areas. While men were more likely to be critical of political bias, rather more women than men criticized canvassing or the use of "pull". Women were also more likely to criticize predominantly male Boards, and their sexist or male bias.

The findings of that survey are worrying, and the Labour Party are fully committed to a fair and equitable appointments and promotions procedure. It is obvious from that survey that, on average, half of the teachers surveyed are not happy with the procedure.

We are dealing with a small Bill which raises fundamental and wide ranging issues. The Labour Party have some reservations as to whether a local appointments commission would necessarily prove to be a fairer or more effective method of making appointments at VEC level. Appointments to teaching posts, and the whole area of teaching, relates to an ethos which is a separate thing in various schools. Certainly, the input of the VEC or, indeed, of the board of management on appointments is something that the Labour Party feel cannot lightly be pushed aside. As we know, the chief executive officers of vocational education committees are appointed by the Local Appointments Commission. There is a question as to whether the making of all appointments, and promotions, in a similar manner would not be cumbersome and unwieldy. Indeed, the Minister dealt with this in her submission.

A further question arises as to whether there would be sufficient local knowledge, and the knowledge of local educational needs, available to the commissioners. In recent times there has been considerable discussion about local education authorities, decentralising from the Department of Education in Marlborough Street and giving more powers to education establishments in local areas. The Labour Party are very much in tune with that. The idea of local education authorities is not alone finding support in the vocational sector, where the Teachers Union of Ireland have published a booklet on this concept, but in the private secondary sector also. The concept of local education authorities which seems to be meeting with most favour, is one where there would be considerable devolution of powers and that, as I said earlier, is something we would welcome.

If, however, we are devolving powers to local areas we should consider the point very relevantly made by the Minister that vocational schools only make up 6 per cent of the total educational sector. The appointment of national and secondary teachers, is done very much at local level and not, as I would put it, in the much more democratic vocational education system.

I am glad that the Minister has informed the House that she soon hopes to be presenting the colleges Bill. It was a disappointment to us that it is not in the legislation listed for this session. Indeed, the Minister has told us that the amalgamation of VECs, which was on the agenda when the Bill was last discussed, is something we will not be likely to see in the foreseeable future. Indeed, one of the worrying aspects in terms of the Minister's presentation is that there is no real commitment to introducing any legislation in the area of education in the near future other than the colleges Bill.

The Labour Party would be concerned, for instance, with an Education Act. We would see that as very broadly based, including all the sectors of education. The primary sector, as is known by all sides of the House, has no basic legislation. There is no legislation to back up what is happening in the primary education scene. Indeed, the vocational education sector is the only one that has solid legislation operating throughout its system.

We are not going to get an Education Act. There is something else happening out there, however, that is as relevant and as deeply important. I am referring to the demographic changes that are happening. For the past couple of years 10,000 fewer children have entered our primary schools. It will not be so long until that trend is reflected in our secondary schools, in our vocational schools and in our community schools and colleges. We should take cognisance of the Barbour report published in the past couple of years. One of the findings of that report was that by the year 2006 there will be only one second level institution in each town in the country. Obviously, this will involve a great deal of amalgamation. An amount of this is happening but the fear of the Labour Party is that it is very much on an ad hoc basis. There is a great need for effective research and analysis to define exactly what is happening, then develop policies which will make the best use of resources and provide the best possible education institutions for our children. What is happening now is that we are allowing this to drift but ad hoc arrangements seldom give the best value for money for the taxpayer or the best possible school environment, range of subjects or educational aids for the children involved.

The Bill addresses an issue which is very fundamental to teachers in the vocational sector. Arising from the survey from which I quoted, there is a genuine and deep concern among teachers. The Labour Party are very concerned about that because not alone must the selection and promotion process in our schools be fair, impartial and professional, but it must be demonstrably so.

I have been a member of two VECs since 1985. I have never been a member of an appointments sub-committee but I have to say that in all that time, to my knowledge, there was never an appointment made or promotional posts filled that could be criticised in any way. Deputy Bruton said earlier that in 99.9 per cent of cases everything was above board and appointments were made on a very fair and equitable basis. I agree with him. At base, however, we get back to the point that teachers are not satisfied. They feel that the present system has the shadow of the possibility of political bias hanging over it, that pull or patronage or whatever we want to call it can be exercised. That is regrettable and is certainly not in the interest of teachers. Nor is it in the interest of the educational system that teachers should feel this way.

We in the Labour Party believe that there is a problem in this area. A number of cases have been alluded to already where questionable practices took place. We must respond to the situation as it faces us. Half the teachers are not happy. The Labour Party through their public representatives have played a major role in vocational education committees throughout the country. The Labour Party members, as with other persuasions, brought vision and commitment to those committees. What vocational education committees and teaching staff have achieved, as the Minister rightly said, is nothing short of miraculous considering the resources that are available. I would say to the Minister, Deputy Fahey, that in the area of adult literacy — this is the international year of literacy and extra money has been made available for literacy programmes — it is vital that this level of funding is maintained in the coming year. This is something to which the Government should address themselves as a matter of urgency when preparing the Estimates.

The Labour Party will be supporting this Bill on Second Stage but we want to make it absolutely clear that in doing so we are recognising the great work that vocational education committees have done and are continuing to do. I was heartened by the open and generous fashion in which Deputy Bruton presented the Bill. He said it would be open to the Government, if they so wished, to amend the Bill. We in the Labour Party will also seek to amend the Bill on Committee Stage, following the widest possible discussions. The principle of appointments and promotions being fair, impartial and professional, and demonstrably so, is one to which we have to respond.

Not enough discussion has taken place regarding the nature of vocational education committees. While they are set up by local authorities at their first meeting after the local elections, the vocational education committees do not consist solely of public representatives. Indeed they include representatives of councils of trade unions, chambers of commerce, churches, teachers' unions and notable citizens who have particular expertise or interest in education. It should be stated that the non-political representatives on vocational education committees have, to my knowledge, served on appointments sub-committees. I am talking from experience when I say I have never come across anything untoward in this regard. Even where appointments are made by vocational education committees, not all the committee members are politicians.

We will seek to amend the Bill in ways that would retain some element of a local input. We see this in the context of our desire for a changing scene in education. That changing scene, which I have already refered to, would relate to the devolution of powers to local education authorities. There is not a great deal of agreement on this as yet but I believe this is a developing discussion and it is a matter that the educational establishment as well as the Department of Education will have to respond to. We in the Labour Party see the local education authorities as being involved with first, second and third level education although from what the Minister has said regarding the colleges Bill, if I understood her correctly, the third level element is something that will be removed from the vocational sector in the near future.

The range of subjects in vocational schools is of great concern to us in the Labour Party. A lot of the small vocational schools which have played such an important role in rural Ireland are finding it more and more difficult if not impossible to provide a proper range of subjects. It was very heartening for me on Friday night last when I attended the opening of the Engineering and Technology Teachers Association annual conference in Waterford to see the extent of the engineering area. It included robotics, pneumatics, electronics and technology. It was certainly a great eye-opener for me. This is special to the vocational sector. Indeed the Engineering and Technology Teachers Association put forward their own young engineer prize which coincides to some extent with the practical side of the leaving certificate. Not alone are the children given a very extensive and important grounding in the various areas related to engineering but also in projects such as starting off a business or selling something to make a profit. A criticism that is all too often made in this country is that the educational system does not produce entrepreneurs. This type of approach in vocational schools is something which is very much to be welcomed. It is just one part of a very wide-ranging service which the schools provide.

The Minister referred to innovations like Youthreach and the fact that people over 21 years are given the wherewithal to work towards a degree. Perhaps there is a slight contradiction in the position I am taking here. Generally speaking the Labour Party would be totally in favour of retaining and increasing the democratic power at local level. At present teachers are very much under stress in the sense that classes are too large and they work very long hours. Something that is not given sufficient recognition is the number of hours spent by teachers above and beyond the call of duty on curricular or extra-curricular activities. To some extent, maybe more so at first level but to an increasing extent at second level, discipline becomes an ongoing and extremely taxing problem. If teachers are not satisfied with their appointment system, if they feel they are tainted in any way — there have been some noted cases but they are a tiny part of all the appointments made — they would, by and large, recognise this.

Another point was made regarding a lack of professionalism on the part of interviewers. As part of the appointments subcommittee of local authorities or VECs, the Department's inspector and the chief executive officer sit on the interview board as advisers so that the assessment of candidates in terms of their professional qualifications and related matters can be dealt with by the two professionals present. I believe — and the Minister touched on this in her speech — that the public representatives, because they deal with the public on such a large base, particularly in regard to public representatives and others involved in vocational education committes, are very impressive because of their knowledge not alone of the vocational education system but because of the detailed knowledge they have of their schools.

Those on boards of management in particular are aware of the problems with enrolment, growing problems at the moment in relation to subject range and the limits caused by cutbacks in this area. The various public representatives who have served on the VEC and boards of management in schools in the vocational sector have a very definitite knowledge of the type of teacher required. In relation to quite a number of positions advertised in the vocational sector, the job description limits the number of candidates who can apply for a particular job in the sense that a school has a need to provide an amount of extra tuition in relation to a number of sections. Let me, for the final time, stress that I am a great believer in the vocational education system and in the integrity of the vast majority of people involved in it.

The Labour Party, in supporting this Bill on Second Stage, do so on the basis that teachers are not happy. We will certainly have extensive further discussions in expectation of Committee Stage of the Bill when we will seek to amend the Bill to clear the doubts of the teachers concerned and at the same time in the very special way that a school is part of a locality and community, to ensure that the local element is not lost and that it remains part of the appointments process. Leis na focail sin, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, críochnóidh mé anois. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Mr. Dempsey

My stand on this Bill may be unusual in that I have been a member of a VEC since 1985. I was a teacher in the VEC and secondary school systems so I profess to have some knowledge of both levels of second level education.

It is very regrettable that the Bill is before us for two reasons. The first is because it casts a slur on every member of a VEC, the locally elected public representatives who make up VECs and on the people to whom Deputy O'Shea referred, the many fine people other than public representatives who serve on VECs and on appointments committees of VECs.

What we have heard so far — and I will refer to this later — are hints and innuendoes of possible allegations of a whole lot of unsubstantiated political skulduggery. It has not been said — but it has been implied — that there is something there but nobody has said anything concrete. What is probably even more regrettable is that a slur has been cast on every teacher appointed and serving on any of the VEC schemes. The allegation is that somehow or other they got their position because they had pull, political influence or because something was not quite right. The implication is that this Bill will rectify it and stamp out allegations — unsubstantiated — which are being merely hinted at by Members opposite.

In the VEC system there are very professional and dedicated people who are doing an excellent job and have been doing it since vocational education started in the thirties. I totally reject an attempt by any Member of this House to hint or allege anything other than that. They are a professional body and, despite what has been said, many of them will be very disappointed at this allegation, or attempted slur, by Members of the Opposition.

It is notable in all the contributions made here that, so far — and I have no doubt it will continue until the debate is finished — everybody said, or will say, that to their knowledge they do not know of any appointment made in their VEC through pull, political skulduggery or anything else. However, they will say that somewhere teachers have been appointed because they had political pull, that they are incompetent and the only reason they were selected by some VEC is that they had political influence. I utterly reject that allegation.

I regret the Bill for another reason — it proposes to take from the management of the vocational schools the right to appoint their own employees. Can anyone here imagine any company or organisation that would hand——

Debate adjourned.