Louis J. Belton
Ceist:13 Mr. Belton asked the Minister for Justice if he will amend the legislation on juvenile crime to include a range of alternative penalties to detention; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Juvenile Crime Legislation.
There is already a wide range of alternatives to custody available to the courts for the purpose of dealing with offenders — including juvenile offenders. For example, all the alternatives recommended at paragraph 2.12 of the Whitaker report were already in place at the time of publication of that report, with the exception of provision for the confiscation of assets in certain cases. The House will be aware that I am at present considering proposals for the introduction of such confiscation measures and I hope to be in a position to make an announcement in that regard in the near future.
The use of alternatives to custody has expanded considerably since the Whitaker report was published and there is ample evidence of the extensive use of such alternatives in the case of juvenile offenders in particular. At present there are over three times as many offenders under the age of 21 on alternatives of various kinds as there are in custody.
It may not, I think, be fully appreciated that a high proportion of juvenile offenders in custody have already been through a range of alternatives in respect of earlier offences. In other words, custodial sanctions tend, broadly speaking, to be used as a last resort, though there may of course be exceptions. It is an unfortunate fact of life, however, that alternatives to custody do not work in the case of certain very persistent offenders and that they would simply be inappropriate in the case of serious offenders — some of whom, incidentially, are juveniles. In such cases it becomes essential in the interest of protecting the offenders concerned and the community in general to apply a custodial sanction.
I would like to assure the Deputy and the House that I strongly favour the use of alternatives to custody, whenever possible. That is why, as part of his law enforcement package for 1991, the Minister for Justice announced plans for the recruitment of 31 additional probation and welfare staff, for assignment to the task of providing special supervision for about 200 offenders, including juvenile offenders, in the community. Two drop-in centres will also be provided for these offenders — one in Dublin and one in Cork.
Given the fact that the range of alternatives to custody already in place appears to be quite adequate and that they are being widely used, I do not have proposals at this time for further legislative provision in this regard — with the possible exception of provision for confiscation of assets to which I referred earlier. I shall, however, keep the matter under review and if any legislative change appears to be desirable, announcements will be made in the usual way.
While it is not an alternative to custody as such, inasmuch as it is not an alternative penalty available to the courts, it is relevant to mention also the Garda juvenile liaison officer scheme, which provides for persons aged 17 years or younger being cautioned and supervised, as an alternative to prosecution.
On weekdays only.
In 1989, the number of new cases dealt with under the scheme was 2,716. Last December the Minister for Justice announced a number of improvements in the operation of the scheme, including the establishment of a national juvenile liaison office to oversee the operation of this scheme throughout the State.
This question was motivated by the fact that at regular intervals chronic cases come before the court and the justices discover that there is no place available for them. For example, there was a report in yesterday's paper about a chronic case in Dún Laoghaire, a 13 year old boy for whom there was no place available and who was sent back to the community. Surely the Minister should ensure that chronic cases like that are sent to places of detention suitable to their difficulties where they can get a modicum of assistance at least. The Minister has thrown some beautiful figures in our direction but the system he is operating at the moment is not catering for the type of client it should be catering for.
I have to dissuade the Deputy from making a speech. Let us proceed by way of questions.
It is unacceptable that people who are chronic offenders should be put out into society again when there are quite a number of ordinary individuals who have managed to commit a misdemeanour and are put into places of detention.
The Deputy is going on over long.
Is the Minister proposing, for example, that juvenile liaison officers——
Sorry, Deputy, you are ignoring the Chair.
I was asking a question about juvenile liaison officers.
I am very confused, a Cheann Comhairle, because it seems that Deputy Cotter is at issue with his colleague, Deputy Belton, who is seeking alternatives to custody. Deputy Cotter, on the other hand, wants custody for these young people.
For the chronic cases.
I have pointed out the situation pertaining to 17 year olds and upwards, the line we adopt and the attitude we have because it is the alternative we would prefer for that age group. However, those under 16 who have problems are the responsibility of the Minister for Education. The House will be aware that the Department of Education are in the process of providing further accommodation for juvenile offenders, both male and female.
The buck is passed again.
In regard to alternative detention for this group, the position is that most of the alternatives already in place can be applied to them.
As the Minister has taken up Deputy Cotter's suggestion in regard to places of secure detention for chronic cases, to allay the problems of district justices like the district justice in Dún Laoghaire, could he indicate when the secure unit will be available?
To come to what the question seems to be about, that is, alternatives where appropriate, will the Minister confirm that the United Nations charter with regard to the treatment of young offenders, signed by the Taoiseach in September in New York, which expressly provides that a young person will not be committed to detention except as a last resort, will be honoured both in the spirit and the letter in future Government decisions and in legislation here? Can the Minister confirm when, if ever, the ban on overtime for juvenile liaison officers will be lifted——
The Deputy is bringing in extraneous matter now.
——the juvenile liaison officers were mentioned — so that they can operate particularly at weekends when young people are readily available?
The Deputy has made his point.
In response to the last part of Deputy McCartan's question I can say that as a result of a personal interest and intervention by the Minister for Justice there is no ban on overtime for juvenile liaison officers and they can and are working at weekends.
Since when?
Since last December. The Minister for Justice announced in his law reform and crime fighting package the alternatives and the position. We are adopting the line proposed in the United Nations Charter; we do not want custody if we can avoid it, it will be used only as a last resort. We are trying to utilise to the maximum the alternatives so that we can ensure that these young people can be brought to a normal level of social behaviour.
Would the Minister agree that it is an absolute scandal that 13 and 14 year olds are wandering on our streets, appearing in district courts and so on? Would the Minister agree that it is time he and his Department sought ways and means of making parents responsible in some regard? Will he immediately put in place some procedure where parents would be involved at a very early stage when these children are taken into police stations? Is the Minister aware of the non attendance at schools by some children and that nothing is being done in relation to them by the Department of Education? Finally, would the Minister agree that the total failure of the community service orders and the probation and welfare service arise directly from the massive cuts in expenditure imposed by him and the Government over the last four years.
I must dissuade the Deputy from engaging in debate. This is not good enough at Question Time. I want to deal with other questions.
When will we have a reasonable level of resources to improve these services?
I want to refute the suggestion by Deputy Barrett that we have forced cuts in this area and that they have led to serious problems. I can assure him that the Government are totally committed to ensuring that young people are protected and that there are proper facilities for them.
A sum of £3,000 out of £75 million.
We brought in a new Child Care Bill to deal with children under 18.
We must move on to another question.
We all have a responsibility, including parents, and we are examining that.
Deputy Cotter rose.
Sorry Deputy, we have dealt with this question adequately and at some length.