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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Nov 1991

Vol. 413 No. 3

Regional Technical Colleges Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I have several points regarding the Regional Technical Colleges Bill that I should like to make before I finish my speech. Before Question Time I talked about the colleges covering links with industry in relation to the research programme and consultancy programme named in the Bill. It is most important that that programme be afforded the priority it deserves in that it will have far-reaching implications for the regions where the colleges are located, for the colleges themselves, for the people living within those regions and the progress that can be made within those regions. It has much potential which must be nurtured by the Department of Education, public representatives, teachers, lecturers and so on. Also its implications are enormous for regions where unemployment is at quite horrific levels, but the State will have to contribute the necessary funding to render such projects worthwhile. It is one thing to aspire to an ideal but quite another to ensure it works in practice. The only way this specific ideal will work in practice is if it is adequately funded. There must be such financial incentive given to the colleges, and business people who want research undertaken and so on.

Sligo Regional Technical College, in my constituency, has undertaken excellent work in recent years. For example, a course in tourism initiated in that college has been very successful. There is also an exchange programme with a college in Germany which has proved quite successful. This clearly demonstrates that if the Regional Technical Colleges are willing to become involved in such exchange programmes German and Irish industry can interact and much progress can be made.

We have been told by a number of Government Ministers that tourism is the saviour of the west. To some extent that is true but it is an important industry for the nation as a whole. The fact that Sligo Regional Technical College has taken the initiative in an educated approach to tourism is excellent but they must be financially supported in their research and consultancy undertakings. If not that programme will not be successful. While it is a nice ideal, unless adequately funded it will not work in practice. We must remember that tourism has so much potential for areas such as Letterkenny, Tralee and Dundalk, regions in which Regional Technical Colleges are located. They endeavour to provide various courses in their respective regions. We must remember also that when research is undertaken in those regions the regions benefit.

Section 5 (1) (d) reads:

(d) subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine to enter into arrangements with other institutions in or outside the State for the purpose of offering joint courses of study and of engaging jointly in programmes of research, consultancy and development work in relation to such matters as the governing body of the college considers appropriate;

At present Regional Technical Colleges do not have links with any of the colleges in Northern Ireland. That is a pity, especially in the constituency I represent, where there are many links, personal and educational across the Border. For example, many of Sligo Grammar School who have completed their second-level education have gone forward to third-level in Northern Ireland. Scope for such liaison could be provided in the Bill.

Section 6 deals with the membership of the governing bodies allowing the colleges an opportunity to become truly regional. For example, subsection (4) (b) reads:

(b) if the region served by the college includes all or part of the functional area of one or more than one vocational education committee other than the vocational education committee in whose functional area the college is situated, the Minister may direct that one or more, but not more than four in all, of the persons to whom paragraph (a) relates, shall be nominated to the vocational education committee by such of those other committees as the Minister may specify;

It would be my hope that subsection (4) (g) also would be taken into account and given prominence, thereby providing a useful framework for regionalisation of the scheme.

Students attending regional technical colleges should be entitled to the same assistance as students attending, say, UCD, UCC, UCG and Trinity College, Dublin which, as of now, unfortunately, they are not. There should not be that differentiation drawn between the different third-level institutions. For example, if students want to pursue a technical course at third-level they should be given the same assistance as their counterparts following an academic course at a university, which is not the case at present.

A number of different interest groups have made submissions about the provisions of this Bill. I realise it is extremely difficult to accommodate all the submissions and viewpoints advanced. Nonetheless the Minister should do his utmost in this respect because some very valid points are included in the submissions and representations. The Minister should endeavour to marry these in the hope that the implementation of such valid recommendations will make this a better Bill. As a member of Leitrim Vocational Education Committee I am aware that the IVEA lobbied strongly and made a number of important points in relation to the provisions of this Bill. For example, they suggested an amendment to section 11 — which deals with the selection of officers and servants — contending that the word "only" in section 11 (8) be deleted and substituted by the phrase “inter alia”. That would clarify who was the employer of such officers and servants.

Section 14 deals with the annual report and information. Here the IVEA amendment suggests the deletion of the words "with the agreement of the Minister" in section 14 (2) which would allow for reporting directly to the vocational education committees, who have responsibility for regional technical colleges, and give an element of local responsibility to elected representatives of the statutory body, in that they would continue to report to the Minister. It is vital that the regional aspect of the Regional Technical Colleges is taken into account and that public representatives are given a say in their running.

The final point I wish to make is in respect of section 16 which deals with accounts and audits. The IVEA amendment suggests the deletion in section 16 (1) of the words "with the agreement of the Minister", similar to what they proposed in relation to section 14 (2), allowing financial reporting to the relevant vocational education committees. Again, that gives elected representatives local responsibility which is the essence of regionalisation.

In his absence I should like to convey my good wishes to the new Minister for Education. In passing, I should like to congratulate the outgoing Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, on the fine job she did in education, its development over the past four years and, indeed, previously as a spokesperson on Education. All sides of the House have acknowledged that she brought a fresh approach to education and to many of the problems confronting us in that field over the past decade or so, leaving a fine legacy.

The most welcome aspect of the two Bills before the House is the fact that they will give legal status to our regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technologys, undoubtedly enhancing their position, not merely in terms of Irish education but also within the wider European context. The legislation will provide the necessary legal framework within which these colleges can operate and clarify some issues that may have been the subject of difficulty in the past.

I pay tribute to the Regional Technical Colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges for the marvellous work they have done since their establishment over 20 years ago. I pay this tribute not just as a public representative but also as a former teacher and career guidance counsellor. In that role as guidance counsellor I had contact with many of the Regional Technical Colleges, but Dundalk and Athlone were the ones with which I was most familiar. I had very many contacts also with the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges in Dublin because of their proximity. I have the height of praise for the staff and management of these colleges. They were very professional, committed and dedicated. They had an open and flexible approach to the needs of students and the needs of people in their regions. They were adaptable and willing to change and experiment with various courses. In all this they never lost the human touch, which is probably the most vital ingredient in education at every level. The most sophisticated techniques and ultramodern state of the art equipment assist in the education process but can never replace the human factor.

The approach of the Regional Technical Colleges is exemplified for me in Dundalk where they take an individual interest in the welfare of each of their students. Deputies from all parts of the country have the same thing to say about each of the Regional Technical Colleges. In Dundalk when courses are completed every effort is made to place students. These efforts begin during their final year. Strong ties are maintained with the local community, business people, manufacturers and industry and this close relationship has helped and has often led to the placement of students. It ensures that a ready pool of expertise is available to the college and to the students when required.

While the human touch has not been lost by the colleges, they have expanded rapidly over the past 20 years. The number of students has increased by over 200 per cent in the Regional Technical Colleges and in the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges enrolment has doubled. The colleges have also increased the numbers and types of courses as rapidly as the demand has arisen. Many of the colleges anticipated that demand and met it almost immediately. This rapid response was possible because of the local democratic base from which the colleges operated. Because they were close to their local communities and because of the close links with local business and industry, the colleges were able to anticipate needs and respond. This has been the secret of the success of the colleges and in this context we have to look at these two Bills.

We have to ask whether the Bills before us will build on that fine tradition, enhance the adaptability, flexibility and responsiveness of the colleges to local needs. Will the Bills enable these colleges to become more deeply bedded in their communities and more responsive to the needs of those communities? Sadly, I do not think they will. The Minister stated in opening the debate that the aims of the Bill were, first, to strike a reasonable balance between greater freedom and autonomy for the institutions in their day to day operations while maintaining strong vocational education committee links and, second, to enable research, development and consultancy to take place on a legal basis. I will deal first with the second point.

There is no great legal argument about the fact that a simple amendment to the 1930 Vocational Education Committee Act would achieve the aim set out by the Minister as contained in section 5 of the Bill. The need to allow the colleges freedom to carry out research and development and consultancy work is not in question. It is a practical and essential response to the position which has evolved over the past 20 years. It is simply a recognition of a de facto situation.

It is important to note that the research and development and consultancy work carried out by colleges currently has arisen in spite of the Department rather than because of any assistance from them. I have serious reservations about the wording of section 5 because I see in it the heavy hand of the Department of Education. I see interference, the posiblity of interference and the right to interfere in this area being taken upon themselves by the Department of Education. Instead of helping the colleges, as the Minister undoubtedly intends, I see grave dangers that once the Bill is passed officials in the Department will see this as their entrée to begin laying down rules, regulations, guidelines etc. which will stifle initiative and enterprise and choke off any serious research in these colleges.

It is noteworthy that when the colleges were being set up the Department sought to restrict the colleges and to prevent them from entering the areas of research and development and consultancy. It seemed that the basic concept was to provide technical education and that the only research would be merely problem solving. The colleges were to act basically as laboratories for universities. Despite that restrictive approach, the colleges have expanded and research and development and consultancy have thrived. I fear that section 5 will have a detrimental effect on that progress. I would ask the Minister to look again at the section and to remove the heavy hand of the Department and let the decision on these matters rest where it should, locally with the vocational education committee and with the college managements.

The second aim outlined by the former Minister was to strike a reasonable balance between greater freedom and autonomy for the institutions in their day to day operations while maintaining strong vocational education committee links. There is no doubt that the colleges need and should have greater autonomy and freedom. While I have not heard any great complaint about lack of freedom or autonomy heretofore in this regard, there are undoubtedly many improvements which could be made to allow greater freedom on a day to day basis. It is vital that each college should have maximum freedom to make day to day decisions which are necessary for the smooth operation of organisations as complex and varied as the colleges.

I challenge the view put forward by some people within the Department and within the colleges, most notably the principals, that the present governing and administrative procedures have inhibited growth and expansion. I have already outlined the growth in student numbers and courses available over the past 20 years and particularly over the past five years. It has been extraordinary, particularly in view of the enormous financial constraints faced by the colleges. The existing governing structures have served the colleges well because they allow for local and regional participation. They allow the colleges the flexibility to respond and change in the face of local and regional needs. They also allow for participation by all the social partners in the region. The structures proposed would leave less power with the board of governors, less power with locally elected representatives, would allow less academic freedom and less flexibility in responding to changing demands in local communities. There are of course bureaucratic difficulties inherent in the system at present, but the proposed system will not solve these. If anything, it will increase the bureaucracy because of the regulatory mechanisms the Department will have to put in place. I have my own experience of the procedures of the Department of Education in relation to primary and second level education. I know how slow and cumbersome they can be. Anybody who thinks that direct control by the Department will lesson bureaucracy is not living in the real world.

The former Minister for Education referred to the need for colleges to maintain strong links with the vocational education committees. I regret that these Bills will not do that. They will diminish and almost break the link with the vocational education committees. The only functions the vocational education committees will have will be to act as trustees for the land and property of the colleges, to pay superannuation to the staff and to nominate people to the governing bodies. It is clear that the vocational education committee link will be almost non-existent. This is a serious mistake. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this issue seriously before Committee Stage. I suggest that the Minister should consider holding off Committee Stage until he has had time to fully consider the measures in the context of the Green Paper.

The reality is that under these Bills all the major decision-making will be centralised in the Department of Education. Practically all the provisions in the Bill are preceded by phrases such as "subject to the approval of the Minister" or "on consideration by the Minister". The role of the vocational education committees and the democratically elected public representatives will be almost totally removed. This will be detrimental to the development and expansion of the colleges. I would have no difficulty with the Minister for Education having all these powers if he had time to exercise them. However, as we all know he will not have time to do this. Therefore, we have to read the word "Minister" in the Bill as "officials of the Department". I have no wish to impugn the integrity of these officials who are dedicated, committed and carry out their duties in an exemplary manner. However, they are not elected by the public or directly answerable to the public or responsive to the public needs; they have a different perspective and a different role to play.

These Bills will do nothing for local democracy. Down through the years we have heard many expressions of support for the concept of local democracy. Every party in this House claims to be committed to local democracy but regularly in this House we pass legislation which is a direct negation of the whole concept of local democracy and local accountability. We regularly talk about decentralisation. Again, most parties in the House support that concept. However, decentralisation is not just about shifting 200 or 300 civil servants to some provincial town; decentralisation should be about shifting power from the centre to the regions.

The regional technical colleges were one of the best examples of decentralisation. Indeed, I would venture to say that they were the only real example of it in the history of this State. With their foundation, provincial towns and cities were renewed and reinvigorated, local economies were boosted, employment was provided directly in the colleges and ancillary services and local businesses boomed. The arrival of the student population gave a fresh injection to the local economy and those who provided accommodation prospered. There was also a decentralisation of power in that these institutions were under the control and direction of the vocational education committees and were accountable to them. In this way they were accountable to the local communities and regions which they served. Because the colleges were directly answerable to these communities they showed more flexibility and adaptability than any other educational institutions.

I want to contrast the flexibility of the Regional Technical Colleges with the lack of responsiveness by the university sector to the rapidly changing society in the Ireland of the sixties, seventies and eighties. While I concede that the universities have become more responsive over the past decade they should have responded to the changes in Irish society much more effectively prior to that. I believe their structures and approach prevented them from doing this. It is not good enough to argue that they were constrained at that time by statute or regulations. If the Regional Technical Colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology adopted the same attitude as the universities then their syllabi would have progressed very little and would have mainly consisted of part-time technical courses and apprenticeships.

As I stated previously, local democratic input was vital in the development and expansion of Regional Technical Colleges. It is absolutely vital that this input is maintained and strengthened. For that reason I again appeal to the Minister, in considering these Bills either in the context of the Green Paper or the Committee Stage debate, to restore the vocational education committees to their rightful place in the Regional Technical Colleges scheme of things. I believe these Bills pander to the wishes of a small but powerful minority, including some principals of the regional technical colleges who see an enhancement of their status in the Bills and the opportunity to rid themselves of the shackles of local democratic control and accountability. I believe this small minority is supported by highly placed officials in the Department who are anxious to regain control of the success story of Irish education over the past two decades.

No doubt these people regard these Bills as the first step in the process of moving Regional Technical Colleges away from their roots in the local communities and technical education. I fear that part of this process would lead the Regional Technical Colleges to introduce a more academic type syllabus which would be less responsive to local communities, businesses and industry. Such a move would lead to a greater concentration on more academic pursuits and a lessening of the role they must play in maintaining their status as centres of excellence in the provision of technical and vocational education. I have no doubt that most of these people are pursuing their agendas which have more to do with their status than with the continuance of democratic accountability at regional technical college level.

I am also aware that many of these people look with disdain on many local councillors, some of whom may have little formal education but who have an input into the thrust and direction of education policy. It is totally unacceptable to these people that anyone other than academics should have any say in educational policy. However, these people fail to realise that there have to be checks and balances in any democracy; institutions have to be answerable to the public and respond to local needs and public opinion. This public opinion is generally articulated by public representatives, both local and national. For all their faults and failings, they generally reflect the views and, more importantly, the needs of the people. The vocational education sector has succeeded better than most in articulating the opinions and views of the general public. They have responded well to the needs of their communities. The regional technical colleges have benefited from this local democratic input and any attempt to diminish it should be considered very carefully. These are regional colleges and they are there to serve the needs of the regions, not to conform to any preconceived ideas which some official in the Department might have.

The committee who originally prepared the brief for the colleges made the following recommendation: "If they are to make their most effective contribution to the needs of society and the economy they must be capable of continuing adaptation to social, economic and technological changes. Initiative at local and national levels will largely determine how far this vital characteristic will develop". The success of the colleges has proven the wisdom of that approach. I again appeal to the Minister to reconsider the provisions in the Bill relating to vocational education committees.

A point that needs to be underlined is that the funding and resources made available to Regional Technical Colleges should be increased so that they get a larger slice of the educational cake. Section 6 (4) (e) of this Bill provides that there may be one student representative on the governing body of the college. Perhaps the Minister would consider changing it to two student representatives, specifying that one of either sex be included.

The Bill is welcome in that it gives legal status. I have some reservations which I have expressed. I note that the Minister in introducing the Bill indicated that a flexible approach would be adopted by her during Committee Stage, and I look forward to that particular section.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking to both of those Bills which are being taken simultaneously and, essentially, do one and the same thing. The regional technical colleges, in the eyes of many people, are the last hope for the regions of Ireland and, in particular, for the west. The regions of Ireland are dying slowly and surely, and inexorably the population graph is downwards.

Apart from a brief period of resurgence in the late sixties and the early and mid seventies, every single census of population signals rural decline. Indeed, the preliminary results from the 1991 census indicates that the west has only two centres showing any signs of growth at present, Sligo and Galway.

The Minister of State was present, as I was, in Galway two weeks ago at the western bishops conference, where the theme was "survival through togetherness". We saw in very graphic terms the downward spiral, the inexorable decline, the rampant decay in the west and the fact that there is absolutely nothing on the horizon that would signal an end to that. Somebody from my own county, many years ago, wrote a book entitled Nobody Shouted Stop, and nobody has shouted stop thus far to the decay and the death of the west.

A drive through the most selected tracts of rural Ireland — indeed, through any tracts — will give a stark and vivid reminder of the decline and the decay. There are closed homesteads, dilapidated and abandoned farms, substandard and worsening road conditions, railway lines being ripped up, secondhand sleepers being used which are taken from the lines in the east, untended drainage channels, tumbledown derelict closed rural schools, and broken or non-existent sign posting. As a peripheral, region Ireland would always have tremendous disadvantages and enormous competitive challenges. As remote regions within Ireland the entire western seaboard will face particular challenges. However, the entire suction movement towards the centre is now very much accelerated by the passing of the Single European Act which provides for the completion of the internal market by the end of 1992. Rapid movement towards political union and economic and monetary union all increase the pace of events and certainly increase the challenges facing rural Ireland.

I know that politicians and EC officials will inevitably counterbalance the argument of the challenge by pointing out that while there are challenges there are also tremendous opportunities opening up for Ireland. However, the challenge and the threat is there. It is real and we have not even begun to face up to it. The challenge is that we are now part of an integrated Europe with a market of 340 million people; the challenge is that economically weak regions like Ireland will not be able to erect any protective barriers from now on; the challenge is that in such a competitive situation economic cannibalism prevails. Marketplace competition is the order of the day and only the fittest and most resilient will survive.

If the regions of Ireland have continued to decline under the more benign and protected economic climate up until now, there is absolutely no doubt but that Ireland as a whole and as a region — and particularly the regions within Ireland — will all become increasingly marginalised unless there is a calculated, immediate political decision to transfer from the Community and from the centre the necessary physical and human resources and the infrastructure to enable survival and development to occur.

Apart altogether from the inherent dangers of peripherality, this country will face even stronger competition within the next five years. The European centre for precision engineering was Czechoslovakia until it went into economic decline; crystal glass, tool making etc., were Czechoslovakian specialities; Romania was a huge operator in the agricultural field and a major producer of food; and Poland and Hungary were large extremely efficient industrial and commercial nations.

The economic decline in those countries and recent political developments all have given rise to what is but a temporary recession and setback. There is little doubt that as soon as these countries get their administrative, fiscal, productive and legislative systems up and running again and geared towards the modern Europe, they will be major competitive players on the larger European commercial map for the future. Within five years the full brunt of their competitive edge will be felt. It is obvious, therefore, that the economic centre of gravity will move very much to the east, again exacerbating Ireland's geographical and economic disadvantage.

One of the problems with Ireland is that we have failed to identify, to act upon and to exploit our areas of advantage. The Institut for Wirtschaftsforshung of Munich identified positive factors where Ireland does possess real economic advantage: the very modern telecommunications network, the general availability of labour, the availability and quality of education and training facilities, the favourable social climate, and the abundant availability of skilled labour. It is obvious, therefore, that we in Ireland should be concentrating on our areas of strength. In other words, we should be concentrating on the development of people's skills, their aptitudes and abilities. This is where education and particularly vocational education and technical education comes in and where the role of regional technical colleges will have to be further enhanced.

When the member states embarked on their policy of European integration it was recognised that one of the main purposes of this integration, cohesion, strength, or unity was to strengthen the capacity of the EC in science and technology. Science and technology is the area where there has been the greatest partnership between education and industry. It is business enterprises and industry which transform science and technology into economic and social progress. The role of the regional technical colleges is to translate their work into viable long term jobs and higher living standards.

Higher education and industry therefore must act together and must be more responsive to the general needs of the society surrounding them. We have in the regional technical colleges, strategically positional throughout the regions — in Letterkenny, Sligo, Athlone, Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Dundalk and Waterford — tremendous potential economic incubators and generators. That is why I welcome the general thrust of this Bill. It liberalises the colleges. I empathise with some of the sentiments of Deputies Dempsey and Boylan in that I agree that there should be a stronger linkage between the vocational education committees, the regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology. I do not accept the argument that the vocational education committee structure has been the constraining influence in relation to the development of the regional technical colleges or the Dublin Institute of Technology. Rather, any constraint that has been put on them in relation to their development, any stultifying of their potential, has arisen more from a lack of resources than from any management structure that currently exists.

I appreciate that there is a natural desire on the part of the Regional Technical Colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology for greater autonomy. I appreciate that in the eyes of some Regional Technical Colleges, vocational education committees are essentially second level management structures unsuited to the management of third level institutions, but I exhort the Minister on Committee Stage to look again at the possibility of strengthening the links between the vocational education committees and the new college structures. I take the points made in various submissions we have received from vocational education committees and the IVEA that they should not be blamed for the so-called limitation of the development of the third level colleges until now. It should be possible to accommodate both aspirations, to give them greater autonomy and still retain a somewhat stronger modicum of the vocational education committee input that exists at present.

I welcome this Bill because it enables the colleges to enter partnerships, to involve themselves in joint ventures, to get involved in commercial research and development, which has been very much part and parcel of the success of our universities since the universities were founded and particularly since the universities began to show some entrepreneurial flair and adventure in the general area of business, science and research. This Bill will allow the colleges to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the area they should be able to harness the strengths of the area and project an outward dynamic movement into the community — in other words, to breathe economic life into the community, to breathe hope, confidence and development into the regions. Do people expect too much from the regional and technical colleges? I do not believe so. They have the potential, the capacity and the ambition to deliver. We as legislators must do everything to encourage them at official level to face the challenges and to grasp the opportunities there; but if they are to face the challenges they will have to be given the resources by the Government and the European Community.

We have a very strong case for additional European Community funding, but the case has not been sufficiently strongly put at Commission level to achieve the necessary consciousness at EC level in relation to the obligation of the Community to this country by way of additional educational funding. This country has become the educational conveyor belt of the European Community, supplying top level graduates of certificate, diploma and degree level to feed the enterprise, the business and the economies of the stronger European Community countries. There is additional social funding and structural funding for the colleges if the case is strongly put. If we are to develop on our strength, which is our human resource, there is a obligation on the Community to recognise that with adequate funding for third level colleges so that every pupil coming from second level education will have an opportunity to go to third level college if he or she wishes. To date the colleges have not been given the resources. The real economic and social convergence within the European Community to date has been only minimal. We are fed on an ample diet of jargon in relation to convergence, integration and cohesion; but the success rate so far has been minimal in real terms.

Our living standards are only 67 per cent of the average of the European Community, yet our unemployment rate is double the EC average. In 1980 Irish living standards amounted to 64.5 per cent of the EC average measured in GDP terms. Despite all the talk of progress, this had only advanced to 67.3 per cent of the EC average by 1990. On the unemployment front Ireland, with 18.6 per cent of the workforce unemployed, has the highest unemployment figure in the European Community. Ireland is the only member of the European Community which had not recovered its employment level of 1980 by the year 1990. Ireland has to immediately seek specialisation in industrial and commercial areas where we can compete on an international scale.

If we are to develop as a country we need education at the highest level, education involving the development of people who have the skills and abilities to produce goods, to successfully market those goods, to produce services and to successfully market those services at home and abroad. We need to create a generation of people who can generate a spirit of enterprise in the general community, a generation who see economic opportunities and who have the confidence to exploit those opportunities. We need to see education as the dynamic which will encourage enterprise, which will encourage motivation in people who in turn will motivate other people to create more jobs. We need an education system which will encourage people to be innovative, to be versatile, to be flexible in their approach to problem solving. Quickly changing patterns also mean that there is an urgent need for emphasis on lifelong upgrading of skills and knowledge.

One of the biggest economic growth areas in the whole area of internationally traded services such as finance consultancies etc. is the third level sector, including the regional technical colleges. These colleges should continue to place emphasis on all areas of development such as data processing, computer servicing, education services, architectural and engineering consultancy work, etc.

Again, areas such as the greatly underdeveloped food industry, horticulture, forestry, mining and mineral exploration, the marine, inland fisheries, etc. are wide open for development and exploitation. I could envisage the regional technical college for Mayo — promised, but not delivered on by this Government — placing a major emphasis on something that is indigenous to the region, for example, tourism, with facilities based around language and cultural development, agri-tourism, adventure tourism, business tourism, etc.

At this juncture let me congratulate the new Minister, Deputy Davern, in his absence. I wish him well for the duration of his term of office as Minister for Education. We will suspend judgment on his performance until we see how he measures up. We have a full appreciation that in taking on the Education portfolio he is taking on one of the most challenging, if not the most challenging, most complex and most costly in terms of cost to the Exchequer of all of the portfolios. We wish him well in that.

As a Tipperary man he will also come under pressure to deliver the long promised regional technical college for Thurles. My colleague, Deputy Lowry, will be waxing lyrical and exhorting the Minister in a suitable direction later or when the debate resumes.

There are three priorities in terms of regional technical colleges — Tallaght, Thurles and Castlebar. Tallaght is a reality. Thurles and Castlebar are far from realities.

When Deputy Enda Kenny was Minister of State and sat where Deputy Fahey now sits, he told Dáil Éireann that he was very happy that a site had been acquired in Castlebar for a regional technical college and he did so on the assumption that, irrespective of who donned the mantle of Minister for Education, that would be delivered upon.

Would you deliver on it now?

Given your leader's cutbacks on public expenditure?

It is a commitment I would put my head on the line for and I would be very foolish not to, just as in the case of Knock Airport.

I know you would and you would get it chopped off because you cannot have it both ways.

There is overwhelming justification for both those regional technical colleges. I would make the point that County Mayo has the third highest participation rate in third level education in the country. Every September- October 3,200 third level students leave County Mayo by bus or train to go to the universities and the regional technical colleges or to go overseas. There are over 250 people from Mayo in third level colleges either in the North or overseas. We have a very high participation rate. We have an outstanding case for a third level college. I believe it should be the catalyst for growth in the county and in the region. I cannot see that it should pose a threat to Galway, Sligo or Athlone. I would make the point that there are ample specialist faculties that are not catered for in existing third level colleges and which would find a fertile home in County Mayo. Let me exhort Minister Davern to fulfil the other two-thirds of that promise and deliver a college to both Thurles and Castlebar. There is no need to say but that he will have the full support of this side of the House in that regard.

Some of the regional technical colleges have already done quite a substantial amount of work on tourism. They have identified certain areas that need experimentation and possible growth and development and they have been providing a lot of stimulating ideas in relation to what can and should be done. But there is a lot of work yet to be done.

The regional technical colleges celebrate their 21st birthday this year. I want to pay particular tribute to those who pioneered them, particularly the steering committee on technical education, and to those people in the technical instruction branch of the Department of Education who had a clear vision and an unwavering conviction that technical education in Ireland deserved a more rightful place than it enjoyed at that time. These are the people who saw the need for a new deal for technical education and the urgent economic necessity of providing technically competent and skilled people to meet the challenges of the decade ahead. The steering committee report, published in 1969, was a short, crisp, business-like document. It turned down what it saw as the liberal arts concept of the new college which was proposed by the Commission on Higher Education at the time and it made a firm pronouncement on the enormous potential of vocational education and the intention that the new colleges should proceed in that direction. Thankfully, the sceptics at the time — and there were many — and those from the world of academia who thought that it would not and could not succeed, were proven wrong. By any standards the regional technical colleges have been an enormous success.

One of the biggest achievements of the regional technical colleges and their sister colleges in the Dublin Institute of Technology has been their central role in providing greater access to third level education. They removed a lot of the mystique and a lot of the elitism that surrounds third level education. Their opening up to people who heretofore have been disadvantaged because of their social background or their remoteness from the centres was a major step forward. Their capacity and potential to contribute in a very significant way to economic and technological development was soon realised and students began to flock to them. They were no longer seen, as they were initially, as the poor man's university.

However, despite the huge influx, there are still major imbalances with under-representation from the lower socio-economic groups. There is a marked lack of involvement by the adult population. Finally, the non-participation of females in certain faculties, such as engineering and technology, will have to be addressed.

All the areas of third level education — certificate, diploma and degree level activities — will have to be opened up to far greater numbers of people. If we believe that education and training are to play these vitally important roles in the development of a united Europe we must channel more resources into investment in people, investment in their skills and investment in their creativity. One of the most notable features of the regional technical colleges has been the fact that they have provided a national network of third level colleges integrating with each other, interlinking with each other, complementing each other and allowing the all important facility of transferability from one college to the other. However, there is an obvious need to open up greater dialogue and liaison with the conduits between the regional technical colleges and the Irish university system. I appreciate that this does exist but, again, only to a minimal or limited degree. Each of them, in particular the universities, will have to recognise and accept each other's qualifications.

We also need to recognise educational credits. If somebody gets part of a course, be it 20 per cent, 30 per cent, 50 per cent or two thirds, they should be entitled to a credit irrespective of where they go throughout the educational world. It should be seen as part of their educational baggage and they should be able to use it as a means of entering another third level college or, after a period be able to take up the course at the point they discontinued it initially. We have got to create a common currency of educational achievement transferable between all institutions to enable people involve themselves in education as an ongoing lifelong process.

No words of praise could adequately express the achievements of the six Dublin Institute of Technology colleges. They have been the pioneers of third level technical education but, unfortunately, they have never received anything like the recognition they deserve in terms of accommodation and resources. Kevin Street College of Technology, for example, is 104 years old, Bolton Street College of Technology was founded in 1912 while the College of Commerce in Rathmines have their operations spread throughout several buildings.

In visiting any one of those colleges one gets the impression that they are not perceived at official level as having the same entitlement to resources or funding as the universities. If one visits the College of Commerce in Rathmines one will find that there is the main building, a red brick building which has been leased nearby and several other halls scattered the length and breadth of the Borough of Rathmines. This is unbecoming for a college which has given tremendous and unstinting service to the third level commercial sector during the years.

As I have said, these colleges have been the pioneers of technological advances and have involved themselves in experimentation and projects which eventually led to very fruitful commercial ventures in the real world; yet, unfortunately, when it came to prioritising funding these have always been seen as the poor relation by comparison with the universities. A good example of this is that in relation to measures Nos. 1 to 5 of the Structural Funds the universities received £99 million whereas the regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges received a mere £2 million despite the fact that they teach almost 50 per cent of the total student complement at third level, with 24,000 students comprising 8,800 full time students, 10,000 part time students and over 5,000 apprentices and craft technician students. I pay particular tribute to them for providing apprenticeship and craft technician courses.

If there was ever a time to carry out a major reappraisal of where we are going in the area of craft technician and apprenticeship training it is now because such training is virtually non-existent. I am talking here in particular about the semi-State bodies, such as CIE, Bord na Móna, the Air Corps, Aer Lingus and Telecom Éireann. When Telecom Éireann formed part of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs there was a large influx of people from vocational schools with the group certificate or a higher certificate, and they were trained to the highest possible standard but now because of economic exigencies and demands these agencies no longer provide the number of places they once provided. As a result the question of training has been left to FÁS.

As a person who has made numerous unsuccessful representations to FÁS to get people onto apprenticeship courses I can testify to the fact that people with tremendous manual skills and ability are working in breakers' and builders' yards in Great Britain because they cannot circumvent the system or meet the requirements and demands made. I am talking here about sponsorship. Because of commercial pressures the vast majority of would-be sponsors cannot afford to sponsor an apprentice given the cost involved, on average £5,000 between board and lodgings, tool kits, travelling expenses, public liability insurance, etc. As a result places are being filled by people who have the ability to circumvent the system. They provide employers with the form which is merely stamped and then sent to the FÁS centre. In essence, it is the parents who are paying FÁS.

The FÁS operation should be taken and shaken from top to bottom. If there is one area of semi-State activity which is in urgent need of re-examination it is the FÁS operation which is gobbling up huge resources without in many cases giving good value for money. I therefore pay tribute to the colleges for providing on an annual basis up to 5,000 craft and apprenticeship places.

In the ten years since 1981 the number of full time students has doubled, from 4,000 to 8,000. If we take part time students and apprentices into consideration we are talking about 24,000 and the number continues to grow. However, the facilities are a major constraint on further development. It is a mark of the commitment and resilience of the staff that they have achieved so much in what one could be forgiven for describing as slumland third level facilities. There are literally no staff facilities with 20 staff per room. The per capita grant in respect of each student is approximately £1,000 per head which, again, lags way behind the figure for the universities.

If one imagines what these colleges could and would have done had they been given £11.7 million which was politically targeted for Carysfort College, and compares Kevin Street and Bolton Street Colleges of Technology and the College of Commerce in Rathmines with the palatial surroundings of the universities one gets the impression that the grim hand of bureaucracy and politics set out deliberately to stifle their growth and expansion.

One of the reasons I welcome the Bill is that I anticipate it will enable the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges to challenge the system and realise something like their true potential. Up to now they have never had the benefit of sponsorship or joint ventures despite the fact that there are glaring opportunities for such developments. Indeed, in the past they have had to turn down numerous lucrative and attractive offers because of the constraints on what they could and could not do. A good example is the offer made to Kevin Street College of Technology to establish a micro-electronics park there. This subsequently went to University College Cork by default. The college because of the constraints upon them could not avail of the offer.

I welcome the legislation, therefore, because it will enable the enterprise and the entrepreneurial flair which is present, but stunted, in the colleges to be used untrammelled. However, I want to see the Minister give a commitment that these colleges will now receive the resources they so badly need, but have been denied, to achieve the ambitious targets they have set for themselves.

During the years the Dublin Institute of Technology qualifications, certificates and diplomas, have been recognised internationally by educational and professional employers, the trade unions and other organisations operating in the commerical sphere.

Debate adjourned.
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