Vol. 403 No. 8
3 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach the number of meetings he has held so far with trade union, employer and farmer organisations regarding a replacement for the current Programme for National Recovery; if he will outline the progress made at these talks; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
At the meetings I and relevant Ministers held with the trade union, employer and farm organisations on 8 and 10 October 1990, it was agreed that detailed negotiations should be undertaken on the scope and content of a possible new programme for economic and social progress. It was also agreed that these negotiations would be conducted between representatives of the organisations concerned and senior Government officials with a view to the preparation of a series of detailed proposals for decision, in due course, by the Government and the organisations concerned. This was the procedure successfully followed in the preparation of the Programme for National Recovery.
To date, 33 such negotiating meetings have been held and the discussions at these meetings have been proceeding in a constructive and satisfactory manner. When the work of these meetings has reached a more advanced stage there will be further meetings between myself and the relevant Ministers and the social partners with the purpose, if possible, of concluding agreement on a new programme for economic and social progress for the decade.
I am sure that all Deputies will welcome a satisfactory outcome to these negotiations as a consensus approach to economic and social progress, as the success of the Programme for National Recovery proved, is undoubtedly the best approach in a small open economy such as ours.
Can the Taoiseach indicate within what time frame he expects the negotiations to include or at what point does he feel a position will be reached where the various social partners will have recommendations to make to their respective organisations? I am sure he will be aware that the current agreement expires shortly and that certainly the trade union movement are in the process now of preparing claims for the coming year. When does he think this agreement might be concluded?
Progress is good and I think we are getting near to a fairly conclusive stage but, as the Deputy knows, this sort of negotiation, particularly when it is quadripartite, can yield unexpected difficulties from time to time.
I have no particular reason to expect at this stage that we will not be able to move fairly soon now to a conclusion. It would be desirable, of course, if the negotiations could be successfully concluded before the end of the year and that is very much in everybody's mind, but I would not like to be pinned down too much on that.
I take it then that the expectation is that the proposals in relation to the agreement will be concluded by the time the budget comes around close to the end of January. Has the Taoiseach taken account of the statement by the General Secretary of the ICTU on the question of tax reform and his statement in October and that he did not see how the Congress could recommend any agreement if substantial progress was not made in the 1991 budget on reducing the burden on the majority of PAYE taxpayers?
The Deputy is raising a separate matter.
The Deputy can take it that all these matters are fully taken into account.
I have two questions. First, what is the proposed term of the new agreement? Is it a two year time frame or a three year time frame? Is there a proposal for a ten year time frame in respect of certain matters? Further, have any of the partners indicated in any way that their agreement to the programme is contingent on certain decisions being taken in the budget?
First, the Congress put forward the idea of a ten year strategy, but that is not a ten year programme. That is a proposal to which we responded very positively and which I think is an excellent one. I would visualise things proceeding in this way, that we would have a ten year strategy right across the board for economic, social and all other objectives. Into that ten year strategy a number of successive programmes would fit with the objective of achieving the overall strategic aims within the ten year framework. At the moment the question of the length of time of this programme has not been settled. The Government would naturally favour a three year programme, if possible the same as the first one, but that is still up for discussion. There are no specific proposals from any side on the table at this stage of the discussions in connection with the forthcoming budget.
I want to make a final point in relation to No. 3. The reason for my other question about tax reform was that in responding to my earlier question the Taoiseach indicated that it would be concluded, hopefully, by the budget. If it is to include tax reform then clearly we will not know what is involved until the budget is published. How, therefore, can we expect that agreement can be reached in advance of the budget?
We dealt with that problem successfully the last time.
Would the Taoiseach outline how he proposes to deal with it this time?
Not at this stage, no.
Why not?
Because negotiations are not concluded and I think the Deputy would be just as well to leave the negotiations to proceed satisfactorily as they are at present doing and await the outcome.
I think the Taoiseach should keep his lectures for his own party rather than for me. Perhaps he could answer the question I am putting to him.
I want to go on to the next question.
I know the Deputy does not favour national programmes——
That is not true.
——and he would like to try to upset this one if he could. I want to assure him that there is far too much goodwill all round arising from the success of the first programme.
The Taoiseach's response is a clear indication of the man's ignorance.
This should not lead to argument. Let us have a reply to No. 4.
I may have some sort of benign ignorance but I would much prefer that to the philosophy to which the Deputy subscribes — unfortunately, still subscribes — even though it has been shown to be a devastating philosophy in Eastern Europe.
Could the Taoiseach explain the fact that his philosophy results in the death of 40 million children each year all around the world?
Please let us have some order.
Please, Deputy De Rossa, if you have nothing else to look at, just look at the situation of the Romanian children, and then recant.
Perhaps the Taoiseach would now return to the very relevant question of our health services and what he proposes to do about them in the current programme.
