Dick Spring
Ceist:1 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the basis on which he has stated that devolution does not recommend itself at this stage to most parties in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Devolution in Northern Ireland.
This is my assessment of the position based on a wide range of conversations, discussions held and statements made in that context. If is for the parties concerned to clarify their attitude to the matter in the context of any political talks which take place.
I am sure the Taoiseach is familiar with the Anglo-Irish Agreement and in particular with Article 4 (b) which states that the policy of devolving certain powers to Northern Ireland is the policy of the UK Government and that the Irish Government support such a policy. Does the Taoiseach still support the Anglo-Irish Agreement and does he accept it in its totality after his earlier misgivings? Is the Taoiseach satisfied that his attitude towards devolution of power in Northern Ireland is consistent with Article 4 (b) of the Anglo-Irish Agreement?
I am satisfied. The agreement goes on to speak on the basis of cross-party support. My genuine assessment and appreciation of the situation is that such cross-party support does not exist.
The Taoiseach has elaborated today on the statement of last week that from the discussions devolution does not recommend itself to the parties in Northern Ireland. My understanding is that of the parties in Northern Ireland, the SDLP, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Official Unionist Party and the Alliance Party, the Official Unionist Party are the only party which have clearly signalled that they are not in favour of devolution and are in fact quite hostile to the propect of devolution and favour integration with the UK. Will the Taoiseach elaborate further on his understanding from the discussions he had with the parties in Northern Ireland as to which parties would or would not enter into discussions about devolution?
I told the Deputy that that was my assessment from the statements that were made from time to time and the discussions I have had. I would suggest to the Deputy that there is not a great benefit in pursuing this any further at this stage, because if the talks take place, as we hope they will, such a proposal will probably be one of the first items to be talked about. When the talks take place than we will know where everybody stands.
Can I take it from what the Taoiseach is saying that the Taoiseach and his Government, if talks commence, will enter into those talks with a totally open mind in relation to devolution, because the Taoiseach has been quite dismissive of the concept of devolved powers in Northern Ireland in the past when he referred to them? Will the Taoiseach enter into those talks with an open mind in his approach to devolution and not just with a commitment to one option about which he has spoken, that of a unitary state.
I do not really have time go go into all the different aspects of it here, but I would go back to the report of the New Ireland Forum which clearly outlines my view and the view of the majority of Nationalists on the different areas. With regard to the talks, I have already said that this Government will go into the talks with an open mind on any possible new arrangements that might be put in place to transcend the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
I would ask the Taoiseach three questions. The Taoiseach stated that statements have been made by the parties to suggest that they are not in favour of devolution. What statements have been made and where, by the SDLP, the Democratic Unionist Party and the Alliance Party, to suggest that they are opposed to devolution? Will the Taoiseach please be specific. Secondly, does the Taoiseach believe that there are three strands of talks and relationships here, including the internal strand between the two communities in Northern Ireland, what arrangements can be made for co-operation between the Nationalist and Unionist community in Northern Ireland with regard to Government and politics, that does not involve devolution? Would the Taoiseach not agree that the only internal arrangement that can be reached for co-operative activity must involve devolution? Thirdly——
May I appeal for brevity, please.
I will leave it at that and come back to the third question.
I have to repeat what I have already said to Deputy Spring, that I do not really believe that there is any particular advantage in pursuing this question as to who is and who is not for or against devolution in view of the fact that something of that kind will almost certainly be an item which will be discussed in the talks if they take place. The whole value of the talks will be that everybody concerned will be able to clarify their positions. I do not intend to go any further today than to again express the hope that these talks will take place and that this Government will come to those talks with an open mind on any possible new arrangements that may be put in place that will transcend the Anglo-Irish Agreement as it stands.
If the Taoiseach says, as he has just said, that there is no point in pursuing here the issue of who is for or against devolution, why then did the Taoiseach last week make a statement to the effect that devolution does not recommend itself at this stage to most of the parties in Northern Ireland? Why was the Taoiseach so undiplomatic and indiscreet as to attempt to speak for parties in Northern Ireland rather than for himself and attempt to ascribe views to them which are not their views, and will the Taoiseach agree that last week his statement attributing views to the parties in Northern Ireland which are not their views, was highly unwise and not conducive to the success of the present initiative.
I have to dissuade the House from the notion of debating this matter now.
The attitude of Deputy Bruton since he took the leadership of that party has been far from helpful. In fact in this sensitive, delicate area he has been blundering around like a bull in a china shop. I am closer to the situation and to what the people think in Northern Ireland than he is. I know exactly why I said what I said and that was my assessment. Deputies asked me for my opinion and I gave my assessement. If the talks take place and we get a different view from the different parties, well and good.
Deputy Proinsias De Rossa.
Could I recall to the House the statement made by the Taoiseach.
This tendency to debate this is not in order now, Deputy.
The Taoiseach made a personal remark.
(Interruptions.)
Excuse me, Deputies, I will not permit a debate on these matters.
That was a personal remark.
I am calling Deputy De Rossa.
On a point of order, if a personal attack is made by the Taoiseach on a Deputy, surely that Deputy is entitled to respond and to further pursue that matter.
That is not a point of order, Deputy.
It is a reality.
The Deputy is merely adding to disorder.
I am sure the Chair will allow me to go back to it.
Clearly, even with the stated position of the Leader of the Official Unionist Party——
He is trying to sabotage the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
We cannot debate that issue now.
A Deputy
What can this Parliament do?
Even with the stated position of the Leader of the Official Unionist Party that he favours integration — and perhaps that is one of the difficulties with making progress in getting the talks off the ground — it is clear from the stated positions of all of the other parties in Northern Ireland that they favour devolution. Would the Taoiseach not now accept that that is the case and that opinion polls in Northern Ireland from all sides of the community have indicated that the people of Northern Ireland strongly favour devolution of some form? Does the Taoiseach propose to take an opportunity in the House either tomorrow or some time next week to make a statement following whatever statements are made by the Northern Ireland Secretary in the House of Commons tomorrow on the issue of the talks and the Brooke initiative generally.
I have given the Deputy my assessment of what I believe is the actual position of the different parties in Northern Ireland and that the level of cross-party support which the Anglo-Irish Agreement envisages does not exist. The talks may reveal a different situation and, if they do, well and good. I will certainly report to the House when there is anything of significance to be reported.
Deputies Spring, J. O'Keeffe and J. Bruton rose.
Order, please. We are now ten minutes on this question——
A Cheann Comhairle——
I am not prepared to remain for an inordinately long time on any question. If Members want to debate Northern Ireland there are many ways open to them in this House to do so. A brief question from Deputy Bruton and Deputy Spring.
With respect, a question was put down in accordance with the Standing Orders of this House. Surely, I am entitled to get some information.
I agree.
I have allowed the Deputy some considerable time to interject with his questions.
I am quite happy to allow Deputy Spirng to come in.
I feel that this is a very serious matter and warrants full consideration by this House.
We must not and shall not debate this matter now, and Deputy Spring knows that.
I am not seeking a debate but rather seeking to be helpful in relation to the very serious and tragic problem in Northern Ireland.
I want brevity, as I am proceeding to another question quite shortly.
Last week the Taoiseach informed us that devolution did not recommend itself to the parties in Northern Ireland and, if I may say so, he has confused the issue somewhat today. May I put it to him, given the very serious and strenuous efforts which have been made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland during the past two years to bring the parties in Northern Ireland together to commence talks, that it would be of help to those parties who are reluctant to come to the table if he gave a firm commitment to support devolution of powers in Northern Ireland as a possibility?
I did ask for brevity.
Part of the problem is that the Taoiseach is hanging on to the concept of the unitary state when this is neither practical nor possible, and he is not supporting the concept of devolution in Northern Ireland as a possibility.
That may be the Deputy's view, but I would go back again to the all-party agreement in the New Ireland Forum on that issue. As far as I am concerned, all of those matters can be discussed at the inter-party talks when they take place. The opportunity will then be viable to everybody to clarify his or her positions in regard to not just devolution, which itself has many different aspects and means different things to different people, but also in regard to all other aspects of some form of new arrangements for the better government of Northern Ireland, or a better arrangement to take the place of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
A final, succinct and relevant question from Deputy Bruton.
Would the Taoiseach agree that I have no need to resort to personal remarks——
The Deputy has done it regularly.
——to bolster the case I am making in regard to this matter? Would he also agree that any opinions that I have expressed in regard to the Brooke initiative have been based on documentary evidence of what the Taoiseach and the Government have actually said? Would he further agree that the notion of a unitary state, while an ideal is not something which can be achieved in the short term and that therefore the Government should be bending their energies towards a practical solution which would bring peace to this island rather than pursuing ideals which are simply divisive because they are not shared by all who live on this island?
We have now been a quarter of an hour on this question. This is not good enough at Question Time. I am proceeding to Question No. 2 in the name of Deputy Nealon.
No reply.
I have already given my response.
He is under some pressure and he has to resort to personal remarks.