Deputy John O'Donoghue was in possession. I understand that Deputy O'Donoghue wishes to share his time with Deputy Brian Cowen. There remains, between them, ten minutes.
Private Members' Business. - Education Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
With the consent of the House, could I share my remaining time with Deputy Cullimore?
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before I concluded on 23 October I was dealing with the extraordinary contribution of Deputy Mac Giolla who stated that the present Minister is the worst Minister for Education in the history of the State. I proceeded to explain to Deputy Mac Giolla how incorrect he was. I am sorry he is not here tonight to listen to the remainder of the lesson; but perhaps he has heard enough. I said the Minister has made enormous achievements in Irish education. I will now proceed to outline other features of her achievements since becoming Minister for Education.
One of the most important questions in Irish education today is that of remedial teaching. Remedial teaching has not been seriously addressed hitherto by politicians or Ministers. However, the present Minister has changed that. She has increased the number of remedial teachers by 80 this year and, hopefully, the number will be increased by a further 80 next year. This is more than double the number of remedial posts created by the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition between 1983 and 1987. There is a need to recognise that there are children attending schools who have learning difficulties. If it can be discovered at an early stage that a young person has learning disabilities something can be done for that child. For far too long the problem was not recognised at an early stage and those children had literacy problems in later life. I hope we will continue to look at this disadvantage and help those concerned in the way the Minister is doing.
The Minister has also created 325 additional teaching posts in primary schools in disadvantaged areas. In addition, 120 schools at post-primary level which were deemed to be disadvantaged have obtained additional teachers. Speaking about the disadvantaged areas, the Minister has increased three-fold funding for primary schools in these areas. The junior certificate, which is designed to cater for all options, is a welcome innovation and major reforms in the senior cycle are now proposed. In short, over the last four years we have seen revolutionary changes in Irish education.
Many commentators will agree that not since the days of the late Minister for Education, Donogh O'Malley, have we seen such a revolutionary and innovative Minister for Education. Her achievements in the last four years have been considerable and they will stand the test of time. In this regard I look forward to the Green Paper on Education, followed by a White Paper on Education and an Education Bill, which I have no doubt will be acceptable to all reasonable people in this House.
I would like to refer to the extraordinary statement by Deputy Deenihan that Fianna Fáil have a very poor record when it comes to introducing legislation in the education area. Ironically, Deputy Deenihan had to go back to the days of Cumann na nGael to boast to the House of the achievements of Fine Gael in the area of education legislation. However, the record speaks for itself. It was Fianna Fáil in the sixties under the late Donogh O'Malley who introduced free education and who, for the first time, gave the people in a disadvantaged position, people who were not wealthy, the opportunity to be educated. How can Deputy Deenihan honestly come before the House and say that Fianna Fáil have a poor record in the area of education? If he were to look honestly at the achievements of this Minister over the last four years he could not but conclude that we have entered a new era in Irish education. The foundation stones have been laid where the disadvantaged and those with learning disabilities have been recognised, perhaps the first time, in a realistic way.
In conclusion it is my sincere wish that, in the Green Paper and White Paper on Education, the Minister will consider seriously the position of the mentally handicapped. I hope the Green Paper, the White Paper and the new Education Bill will recognise their place in society, their need to be educated and the valuable contribution they too can make to Irish life.
I am particularly pleased to have an opportunity to participate in this debate on the Education Bill, 1991, introduced by Fine Gael. This Bill lacks detail and imagination. It makes no provision for facilitating change. The introduction of the Bill at this stage seems to have more to do with political opportunism than a real desire to promote consultation between all those interested in education.
A comparison must be made between this Bill and the approach of the Minister for Education. The Minister proposes to introduce a Green Paper, a discussion document that will address all aspects of education on a consultative basis. Real change in education will only come about through consultation and dialogue. There have been numerous examples of this during the present Minister's term of office, such as the Primary Curriculum Review Body and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. Instead of introducing a Bill void of consultation and understanding of the real problems facing our students and teachers, the Minister has concentrated her efforts on removing the many anomalies that remain from the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition.
In my own constituency of Wexford the conditions in many of the primary schools were deplorable. Between 1978 and 1990 many of these schools were proposed for construction and planning — Piercetown, Duncannon, Kilmyshal, Rathnure, Kiltealy, Castledockrell, Danescastle, Baymurn, Glenbrien, Crossabeg, Ballycullane and Kilrane.
And more to come.
I have another list but I will refrain from referring to it.
The Deputy can circulate it later.
That is an example of the Minister's approach to solving the many problems facing our students and teachers. Through the Programme for National Recovery and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress the Government have recognised that education is the key to the success of our nation. Every effort has been made to involve all sectors and where anomalies exist action has been taken to correct them. Examples of this include the allocation of 60 posts to post-primary schools in disadvantaged areas in 1990.
I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but I would be grateful if he would bring his speech to a close.
Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.
I did not intend to cut you off so quickly, Deputy. You could have added a sentence or two.
He could have rounded it off.
The Chair is not as severe as that.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tá mé ag roinnt ama leis an Teachta McGinley agus an Teachta Cotter.
Ceart go leor.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Cuirim failte roimh an Bille seo mar taispeánann sé go bhfuil An Teachta Jim Higgins agus Fine Gael ag obair go dian agus go bhfuil siad i ndairíre faoin oideachas. Tá sé beagánin ait go raibh Teachtaí ó Fhianna Fáil ag déanamh comhgháirdas leis an Aire de bharr an “Green Paper” atá le teacht cé gur chaith siad ceithre bliana ag iarraidh an Green Paper a thabhairt os ár gcomhair. Ach tá an seanfhocal fíor fós —“an té nach bhfuil láidir, ní mór dó/di bheith glic”— tá sé i bhfad níos fearr bheith ag cur milleáin ar an mBille seo nuair nach bhfuil aon Bhille agat féin.
In welcoming this Bill, I express disappointment that Fianna Fáil did not acknowledge this Bill as a great contribution by Deputy Jim Higgins to legislation. He has produced this Bill without the benefit of a Green Paper or a White Paper. The Bill could be amended if people had so desired. Saying it is inflexible and that it does not do this or that is a sign that Members rushed in to make their speeches without reading the Bill.
Of course, the Bill can be used as an opportunity to advance education but unfortunately the system in Dáil Éireann means that the Government will oppose any Bill from this side of the House. I regret that the Minister has not produced a Green Paper after four years in office and therefore we will not have a Bill from that side of the House for some time. The Minister made use of alliteration to damn this Bill, saying it was arid among other things. However, perhaps I could say it was arid alliteration that she used and describe similarly her efforts at producing a Green Paper as inept, inert, indifferent, inexplicable, inefficacious and above all inexcusable. The Minister cannot have it both ways; she cannot sit on the fence and at the same time criticise those who got off the fence.
A Green Paper would highlight the problems that need to be solved in education. One of the Government back-benchers mentioned that Deputy Higgins had stolen the Minister's clothes, but I find it strange that the clothes which were not even put on display could be stolen, as the ideas for the Green Paper were still in somebody's mind. Deputy Higgins could not have stolen any ideas because there were none before him.
The problem of large classes is still a national scandal. It will not matter what else we do if we do not tackle this problem. Praising the Minister for the wonderful improvements she has made in the pupil-teacher ratio is a bit hollow, as obviously some Members who are leaving the House have not heard of the marches by parents and teachers throughout the country over the worsening pupil-teacher ratio in our schools. Indeed, I worked at the coalface of education in an eight-teacher school. This is the ideal because there is one teacher per class but our position was disimproved when we lost a teacher and went down to seven teachers. Anyone who ever put their nose inside a school would know that having seven teachers for eight classes leads to problems — classes doubling up or split classes. Certainly the children do not gain from that so-called advancement. No matter how her back-benchers canonise the Minister, the facts still stand. The latest statistics on class sizes from the Department of Education are a scandal: 6,367 classes have fewer than 29 pupils; however almost double that number, 11,160 classes have 30 or more pupils, and in the remaining group 600 classes have 40 or more pupils. There is very little advantage for a Minister to talk about improving the position of education if we can tolerate the fact that there are 600 classes with more than 40 pupils. I have stood in the classroom for more than 30 years so I know exactly what I am talking about. I hope that the present Minister, if she remains in her partfolio and is not elevated to higher plains, will tackle the problems of large classes.
I share Deputy O'Leary's concern about remedial teachers. As I have said time and again, the intelligent pupil will survive and prosper in spite of teachers but the slow learner needs the skill and help of trained teachers. I give the Minister credit for introducing more remedial teachers into the schools. However, a great many schools in Dublin seem to be getting the greater proportion of remedial teachers. While I realise that large schools can have problems, smaller schools can also have problems. Many schools in rural Ireland have problems and they deserve to get their share in the allocation of remedial teachers. Schools can share the services of a remedial teacher, as is happening. However, sometimes the rural schools feel they are being ignored and that the city schools are getting the biggest slice of the cake.
I would like the Minister to discuss the issue of discipline in any forthcoming Green Paper. The lack of discipline is causing havoc in many schools around the country. While I accept it is not the in-thing to talk about corporal punishment, I think the threat of corporal punishment often had a very steadying effect on unruly pupils. The absence of discipline in schools has made life very difficult for teachers who are drifting into middle or old age, because they were used to a different style of education.
I wish to refer to teacher training. We have very good colleges who specialise in the art of training teachers. I did what was supposed to be a very good H. Dip. course in Maynooth but I found that the amount of time on actual teaching practice was insufficient. Things may have improved since then but much more emphasis should be put on the art of getting the information across. It is all right to have an honours degree but if one cannot communicate, the pupils will not gain. That is not a reflection on secondary school teachers who do marvellous work, but is a reflection on the Higher Diploma in Education course.
Finally, I hope the Minister brings out a Green Paper on Education. If it does not appear quickly, I hope the Government would consider accepting this Bill, which gives scope for a major advance. As procrastination is the thief of time, so also is procrastination the thief of Green Papers.
Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Bhille seo. Is dócha gur ócáid stairiúil í seo sa Dáil, gurb é so an chéad Bhille oideachais, go bhfios domsa, a tugadh os comhair na Dála le mórán de bhlianta, b'fhéidir don chéad uair riamh, agus sílim go bhfuil an Teachta Higgins le moladh as é sin a dhéanamh, agus, chomh maith, as an obair agus an saothar agus an dúthracht atá curtha isteach aige maidir leis an Bhille chuimsitheach oideachais seo. Tá mórán athruithe i ndiaidh a theacht ar chúrsaí oideachais le blianta anuas. Fiú amháin sa tréimhse atá caite ag an Teachta de Brún agus na Teachtaí eile sa Teach ag plé le cúrsaí oideachais, tá a lán athruithe tar éis tarlú.
Níl an teastas bunscoile ann a thuilleadh, an Primary Cert, gurb éigean dúinn go léir a dhéanamh blianta ó shin. Tá saoroideachas ann anois, nó tá sé in ainm a bheith saor. Tá pobalscoileanna curtha ar bun; tá saorthaisteal curtha ar fáil do dhaltaí; agus tá an Teastas Sóisearach ag teacht isteach. Tá na hathruithe seo uilig ag tarlú ó bhliain go bliain agus ní raibh deis cheart le blianta fada cúrsaí oideachais a phlé anseo sa Dáil. Ar an ábhar sin sílim go bhfuil ár moladh tuillte ag an Teachta Higgins as deis a thabhairt dúinn é sin a dhéanamh.
Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Aire coicís ó shin nuair a tugadh an Bille os comhair na Dála agus caithfidh mé a rá gur chuir sé brón orm go raibh an méid a bhí le rá aici i dtaobh an Bhille chomh diúltach sin. Mar atá ráite, tá Bille Oideachais geallta aici féin. Tá Páipéar Uaithne agus Páipéar Bán geallta ach níor tháinig siad go fóill. Deirtear linn anois go mbeidh sé anseo roimh an Nollaig. Chífidh muid cad é a tharlóidh. Sa Bhille seo tá an bhéim ar bhunoideachas agus ar iar-bhunoideachas. Sílim go n-aontaíonn gach duine go bhfuil an bunoideachas thar a bheith tábhachtach, mar go gcaithfidh gach dalta dul tríd an chóras bunoideachais. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go gcuirfí acmhainní a ndóthain isteach na chóras bunoideachais mar go bhfuil sé chomh tábhachtach sin.
Más rud é go n-éiríonn deacrachtaí sa chóras — bíonn deacrachtaí ag an dalta go minic — láiríonn na fadhbanna sin iad féin sa chóras bunoideachais agus, mar sin de, múinteoirí feabhais agus seirbhísí eile, ba chóir go mbeadh siad ar fáil sa chóras bunoideachais mar, go minic, bíonn seirbhísí cosúil le múinteoireacht fheabhais agus comhairleoirí eile anmhall nó rómhall nuair a thig siad go dtí an córas iar-bhunoideachais. Sílim gur ceann de na fadhbanna móra atá ag múinteoirí i láthair ná huaire ná an uimhir dhaltaí atá sna ranganna. Tá an coibhneas idir daltaí agus múinteoirí sa tír seo níos airde, is dócha, ná in aon tír eile sa Chomhphobal agus cothaíonn sé sin deacrachtaí do na múinteoirí. Sílim anois, ó tharla go bhfuil uimhir na ndaltaí scoile ag dul i laghad agus go bhfuil an daonra ag titim, de réir na staitisiticí agus an eolais atá againn, gur chóir don Aire úsáid a bhaint as an titim sa daonra faoi choinne an PTR, nó an coibhneas idir daltaí agus múinteoirí a ísliú. Tá sé anard i láthair na huaire. Tá sé ag cur isteach go mór ar mhúinteoirí agus sílim gur chóir iarracht níos mó a dhéanamh chun é a ísliú.
Is é an dara rud atá ag cur isteach ar na múinteoirí agus ar an chóras oideachais ná an córas smachta. Luaigh an Teachta de Brún seanfhocal ansin, "An té nach bhfuil láidir ní mór dó bheith glic", agus tá seanfhocal eile — agus tá mé cinnte go dtuigfidh an tAire Stáit thall ansin é, is cinnte gur chuala sé cheana é —"Ní bhíonn an rath ach mar a mbíonn an smacht". Tá aithne agam ar go leor múinteoirí; chaith mé féin beagnach fiche bliain i mbun scoile, agus nuair a chastar mo chairde orm anois atá ag teagasc go fóill, is é an scéal a bhíonn acu go léir ná go bhfuil siad ag fanacht leis an am gur féidir leo éirí as. Níl said sásta fanacht go dtí go mbeidh cúig bliana is seasca slánaithe acu. Chomh luath agus tá cúig bliana agus tríocha curtha isteach acu tá go leor acu ag iarraidh éirí as. Is comhartha é sin ar an strus agus ar an bhrú atá ar mhúinteoirí i láthair na huaire.
Deirtear go bhfuil an t-oideachas saor. Ní shílim go bhfuil sé saor. Tá boird bhainistíochta agus múinteoirí ar fud na tíre agus ní amháin go mbíonn siad ag teagasc i rith an lae, ach gach tráthnóna caithfidh siad a bheith páirteach in imeachtaí chun airgead a chur ar fáil faoi choinne na scoileanna a reachtáil. Bíonn crannchuir agus rincí, silver circles, bazaars agus rudaí mar sin acu le hairgead a chur ar fáil le go bhfaigheadh na daltaí oideachas.
Bhí mé ag caint le príomhoide scoile Gaeltachta seachtain ó shin, scoil cheathrar oidí, agus dúirt sé liom go bhfuil siad £3,000 i bhfiacha ag an bhanc. Sílim nach aon eisceacht é sin, go bhfuil an chuid is mó de na bunscoileanna ar fud na tíre i bhfiacha agus go bhfuil na bainc ag reachtáil an chórais oideachas in ionad na Roinne Oideachais. Ar an ábhar sin tá sé ríthábhachtach go mbeidh níos mó airgid agus acmhainní á gcur isteach sa chóras bunoideachais.
Mar urlabhraí Ghaeltachta agus mar fhear Ghaeltachta, ba mhaith liom an deis seo a ghlacadh agus a insint go bhfuil deacrachtaí ar leith sna scoileanna Gaeltachta. Bhí mé ag cruinniú aréir i mo dháilcheantar, áit a raibh múinteoirí, tuismitheoirí agus bainisteoirí i láthair agus imní an-mhór orthu. Tá paróiste amháin sa chontae agus chaill beagnach gach scoil sa pharóiste sin múinteoirí le cúpla bliain anuas. Tá an uimhir dhaltaí ag titim ach tá an uimhir mhúinteoirí ag titim freisin. Sílim gur chóir go dtuigfeadh an tAire, an Roinn agus an Rialtas go bhfuil deacrachtaí speisialta agus deacrachtaí ar leith sna scoileanna Gaeltachta i láthair na huaire. Táan saol ag athrú sa Ghaeltacht agus tá an-chuid de na daltaí a thagann ar scoil anois, go minic ní bhíonn an Ghaeilge mar theanga dhúchais ag na tuismitheoirí. B'fhéidir go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag duine amháin agus go minic nuair a thagann na daltaí ar scoil ní bhíonn an Ghaeilge acu. Ceann de na rudaí a chaithfidh múinteoirí na Gaeltachta a dhéanamh sa chéad chúpla bliain nuair a bhíonn na daltaí seo ar scoil ná an-chuid ama a chaitheamh chun an teanga a theagasc go maith dóibh.
An dara deacracht atá ag na scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht ná an easpa mhór téacsleabhar. Tá ganntanas mór de théacsleabhair fhiúntacha agus théacsleabhair fhóirstineacha sna scoileanna Gaeltachta. I mo chontae féin — agus tá sé ag tarlú i nGaeltachtaí eile — tá na múinteoirí tar éis grúpaí oibre a chur ar fáil, grúpaí oibre a bhfuil sé mar chuspóir acu téacsleabhair a chur ar fáil agus a fhoilsiú agus iad a thabhairt do na múinteoirí agus na daltaí. Tá na múinteoirí ag tabhairt a gcuid ama féin, tar éis na scoile, don obair an-tábhachtach seo. Sin cuid de na deacrachtaí atá sna bunscoileanna Gaeltachta. Ag an am céanna, tá siad ag cailliúint múinteoirí. Ceann de na comharthaí dóchais a fheicim féin san oideachas ná na Gaelscoileanna atá curtha ar bun ar fud na tíre: i mBaile Átha Cliath, i gCorcaigh, i gCeatharlach, i Muineachán agus i ngach dáilcheantar. Is comhartha dóchais é, mar a dúirt mé, agus tá lúcháir orm go bhfuil sé sin ag tarlú. Tá súil agam go rachaidh siad ó neart go neart agus go mbeidh tacaíocht an Tí seo agus an Rialtais le fáil acu sin i gcónaí.
Ach is é an pointe a ba mhaith liom a dhéanamh ná go bhfuil an coibhneas idir daltaí agus múinteoirí sna Gaelscoileanna níos fearr ná mar atá sa Ghaeltacht. Sna Gaelscoileanna ar fud na tíre tá múinteoir thar an chuota i ngach ceann acu. Tá siad ag déanamh obair thábhachtach. Tá an Ghaeilge le teagasc acusan do na daltaí chomh maith. Ba mhaith liom a iarraidh ar an Aire agus ar an Rialtas breathnú go báúil ar iarratas mhúinteoirí na Gaeltachta, go mbeadh an coibhneas céanna sna scoileanna Gaeltachta agus atá sna Gaelscoileanna mar tá obair dheacair le déanamh ag múinteoirí na Gaeltachta.
D'inis mé cad é atá le déanamh acu agus sílim gur chóir don Aire breathnú ar an chás sin agus, idir seo agus an chéad scoilbhliain eile, go ndéanfadh sí socrú go mbeadh an coibhneas céanna sna scoileanna Gaeltachta agus atá sna Gaelscoileanna. Is cinnte go dtabharfaidh sé cuidiú mór don obair atá á déanamh chun an teanga agus an cultúr agus an traidisiún a choinneáil beo agus iad a chur ar aghaidh chuig an chéad ghlúin eile.
Mar fhocal scoir, ba mhaith liom ár mbuíochas a thabhairt don Teachta Higgins as an Bhille a thabhairt isteach. Tá an t-oideachas an-tábhachtach i saol na tíre. Caitheann an Roinn Oideachais £1.3 bhilliún gach bliain. Tá lúcháir orm go raibh deis agam an cúpla pointe sin a dhéanamh. Tá súil agam go mbeidh deis againn gach bliain as seo amach tagairt agus plé a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí oideachais anseo sa Dáil, mar go bhfuil sé chomh tábhachtach sin d'aos óg na tíre seo agus don tír i gcoitinne.
This Bill is history-making since I understand it is the first time, since the foundation of the State, somebody has had the energy, intelligence and foresight to introduce this type of Bill in the House. I congratulate Deputy Jim Higgins on being that person. The Bill speaks volumes for the man in that, in the short time he has been spokesperson on education for our party, he has had this truly remarkable achievement. I was both surprised and disappointed at the attitude the Minister adopted — dog in the manager; one could advance all sorts of descriptions of the way she handled the debate two weeks ago. Certainly one would not have thought it was a speech of a Minister for Education. Nonetheless, that is what we have to deal with. For example, the Minister said the Bill lacked philosophy. It does not set out to be a philosophical document. It simply aims to provide the legislative framework within which to deal with primary and post-primary education, nothing more, nothing less; there is no room in the document for philosophy. If I have a chance later perhaps I will talk about the Minister's philosophy and the measures we have had of her philosophy to date.
In its 18 sections the Bill provides a comprehensive framework for dealing with primary and post-primary education. The provisions of section 4 clearly define the functions of the Minister. I might add that our Minister is a Minister for ad hocery. She does not work within any legislative framework whatsoever. Rather she issues letters, directives, circulars and cheques to schools all over the country for which there is absolutely no legislative basis. Nobody really has to obey her directives. I must confess to having worked in a school myself and therefore would know, so I predict the only reason people do obey her directives is that, otherwise, she might refuse to issue a cheque. She would have power to do so. Surely that does not constitute proper and correct procedures to be adopted in education.
Section 5 gives the Minister power to make regulations in relation to primary and post-primary education. The provisions of section 6 deal with the boards of management of schools, how they should be constituted and so on, while section 7 provides similar provisions with regard to the Curriculum Review Board, stipulating their membership and functions. Section 8 provides for regulations regarding curricula for primary and post-primary schools while section 9 deals comprehensively with the Examinations Board. Section 10 deals with the staffing of schools. Sections 11 and 12 deal with the functions of teaching staff. Section 13 deals with codes of conduct for pupils, section 14 with the functions of school principals. Section 15 refers to parents' associations. From my experience of teaching the provisions of section 16 are extremely important in that they deal with an independent Inspectorate of Education. Section 17 deals with the provision for special needs and section 18 with religion in schools.
Therefore, it will clearly be seen to be a very comprehensive document. The Minister's attitude to the Bill left much to be desired. She could have been quite positive about it. For example, she could have said it was a marvellous achievement. She could have said that Deputy Jim Higgins — who does not have recourse to the kinds of people on whom the Minister can call, experts in the Department and so on — had produced a very comprehensive document. The Minister could have said the Bill was full of good, honest endeavour, encompassing a number of good ideas. Seeing that there is no other Bill before the House at this time — and none on the Statute Book — she could have acknowledged that, while it might have short-comings — it would be surprising if there were none — its provisions could have been changed, by way of consultation between Deputy Higgins and herself in ways she might have wanted and then be enacted.
Certainly the Minister did not take that line but the very opposite one. For example, she was of the opinion that the Bill was absolutely no good. The Minister will be more or less alone in that view because most people would acknowledge that it constitutes a fine piece of work on which its author ought be congratulated. For example, its provisions introduce accountability to this House. It is interesting to note that schools nationwide receive quite a large amount of money from the Department annually. Having worked in education I have no doubt but that they spend it wisely and well. However, they never have to give an account of how they spent that money. Members of this House must ask schools and of course do not have to obtain answers, in an effort to ascertain how the money is spent. The Minister certainly cannot say for sure how the money will have been spent. It will clearly be seen that there is complete lack of accountability for the money spent by the Minister on primary and post-primary education annually. The only thing we know for certain is that there is insufficient of it available. That is the information fed back to us but no other. Surely accountability is a very important principle and it is time it was introduced into education?
When one talks of accountability teachers may well get the wrong impression. For example, they may think that the heavy hand is descending on them, that Members of this House are anxious to shackle them in some way, to watch every move they make, as it were, to have an eye to the keyhole while they teach and so on. That is not the kind of accountability about which I am talking. Teachers may be worried about the inspectorate. From my experience of post-primary education there is no inspectorate as such. I frequently telephoned the Department of Education requesting a Minister to visit my school in Carrickmacross and discuss with me elements of the teaching of mathematics. It was rarely that I got a positive response because there was nobody available. The position is the same today and will be the same tomorrow. If a teacher needs to have a discussion with an expert regarding the changing nature of pupils and subjects, there is no inspectorate. Teachers might well feel that an inspectorate would be heavy-handed but that is not the intention.
I will conclude by giving an example of the Minister's philosophy of education. She spends approximately £690 on each pupil in a national school, approximately £1,183 per head on post-primary students and about £3,163 per head on students who attend third level institutions. The Minister would say that the very young children aged four, five or six are vulnerable and innocent and she would spend a long time discussing their needs. The amount of money spent on such children as compared with that expended on older students shows that while the Minister has a philosophy she is not delivering on it. Unfortunately time constraints do not allow me to develop that point, but I will return to it another time.
(Wexford): I wish to share my time with Deputy Michael Ahern.
Is that satisfactory? Agreed.
(Wexford): I will not be over-critical of the Bill presented by Deputy Higgins. He has put much effort into drafting the Bill and I am aware that he has a genuine interest in education. I do not agree with a number of provisions in the Bill, but any Bill relating to education must be welcomed as giving us an opportunity to debate this very important subject and put forward our ideas for changes in the system.
Deputy Higgins could have waited until the publication of the Green Paper on Education. In 1990 the Taoiseach announced the Government's intention to introduce a comprehensive Education Bill and that the first step would be the preparation of a Green Paper. The Minister said last week that the Green Paper is in draft stage and will be published shortly. This will afford an opportunity for detailed discussions and consultations. Apart from teachers and parents, there is a general interest in education among the population. The Green Paper will afford an opportunity to put forward views and ideas before the Education Bill is drafted.
The Bill before us seeks to introduce a system of dictating from the top down, which is completely different from what the Minister has been trying to achieve. She has involved herself in consultations with all interested parties in the field of education. This is the way to continue in the years ahead because it is important that all those involved should participate in the education debate. An example of the Minister's approach was her setting up of the curriculum review body and other educational bodies. Reports have been published which have allowed for wide-ranging debate. The Bill before us seeks to change the direction and to lay down strict criteria and guidelines for teachers and for parent-teacher associations.
Since the mid-sixties there has been a radical overhaul of the education system. The late Donogh O'Malley is credited with the introduction of the free education system. The degree to which the system is "free" has been dictated from time to time by the national finances under different Governments. It must be admitted that there have been tremendous strides in education during the past 25 years and I hope to see continued expansion and improvement of the system. Our young people are generally regarded as highly intelligent and well educated. This is a credit to successive Ministers for Education and to the teachers. Criticism is often levelled at teachers and there will always be a certain number who are not up to standard. At every level, however, we have teachers of the highest calibre and we must be proud of the teaching profession. It is recognised worldwide that our students are top class.
I should like to see changes in the higher education grants system. In the sixties third level education was largely the preserve of the élite. That has changed and there are large numbers of young people attending universities and other colleges. The problem regarding grants must be tackled seriously. Families with one or more children cannot afford to send them to third level colleges if they do not get a grant. The PAYE sector are severly penalised with regard to grant allocations. The self-employed are seemingly able to get around the system and it is certainly questionable how some of them qualify for grants. It would seem in certain cases that their income would be above the qualifying level. The PAYE worker is stuck with his P60 and if he has a few bob over the limit he does not qualify. I welcome the statement in the new Programme for Government that where more then one child is attending a third level college consideration is being given to a different system of qualification for grant or scholarship. I ask the Minister to introduce that system as quickly as possible to enable many more people to qualify. Nobody should be denied the right to third level education because he or she is slightly over the qualifying limit.
I wish to refer to the present system of assessing eligibility for grants. At present gross income is taken into account in assessing eligibility. Sure it would be fairer to take into account the take home pay of people from which tax and PRSI has been deducted? A case can be made for taking net pay into account in assessing eligibility for grants in the future.
Another issue which needs to be looked at relates to school books. This has probably been flogged to death but it is important that the Minister takes into account the high cost of school books which seem to have escalated out of all proportion. In many ways this has become a national scandal. Of course, the publishers are creaming off the profits and getting rich at the expense of the less well off in our society. The time has come for the Minister to call in the publishers and tell them that the frequent changing of school books is not acceptable and parents cannot afford to keep buying new school books. When I was attending school, books could be handed down to younger brothers and sisters. That does not seem to be the case any longer. The frequent changing of school books is putting a major burden on families. I hope the Minister will shortly have discussions with publishers so that this problem can be resolved.
Recently the Minister announced a significant increase in the number of teachers assigned to schools in disadvantaged areas. Like Deputy Browne of Fine Gael, I ask the Minister to take rural areas into consideration when making these assignments. Many of those teachers seem to have been assigned to schools in Dublin, Cork and other major centres of population. I do not have any problem with this but there are many disadvantaged areas in rural Ireland which require such teachers. For example, many housing estates with an unemployment rate of 75-80 per cent could be classed as disadvantaged and this could lead to many problems. I should like the Minister to assign more teachers to schools in disadvantaged areas of rural Ireland.
The Minister for Education, with the Minister for Labour, recently announced the extension of the Youthreach programme to enable early school leavers to avail of courses. One such course is starting next week in my home town of Enniscorthy. Up to 30 young people will be able to avail of this course which is under the control of County Wexford Vocational Education Committee. I would like to see this worthwhile project being extended to other urban areas so that young people who, through no fault of their own, left school early, can pursue courses which will give them extra qualifications and help them secure jobs. Young people who left school at 14, 15 or 16 years of age have little chance of securing jobs. Statistics show that people who sat their leaving certificate examination or attended third level colleges have a better chance of getting a job than people who dropped out of school at 14 or 15 years of age. It is important that the Youthreach programme be extended to cater for as many young people as possible.
I should like to refer to some sections of the Bill. Section 10 states that a teacher means a person holding a valid teaching licence. Perhaps Deputy Higgins will clarify this provision when he is replying to the debate tomorrow night. I do not know how he intends teaching licences to be operated. That provision does not seem right. Will teachers have to pass some kind of test? If they are not up to scratch, will their licence be endorsed or will it be withdrawn for one, two or three years. If that happens, will they be able to return to teaching? I should like the Deputy to explain what this provision entails.
The Bill also provides that the posts of principalship and vice-principalship of each school shall be filled by a board of management of that school on the basis of merit of each applicant for the post. That is the position which obtains at present. Is Deputy Higgins saying that some teachers got their jobs otherwise than on the basis of merit? Generally speaking principals and vice-principals are of the highest quality and I hope it is not being implied that there is some problem with these appointments. I know many principals and vice-principals and I have not heard any complaints about them or their ability to teach.
Section 13 provides that the Minister shall, by way of regulation, make provision for codes of conduct to be observed by all students. I am not sure that one can legislate for conduct by students. While guidelines in this area have to be laid down for teachers, conduct can be described in many ways and teachers have their own way of dealing with misbehaviour by students. This may involve imposing a severe penalty on the student or just talking to him. Discipline should be left to the discretion of the teacher concerned rather than providing for rigid codes of conduct in legislation.
Generally speaking there is a discipline problem in many schools. I may be old fashioned but I believe discipline has gone from one extreme to the other. When I was going to school, pupils who stepped out of line usually got a few belts of a strap or, as one Christian Brother used to call a big six foot stick he had, the board of education. Today teachers are at a disadvantage in that if they even shout at a student usually the mother or father visits the school the following day threatening all sorts of action against the teacher. It is very difficult for teachers to operate any code of discipline within schools at present. In many cases parents have adopted a soft attitude to discipline of their children. My sympathy lies with the teachers, both primary and secondary, who have to maintain discipline in schools. The Minister needs to seriously consider how this problem can best be tackled. I have no easy answers to this problem but discipline has gone from one extreme to the other; while it was too harsh when I was going to school it is too simplistic nowadays. This is causing many problems within schools.
In conclusion, I should like to refer to a matter which is near to my heart, and I suppose the hearts of many Deputies, the quality of education for mildly and severely handicapped children. Institutions such as St. John of God House, Foley House and St. Patrick's Special School in my home town of Enniscorthy have a particularly good record in this area of education which tends to be forgotten in our overall education system. I appreciate that the Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, and the previous Minister for Education, Mrs. Gemma Hussey, allocated substantial grants to schools in Enniscorthy for the provision of facilities for handicapped children. It is important that any education Bill provides specific allocations for the development of accommodation and educational facilities for mildly and severely handicapped children. At present those who provide this education have to rely mainly on voluntary subscriptions and the goodwill of people. It needs to be put on a proper footing and I would hope that any new education Act would include that. As I said earlier, I do not agree with Deputy Higgins' Bill but it has given us an opportunity to debate education in this House, and that in itself is a good thing. I hope the Green Paper will be before this House soon when we can have a further discussion on the whole education system and how to improve the quality of education for our future children in this country.
In putting forward this Bill Deputy Higgins and the Fine Gael Party are jumping the gun because they are aware that a Green Paper on education is due, but they decided to get some publicity by publishing this document — I would not call it a deeply considered document. As other parties in the House have been bringing Bills forward, Fine Gael felt they had to get in on the act and Deputy Higgins duly brought forward this measure.
This Bill makes no provision for consultation. Since 1987, when we assumed office, we have shown the importance of consultation. When there is a consensus between the unions, the employers, the Government and all the other interested parties, great strides can be made. The Teachers' Union of Ireland regret that there was no consultation with them before the publication of this Bill. That consultation provision is lacking in Deputy Higgins' Bill and is, perhaps indicative of the attitude of the party to which he belongs.
This Bill gives us an opportunity to discuss education. We have only a short time in which to discuss it in Private Members' time, but when the Green Paper is published I am sure we will get much more time to discuss it. Education is of vital importance for our children. If they do not get a proper education from primary level upwards they will be at a disadvantage for life. We have a very sound education system at primary, secondary and third levels but we must always be ready to adapt and change. This Government and every Member of the House want to ensure that our education system does not remain stagnant but that it will improve and give our young people more information to prepare them better for the years ahead.
In the fifties and up to the mid-sixties, when most of us here were educated, the majority of the population enjoyed only primary level education and the late Donogh O'Malley and the Fianna Fáil Government introduced free secondary education. In those days the three Rs — reading, writing and arithmetic — were drummed into people. We have had a change in education over the years and perhaps those basic subjects were pushed into the background. Sometimes I wonder whether more emphasis should be placed on those aspects of education.
Nowadays, teaching computer skills is vitally important. In my national school, pupils in high infants, first, second classes and upwards are being taught about computers. Various languages — French, German, etc. — are now being taught in national schools. This is very important and it should be more formalised because in the years ahead we will have to compete more and more on the European scene; therefore, our children should be taught the languages of Europe.
The success of a school nowadays depends on co-operation between teachers, management and parents. Television is so all pervasive that it can make the life of a teacher impossible. Very good teachers can spend all their time in the classroom but if students do not attend to their studies, much of that good work is undone. It is important that parents realise the importance of their role in the education system, and this is something that will have to be stressed. What the Minister for Education has done by involving parents and agencies in primary and post-primary education is very important. It shows that the Minister and the Government realise the importance of parents becoming involved in the education process.
An area which needs to have more importance placed on it is that of remedial teaching whether in inner city, outer city or country schools. There are many pupils who require special attention. Even though 80 or so extra teachers were appointed to the remedial area this year, there is still room for more. I am glad the Government recognise this need and that they have provided extra resources for that area this year. I would urge the Minister to continue to recognise this need. The pupil-teacher ratio is important also. Both at primary and secondary levels the Minister has provided extra teachers: for example, 250 extra teaching posts at secondary level and 325 at primary level. This is an area the Govenment will continue to address.
I disagree with the part of the Bill dealing with central control. In Ireland we tended to put too much control into central Government. Central control stifles the entrepreneurship of the local school principals and teachers. I could not agree with that. School principals must be given more autonomy. If teachers were to comply with the rules put forward in this Bill, it would be a retrograde step for those schools, and that would not be acceptable. The Bill is welcome in that it has given us an opportunity to say a few words with regard to education, but at the end of the day it is a narrow Bill. It adds nothing further to the education system. It was brought forward in order to gain a few scores before the White Paper comes out.
With the agreement of the Chair, I wish to share my time with Deputy McCormack.
Acting Chairman
Agreed? Agreed.
I regret the ungracious manner with which the Minister for Education and the Fianna Fáil Deputies received this Bill. Such was the ungraciousness that it bordered on vindictiveness and this is a sad thing when we are talking about education which is the concern of all Irish people. Surely elected representatives should use their combined wisdom and experience, ideas and ideals to work for our children and for the future of Ireland. Like any Bill, this Bill can be improved. Can any Deputy point to any Bill that was not improved on Committee Stage? This Bill is no different but the Government party's ungraciousness extended to the point where they were not able to praise the major part of the Bill which would be good for the Irish education system.
My namesake, Deputy Ahern, just said that Fine Gael were jumping the gun. That certainly is not true. The Deputy remarked that an education Bill promised by the Minister for Education is due. It is not due. It is overdue to such an extent that we on this side of the House concluded that the idea had been aborted. We did not jump the gun. It is not new for this side of the House to introduce Bills. We moved a Bill on foreign adoptions which was adopted in the House and our Bill on vocational education resulted in the Minister writing to all the Vocational Education Committees to ensure they will do what we proposed in that Bill which was to have representatives of teachers and parents on our Vocational Education Committees. I would remind members of the Govenment that Bills moved on this side of the House resulted in action by the Government and that is what we intend to have as a result of this Bill — action by a Minister and a Government who have been so tardy in addressing this important matter. We have been so successful in the past we are determined the Government side of the House will act in this case.
The Education Bill, 1991, introduced by my colleague, Deputy Jim Higgins, is about one thing which has not been recognised, the pursuit of excellence in Irish education. While we have been served well by a fine and worthy education system, nevertheless, the time has come to put our education system on a sound legal basis.
In producing the Bill, Deputy Higgins considered the broad structure of our present system and he ably established where the need now lies for change and progress, as well as how best the considerable achievements of the past can be built upon. I am glad he was not discouraged by the enormity of the task to be faced — nor did he see himself with a mission to achieve a total revolution of the system. Instead, Deputy Higgins produced a Bill, well balanced between the strengths of the present system and the needs and demands of the newer generation. I congratulate him on a tremendous achievement.
We can be proud of our education system. The standards attained are respected worldwide, but all aspects of education policy must be reviewed to ensure its relevance to our time and to update its procedures and structures as necessary.
This Bill is a response to these needs. Its major strengths are in addressing the pressing needs of education today — its commitment to boards of management, to a curriculum review body, to ensure that we have good and competent teachers, to supply the much needed resources in the form of in-service training courses and advice, and to help the staff in our schools to achieve their full potential. The Bill also endorses the importance of parental involvement and it has many other fine aspects.
In section 4, I welcome the call for a report on external assessment by external examiners of the standards and educational objectives achieved in Irish certificate examinations, by comparison with standards in equivalent examinations in other European countries. This is a very important step forward. It is a recognition of the fact that we are in the EC and in the interests of our children and our country, we must extend our horizons to educational changes and standards in other European countries. If, as a result of this section alone, we compare ourselves to other Europeans, we realise just how incompetent we are in the teaching of European languages in our schools then this section will have done a good job. We must quickly give recognition to this serious vacuum in our education today and the resources must be provided for the teaching of foreign languages from primary school upwards.
I was alarmed to find that when some primary schools were prepared on their own initiative and from their own resources to provide for the teaching of French and German it was difficult to get recognition for this initiative and to get permission from the Department of Education. Despite the views of the majority of our teachers and educationists that it is necessary to introduce children at primary school level to European languages, no positive step has been taken to date to try to rectify this deficiency. This Bill will play a unique role in steering our educationists towards preparing students for participation in the European workforce. Whatever about saying that our children should move abroad, that they should get experience and that we can benefit when our graduates return from abroad, why are we so tardy in giving our students the most important prerequisite they need in order to join the European workforce — competence in European languages? It would be in the interests of Irish education if immediate resources and finance were made available and if steps were taken to ensure that at least one European language is taught in our national schools.
Section 5 refers to the provision of in-service education for teachers. This is an area of our education provision that has been grossly overlooked and seriously ignored. Retraining and continuous updating is vital for teachers confined to a classroom for over two decades. We must recognise that the focus of teacher training during the next decade will be on the professional development of teachers already in the system. Because of the recent decline in our population the influx of new teachers into our teaching staff has greatly declined. For innovation, for change and for expertise we have to rely on the present teaching staff. In order to ensure updating and renovation in our education system we must seriously consider in-service training for our teachers. The recent review body on the primary curriculum, the report of the Primary Education Review Body, and the recently published OECD report, emphasised the need for continuous in-service educational opportunities for teachers if they are to keep in touch with a rapidly changing environment and prepare young people for a life beyond school.
The recruitment of new teachers in our educational system is not in decline. The problem we face now is how best to renew the skills and sustain morale in the existing teaching force. Yet little or no effort is made in the Department of Education to provide in-service training. The only in-service initiative for primary teachers has been in the form of a one week course in summer. Such courses are frequently once-off courses unrelated to the work of the school staff.
At secondary level in-service training is even worse. It was only after several demands from the teachers and their unions that the present in-service training is now being provided for the junior certificate. It is not sufficient for the Department of Education just to provide in-service training courses for adapting to a new syllabus. In-service training should be geared towards adaptation and revising the art of teaching which will have long term consequences. They are needed to advise and guide teachers in the light of the social changes our country is experiencing. In-service courses are necessary to recharge the batteries. Without them our educational system will be run on worn out resources.
Deputy Higgins is to be congratulated on focusing our attention on the necessity for a serious, positive approach on the part of the Department to in-service and continuous education for our teachers.
I welcome the call for recognition of parent associations in both primary and post-primary schools. The role of parents in education is of paramount importance if our education system is to be successful. A national parents council, as recommended, would be an important forum through which these important voices can be heard. The Constitution states that the parents are the primary educators of our children, yet our education system succeeds in keeping parents on the side line. For too long parents have been called upon by our schools only to raise finance and to run school functions totally unrelated to the essence of education. That is an important role for parents. Nevertheless they should have a say and have an important role to play in education at all levels. When there are changes in our education system it is not sufficient just to relate those changes to our teachers and the principles of our schools. All changes in our education system should be related to the parents because, while children spend six hours per day at school, it is with their parents at night that they have to cope with what our education system demands of them. There is no recognition of the interest parents may have in this area. It is regrettable that we have not kept parents more in the front line of education reform.
One area where parents should have a major role is in career guidance. In many homes it is the parents who try to find out what is best suited to their child. It is the parents who write away and get all the background information. If it is to be worthwhile, any career guidance service should include parents because young people making such a major decision about the future will discuss it with his parents.
It is a pity we do not use television to inform parents about what is happening in education today. This would not alone help our education system but would help to re-educate parents and keep them totally informed and interested in our education system.
The Bill also provides that each school will produce a regular progress report. I welcome this because it will enable us to see how schools are advancing in honouring any commitments they have made as well as providing a record of their achievements. This will in turn help schools to redefine their targets for the coming year.
Section 6, which deals with boards of management, will give authority to individual school units. This is welcome because it is at this level that day-to-day matters can be dealt with sensitively. The local community can readily identify with the boards of management. This Bill sees the boards of management as the basis of a partnership of interests, the interests of teachers, parents and local people all helping to make the school in any community a focal point. This will result in the drawing together of the various interest groups so that the collective wisdom, experience and strength can be pooled together to provide an efficient and effective service.
Section 7 provides for the establishment of a curriculum review board for the purpose of undertaking a periodic review of the curriculum in primary and post-primary schools. This is welcome in a rapidly changing world of new technology, increased organisation and basic changes in industry, agriculture and business which have closed off many traditional careers and opportunities while opening new ones. The review board will turn old problems into new opportunities.
As we all realise, appropriate education is the key to economic success. We must always support change within our educational system. We must continually monitor what is taught and how it is taught to ensure that it conforms to the needs of the present generation.
The Government parties have tried their best to tear this Bill asunder. They have tried to find fault with it in every aspect. In a major effort to undermine the Bill one night last week Deputy O'Donoghue spoke at length about third level education grants, as did Deputy Browne tonight. I agree with every word he said about the inequities in the third level education grant system. In what they said tonight they are supporting every proposal in the Fine Gael policy document produced last June aimed at solving the inequities in the higher education grants system. On behalf of this side of the House, I thank them for such support. However, Deputies O'Donoghue and Browne will face the same problems in regard to these proposals as we did on this side of the House. They will face the reluctance of the Minister for Education to do anything about it. Sadly, we have failed to persuade the Minister to take any steps to deal with the injustices in the higher education grants system.
Perhaps, at a time when the views of backbenchers are more important than they have been hitherto, Deputies on the other side of the House will be able to persuade the Minister to support the Fine Gael proposals. I should like to remind Deputies O'Donoghue and Browne that in order to remedy the injustices in the higher education grants system which mitigate against the PAYE sector and low income earners, we do not need an Education Act; we do not need any Green Paper or a White Paper. We need just one thing, a Minister for Education who cares about students who cannot afford to go to college, a Minister who agrees with equality of opportunity and, above all, a Minister and a Government who are prepared to do something about it.
We have the richest of heritages. We have come through a complex and turbulent history to a point where Ireland commands considerable respect on the world stage. Countless people proudly trace their ancestry to this small island whose outreaching influence is quite out of proportion to its size. In this Bill, Deputy Jim Higgins has encompassed the entire primary and post-primary sectors of education. I appeal to all Members to support the Bill.
Debate adjourned.