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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 2 Jul 1991

Vol. 410 No. 2

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers (Resumed). - Apartheid in South Africa.

Roger T. Garland

Ceist:

14 Mr. Garland asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will outline the Government's intentions with regard to the recent paper published by the liaison group of national anti-apartheid movements in the countries of the European Community dated 10 June 1991; his views on whether there is as yet no agreed mechanism by which a democratic consitution could be adopted in South Africa, nor any agreement on the form such a constitution could take; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Eric J. Byrne

Ceist:

28 Mr. Byrne asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will give details of (a) the efforts which have been made by the Irish Government in support of the United Nations High Commission on Refugees' attempts to reach agreement with the South African Government for a general amnesty for all exiles and for financial assistance to facilitate the return of such refugees to South Africa and (b) the initiatives which the Government have taken at EC, UN and other international fora to secure the speedy release of political prisoners in South Africa and to seek the repeal of legislation designed to circumscribe political activity such as the Internal Security Act; whether he supports the establishment of a constituent assembly in South Africa in the light of the Namibian experience as part of the transitional process in South Africa; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Emmet Stagg

Ceist:

32 Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs whether, in the light of the recent decision by the United States to lift sanctions on South Africa, the Irish Government are prepared to maintain sanctions until the whole apparatus of apartheid is removed and the situation of one man one vote comes into being; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 14, 28 and 32 together.

The liaison group mentioned in the first question addresses to the President of the Council of Ministers at least once during the term of each European Community Presidency a memorandum on the situation in South Africa. These memoranda receive careful consideration in the formulation of policy in my Department.

The South African parties committed to a peaceful solution are broadly agreed on the need for a multi-party forum in which negotiations on a new constitution can proceed. Agreement has not yet been reached on how the negotiations should be structured, and on what institutional arrangements should apply as the transition to a fully democratic society takes place. These are matters for the parties themselves to determine. Ireland, together with its European Community partners, will continue, however, to press for an early start to negotiations on a new constitution for a united, democratic and non-racial South Africa.

There have been some very positive developments in South Africa over the recent past. The legislative steps to repeal the major remaining pillars of apartheid have been taken by parliament, and the way is now open for negotiations on a new South Africa. The Government welcome the repeal of the Group Areas Act and the Land Acts as well as the Population Registration Act. We also welcome the repeal or amendment of a number of provisions of the Internal Security Act.

There remain, however, obstacles in the way of opening substantive constitutional negotiations, notably delays in the release of all political prisoners and in the return of South African exiles from abroad. These are matters which the Taoiseach discussed with President De Klerk when he visited Ireland in April. Subsequently, the Twelve have been in frequent contact with the South African Government on these various issues and have made known our concern at the negative effects of delays on the creation of a climate conductive to negotiations. On 28-29 June at the European Council in Luxembourg, the Twelve issued a Declaration on South Africa again expressing the hope that a rapid solution can be found to the problem of political prisoners and to that of the return of exiles.

The Community has also been in touch with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees on the question of the repatriation of South African exiles and will continue to promote an agreement satisfactory to all concerned. The Government have already provided £25,000 last year to the UNHCR's Special Programme for this purpose. We naturally wish to see that programme become operational as early as possible.

While the South African Government clearly have the primary responsibility for law and order, all parties have an obligation to work for tolerance and to seek ways to bring the violence to an end. I was heartened by the results of the 22 June conference on violence under the aegis of Church and business leaders, but just how fragile the situation is was demonstrated by further violent incidents only a few days later. We believe nevertheless that the constructive attitudes evident at that meeting offer hope that the violence can be tackled effectively. The Luxembourg Declaration also reiterated the concern of the Twelve about the violence in South Africa and called on the South African Government to spare no effort to uphold law and public order. The Declaration noted the consultations on this grave problem and called on all parties to display moderation.

Irish policy on sanctions is the subject of consultations within the Twelve. The overall objective of the Twelve is a united, democratic, non-racial South Africa and we have set out a number of specific steps which we wish to see taken in pursuit of that objective. As these steps are taken the sanctions which we have applied to bring about change are modified accordingly. There have already been positive developments over the past year and a half and we are ready to make further modifications as this process continues.

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply in which he admitted that there are many problems outstanding in South Africa. With regard to sanctions, does the Minister agree that no further amelioration of the sanctions should be permitted until substantial progress has been made? Would the Minister state, if the European Community wish to relax the sanctions without further progress having been made, if Ireland will take a separate stance on the matter?

The sanctions have never been regarded by the Government as immutable but rather were intended to influence the South African Government to change their policies and abolish apartheid. They have now firmly embarked upon that road and it is appropriate, as I have already said, that policy be reviewed in the light of those developments.

In relation to Question No. 28, which is being taken with Question No. 14, may I ask the Minister to outline, as the question asks him to do, the specific steps the Government have taken to press for assistance for the return of exiles to South Africa and for the release of political prisoners there? The Minister must know that there is still a considerable number of political prisoners in South Africa and that the South African Government are using all sorts of devices to hide the fact that these detainees are political prisoners, even to the extent of actually moving prisoners around and hiding their identity. Would the Minister indicate the specific steps the Government are taking, given that the Irish Government met with President De Klerk in Ireland and presumably, although we were not told in this House, got some undertakings from President De Klerk in regard to these matters.

Deputy De Rossa should have regard to the record of this House because at the time of the visit of President De Klerk the matter was discussed in the House and as far as I can recall it was clearly said that the Taoiseach raised the question of political prisoners with President De Klerk, who went into very great detail about what his Government were trying to do. He spoke about the difficulties he was experiencing in the classification of persons in prison as to whether they were ordinary criminals or political criminals. The Deputy will also recall full well that the EC, in which we play a full part on this issue, has at every opportunity raised the question of political prisoners with everybody and anybody who has any say or influence with the South African Government. As I said in my reply, we see this issue as an obstacle to the talks getting under way in a meaningful way.

It is very important for us to remember that while it is always useful to hear the European Community's attitude it is only contextual. This is the Oireachtas and we are here to listen to the Irish Government's foreign policy. On this point, given that the Minister referred to the EC position, it is well known that the Danish and Irish position differs from the British position. In his reply the Minister stated that it was well known that the Irish Government's policy on sanctions was one to seek to influence attitudes to apartheid. I seem to recall it being on the record of this House that the purpose of sanctions was to abolish apartheid.

That is right.

Should we read from the Minister's reply that there is a change in position on the part of the Irish Government and that they will in fact consider the removal of sanctions before the achievement of one person one vote in the territories referred to?

First, with regard to the earlier comments made by Deputy Higgins on Ireland's policy on various issues, as we are full members of European Political Co-operation, and decisions on such matters can only be arrived at by consensus, the Deputy will be readily able to understand what our policy is on any matter if there is European Community consensus on the issue. The Deputy should also be aware of the fact that at present we have an intergovernmental conference taking place on political union and part of the remit of the intergovernmental conference is to consider areas where we can come closer together on common, foreign and security policies.

Mr. Douglas Hurd speaks for you then?

Having cleared up the air on that issue, let me say that the objective of the policy of the Twelve remains the same, that is the total abolition of apartheid.

Is there no such thing as Irish Government foreign policy?

The policy of the Twelve remains the same — that is the total abolition of apartheid.

Here we go again.

There has been quite a number of policy statements to that effect made on this issue since early 1985. As early as 1985, and we were in full support of this, the Twelve issued a list of steps they wished to see the South African Government take in pursuit of that particular objective. These were — if I may mention them very briefly — the unconditional release of Nelson Mandela and all other political prisoners; the unbanning of all political organisations; the lifting of the state of emergency; the end to detention without trial and forced relocation; a firm commitment by the South African Government to end apartheid and to dismantle discriminatory legislation; and finally, negotiations with representatives of the majority population.

It should be recognised, and I believe it is by a great majority of people, that since the advent to office of President De Klerk the South African Government have gone a long way towards fulfilling most of the demands of the Twelve. I accept that action is still required in respect of political prisoners, detention without trial — but we must accept the reality that considerable progress has been achieved by President De Klerk in his efforts to dismantle apartheid.

Let us make some progress on other questions. I think the House will agree that progress at Question Time today has been particularly sluggish.

Yes, a Cheann Comhairle.

It is always so on foreign affairs questions because we need a committee on foreign affairs.

Let us try to expedite the matter.

It always is slow because of the length of the replies to questions on foreign affairs.

It is rather late.

It is only through you, Sir, as the guardian of not only our time but our privileges as Members of the Oireachtas that I as spokesperson for foreign affairs ask questions in the Irish Parliament of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. If there be a debate within the context of the European Community as to when sanctions should be eroded, will the Minister take the position that it is the Irish Government's view that sanctions should not be removed until one person, one vote prevails?

I made the Irish foreign policy on this particular issue exceptionally clear in reply to the last supplementary question from Deputy Higgins. The policy of the Twelve is a policy which Ireland has been pursuing within the Twelve. That is the position and the Deputy should understand it.

Holy Ghost like.

With regard to our attitude in the coming months to other decisions that may have to be made by the Twelve on matters of sanctions or anything else, the Deputy will, of course, have regard to other meetings in the past — in particular I am thinking of a meeting in February of last year when Ireland made its point of view well known when it felt that that was necessary. The Deputy need have no doubt whatsoever — at least I do not think he should have — that Ireland will do the same if it feels it is right and proper to do so.

Let us come to deal with Question No. 15. I observe that it may have been the intention of the Minister to reply to Question No. 15 together with Priority Question No. 12.

It was indeed.

We can deal with both now. We will deal with Question No. 15 in the name of Deputy Ruairí Quinn and we will permit questions of course from Deputy Nora Owen in respect of her Priority Question No. 12.

I had other questions on foreign policy.

They may not be taken with these questions.

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