Vol. 407 No. 6
11 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the matters discussed at his recent meeting in Dublin with the South African President, Mr. De Klerk; if the matter of sanctions was discussed at the meeting; if he raised with President De Klerk the position of political prisoners in South Africa; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
12 Mr. Deasy asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his meeting with President De Klerk of South Africa.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 and 12 together.
The President of South Africa, Mr. F.W. De Klerk, accompanied by the Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Leon Wessels, paid a one-day working visit to Ireland on Thursday last and had discussions with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and me. Our discussions continued over a working lunch.
The talks covered political and economic developments in South Africa and included the issues of political prisoners and exiles and of violence in the townships and elsewhere, as well as South Africa's position in southern Africa generally and its relations with Ireland and the European Community. I greatly welcomed the opportunity which the visit provided to exchange views with President De Klerk and to receive from him a detailed outline of his programme for the establishment of a pluralist democracy in South Africa and the problems and difficulties in the way.
The President outlined in great detail his plans and the irreversible process under way to bring apartheid to an end. I emphasised to him the Irish Government's long-standing opposition to the system and our firm wish to see it abolished at the earliest possible date.
The visit of President De Klerk provided an important opportunity to indicate the Government's firm support and encouragement for the reforms being pressed forward by him and our desire that the process would continue with all possible speed. The visit also enabled me to express our expectation that, as the reforms continued, they would influence relations between South Africa and the international community, including Ireland.
Will the Taoiseach indicate what evidence President De Klerk provided that the reforms under way are, in fact, irreversible? The Taoiseach will be aware that the representatives of the community in South Africa who have consistently opposed apartheid have indicated that they do not want sanctions removed until there is evidence of irreversible reforms and that they expressed concern that that evidence does not yet exist. Would the Taoiseach outline what proposals he made to President De Klerk as, according to a report of his speech in the National Concert hall, he indicated, that he, the Taoiseach, and Deputy Collins, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, had made tremendously constructive proposals?
The discussions primarily took the form of President De Klerk providing information for us and outlining his plans for dealing with progress towards a pluralist democracy. The Deputy knows as well as I all the things that are adduced in favour of the argument that the process called apartheid is irreversible and President De Klerk assured us firmly that his programme is to move steadily towards a pluralist democracy. The two principal pieces of legislation are now being brought forward and he gave us an assurance that they will be enacted during the lifetime of this particular Government. He also spoke at great length about his efforts to meet the wishes of the ANC with regard to political prisoners, exiles and violence in the townships. All in all, the meeting took the form of an informative outline by President De Klerk of his plans and the progress he is making. He was also at some pains to outline the difficulties that the whole process, not just he as President, is encountering in South Africa.
From the communique issued after the meeting, the Taoiseach obviously discussed the question of the removal of the remaining sanctions on the importation of South African produce——
We did not.
Therefore the question of the removal of the remaining sanctions was not discussed?
No.
I think I was led astray by a newspaper report but I clearly saw that comment. May I ask the Taoiseach if the question of the setting up of diplomatic relations between the two countries was discussed?
I reiterate that the question of sanctions was not discussed. President De Klerk did not make any request to us with regard to sanctions. Naturally, he wishes to have improved relations with this country and with the European Community in particular. Our attitude to that was that we foresaw a process taking place whereby as the situation in South Africa developed satisfactorily and moved towards a pluralist society and the final and total abolition of apartheid pari passu with that relationships with this country and the European Community would improve equally. Questions like removing the rest of the sanctions, establishing better trade links, removing the ban on sporting contacts and the possible ultimate establishment of diplomatic relationships will all be part of the process but, as I said, it would be a pari passu process.
May I ask the Taoiseach if the repeal of the Population Registration Act and the Internal Security Act, two crucial elements of the apartheid system, was listed among the reforms outlined by President De Klerk?
Yes, in a general way. The President indicated that his policy in all these areas is to move forward. In particular he places the greatest possible reliance on the constitutional talks and the new constitution. I think the Deputy would probably agree.
Therefore he did not actually say that he was going to bring in legislation to repeal them?
Would the Taoiseach tell the House if he made it clear to Mr. De Klerk that he should immediately accept the reasonable demands of majority black opinion in this country? Until he does this there should be no further easing of the sanctions. If the Taoiseach did not do this, would he give the reason?
I do not understand the thrust of the Deputy's question. As I have already explained, we did not discuss the sanctions or their removal. The conversation mainly took the form of the President explaining to us what he was trying to achieve and how he hoped to achieve it.
May I ask the Taoiseach why he did not raise the question of sanctions which is a vital and important issue? He should have raised it.
The Deputy has already put that question.
The sanctions are there. I am sure a lot of people would have expected the President to make approaches to us about the removal of sanctions but the point I am making is that he did not.
Has the Taoiseach any information on the question of sporting activities in South Africa and is he satisfied that we are nearing a position where sporting links could be reopened with South Africa?
Again, I would suggest that that should form part of overall progress. As the situation in South Africa moves forward, as progresss is made and as developments take place, particularly with regard to the constitutional talks, it would be a matter for the outside world to move accordingly in all these areas — the sanctions, the ban on sporting links, consular activities, diplomatic relations and so on.
Shall I call Deputy Spring and leave the final question to Deputy De Rossa?
May I ask the Taoiseach if President De Klerk adverted to the question of a Bill of Rights for South Africa?
Only in a general way as part of the constitutional talks but he sees the talks leading to the establishment of a new constitution which would be accepted by the South African Parliament and that a new election would then take place on the new constitution. He sees that as the overall strategic way forward.
I find it difficult to accept — although I take the Taoiseach's word for it — that at a meeting between the Taoiseach and the President of South Africa sanctions were not discussed in some way. President De Klerk may not have referred to them but may I ask the Taoiseach if he referred to them and to outline the proposals which President De Klerk claims the Taoiseach made to him? May I also ask the Taoiseach in what way will the question of the easing of sanctions be approached? Is it intended to have a programme to ease the sanctions related to specific improvements in the position of the black and coloured population in South Africa? The Taoiseach referred to the expectation that two pieces of legislation will be enacted soon. Will they lead to an easing of sanctions and, if so, will the actual implementation of these acts be a requirement before sanctions are eased because, as we all know, legislation can be put on the Statute Book but often it is more difficult to implement such legislation?
As the Deputy knows, it is a multi-faceted and very complex situation. Let me deal with the last point first. With regard to these two pieces of legislation which deal with what are known as the pillars of apartheid the President did indicate that it is his intention to have them enacted within the lifetime of the present parliament. As I said, I am sure most people would have expected the South African President to make an appeal to us on sanctions but strange as it may seem he did not. Therefore, as far as we are concerned it is up to ourselves to decide on what action we should take on sanctions. As the Deputy knows, the position is that we move in harmony with our European partners who have already decided to remove the ban on investment. The removal of the sanctions on iron and steel and Krugerrands is being held up by the Danish Parliament but the decision has been taken to remove those. Thereafter perhaps the matters of major interest so far as we are concerned would be our own two specific items. It is a matter for us to decide as we wish on the merits of the situation. The Community was influenced in removing the sanctions by the need to give a signal of support to President De Klerk. After all, the international community cannot have it both ways. If they approve of what President De Klerk is trying to do, and if they believe that he is sincere in what he is trying to do, it is not unreasonable that they should offer him some assistance and some indication of support in what he is trying to do. We must always keep that in mind in looking at the question of sanctions. That will be our attitude, too.
