Vol. 409 No. 5
11 Mr. G. O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Justice, in the light of the inadequate rehabilitative treatment of our offenders and the underfunding in this area, his views on the extent to which our prison service has an adequate rehabilitative effect; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
It is not possible to deal fully with all the complex issues that arise in relation to this topic by way of answer to a parliamentary question and I shall confine myself to bringing out the essential points. Before I do so I want to say, and I am sure the House will agree, that it would be most unfortunate if anything were to be said here today which would tend to undermine the efforts of prison management and staff, and all of the support services in the prisons, in the difficult job they perform on behalf of our community.
While the primary purpose of the prison system is to maintain in safe custody offenders sentenced to prisons and places of detention by the courts, a central element of prison policy is to provide offenders with services and facilites which will encourage them to use their time in prison constructively and help them to lead law-abiding and self-supportive lives on their release. Civilised penal systems the world over have been forced to face the reality that prisons of themselves cannot rehabilitate people and that all that can be hoped and aimed for is that prisoners, by availing of a range of helpful services, may be encouraged to rehabilitate themselves.
Our prison system has a wide range of institutions, from high security to open centres, available to meet the varying needs of different individuals. Within these institutions an extensive range of services is made available including educational, work training, medical, psychiatric, psychological, welfare and chaplaincy services. These services have been detailed to the House on a number of occasions in the past and are dealt with fully in the annual reports on the prisons which are available in the Oireachtas Library.
It is quite incorrect to suggest that the prison system has been under funded. Total expenditure on prisons in the last ten years has been over £610.7 million. The amount provided for 1991 in the Prisons Vote is almost £81 million, including £7.2 million for the probation and welfare service and £500,000 for work and work training. Teachers' salaries are not paid from the Prisons Vote but are paid directly by the Department of Education and ultimately by vocational education committees and amount to some £1.75 million a year.
I am satisfied that the extent to which the prison system is geared to provde help, encouragement and facilities for prisoners to rehabilitate themselves is satisfactory and that the funding provided is relatively generous when the needs of the many other vital social services are fully taken into consideration.
I would like to say to you, Sir, that it is not the purpose of this question to undermine the services or staff of the Prison Service. Having given that reply, can the Minister say to this House that he is satisfied that prisoners are getting rehabilitation in prison with the budgets available to his Department? I have to disagree with him if that is to be his answer. Can he say part of the problem is that many of the prisoners having spent some time there come out having attended, so to speak, the university of criminals in prison rather than being rehabilitated, as evidenced by the return of prisoners to the same establishments after a very short period?
I am satisfied that tremendous work has been done in this area. A tremendous new approach has been taken over the last few years. We must all accept that, as has been traditional over the years, a significant proportion of offenders may be expected to be recommitted to prisons for new offences. Prior to their committal many offenders have had little or no opportunity to realise their potential skills or resources. Many of them have had little or no education or work skills and many come from socially deprived backgrounds. Obviously, the ability of any prison regime successfully to overcome such long term disadvantages and antisocial tendencies must be limited and we must acknowledge that. The range of services and activites available in our places of custody as I have outlined — medical, welfare, educational, work training and others — have the broad effect of educating offenders so that they may be encouraged to turn away from antisocial behaviour and be prepared to lead useful lives on their return to normal life. It is important to acknowledge, however, that the prison system cannot do the impossible. A great deal is up to the individual, taking into account the level of opportunity created for him within the prison system.
Is the Minister aware that about 27 per cent of the prison population is under 21 years of age? Is he further aware that the one common denominator they have is high levels of illiteracy and poor educational records and performance? Is he further aware that prevention is better than cure? I assume he is. Have his Department been in consultation with other Departments with a view to bringing about prevention? Have they looked at various programmes? For example, have they evaluated the effects the educational cutbacks have had on the increase in juvenile crime? Particularly over the last three years have they evaluated the huge increase in the number of child sexual abuse reported cases, which is obviously increasing the number of disturbed children in our communities? Have they made any attempt to put together a programme to provide more resources for schools and more resources for health boards so that we might prevent such crimes?
Please, Deputy Cotter I think that is sufficient at this stage.
I think Deputy Cotter has meandered into several departments on this question.
It is the Minister's job to co-ordinate and provide resources.
It is not my job to provide resources for other departments and I think Deputy Cotter must acknowledge that. All he has to do is look at the budget every year to see that we have increased the resources right across the board in every area of activity.
It is the Minister's job to ensure that money is spent in the best possible way.
Absolutely. We are constantly co-ordinating our activities. There has been constant liaison on the prison service between the Department of Justice, the Department of Education and the Department of Health as well as in particular areas with various professional bodies and, where necessary, with health boards in ensuring that we provide an adequate range of services for prisoners. Deputy Cotter has given us a percentage of people under a specific age. That means he is taking into account all those people who may not necessarily be in confined prisons. We must have proper comparisons.
Does the Minister disagree with those figures?
I do not know the Deputy's source. If the question asked for specific information we would provide it. The Deputy must take into account that we have over 100 people employed as teachers in the prison service. That is a large number of people and it represents a commitment on the education side.
What about looking outside the prison sevice?
There are many other professions involved and we also have training units around the country for young people by way of trying to rehabilitate them, get them away from crime, put them to useful work, give them proper training, the opportunity to acquire skills and, one would hope, divert them away from crime.
May I put to the Minister who claims that tremendous work has been done in this area that it is not showing in the results in terms of the number of prisoners who are going back time and again to prison? Would he accept that one of the first steps that must be taken is the reactivation of the prison building programme? That would help the prison services to move away from the old Victorian and overcrowded institutions that simply cannot accommodate any proper rehabilitative programmes. Secondly, would the Minister agree that there is need for a major expansion and investment in the area of probationary and supervisory services as opposed to the simple lock up system that is being used time and again as the mainstay of our prison system?
I think Deputy McCartan is failing to acknowledge the tremendous amount of resources that have been put into providing a modern new prison at Wheatfield, the extensive resources that have been provided to upgrade Mountjoy, — there are improvements to the women's prison in addition to various other improvements being carried out there.
All done by the previous Government.
It was not all done by the previous Government. We have completed Wheatfield Prison. The previous Government spent £14 million in designing five prisons but they did not build any of them. We had to finish Wheatfield and if that £14 million was put towards the building or upgrading of another service it would be much to the benefit of the prison population. We have committed resources and the probation and welfare service——
Which were intended to be for juveniles.
If we did not put them in prison they would be at large.
And now there is no place for juvenile offenders.
I have heard Deputy Barrett, the Deputy's colleague, speak about this on television, I accept what he has said and I commend him for his attitude. We must contain the prison population and the crime element. They must be put behind bars when that is necessary so there must be flexibility to respond to any given situation at any given time. I commend the probationary and welfare service on the tremendous work they do.
Expand them.
If you look at the record of the Minister for Justice and the Department of Justice over the past four years you will see that there have been more innovative ideas, more new systems, including the Whitaker report, brought into place to create a major new environment for the prison population, to try to bring people to their normal senses so that they may live a proper life among the normal community.
I want to bring in Deputy Garland.
The Minister has admitted that a large percentage of the prison population are recidivists. Would the Minister agree that this indicates either that there is inadequate rehabilitative treatment in prisons or that the social and economic policies of this and many previous Governments are responsible?
I would not accept that the social and economic policies of any Government are creating an opportunity for the crime element to succeed. We must accept that the criminal element is created by people who probably for one reason or another find themselves in a situation where they resort to this type of life. I think Deputy Garland took me out of context. I did not say that a large percentage of people go back to prison, I said a significant proportion do. We must accept that this is happening not just in Ireland but all over the world. We are doing our utmost to grapple with the problem, to reduce the incidence of recidivism and get people to live normal and crime-free lives in peace and harmony among the community.
Would the Minister not accept that as things stand — whether he likes to admit it or not — there is a great deal of concern about the increased level of crime particularly involving young juvenile offenders? Would he not agree also that the present system of either detention, bail or whatever is not working and that we need to apply more resources, whether in terms of our educational system, of changes in our laws or by way of making parents more responsible for the activities of 13 and 14 year olds? Would he agree that it is the responsibility of a parent to take account of the activities of their children? And that it is not acceptable that we can read in our newspapers that 13 and 14 year olds are breaking into homes in the middle of the night and engaging in acts of vandalism? Would the Minister not agree also that we need to change our laws and apply more investment in the whole area of detention centres so that when we have young offenders in these centres they will get the help they need? Would the Minister accept, too, that the parents of these children should get the help they need because otherwise young offenders will return to a home where parents are not accepting their responsibility, and the law is not taking that into account?
I agree with much of what Deputy Barrett has said but we must not underestimate the tremendous work being done in the prisons.
I am not underestimating it.
I would like to pay special tribute to the prison officers who, in co-operation with the staff members of the other support agencies in prisons, play a vital role in the achievement of all the objectives of the prison system, including the rehabilitative effort. While the prison officers' essential task is to maintain safe custody and control, they also play a central part in all of the efforts being made to encourage the offender to turn away from criminal behaviour on his release. Apart from that the expenditure on the support services is quite considerable and I have detailed this already. I accept what Deputy Barrett has said, that we must constantly change, improve and reform our laws and reinforce the laws. I accept, too, that parents have a special responsibility in ensuring that their children are under proper control, get proper leadership and are made responsible for crimes they carry out against innocent people. We are making major efforts in this area——
You are doing nothing about it.
——and providing vast resources in every area of need whether in education, health, justice or in the prison service. Resources will be allocated as they become available.
Where are they?
That disposes of questions for today.
